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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-02-15

---Logopened Wed Feb 15 00:00:45 2017
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06:46<Wolf01>o/
06:47<crem>\o
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07:11<Wolf01>https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/agLVoWW_460s.jpg lol V
07:11<Wolf01>Story of your cousins XD
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07:15<__ln__>to confuse things more, the name of the Slovak language in Slovak is 'slovenský jazyk'
07:15<Wolf01>Ahahah
07:23<crem>http://x3.wykop.pl/cdn/c3201142/comment_2ldUGkE3ut8ScpXnyWm2fpC3nWyhDCyg.jpg
07:25<Alkel_U3>I was just about to post that :-)
07:28<crem>I know what's the most irritating for belarusians! It's when belarus is called byelorussia (white russia) rathen than Belarus. :) Russia called Belarus properly in 1990s, and recently (last 10 years) started to call Byelorussia again.
07:31<Wolf01>I shit on pasta with ketchup
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07:31<Wolf01>https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aYxeLZw_700b.jpg Ha! Not a single american in US!
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08:24<Wolf01>https://xkcd.com/1799/
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09:37<supermop_>yo
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11:01<@Alberth>hi hi
11:04<Wolf01>o/
11:05<crem>\o
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11:21<Wolf01>Quak
11:22<frosch123>moi
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12:09<andythenorth>o/
12:23<@Alberth>o/
12:24<andythenorth>Alberth: for industry creation during game, did you try anything like ‘just build 1 new industry per year’?
12:24<andythenorth>i.e. increasing beyond the quota
12:30<@Alberth>in openttd source code?
12:30<andythenorth>yes
12:30<@Alberth>iirc it's smaller, 5 / decade, except a more weird number than 5
12:31<andythenorth>most of my games are 20-30 years, with no closures
12:31<@Alberth>it can be smaller, if industries die a lot, it stop adding new industries
12:31<andythenorth>and very very rarely do I see an industry added to the map
12:32<andythenorth>one route would be to fix it in GS
12:32<andythenorth>but I don’t think that’s quite right
12:32<@Alberth>what do you want to fix?
12:32<@Alberth>350t iron ore / month :o so much
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12:34<@Alberth>(380, 400) -> (115, 280) that's pretty much half the map, at 88km/h :p
12:41<@Alberth>andythenorth: line 2095 industry_cmd.cpp
12:41<@Alberth>static const int NEWINDS_PER_MONTH = 0x38000 / (10 * 12); // lower 16 bits is a float fraction, 3.5 industries per decade, divided by 10 * 12 months.
12:41<@Alberth>per 256x256
12:43<Wolf01>Bah... I'm using stud.io to build an airport with a friend... that software has too many bugs and inconsistencies that make it a pain to use :(
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12:51<andythenorth>3.5 eh
12:51<andythenorth>that chimes with my experience
12:52<andythenorth>I usually play 256x256 or so
12:52*andythenorth probably has very different game to ‘most people’ :)
12:55<andythenorth>what was the ‘half the map’ thing? o_O
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13:15<@Alberth>andythenorth: http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/steeltown2b.png
13:15<@Alberth>350 t/month iron ore, in 1905, IH
13:15<andythenorth>big goals
13:15*andythenorth has a smaller map :P
13:15<@Alberth>you made the mine :p
13:16<andythenorth>yeah, I needed more iron ore
13:16<@Alberth>:D
13:16<andythenorth>is that the default (1x) production?
13:16<@Alberth>yes
13:16<andythenorth>that’s the upper end of the range
13:16<andythenorth>160t is more common :)
13:18<@Alberth>http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/thomson_co_1905_04_18.sav
13:18<@Alberth>hmm, the other two are 90 and 135 t/m
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13:18<andythenorth>the random range might be too wide
13:18<andythenorth>not sure
13:19<@Alberth>I didn't check the amounts, but by the time I was finished adding trains, all trains of the first one had already left :)
13:19<@Alberth>oh, it's fun :)
13:19<@Alberth>filled tracks with long trains
13:19<andythenorth>it would not be a good choice with IH Antelope
13:20<andythenorth>which has small capacity, long wagons :P
13:20<andythenorth>very very long trains :P
13:20<@Alberth>the track to the far left does something similar, although production is more sane
13:20<@Alberth>I don't have Antelope, is that a new engine?
13:21<@Alberth>or a newer version perhaps
13:21<@Alberth>IH 1.9.1
13:21<andythenorth>it’s not in the released versions
13:21<andythenorth>very WIP
13:22<andythenorth>so many unfinished things :)
13:22<@Alberth>big bertha is quite useless, nice horsepower but not fast enough at this distance
13:22<Eddi|zuHause>isn't big bertha a cannon?
13:22<@Alberth>no, it's an engine
13:23<Eddi|zuHause>https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dicke_Bertha
13:24<andythenorth>it’s also a cannon
13:24<andythenorth>‘also’ due to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MR_0-10-0_Lickey_Banker
13:25<andythenorth>I am going to rebalance IH, I am playing a test version right now
13:25<andythenorth>freight trains are seriously too fast :)
13:35<supermop_>i very quickly seem to go from 6 tile freight is too long, to not nearly big enough
13:36<supermop_>but line capacity won't allow much bigger than 7 or 8
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13:38<andythenorth>I have same
13:38<andythenorth>start with TL6, then 8, 10 or 12
13:38<andythenorth>and more platforms
13:38<andythenorth>network is overwhelmed fast
13:39<supermop_>nice looking junctions have trouble handling the stream of 8TL freights coming through every 10 days
13:39<andythenorth>I should make an IH roster with 40, 70, 100t wagons
13:40<andythenorth>at max 8/8 lengths :P
13:40<supermop_>hampers mixed use lines a bit
13:40*andythenorth doesn’t even have any :P
13:40<andythenorth>I have started a new SV, and have built the main spine route with canals instead
13:41<andythenorth>which is weird and lame, but I’ll never get gold otherwise
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13:42<supermop_>i still keep trying to run passengers and freight on the same double tack as long as i can
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13:43<Eddi|zuHause>that always results in me only focusing on passengers and neglecting freight
13:44<supermop_>need night time
13:46<supermop_>andy, this code you gave me, i can just adapt into a regular nml file, right?
13:46<supermop_>i don't necessarily need to do any python magic to it
13:51<supermop_>hmm what to call the harbor roadways?
13:51<supermop_>cobble road or roadway sounds like a regular road or street
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13:52<supermop_>does 'driveway' make sense?
13:55<@Alberth>andy: I wouldn't know if freight trains are too fast, it's all I do :)
14:02<andythenorth>it causes balancing issues
14:03<andythenorth>if the basic idea is that there are fast pax engines and slower more powerful freight engines....
14:03<andythenorth>when they are too similar, it introduces a boring choice
14:03<andythenorth>I am attempting to be the enemy of boring choices :)
14:04<andythenorth>supermop: you’ll need a grf header block, but that RH code is vanilla nml yes, no python in it
14:04<andythenorth>I copied it from the nml example grf for NRT :)
14:22<andythenorth>hmm
14:23<andythenorth>when would ottd _ideally_ build new industries?
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14:29<@Alberth>when you need them
14:29<andythenorth>that heuristic is hard to manage :)
14:29<@Alberth>depends, you can check what industries you play with, and where
14:30<@Alberth>you can check how you connect industries
14:30<@Alberth>there should be a lot of information in what you do in the game, I think
14:30<@Alberth>but I agree it's not trivial to find information
14:31<supermop_>'yard' instead of 'roadway'?
14:31<@Alberth>another point is of course, if you connect only coal mines, should the game supply you with even more?
14:31<@Alberth>ie how is that balanced wrt newgrf author wishes?
14:32<@Alberth>for me, a yard is a weird unit of length, or a garden :p
14:32<andythenorth>heuristics are hard :)
14:32<andythenorth>maybe you didn’t connect any coal mines because they’re all in the wrong place
14:32<supermop_>Alberth: what if trucks are driving around on your garden?
14:32<andythenorth>so maybe you really want a coal mine
14:33<@Alberth>could be, in theory you can analyze that too
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14:33<@Alberth>along with speed of trains, the terrain etc etc
14:34<@Alberth>supermop_: I'd like to see them do that, as I have no such thing :)
14:35<@Alberth>but you're asking about USA names and we have very little clue about meaning of USA names, mostly
14:36<@Alberth>andy, but if you specify some sort of preferences, it could work from that
14:37<supermop_>any sort of name at all.
14:37<supermop_>like what to call the big paved part of a port where trucks and forklifts drive around
14:38<andythenorth>Alberth: although I am -1 to settings generally, seems like control over industry construction (and maybe closure) might be an openttd thing
14:38<andythenorth>it’s not a case that newgrf can solve
14:38<supermop_>'paved road' sounds like a road
14:38<supermop_>'pavement' sounds like, not a road
14:38<andythenorth>it’s a very highly specific thing for GS to solve, and a distortion of GS as a goals framework
14:39<supermop_>so user might not understand
14:39<andythenorth>Close industries: “never” | “random chance if unserviced for x years”
14:40<andythenorth>Open industries: “never” | “random chance every x years (favour highly served types)” | “random chance every x years (favour under-served types)"
14:40<andythenorth>dunno
14:54<@Alberth>I agree newgrf can't solve it, it doesn't have enough knowledge, or coding it is too complicated
14:55<@Alberth>so openttd or a GS would be better
14:55<@Alberth>I also believe openttd is in a much better position to request closure
14:55<@Alberth>but euhm, somebody blocked that in the newgrf spec :p
14:56<@Alberth>until we make an extension on the extension, or something
14:57<@Alberth>I don't think people have much trouble with opening, that is, until you open too many, I guess
14:57<@Alberth>but people do not like closing
14:57<@Alberth>likely they don't serve the industry well enough
14:58<@Alberth>I had the problem a few times that I was setting up a connection, and it died on me, yep it happens, generally not a big deal, unless it's very early in the game
14:58<andythenorth>a newgrf major version bump would be a reason to remove closure control from newgrf :P
14:58<andythenorth>newgrf doesn’t need to forbid closure
14:59<andythenorth>oh, eh, there are people who want to force closure in newgrf though :(
14:59<@Alberth>afaik, newgrf has the final word
14:59<andythenorth>it does
14:59<andythenorth>addon specs are a minefield
14:59<andythenorth>‘here be dragons'
14:59<andythenorth>never write an API :P
14:59<@Alberth>some people think you can solve global problems in a local way, and get a good result :(
15:00<@Alberth>or they are afraid players may play in a different way than they do, or so
15:00<andythenorth>‘forbid closure’ would have looked like a logical option for the cb at the time it was written
15:00<andythenorth>it’s hard to design a future proof API :)
15:00<@Alberth>yes, don't try it
15:01<@Alberth>instead make it possible to remove the api when it has fulfilled its evolutionary role
15:02<andythenorth>does a version bump do that?
15:02<@Alberth>hmm, can't we add a lower/upper version to each api, just like the data saved in a savegame has a lower and upper version number where it is valid
15:02<andythenorth>old grfs carry on working as expected :P
15:03<andythenorth>it add conditional jank in openttd though eh?
15:03<andythenorth>if grfversion > 8 (stuff) or so :)
15:03<@Alberth>hmm, rewrite old newgrf to new standard :p
15:03<@Alberth>yeah, it explodes somewhat
15:03<@Alberth>but game version conversion does that too
15:04<supermop_>what if i try to drive a trolleybus on ROAD+ELRL?
15:04<andythenorth>no dice
15:04<supermop_>it isn't specifically ELRD
15:04<andythenorth>what compatibility have you set?
15:05<andythenorth>if ELRL is a tramtype label, it’s literally ignored for the road vehicle and vice versa
15:05<supermop_>i guess thats realistic bc trolleybus need two trolleywires
15:05<andythenorth>realism or not, connecting the labels for the two route types together is a fast trolleyride to madness :)
15:06<supermop_>setting electric road types to be powered on each other but not electric tram types
15:06<@Alberth>ha, pig iron has different colour in different wagons, I see
15:06<supermop_>Alberth: gets rusty faster in some wagons?
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15:07<@Alberth>only if rusty pig iron is more white-ish :)
15:07<andythenorth>that might be an accident :)
15:07<andythenorth>I haven’t really supported it yet
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15:08<@Alberth>http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/pig_iron_colours.png
15:09<@Alberth>oh, it's fine, just unexpected
15:09<andythenorth>default (fallback) cargo sprites
15:09<andythenorth>boxes + tarpaulins
15:09<@Alberth>variation in shape and colour is always nice
15:10<@Alberth>1.9.1 is also pre steeltown, probably
15:10<@Alberth>no wonder it doesn't know about it :)
15:10<andythenorth>yup
15:14*andythenorth builds canals such https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Lawrence_Seaway
15:16<@Alberth>225m, that's long :)
15:16<@Alberth>works at a smaller map
15:20<andythenorth>ach, these square cornered canals :)
15:21<andythenorth>ugly
15:22<@Alberth>didn't planet maker have better canal sprites?
15:22<@Alberth>or were they river sprites perhaps?
15:23<@Alberth>but indeed, we're quite stuck with the grid world
15:27<@Alberth>bleh, train moving uphill @ 2km/h :(
15:28<Wolf01>Add more engines :P
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15:33<andythenorth>there is opengfx water features
15:33<andythenorth>better canals, worse rivers :)
15:35<@Alberth>I know it needs more engines
15:35<@Alberth>more powerful horses wouldbe simpler :p
15:36<@Alberth>but at least it explains why my cargo isn't being moved :)
15:37<andythenorth>what do you have for freight weight multiplier setting? o_O
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15:37<@Alberth>apparently, andy has heavy goods, unlike default goods :)
15:38<@Alberth>6
15:38<andythenorth>ha
15:38<andythenorth>that used to be a recommended default with NARS and such
15:38<andythenorth>I have 1 :)
15:39<andythenorth>I should put that in the docs :P
15:39<@Alberth>ah, 6x as long trains :p
15:39<@Alberth>"author plays with freight multiplier 1, you must do the same" :)
15:41<@Alberth>oh, 4-4-2 is reliable now, could use that one instead
15:41<andythenorth>“author tests with 1” :P
15:41<@Alberth>:)
15:41<andythenorth>tbh, the TE and HP are already about twice reality
15:41<andythenorth>the 6 setting was the advice for American train sets where people want 5 or 6 engines on a train
15:42<@Alberth>hmm, less TE, not good
15:42<@Alberth>yeah, 6 is just sort of random
15:42<andythenorth>what year are you in?
15:42<@Alberth>no special purpose of ideas behind it
15:42<@Alberth>1909
15:43<andythenorth>there should be an Aberdare, 2 of those are usually quite good
15:43<@Alberth>2-6-0 exists too, but only 85%
15:43<andythenorth>does reliability increase if you run more instances of the train?
15:44*andythenorth can’t remember
15:44<@Alberth>no, but it goes up in time, and then down again
15:44<andythenorth>I projected a non-existent cause
15:44<andythenorth>:P
15:44<@Alberth>at first it was around 64%, which is horrible
15:44<andythenorth>been years since I had breakdowns on
15:46<@Alberth>it's faster and slightly more powerful, a bit of reliability reduction likely won't be that bad
15:50<@Alberth>slag transport is a mess, can't keep up with the new iron ore production raise :)
16:00<andythenorth>nope
16:00<andythenorth>it’s over-produced, the ratio is 50:50
16:01<andythenorth>should be more like 75:25
16:01<andythenorth>needs new FIRS code
16:02<@Alberth>oh, any amount is good, just needs more trains :p
16:02<@Alberth>and a more dedicated line for it
16:05<andythenorth>ships :)
16:09<@Alberth>nah, less fun :)
16:09<@Alberth>I like restructuring railway tracks to smoothen traffic
16:10<andythenorth>maybe I should stop using SV for a bit
16:10<andythenorth>it creates focus on ‘win’ :)
16:10<@Alberth>big ore mines, and over-production of slag is good, it causes chaos in the network that needs to be fixed
16:11<@Alberth>default industries are a bit better at that, as their production rises :p
16:13<supermop_>sprites start at the top left, right?
16:14<andythenorth>yes
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16:20<andythenorth>am I the only irritated by train lengths that are not x.0?
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16:23*andythenorth ponders making all wagons 4/8 and 8/8
16:24<supermop_>wait - its the x,y of the first pixel in the sprite, or how many pixels it is from the origin?
16:25<supermop_>like if there is 10px whitespace from the edges, it would be 11,11 right?
16:25<supermop_>andythenorth: yes a little
16:25<supermop_>non integer trains look better but are annoying
16:26<andythenorth>supermop_: zero-indexd, so 10,10 if it’s 10px whitespace
16:26<andythenorth>also bed
16:26<supermop_>ok
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16:26<supermop_>later
16:33<@Alberth>nn
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18:00<supermop_>why are there junction underlays templated for in bridge surfaces?
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18:14<Wolf01><supermop_> why are there junction underlays templated for in bridge surfaces? <- who knows?
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18:17<supermop_>im going to ignore for now
18:19<supermop_>hmm i need to figure out a better way that repeating this huge set of templating each time for each pavement type
18:19<supermop_>like, redo all that previous stuff but for y.png instead of x.png
18:20<supermop_>or, maybe i can put all the sprite related stuff into a separate nml file for each one? idk how that stuff works
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18:35<Wolf01>Maybe andy could help you, he used some templating and recolouring script for unsinkable sam
18:37<supermop_>possibly, but i think he's busy enough without lending charity to my ill-conceived projects
18:38<supermop_>ok going home
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18:56<supermop>now I'm home
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19:11<Wolf01>https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/ayD85Xq_460s.jpg heh
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19:31<+glx>haha
19:45<Wolf01>We are still mocking my mom for that :D
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20:18<Wolf01>'night
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22:35<SimYouLater>Hey, this is a bit of a weird thing to ask, but I have no choice. Kamnet offered to upload FicTownNames to BaNaNaS for me because I was barely able to program the NewGRF as is.
22:35<SimYouLater>Now he's disappeared.
22:35<SimYouLater>And he still hasn't uploaded it.
22:35<supermop>kamnet usually doesn't hang out on IRC
22:35<supermop>best way to reach him is on forums
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22:36<SimYouLater>He hasn't been active since the 17th of January.
22:36<SimYouLater>I assume he's gone.
22:37<SimYouLater>Would anyone be able to upload FicTownNames for me?
22:37<supermop>he's usually pretty responsive, so if he hasn't replied in a while, it's likely a pressing family or business issue
22:37<SimYouLater>Understandable.
22:37<SimYouLater>But it doesn't mean I have forever to wait for him.
22:38<supermop>I know he was getting active in progressive activism, and he lives in a very conservative area, so he may be indisposed due to political activites or concerns
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22:38<supermop>I haven't used bananas in a long time
22:39<SimYouLater>I'm not concerned about kamnet. If he can;t do it, I'm not going to force him. I just need someone to upload FicTownNames to BaNaNaS.
22:39<supermop>i think there is a way to just upload from the web interface?
22:39<supermop>unless it's a huge file
22:39<supermop>i think you need a username though
22:40<supermop>do you have an account on there?
22:40<SimYouLater>I think I do. It's asking me to check if I merged it though.
22:41<supermop>other concern is I think once the first version is uploaded, only the user who uploaded it can update it?
22:41<supermop>otherwise you need an admin to help
22:42<SimYouLater>It hasn't been uploaded yet, fortunately.
22:42<SimYouLater>It's not on BaNaNaS at all.
22:42<SimYouLater>Also, it appears I do not have an account.
22:42<SimYouLater>Thanks, then.
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---Logclosed Thu Feb 16 00:00:47 2017