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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-02-14

---Logopened Tue Feb 14 00:00:44 2017
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05:02<smoke_fumus>Agora, standing on a plaza. A centerspot of a new city. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/85630519307427840/280999476876017664/unknown.png
05:02<Flygon>EGA OTTD
05:03<Flygon>Er, no, wait
05:03<Flygon>EGA doesn't have those beiges
05:03<Flygon>Trying to draw browns into an EGA palette is like trying to make a Magpie not swoop you
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05:09<Wolf01>o/
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05:42<@peter1138>actually ega had a palette but nobody used it
05:42<@peter1138>https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/df/EGA_Table.PNG
05:43<@peter1138>nothing very beige-like though
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05:51<V453000>._.
05:59<Deactivated>hmm?
05:59<Wolf01>¯\_(ツ)_/¯
06:00<Deactivated>:/
06:04<@peter1138>http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/152434216230?clk_rvr_id=1167869966312&rmvSB=true
06:05<Deactivated>I liek botes
06:06<Deactivated>Anyway enuf of botes, bye
06:06<Deactivated>Have not been having much spare time of late :'(
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08:36<Flygon>peter1138: Yeah. I've been doing artwork within that range for a Master System project (same 6-bit DACs used)
08:36<Flygon>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/DirtyRatKingProject/fairiebuya192pxtestaspectcorrect.png She looks more like an Oompa Looma than a Fuzzy Fairy thing
08:37<@peter1138>non-square pixels are always fun
08:38<@peter1138>and also common when 320x200 was normal
08:38<Flygon>Hahaha, you picked up me having to use those? :)
08:38<@peter1138>heh
08:38<Flygon>256*192 squished into what's realistically a 16:9(ish) space
08:39<Flygon>The SMS really doesn't give you enough vertical resolution. But assume enough overscan (ie. assume the top and bottom 8 lines will be cut off), and you'll get a very nice crop to 16:9 on NTSC TVs.
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09:18<Wolf01>Mmmmh, I'm really tempted to rewrite the split toolbar handling
09:21<Wolf01>arrangable_count = lengthof(arrange_switch) / 2; <- what if is odd?
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09:33<supermop_>hello
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10:21<supermop_>hi Alberth
10:21<Wolf01>o/
10:22<@Alberth>hi hi
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10:52<andythenorth>o/
10:52<andythenorth>‘trona mine’ or ‘soda ash mine’?
10:52<andythenorth>produces soda ash
10:57<@Alberth>no idea :(
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10:59<Wolf01>I have a problem in SE, the tramway toolbar does not open but reuses the road toolbar if it finds it open, also the road toolbar can't change title
10:59<@Alberth>trona seems USA oriented
11:00<andythenorth>yeah
11:00<andythenorth>it is
11:00<@Rubidium>I'd use soda ash mine since it's more generic
11:00<@peter1138>too specific
11:01<@peter1138>for most people "mine" is enough :p
11:01<andythenorth>it’s also usual that the [xyx] mine produces [xyz]
11:01<@peter1138>soda ash minecraft
11:01<andythenorth>ha
11:02<andythenorth>child #1 knows most types of rocks it seems
11:02<andythenorth>due to minecraft
11:02<andythenorth>obsidian, quartz
11:02<andythenorth>never
11:03<@Alberth>ha, "I became a geoligist, as I played minecraft" :)
11:07<andythenorth>‘SODA’ as label?
11:07<andythenorth>or does that conflate with ‘COLA’ :P
11:08<@peter1138>just reserve some labels
11:09<andythenorth>SASH
11:10<@peter1138>i recommend labels beginning with 0x4341 or 0x9787.
11:10<andythenorth>what’s NA2CO3 in hex? :P
11:11<@peter1138>340d823b
11:12<@peter1138>mm
11:12<@peter1138>hmm
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11:18<andythenorth>is it docks?
11:18<Wolf01>Is it SE toolbar
11:19<Wolf01>Better finish current things which might have a lot more possibility of be included in vanilla
11:19<andythenorth>you need to split them, like the in-game toolbars? o_O
11:19<Wolf01>Nah, NRT
11:20<andythenorth>are tram and road toolbars separate in main game/
11:20<andythenorth>?
11:20<Wolf01>Not yet
11:20<andythenorth>all conditional stuff?
11:21<Wolf01>No, they are effectively 2 configs using the same class
11:21<Wolf01>And I think it will stay like that
11:21<Wolf01>But I have some... ehm... problems in SE because it seem to be handled differently
11:22<Wolf01>Once you manage to open the tram toolbar you can effectively build tramways
11:23<Wolf01>If you want to compile, I already committed the base stuff, I only need the last 2 fixes
11:25*andythenorth has pulled
11:25<andythenorth>yes I see the problem :)
11:27<andythenorth>ha FIRS has 84 industries
11:27*andythenorth should delete some
11:28<@Alberth>nah, extreme firs would become playable :p
11:29<@Alberth>although such players probably don't care which industries they get precisely anyway :)
11:30<andythenorth>extreme FIRS :P
11:30<andythenorth>such mistakes
11:30<@Alberth>:)
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11:31<@Alberth>I guess forks still have that economy even if you remove it
11:32<@Alberth>on the other hand, removing is likely more work that it's worth
11:32<@Alberth>*than
11:32<andythenorth>I use it with Busy Bee
11:32<andythenorth>it’s actually acceptable with that GS :)
11:33<@Alberth>I agree :)
11:38<Wolf01>Anime time, I'm a bit reluctant to work today
11:41<@Alberth>hmm, I had a nice goal for extending the line, but what was it again :p
11:45*andythenorth puzzles
11:45<andythenorth>Steeltown is turning into ‘Accurate Industrial Chemicals Town'
11:45<andythenorth>instead of composite ‘Chemicals’ that goes everywhere
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12:11<@Alberth>make a chemicals economy :)
12:11<@Alberth>bit boring industries perhaps, all just tanks and pipes
12:12<Wolf01>You will end up making ECS-like sets one economy for every set, and with all sets combined you will simulate with a good accuracy the R world
12:14<andythenorth>:P
12:14<andythenorth>mostly I am finding that most cargos are better with one source and one consumer
12:15<andythenorth>FIRS tends to multiple consumers, and sometimes more than one source
12:15<andythenorth>is headache
12:18<@Alberth>s/headache/challenge/
12:18<@Alberth>you have to make a choice, or have several such industries :)
12:18<@Alberth>or both :p
12:19<@Alberth>but in general, it doesn't matter where you bring stuff, you always get things to transport :)
12:20<andythenorth>this might be done, ‘for now'
12:20<andythenorth>at least until I play test again
12:20<andythenorth>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#steeltown
12:20<andythenorth>chemicals are the wrong input for the foundry / steel finishing plant
12:20<andythenorth>should be non-ferrous metals for alloying
12:21<andythenorth>but I ran out of ports :P
12:25<supermop_>trying to psych myself up to do some nml-ing
12:27<andythenorth>go on supermop_, do some nml-ing ;)
12:27<supermop_>don't recall how
12:28<supermop_>do you have NRTHOG source i can copy?
12:28<supermop_>might procrastinate by doing real work
12:29<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/road-hog/repository/changes/src/templates/roadtypes_tramtypes.pynml?rev=notroadtypes
12:29<andythenorth>and http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/road-hog/repository/revisions/notroadtypes/show/src/graphics/roadtypes
12:31<supermop_>thanks
12:35<supermop_>if a road grf does not define road there will still be default road, right?
12:40<andythenorth>afaik
12:41<andythenorth>that’s what Road Hog does leastways
12:44<andythenorth>ho, scrap yard can make non-ferrous metals :)
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12:46<andythenorth>bbl
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13:28<Eddi|zuHause>i hate ext2/3/4's "reserve blocks for root" feature...
13:28<Eddi|zuHause>it tells you 2GB free, and suddenly it switches to 0
13:29<Eddi|zuHause>at least it should report these blocks used for non-root users
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13:52<@Alberth>don't query disk space for root :)
13:53<@Alberth>vut iirc, I reduced the size, 5% or so was ridiculous on todays disks
13:53<@Alberth>*but
13:58<Eddi|zuHause>this is my /home partition, root has no business there
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14:05<andythenorth>quak
14:07<@Alberth>hola
14:07<@Alberth>eddi: reduce to 0%
14:07<@Alberth>although at 2GB, you have a problem anyway
14:08<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: yes, i know that. just remind 5-year-ago me to do that
14:08<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: the partition is only like 32GB or so
14:08<@Alberth>buy a new disk :)
14:08<Eddi|zuHause>i have a 6TB raid-5 for the "big" stuff
14:09<frosch123>hoi
14:09<@Alberth>move 32GB, reformat, move back
14:09<Eddi|zuHause>this is the last bit of a 128GB SSD, which has / and a windows partition on it
14:10<@Alberth>so? you can reformat a partition, at least with Linux
14:10<@Alberth>native BSD format is much more fun :p
14:10<@Alberth>no partition table :)
14:11<andythenorth>sometimes 3 outputs per industry would be great
14:11<andythenorth>just to avoid hard thinking :P
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: and then? you'd just complain about 4 next
14:12<supermop_>have a tile that just produces some amount of cargo 3 like a house?
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>supermop_: i don't think it works like that
14:12<supermop_>alternative facts
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>supermop_: and even if it did, it would screw up the whole industry chain display
14:20<@Alberth>:o 342,000 l rubber, normal production :)
14:25<andythenorth>ok, so delivering chemicals is boring / unrealism for http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/industries.html#metal_workshop
14:25<andythenorth>and http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/industries.html#metal_fabrication_plant
14:25<andythenorth>in both cases, non-ferrous metals would be much more appropriate (zinc, nickel etc)
14:26<andythenorth>but I have nowhere to get them from, unless I add the full chains with mines and processors
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14:31<@Alberth>32 industries seems enough to me
14:32<@Alberth>ho, 23 industries
14:32<Wolf01>Quak frosch123, I've worked on the SE, but I have a problem with opening the tram toolbar, it works if the road toolbar is already open, but it won't open it's own, also the toolbar doesn't seem to change data (strings/icons) I've also tried to reinitialize it
14:33<@Alberth>steeltown lends itself more to massive transport than diverse transport, like in a hot country
14:33<supermop_>add molybdenum
14:34<supermop_>not for alloying, just because i like the name
14:34<@Alberth>lol
14:34<supermop_>molybdenum mine -> molybdenum store in town
14:38<andythenorth>Alberth: agreed, I’m trying to structure it so that 1000t is a normal amount from a mine or so :)
14:39<andythenorth>in all my test games I’ve been trying to get 2000t/month of steel produced
14:39<andythenorth>but fail so far :P
14:49<frosch123>Wolf01: it doesn't even offer tramtypes in the dropdown for me
14:50<Wolf01>Did you try the other button?
14:50<frosch123>it builds the stuff
14:50<Wolf01>Yes, once you open it, it works
14:51<frosch123>well, problem is GetRoadTypeDropDownList
14:51<frosch123>it also needs some decision which tramtypes are available
14:51<frosch123>the thing that it build tram even clicking, even though the dropdown is empty
14:51<Wolf01>It works for me
14:51<frosch123>i think that is a bug, which may also fail in game
14:52<Wolf01>But it reuses the road toolbar if it's open
14:52<Wolf01>As in SE construction toolbar don't get closed
14:53<frosch123>that's the same in game, isn't it?
14:53<Wolf01>In game it closes all the toolbars of the same type
14:54<Wolf01>In SE no toolbars close the others of the same type
15:00<frosch123>DeleteWindowByClass(WC_BUILD_TOOLBAR); <- that closes all toolbars in-game
15:00<frosch123>you can find it in ShowBuildRoadToolbar, but not in ShowBuildRoadScenToolbar
15:00<Wolf01>Yes I know
15:00<frosch123>the reason why tram replaced road is because they have the same window number
15:01<frosch123>windowclass+windownumber must be unique
15:01<frosch123>WC_SCEN_BUILD_TOOLBAR+TRANSPORT_ROAD is the same for both
15:01<Wolf01>Ok, but why it doesn't open a new one for trams if no toolbar is found?
15:02<frosch123>so, add a DeleteWindowById(WC_SCEN_BUILD_TOOLBAR, TRANSPORT_ROAD) to close the previous one
15:02<Wolf01>No, it doesn't work, I already tried
15:02<Wolf01>Just closes the toolbar and nothing new appears
15:03<frosch123>yes, that's what i meant :)
15:05<Wolf01>Uhm, DeleteWindowById doesn't even seem to work
15:06<Wolf01>Still flashes the old toolbar if present
15:06<Wolf01>Oops, missing a "_SCEN_"
15:07<Wolf01>The problem is that I can't open the tram toolbar now
15:08<frosch123>Wolf01: see OnInvalidateData
15:08<frosch123>if (this->roadtype_identifier.IsTram()) delete this;
15:08<frosch123>it's another "can_build" condition
15:08<@Alberth>andy, :) it's boring if you can achieve what you aim for :p Not being able to is much better for keeping you playing
15:08*frosch123 put a breakpoint into the window destructor, and ended up there
15:09<Wolf01>Meh... I even debugged that
15:09<@Alberth>it had more bugs :p
15:10<andythenorth>Alberth: agreed, unless the gap is too large :)
15:11<@Alberth>frosch123 / Wolf01 there is also a child/parent relation in windows that may close sub-windows in toolbars
15:12<frosch123>it's no sub-window, it's the top-level :)
15:12<Wolf01>The tram toolbar now works as intended, but the road toolbar still doesn't change the title like in normal game :/
15:12<@Alberth>it's in WindowDescription iirc
15:12<@Alberth>oh, sorry
15:13<@Alberth>andythenorth: then you need to play longer :p
15:14<@Alberth>I spend several years trying to get all industries connected with cdist
15:14<frosch123>Wolf01: STR_ROAD_TOOLBAR_ROAD_CONSTRUCTION_CAPTION
15:14<frosch123>should be STR_WHITE_STRING, like in the other window layouts
15:14<Wolf01>frosch123: do you agree if i change it like this? bool can_build = CanBuildVehicleInfrastructure(VEH_ROAD, this->roadtype_identifier.basetype) | _game_mode == GM_EDITOR;
15:15<Wolf01>Ha! The power of white strings
15:15<@Alberth>:)
15:16<@Alberth>we reserve black strings for dark magic
15:16<frosch123>Wolf01: i would look for how canals do it
15:17<Eddi|zuHause>so you're string racists?
15:17<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: no, we have many coloured strings
15:17<Eddi|zuHause>that's what a typical racist would say
15:17<frosch123>though we are not as colourful as tto
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>like an american slave owner would say "look how many black people i employ"
15:20<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: look up names of villages around sydney :)
15:21<Wolf01>Ok, the docks_gui just avoids the "delete this", but I don't know if it's there for a reason
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15:21<frosch123>Wolf01: there is this weird setting which allows building canals when there are no ships
15:22<frosch123>the same one also allows building roads
15:22<frosch123>but it should not allow building tram
15:22<Wolf01>In normal game
15:22<frosch123>similar scenario editor should only allow tram when there is some tram available
15:22<Wolf01>But in SE should be possible
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15:22<frosch123>so, i think just "allow anything in se" is too simple
15:23<Wolf01>No, I mean there's already the check in the dropdown which disables the button
15:23<frosch123>well, this is about closing the window if the setting is changed or something
15:23<frosch123>anyway, i think we need a new function to call
15:24<frosch123>i guess that test will be in multiple places
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15:24<frosch123>but no idea, may require collecting them first
15:33<Wolf01>BTW, it's ok you can't build infrastructure for the roadtype, but tracks should be allowed
15:35<Wolf01>I never tried, one player's tramways could be used by other players like roads?
15:37<frosch123>yes
15:37<frosch123>tram is also not removed on bankrupt
15:37<frosch123>but is transfered to OWNER_NONE
15:37<frosch123>and can then be removed by everyone
15:37<frosch123>like canals
15:37<V453000>iz cat?
15:37<V453000>dog?
15:37<V453000>slug?
15:38<Wolf01>Shitzilla
15:38<Wolf01>So, I don't have trams and I shouldn't be able to build tramways
15:39<Wolf01>But I'm able to build roads even if I don't have any vehicle
15:39<frosch123>because of town growth
15:39<frosch123>(i guess)
15:40<frosch123>but i did not invent that setting :)
15:40<frosch123>maybe the problem is that that setting is older than railtypes
15:40<frosch123>it already behaves weird with railtypes
15:40<frosch123>and now it behaves weird with road and tramtypes
15:41<Wolf01>Railtypes simply close the window directly if one can't build it anymore, but for both is just a gui problem
15:42<frosch123>but it somehow tries to compromise between "player builds stuff and then discovers there are no vehicles available, so all money is lost" and "player wants to build stuff just to make stuff look somehow"
15:42<Wolf01>CanBuildVehicleInfrastructure only tells you if you have vehicles for that transport type
15:43<Wolf01>Yup, I noticed that with early HAUL
15:44<Wolf01>No vehicles but still able to build everything
15:44<Wolf01>Because it just checks the basetype
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>roads were exempt from the setting because it's most likely you'd want to build them despite not using road vehicles
15:45<Wolf01>Ok for vanilla roads, but why should I be able to even build HAUL road? (not speaking for HAUL infrastructure)
15:46<frosch123>yeah, in-game normal road is the only exception
15:46<Eddi|zuHause>you could use the "can be used for town growth" flag to limit the exception
15:46<frosch123>in scenario all types should be available which become available at some point
15:46<frosch123>but also not those which have no use whatsoever
15:47<Wolf01>andythenorth, with HAUL you used the same id of ELRD or you disabled it in some way?
15:48<andythenorth>I don’t have any ELRD vehicles in Road Hog...
15:48<andythenorth>so it won’t appear?
15:48<Wolf01>Because I'm able to build ROAD and HAUL, I see no trace of ELRD and HAUL has id = 2 (while ELRD should be 1)
15:49<frosch123>Wolf01: sounds correct, doesn't it?
15:49<Wolf01>The dropdown already filters with available vehicles, the same should be used in CanBuildVehicleInfrastructure
15:49<frosch123>ROAD and HAUL are buildable because some vehicle will be available somewhen
15:49<frosch123>ELRD is not buildable because there are no vehicles ever
15:50<Wolf01>But if I leave out the filter in the dropdown it let me build it
15:50<Wolf01>Which is inconsistent
15:50<frosch123>so, no validation in the command :)
15:52<Wolf01>It would let me open the toolbar too, because the delete is only for trams
15:53<Wolf01>So it's just a gui problem
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>i thought it was meant to only affect the GUI
15:53<Wolf01>The same check should be in the command too
15:54<Wolf01>Eddi, the problem is that ROAD, ELRD, and HAUL are the same for the check
15:55<Wolf01>(also are ROAD, RAIL, and ELRL, but that's handled in the gui directly)
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16:05<Wolf01>We should get an agreement on how to fix this thing
16:13<frosch123>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pnyij7sau <- i would expect something like that
16:13<frosch123>no idea how far that matches with the current behaviour
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16:13<Wolf01>Yup
16:15<Wolf01>How it was the git diff command again? I already staged changes but it creates an empty file
16:16<frosch123>git diff --cached
16:16<Wolf01>"git help diff" doesn't work -.-
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>git show?
16:17<Wolf01>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/ppls1aleu <-
16:17<Wolf01>This closes the gui when I select a roadtype with no available vehicles
16:18<Wolf01>(disabled dropdown filter just for test)
16:19<Wolf01>But it's a duplication and I don't like it
16:19<frosch123>we need a similar function like CanBuildVehicleInfrastructure
16:20<frosch123>one which also accept "consider_current_date", "company/gamescript/scenedit" and "specific road/railtype"/"any road/railtype"
16:21<Wolf01>So a CanBuildVehicleInfrastructure on steroids
16:21<frosch123>then that function can be used in commands, gui button enable/disable, hotkey handling and ...
16:22<Wolf01>I could start by moving the checking code into the switch, as it is different for every transport type (maybe ships and airplanes could be shared, until andy invents a new kind of ship)
16:23<andythenorth>such ship
16:24<Wolf01>NotShipTypes
16:24<frosch123>Wolf01: i guess V will just make a landscape grf that swaps water with land sprites
16:24<Wolf01>Ha, water mountains!
16:24<frosch123>so all vehicles drive in water, and ships are stuck on land
16:26<andythenorth>ice roads
16:26<andythenorth>ships are iced in
16:26<andythenorth>mountains are icebergs
16:26<andythenorth>plausible? o_O
16:26<Wolf01>I think it could work as water depths if you turn your monitor upside down, but it really breaks the illusion of all the other things
16:26<frosch123>i was more thinking along pudding in vanilla sauce
16:27<andythenorth>also plausible
16:29<Eddi|zuHause>i had great fun in TTO with trains driving on water
16:30<frosch123>i think that was also presend in ttd
16:30<frosch123>so likely you can display "miscfixes" in ttdp and play with it
16:30<frosch123>s/display/disable/
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17:02<andythenorth>is bed
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18:04<supermop_>no trolley wire for mud yard tramway
18:04<supermop_>save a tramtype slot
18:04<supermop_>maybe ruins little HEQs trams
18:06<supermop_>but i don't think andy will be updating HEQs for NRT anytime soon
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18:38<__ln__>http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/arts/literature/drug-or-tolkien-elf-quiz.htm
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19:07<Wolf01>21/30
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19:23<Wolf01>'night
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20:42-!-orudge` is "orudge" on #thesinner #openttdcoop.devzone #openttdcoop.dev #bukkit #jontylog #tycoonexiles #z.aud #z.radio #locomotion #transportempire #openttdcoop #openttd #tycoon
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23:04-!-Ttech is "Thomas Techinus" on #munin #moocows #qemu @#nsl #linode-beta #debian-mentors #help @#textual @#swift @#botters #archlinux #observium #openttd #oftc #linode @#transcendence
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---Logclosed Wed Feb 15 00:00:45 2017