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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-02-11

---Logopened Sat Feb 11 00:00:40 2017
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02:52<@Alberth>hi hi
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03:54<Wolf01>Moin
04:10<@Alberth>o/
04:11<Arveen|Home>moin moin
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05:16<andythenorth>such
05:20<Wolf01>o/
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09:07<supermop>yo
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09:25<@Alberth>o/
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09:35<Dakkus>The construction of the 39 tile long wooden bridge over the baltic sea concluded on 18th March 1900. It is expected to very efficiently reduce the load on the congested Helsinki-Talinn ferry line.
09:36<Eddi|zuHause>sounds realistic
09:38<Dakkus>Indeed it does.
09:38<Dakkus>Obviously Tallinn is the biggest city in Europe.
09:39<Dakkus>The Valga/Valka twin city, the second largest urban area, is a third saller than Tallinn.
09:39<Dakkus>smaller*
09:40<Eddi|zuHause>so, what's actually up with the names Tallinn vs. Reval?
09:40<Dakkus>The age of the city.
09:40<Dakkus>Just like London wasn't originally called London.
09:41<Dakkus>And Cologne wasn't originally called Köln or Cologne.
09:41<Dakkus>Etc.
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09:42<Dakkus>At some point everyone was calling the city Tallinn and then they apparently decided to make it official. If I've understood it correctly.
09:43<Eddi|zuHause>well, i don't know about "everybody", but i still learned about the city under the name of Reval in the 90s
09:43<Dakkus>Then, to add to this, the German language has retained the old name.
09:43<Dakkus>But since the city is known as Tallinn in all other languages, many Germans call it Tallinn as well.
09:44<Eddi|zuHause>and it
09:44<Dakkus>Might have something to do with Estonia and Lavia having been practically part of Germany from around year 1200 to year 1700.
09:44<Eddi|zuHause>'s also called Reval in my game of Europa Universalis IV
09:44<Dakkus>Yeah, because that takes place a long time ago.
09:44<Eddi|zuHause>where it's obviously owned by me (saxony)
09:45<Dakkus>Try moving it to Denmark. Might change its name :)
09:45<Dakkus>EU IV does this - shows different names depending on the ruling realm.
09:45<Eddi|zuHause>there's not going to be a denmark in my world :p
09:45<__ln__>wikipedia implies Reval is the german name for Tallinn
09:46<Eddi|zuHause>not while the von Wettin family controls the strong holy roman empire :p
09:46<Eddi|zuHause>Wettin, btw. is like 10km that way -->
09:46<Dakkus>In the east?
09:47<Dakkus>That's where your arrow is pointing.
09:47<supermop>the arrow is pointing north on my screen
09:47<__ln__>it's clearly pointing west
09:47<Eddi|zuHause>yes, east.
09:47<Dakkus>supermop: See, your screen is incorrectly set up.
09:47<Wolf01>North easth here
09:47<Wolf01>East
09:47<Dakkus>Good correction.
09:47<Dakkus>Now everything is fine.
09:50<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: Tartu oder Dorpat?
09:50<Eddi|zuHause>Dörpt?
09:51<__ln__>also possible
09:51<__ln__>Pärnu oder Pernau?
09:52<Eddi|zuHause>don't know where that's supposed to be
09:53<__ln__>western coast of estonia
09:53<Eddi|zuHause>not all areas are represented on this map
09:54<Eddi|zuHause>estonia is represented by 3 provinces Narwa, Reval and Ösel (east to west)
09:54<__ln__>"Die Stadt wurde 1251 vom Deutschen Orden gegründet, die Ordensburg um 1265 erstmals erwähnt. Pernau wurde Mitglied der Hanse"
09:54<Eddi|zuHause>at least, those are the provinces of estonian culture
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10:07<Dakkus>Eddi|zuHause: Pärnu/Pernau might be a town within one of your territories.
10:07<Dakkus>At least that's how it goes in CK2.
10:08<Eddi|zuHause>Dakkus: sometimes the translation is a bit off, when they changed the names of provinces to names of towns in english, they didn't always apply that same change to german
10:09<Eddi|zuHause>also, the province borders don't always match modern borders
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10:09<Eddi|zuHause>so half of modern estonia is actually in the livland territory
10:10<Eddi|zuHause>and has latvian culture
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10:36<Dakkus>Eddi|zuHause: Well, in reality it had neither Latvian nor Estonian culture, but Livonian.
10:37<Eddi|zuHause>well, "culture" is a bit loose term in EU4
10:37<Dakkus>Why?
10:40<Eddi|zuHause>well, they occasionally made some odd choices which don't always make sense
10:41<Eddi|zuHause>like riga being prussian culture
10:42<Eddi|zuHause>while all surrounding provinces are of latvian culture
10:42<Eddi|zuHause>and then prussian is not in the baltic culture group, but in the german
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10:43<Eddi|zuHause>i mean, sure, it was the teutonic order ruling there, but did that really have an effect on the people living there?
10:46<Eddi|zuHause>especially the culture groups are a bit arbitrary, sometimes just two cultures being close by get put into one culture group
10:47<Eddi|zuHause>like basque being in the spanish culture group
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11:16<Dakkus>Eddi|zuHause: Basque?! :D
11:17<Eddi|zuHause>the basque people live in northern spain and southern france
11:17<Dakkus>Eddi|zuHause: Also, the situation in Riga was such that the city did indeed function mainly in German.
11:17<Eddi|zuHause>like, where the name biscaya
11:18<Eddi|zuHause>comes from
11:18<Dakkus>The Latvian language and culture did coexist with German there, but was secondary.
11:18<Dakkus>The countryside, then again, was almost purely Latvian-speaking.
11:19<Dakkus>Latvia and Estonia were very peculiar in how their populations were divided into poor local-speakers and rich Low-German speakers.
11:28<Eddi|zuHause>(... also where the ETA terrorists come from)
11:31<Dakkus>That's a bit of a stereotype O.o
11:31<Dakkus>Also, I could understand the Bay of Biscaya thing, but can ETA exist in EU IV?!
11:31<Dakkus>I didn't think their roots are that far in the past.
11:36<Eddi|zuHause>well, the basque people lived there since before the roman times...
11:36<Eddi|zuHause>of course ETA itself is newer than that
11:37<Dakkus>Indeed, and that's why I find it weird that they would be grouped together with the Spanish.
11:37<Dakkus>That's just ridiculous.
11:37<Dakkus>But what does ETA have to do with this?
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>nothing, just that they were fighting for basque independence (or whatever)?
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11:38<Dakkus>Hey... I've played OTTD for like 12 hours today, feel a bit too stressed for OpenXCom and Widelands refuses to function on my computer. What should I play? :)
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>how can you play ottd for "only" 12 hours and then ask such a question?
11:39<Dakkus>I am weird.
11:39<Dakkus>But, I've been playing OTTD for 12 per day for, well, long enough.
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>i've registered like 1900 hours in EU4 and haven't finished one single game
11:39<Dakkus>:D
11:40<Dakkus>Sounds familiar :D
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>my current game is in 1788, about 30 years to go trying world conquest... but it takes foreeever
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>i'm a bit too micromanage-y
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11:45<Dakkus>:)
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12:08<Snail>hey guys, I’ll be trying to compile OTTD with Mac OS Sierra right now...
12:08<Snail>anyone already managed to do so?
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12:26<Snail>hey Andy
12:38<andythenorth>lo Snail
12:39<Snail>hey, I read your message from last December about compiling OTTD on Sierra
12:39<Snail>have you ever had a chance to try?
12:40<Eddi|zuHause>hey, my suez canal is done, but it didn't even tell me...
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13:03<andythenorth>Snail: no I don’t have Sierra yet
13:03<andythenorth>chicken / egg
13:03<andythenorth>can’t upgrade OS X if OpenTTD doesn’t work on it
13:03<Eddi|zuHause>i think i'm playing this game wrong, many of my vassals have bigger names than me...
13:03<Snail>andythenorth: heh, got it
13:04<andythenorth>but to comply with ISO 27001 (it’s a work computer) I’ll have to upgrade OS Xsoon
13:04<andythenorth>so eh
13:08<Eddi|zuHause>and your iso 27001 allows you to have openttd on it?
13:09<andythenorth>it’s a managed risk
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13:39<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause: love eu4
13:39<Sacro>Trying to wipe out the french, or the ottomans
13:39<Sacro>Or ... the stupid annoying HRE
13:40<Eddi|zuHause>i wiped out the french just now
13:40<Sacro>Poor baguette
13:40<Sacro>My current game is france
13:40<Sacro>Mostly pushing northwards through England
13:40<Sacro>And hoping to become emperor
13:40<Eddi|zuHause>working on the ottomans for the last century or so, you just can't bite enough off it fast enough :(
13:41<Eddi|zuHause>not sure how to become emperor as france, better by diplomacy or by vassalizing some electors?
13:42<Eddi|zuHause>the advantage of becoming emperor as saxony is that you can vote for yourself :p
13:54*andythenorth should play a game
14:07<Wolf01>I just finished to play a game... I fucked up fallout 4, my last save was 13-game hours ago about at the start of the entire DLC
14:07<Eddi|zuHause>does it not autosave?
14:08<Wolf01>Yes, that's why I fucked up
14:09<Wolf01>You have 3 autosaves, but I used them all up while fast travelling between Commonwealth and Nuka World...
14:10<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause: being friendly to electors, I had 4 voting for me for a while
14:11<Sacro>But then austria built up IA and that gives +1 opinion per IA
14:11<Sacro>So until the first reform I was stuck behind
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>you can stack diplorep, that gives like +10
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>and concentrate on the electors that hate austria the most
14:13*andythenorth needs a cargo to deliver to trading posts in Steeltown http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#steeltown
14:13<andythenorth>it could have one processing step, or be produced directly
14:13<andythenorth>it must not require ENSP
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>but you don't need to become emperor that early
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>if you manage by the 4th reform or so, that's fine
14:13<andythenorth>and it must not require much of anything from the steel chain :P
14:14<andythenorth>it could be a novelty cargo
14:15<andythenorth>slate? o_O https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slate_industry_in_Wales
14:15<Eddi|zuHause>actually, don't concentrate on the electors that hate austria. it's better if the votes that don't go to you are split
14:15<andythenorth>needs ENSP :P
14:15<Eddi|zuHause>then you only need 3 electors on your side, if the other 4 are split 2/2
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14:36<markasoftware>andythenorth: is that some modded thing?
14:37<markasoftware>the steeltown?
14:37<andythenorth>it’s in FIRS
14:37<andythenorth>add-on / mod / newgrf / DLC / whatever ;)
14:37<andythenorth>supermop: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Ohio#Agriculture
14:38<andythenorth>“Ohio ranks 1st in the production of Swiss cheese”
14:38<andythenorth>:P
14:40<@Alberth>slate falls nicely in the era that you play :)
14:42<andythenorth>it does
14:42<andythenorth>but I need something that doesn’t require ENSP :)
14:52<andythenorth>probably ‘cheese'
14:57<Eddi|zuHause>isn't ohio like the "milk belt"?
14:57<+glx>I think it is if my memory is correct
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15:23<andythenorth>dairy farm -> dairy -> cheese -> trading post
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15:51<supermop>yes
15:51<supermop>eddi no
15:51<supermop>there are some nice small craft cheeses from ohio and plenty of local dairies
15:52<supermop>but it is not nationally known for dairy in the way that minnesota and wisconsin are
15:53<supermop>if it makes the most 'swiss' cheese its not anything famous or remarkable
15:53<supermop>even inside of ohio
15:54<supermop>when I go home to visit my parents there I don't seek out any local cheeses the way I do almost anywhere else
15:55<andythenorth>hmm
15:55<andythenorth>I need some cargo
15:55<andythenorth>could just do goods
15:55<andythenorth>or glassware
15:55<andythenorth>kind of blah
15:55<andythenorth>or I could reverse alcohol, and make it export, not import
15:55<supermop>ohio had some early 20th C glassware that was sort of well known
15:56<supermop>we do brew plenty of beer in ohio too
15:56<supermop>as do the other lakes states
15:56<andythenorth>doesn’t have to be ohio, just seems an obvious place to look for inspiration
15:56<andythenorth>standard grain -> beer?
15:56<andythenorth>nothing unusual?
15:56<supermop>sure
15:56<andythenorth>I don’t have MNSP and don’t want it :P
15:57<andythenorth>but the brewery needs it
15:57<supermop>Columbus has a large historical german brewery district from pre-prohibition
15:58<supermop>today has a huge industrial AB brewery and ton of craft breweries. most lakes state cities are the same
16:00<supermop>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worthington_Industries
16:00<supermop>propane tanks
16:04<supermop>does it need to be a chain that uses no steel?
16:04<supermop>also beer needs beer cans
16:04<supermop>make mnsp from alu
16:04<andythenorth>preferably no steel
16:04<andythenorth>alu is gone, it’s weird
16:06<supermop>alu for beer cans only
16:08<andythenorth>could be cans + goods
16:08<andythenorth>if I come up with nothing else, I’ll try it
16:09<supermop>I mean I spent better part of 20 years in ohio and I don't know what else to suggest
16:09<supermop>we do have car plants
16:09<andythenorth>so does Steeltown :)
16:09<supermop>proctor and gamble chemicals/soaps
16:09<andythenorth>yeah, soap I looked at
16:09<andythenorth>comes from animal or vegetable fat
16:15<andythenorth>seems goods -> trading post easiest
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16:20<supermop>most farms in northern/western ohio seem to primarily grow grain
16:20<supermop>mostly corn
16:21<supermop>some soy beans too
16:21<andythenorth>think goods -> trading post works fine
16:22<andythenorth>shame limestone can’t be dredged, there are no sea-based industries
16:22<supermop>we get it out of big holes next to the Scioto river
16:23<supermop>no one wants anything dead or alive that was pulled out of lake eire
16:23<supermop>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belden_Brick_Company
16:23<supermop>had a key chain from them as a kid
16:24<supermop>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_J.M._Smucker_Company
16:25<supermop>for ohio could make vacuum cleaners
16:25<supermop>'hoovers'
16:25<andythenorth>yes :)
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16:26<supermop>the hoover factory is now hip lofts though
16:26<supermop>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marion_Power_Shovel_Company
16:27<supermop>now i'm just spamming historic ohio manufacturers
16:28<supermop>maybe there is something in fine chemicals
16:28<supermop>or goods made from fine chemicals
16:28<andythenorth>there is, but I need the chemicals :)
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16:29<supermop>great lakes area does need fields to fill the space between towns
16:29<supermop>and the produce of those fields must go somewhere
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16:35*andythenorth wonders about water industries
16:35<andythenorth>fishing is out, needs MNSP
16:40<supermop>why is this bluebird in england?
16:40<supermop>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Bird_Corporation#/media/File:Blue_Bird_TC3000_of_First_Essex_in_Braintree.jpg
16:42<andythenorth>import :)
16:42<supermop>but why
16:42<Eddi|zuHause>but why not?
16:42<andythenorth>dunno, novelty value?
16:42<andythenorth>should I draw this limestone quarry? http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/nwitimes.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/d/bd/dbd459f2-f067-5321-ac4a-ccab13056982/55bab7c39e16e.image.jpg
16:42<andythenorth>it’s so geometric
16:43<Eddi|zuHause>some people collect butterflies, some people collect foreign busses
16:44<supermop>that one seems to be in use as a school bus
16:44<supermop>that quarry looks a bit boring
16:44<supermop>the foreground one
16:45<Eddi|zuHause>some years ago i saw a bit on TV where a guy wanted to import an american school bus, but then couldn't get it licensed here because the fire exit doors were not up to german specifications
16:46<supermop>Eddi|zuHause an old one?
16:46<supermop>the ones I rode as a kid seemed like something out of the 30s
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>are there ever "new" ones?
16:47<supermop>I think they are cycled through quite rapidly these days, but they still build them with those riveted sheet steel sides
16:48<supermop>and the do have more exist now, and apparently air conditioning
16:48<supermop>exits
16:49<supermop>seems to be they go 1) rich suburban distric/large urban district 2) poor suburban / exurban district, 3) private charter company 4) sitting in someone's front yard who lives in a rural area
16:50<supermop>5) eccentric European's project?
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>i think 5 overlaps with 4
16:55<__ln__>i've seen a genuine american school bus over here, with temporary license plates indicating it had been recently imported from abroad
16:57<supermop>why people like those things i'll never know
16:58<supermop>nothing but memories of being car sick etc
17:03<__ln__>there's apparently one that has been converted into an annex of a restaurant: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-W0-B3vw-1bo/VJSOpsc-wQI/AAAAAAAACQ8/5N846S_pLcI/s1600/Blog_21.12%2B(14).JPG ... but i don't think this is the one i saw, so there's probably another one too.
17:05<andythenorth>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Student_UK
17:10<andythenorth>non-ferrous metals -> coin mint -> coins -> trading post
17:10<andythenorth>:P
17:19<andythenorth>bed also
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17:25<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: europeans only know these things from american movies
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19:07<Wolf01>'night
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---Logclosed Sun Feb 12 00:00:06 2017