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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-02-13

---Logopened Mon Feb 13 00:00:43 2017
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04:34<Wolf01>o/
04:35<crem>\o
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07:17<Wolf01>Bah, hdd fan is noisy, I'll change it
07:17<Wolf01>BBL
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07:19<crem>Isn't it a luxury for a HDD to have a personal fan?
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07:20<Anty>Hi
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07:25<Wolf01>Well... clearly I don't have the spare fan
07:26<Wolf01>The only size it's missing in my trash drawer
07:26<__ln__>the Wolf01 fan club
07:26<Wolf01>Yeah
07:27<Wolf01>http://img.memecdn.com/a-fan-club_o_1220768.jpg
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07:52<Alkel_U3>Well, after another HDD kicking the bucket I gave them a fan, although all four drives have to share. The 20°C drop on them at low rpm is well worth it, I think
07:53<Alkel_U3>but I bought the wrong size, so it's anchored only on 1 screw (I really thought the case supports 140mm but it doesn't)
07:55<Wolf01>The fan I removed was 80mm on a 100mm support, with only 1 screw too, I think it started to make noise because of that
07:56<Alkel_U3>yeah, the pulsing noise from that is kinda annoying
07:56<crem>noise is more important than hdd well-being.
07:57<Wolf01>Let's talk about it, I would like to not download again 1.5TB of steam games if the HDD fails
07:58<Alkel_U3>I had to get rid of a defective jet-engine-like GPU so it's still practically quite in comparison :-)
07:59<Alkel_U3>and I would like to not have to recover the photos directory with ddrescue and testdisk, but that's completely my fault for not backing that up
08:00<crem>steam games (and movies, music, etc, although I think nowadays people don't store them) are not things to be worried about. Losing unique data is worse, but that's what backup is for.
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08:01<Wolf01>That's why I have a NAS and a backup HDD too, but since I have shitty(tm)-connection I would literally take AGES to download some games
08:03<crem>Local backup is more risky than one might think. :) And not only because of things like house burning odwn.
08:03<Alkel_U3>1.5 TB of games? Well, that's a lot. I can see myself topping out at around 600 GB if I were on windows.
08:03<crem>I lost all my local backups once when I divorced. :)
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08:25<Wolf01>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxbDJlruQ-4 DAMn
08:46<Alkel_U3>has it breached already?
08:46<crem>This 'live' thing is from yesterday.
08:52<Alkel_U3>ah, so it hasn't. Well, that's good.
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10:16<Wolf01>Wake me up when the other animal fellows arrive
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10:42<supermop__>is andy an animal?
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10:42<@Alberth>hi hi
10:44<andythenorth>all arrive at once
10:44*andythenorth has Steeltown woes still
10:44<andythenorth>I should call it Steeltown Blues :D
10:45<Wolf01>o/
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10:47<@Alberth>changes didn't work out?
10:49<andythenorth>nah
10:50<andythenorth>I am being cautious because my test games have SV
10:50<andythenorth>but eh
10:50<andythenorth>in all my games, I needed all the mines on the map just to get enough steel for ENSP to boost the mines
10:51<andythenorth>and the boost wasn’t enough
10:51<andythenorth>feeding the blast furnace chain is kind of like feeding a black hole
10:51<@Alberth>:o
10:52<@Alberth>and I haven't even considered supplies so far :p
10:53<andythenorth>the other problem is that steel has multiple destinations :)
10:53<@Alberth>but trains aren't very powerful either
10:53<andythenorth>but cdist doesn’t work well with multiple destinations
10:53<@Alberth>ha :)
10:53*andythenorth biab
10:53<@Alberth>see you
10:53<Wolf01>Wasn't that the goal of cdist?
10:53<andythenorth>no
10:53<andythenorth>not afaik :)
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10:54<@Alberth>I don't really see the problem, it just means you must make a choice where the steel goes to
10:54<Wolf01>Then I should look again at the definition of distribution
10:54<@Alberth>maybe andy just likes having automagic transfer orders
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12:04<@Alberth>lo andy
12:05<andythenorth>o/
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12:13*andythenorth needs to get quicklime without coal
12:13<andythenorth>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#steeltown
12:21<andythenorth>both coal and stone are too contended
12:22<andythenorth>I could increase the industry production rates substantially...
12:23<andythenorth>chemicals is also very contended
12:23<andythenorth>coal: two destinations, both essential to steel chain
12:23<andythenorth>stone: two destinations, both essential to steel chain
12:24<andythenorth>chemicals: four destinations, useful for ENSP chain
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12:31<Wolf01>Quak
12:31<frosch123>moi
12:32<Wolf01>frosch123, I wrote some questions about NRT in SE
12:32<Wolf01>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/p9gqfwiel
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12:35*andythenorth ponders
12:35<andythenorth>could....
12:35<andythenorth>- try and reset the probabilities to give more mines, but likely to fail on small maps
12:35<andythenorth>- cut out the hotels, building yards, stores etc from towns, as they consume a lot of the available industry count
12:36<andythenorth>- make more cargos available at ports (import quicklime? Unrealism, but eh)
12:36<andythenorth>- ignore some realism in required cargos at blast furnace, steel plant
12:39<supermop_>as for last one, isn't bessemer process rivet counting the whole point of steeltown?
12:39<andythenorth>kind of
12:39<andythenorth>but it’s a ballache to actually play, eh? :)
12:39<supermop_>hotel/store etc gets a bit redundant
12:39<andythenorth>lessons in reality never work in FIRS
12:40<supermop_>hotels easy passenger bootstrapping for $
12:41<andythenorth>+1
12:41<supermop_>but then the passenger flow distracts from building up industries because you've got thousands of morons trying to go to a resort on the outskirts of a shitty village overlooking a slag heap
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12:41<andythenorth>could cut the coke oven, it’s wasteful of coal
12:41<andythenorth>8t in = 6t out
12:41<supermop_>steelmaking uses a lot of coal
12:42<supermop_>i'd say burning it in power plants wastes coal that could be making steel
12:42<andythenorth>I could cut food chain, but then Arctic and Tropic are borked
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12:43<supermop_>cutting a chain in steeltown needn't cut in tropic?
12:43<V453000>iz?
12:43<andythenorth>can still use Steeltown in Tropic though eh?
12:44<andythenorth>FIRS economy != climate :)
12:44<andythenorth>V453000: iz mess
12:44<andythenorth>fixing
12:44<andythenorth>also dinner time soon
12:44<V453000>mess is nice
12:44<andythenorth>iz boring to play
12:44<andythenorth>especially with cdist
12:45<andythenorth>cdist max 2 destinations per pickup station
12:45<supermop_>andythenorth: tropic needn't have grocery stores
12:45<supermop_>andythenorth: you can kind of get a few more but its tough
12:45<andythenorth>making >1 pickup stations per industry is hard, when also has big delivery station
12:46<andythenorth>supermop_: > 2 just doesn’t work
12:46<andythenorth>like, not working
12:46<supermop_>max 2 pick up stations per industry is the killer
12:46*andythenorth has tested much times
12:46<supermop_>industry will give zero cargo to 3rd station
12:46<andythenorth>this is all fine if you use ships :P
12:46<andythenorth>ships only = no problem :P
12:46<andythenorth>with trains, problem
12:47<supermop_>industry won't serve 3 docks
12:47<andythenorth>fair point
12:49*andythenorth biab
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13:01<frosch123>Wolf01: https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pdxxmzeds
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13:24<Wolf01>Ok, so in SE it whould be a bland copy of the normal toolbar
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15:19<andythenorth>supermop: drop the hotel? o_O
15:19<andythenorth>it’s kind of a FIRS trademark :P
15:19*andythenorth thinks it should go from steeltown
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15:19<supermop__>from steeltown? who wants to vacation in youngstown
15:19<andythenorth>yair
15:20<andythenorth>businessmen?
15:20<frosch123>people with a secret weakness for steel?
15:20<andythenorth>:P
15:20<andythenorth>or coke
15:20<supermop__>the hotel is nice as a combined blackhole for food and alcohol, but store can do that
15:20*andythenorth can drop alcohol
15:20<supermop__>opiods?
15:20<supermop__>opioids
15:21<andythenorth>coke, slag, heroin?
15:21<supermop__>oxy
15:23<andythenorth>vehicle dealer will never be used
15:23<andythenorth>vehicles can be traded for other things
15:23<andythenorth>no point sending to a black hole
15:24*andythenorth rips it all down
15:27<supermop__>black holes only needed if towns can't process town cargos
15:28<supermop__>even then, if i play a game where gasoline is needed for town growth, i might build a machine shop in town
15:29<andythenorth>so just black holes for food
15:29<andythenorth>and goods, because it’s no harm
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15:31<supermop__>'store'
15:31<supermop__>does both
15:31<andythenorth>yup
15:31*andythenorth waits for bundles to build new docs
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15:41<andythenorth>could run the lime kiln on fuel oil
15:41<andythenorth>saving coal for iron chain
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15:45<supermop__>would be weird in ohio or yorkshire
15:46<andythenorth>yeahbut
15:46<andythenorth>http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Yeah%20but%2C%20no%20but... :)
15:49<andythenorth>eh, the vehicles chain is too intricate
15:49<andythenorth>is it steeltown or motown? :P
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16:11<supermop__>motown=/steeltown
16:20<andythenorth>there will be no other vehicle economy
16:20<andythenorth>so eh
16:20*andythenorth wondering what to cut
16:23<andythenorth>ah building materials
16:23<andythenorth>can go :)
16:23<andythenorth>yay
16:24<supermop__>yeagh
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16:27<andythenorth>more variety
16:27<andythenorth>less blah
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16:37<supermop__>bdmt always feel a bit odd unless a GS is needing them
16:40*andythenorth trying to strip town cargos out of steeltown
16:40<andythenorth>some irony probably
16:42<andythenorth>supermop: vehicles currently require: vehicle parts, powertrain components, vehicle bodies
16:42<andythenorth>seems a bit blah blah
16:43<supermop__>strip the town cargos out from 1970 onwards - when the rustbelt economy collapses and people cannot afford town cargos anymore
16:43<andythenorth>:P
16:43*andythenorth considers ‘abandoned steel plant’ industry
16:43<andythenorth>accepts: crack cocaine
16:43<andythenorth>produces: nothing
16:43<andythenorth>black hole
16:43<supermop__>whoa now crack is too coastal elite for steeltown
16:43<supermop__>meth maybe
16:44<andythenorth>it was mostly smack where I lived
16:44<andythenorth>coal mining towns
16:44<andythenorth>crack was inner-city
16:44<supermop__>thing is - car plant is the one thing where the more complex inputs seem correct
16:45<supermop__>but lots of inputs at the top of the chain is a bit frustrating maybe?
16:45<andythenorth>it is
16:45<andythenorth>very
16:46<andythenorth>need to decide whether to keep marine supplies
16:46<andythenorth>then I know if powertrain is good cargo or not
16:46<supermop__>im sure it was different in the uk, but here it seemed like the whole economy from the atlantic ocean to the missippi - and by extension the nation - from 1930 to 1970
16:46<supermop__>was to make and sell as many cars as possible
16:47<supermop__>everything from design, town planning, financial services, etc
16:47<supermop__>designed to sell cars
16:47<supermop__>other industries existed just to give households enough $ to buy two cars
16:48<supermop__>USSR built tanks and we built sedans
16:48<andythenorth>sounds about right
16:49<supermop__>CAD and NURBS / b splines were developed to make curvy sexy cars
16:50<supermop__>but the game might not satisfactorily reward you enough for making cars
16:50<andythenorth>it’s more just that you can’t get enough inputs to do it :)
16:51<supermop__>steeltown should reduce passenger payment the more successful you are at producing cars, so you destroy the market for public transportation
16:51<andythenorth>the chain is too long and the wastage / split ratios are quite harsh
16:51<andythenorth>so 1000s of tonnes iron / coal / stone go into the chain
16:51<andythenorth>and 200t of ENSP comes out
16:52<supermop__>can you inport car parts?
16:52<andythenorth>maybe
16:52<andythenorth>making the parts is ok, can use rubber and stuff
16:53<andythenorth>but need to split iron -> powertrain and iron -> steel -> vehicle bodies
16:53<andythenorth>or scrap -> steel -> vehicle bodies (but scrap yards are low output)
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16:58<andythenorth>supermop: ‘vehicle bodies’? Or something else? http://www.tatasteeleurope.com/en/products-and-services/services/service-centres/steelpark-auto
16:58<andythenorth>‘body panels’?
16:58<andythenorth>‘pressed steel’?
16:58<andythenorth>‘Galvanised steel parts'?
16:58<supermop__>bodies most generic
16:59<supermop__>are you asking what to call it, or what it should be?
16:59<andythenorth>what to call it
16:59<andythenorth>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressed_Steel_Company
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17:06<supermop__>stamped steel
17:06<supermop__>pressed is fine too
17:07<supermop__>appending 'parts' or 'panels' would be fine too
17:07<andythenorth>think I’ll leave it as vehicle bodies for now
17:07<andythenorth>‘vehicle bodies’ looks similar to ‘vehicle parts’
17:08<supermop__>in melb i would always see adds for jobs as a 'panel beater'
17:08<andythenorth>but ‘pressed steel’ looks like ‘steel’
17:08<andythenorth>so eh :P
17:08<supermop__>which i assumed was someone who operated a hydraulic press
17:08<supermop__>but i liked to imagine as a man beating car panels into shape with a hammer against a wooden form
17:09<supermop__>'stamped panels'?
17:10<andythenorth>maybe
17:10<andythenorth>comes from ‘metal finishing plant’ now
17:10<andythenorth>along with ‘pipe’
17:10<supermop__>im not sure what the official US english term is, but i always think of the machine that forms the panel as a 'press'
17:10<andythenorth>sounds right to me
17:10<supermop__>and the action of forming it as 'stamping'
17:11<supermop__>i never worked in a car factory though so i may be way off base
17:11<supermop__>we call lots of tools 'presses' here
17:12<supermop__>the thing that folds sheet metal is a press brake
17:12<supermop__>put holes in the metal with a drill press
17:12<andythenorth>such pressing
17:12<andythenorth>maybe ‘powertrain components’ has to go
17:13<andythenorth>splitting pig iron might be bad
17:13<supermop__>transmissions?
17:13<andythenorth>currently mostly engine blocks
17:13<supermop__>is getting a bit esoteric/motown specific at that point
17:13<andythenorth>iron + non-ferrous metals = powertrain
17:13<andythenorth>could do without it tbh
17:14<supermop__>i appreciate that there is a distinction between rolled, drawn, and cast products
17:14<supermop__>but idk
17:15<supermop__>cast metal is worth it to see crucibles of molten metal about
17:15<supermop__>if you dont get to see it, not sure it is fun
17:15<andythenorth>currently don’t see it
17:15<andythenorth>also ‘powertrain’ is just ‘vehicle parts’ maybe
17:15<supermop__>IH metal cars?
17:15<andythenorth>yes IH metal cars carry the pig iron
17:16<supermop__>yeah an engine is definitely in the realm of a 'part'
17:16<supermop__>unless parts is specifically headlights and plastic
17:16<supermop__>if it is alternators, should be engines too
17:18<andythenorth>that means all pig iron now goes to basic oxygen furnace
17:18<andythenorth>probably better
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17:40<andythenorth>supermop: stripped it right back http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#steeltown
17:40<andythenorth>should be more fun now
17:41<supermop__>non-ferrous metals just sort of hanging out there
17:41<andythenorth>oops
17:41<andythenorth>forgot to remove that :)
17:46<Wolf01>'night
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17:48*andythenorth also
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---Logclosed Tue Feb 14 00:00:44 2017