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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-02-17

---Logopened Fri Feb 17 00:00:48 2017
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02:55<andythenorth>integer maths :|
03:00<andythenorth>there must be a way to consolidate this sum?
03:00<andythenorth>100 / 8 * 6 / 8 * 4
03:01<andythenorth>where 100, 6 and 4 are vars, and the 8s are constant
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03:07<__ln__>a mathematician would argue it's not a sum
03:08<__ln__>@calc 100/8*6/8*4
03:08<@DorpsGek>__ln__: 37.5
03:08<__ln__>@calc 100*6*4/(8*8)
03:08<@DorpsGek>__ln__: 37.5
03:11<andythenorth>ha neat
03:11<andythenorth>@ calc 100 * 6 * 4 / 64
03:11<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 37.5
03:12<andythenorth>thanks
03:45<V453000>never do meth andythenorth
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05:36<Wolf01>Moin
05:38<andythenorth>lo
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05:43*Wolf01 requires more know-how and assistance to make that "CanBuildInfrastructureOnSteroids" function :(
05:47<@peter1138>multitile docks?
05:48<Wolf01>No, fix ScenarioEditor for NRT
05:48<crem>multititile
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05:49<Wolf01>Is actually impossible to build trams in SE
05:50<Wolf01>Also the current function doesn't work well with road/railtypes
05:51<Wolf01>I looked at what do I need to make a function as frosch suggested, but I'm not satisfied with the format
05:52<Wolf01>Too many arguments, might need new support structures
05:53<Wolf01>I would make 4 distinct functions, one for each one of the 3 use cases and a common one which does the actual check
05:57<andythenorth>this is for checking availability of [xxx]type?
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05:57<Wolf01>Yes
05:58<Wolf01>To be used in GUI, SE, GameScripts
05:58<Wolf01>And in commands too
06:01<@peter1138>i guess the SE was designed to plonk scenery, industries and towns down
06:02<@peter1138>not build infrastructure
06:02<Wolf01>It can build roads
06:03<Wolf01>But it inherited the build tram limitation from normal game
06:04<Wolf01>If I remove that, you can build tramways also if there are no vehicles available for that
06:21<andythenorth>SE mess :)
06:22<andythenorth>can SE build railways?
06:22<Wolf01>No
06:22<andythenorth>ok, so it can’t build tramways
06:23<Wolf01>They are company exclusive, while tramways not
06:23<andythenorth>it shouldn’t build canals either
06:23<andythenorth>roads are a special case, because they’re a dependency for towns
06:23<Wolf01>You should be able anything which supports "owner none"
06:23<andythenorth>that is a valid argument yes
06:23<Wolf01>*able to build
06:23<andythenorth>but I think it’s easier to prevent building infrastructure except default ROAD
06:24<andythenorth>complexity is bad
06:24<andythenorth>it’s hard to solve, hard to test, and makes code harder to work on
06:24<andythenorth>also it’s demotivating usually :)
06:24<andythenorth>imho canals should be removed from SE also
06:24<Wolf01>Nah, it should be consistent with the game, the problem are the current functions which do checks on company and remove the feature from SE with hardcoded "if (game_mode == GM_EDITOR) go f**k yourself"
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06:26<Wolf01>Meybe in future we could be able to generate big cities with a tramway ring, which could be used by the players
06:26<Wolf01>*Maybe
06:27*andythenorth is maybe the wrong audience
06:27<andythenorth>I have almost never used a scenario
06:28<Wolf01>I made some scenarios in the past
06:30<andythenorth>I think trams in SE is marginal value, compared to say….improved water features :)
06:30<andythenorth>or fixing the station window :P
06:33*andythenorth fixes FIRS :)
06:35<andythenorth>eh, failing station refit is failing :(
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07:49<andythenorth>ach modulus (%)
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08:51<V453000>iz slug?
08:52<Wolf01>Not yet
08:55*andythenorth hating maths today
08:55<andythenorth>normally maths is ‘fine'
08:55<andythenorth>it’s like 3 hours so far, just trying to refactor current code
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09:00<andythenorth>this is code to remove the remainder in the production cb
09:00<andythenorth>STORE_PERM(LOAD_PERM(var_leftover_cargo_1) % (MAX_SUM_PROD_RATIO / LOAD_TEMP(num_output_cargos)), var_leftover_cargo_1)
09:01<andythenorth>I know why it’s there, but I don’t know why it works
09:01<andythenorth>which makes refactoring it impossible :|
09:01<andythenorth>MAX_SUM_PROD_RATIO is 8
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09:01<andythenorth>but I don’t know why it would need to % 8 or % 4 depending on number of output cargos
09:02<andythenorth>the whole thing is here http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/revisions/88656c250c13/entry/src/templates/produce_secondary.pypnml
09:02*andythenorth didn’t write this code
09:02<Wolf01>FIRS?
09:04<Wolf01>I think is to not output an insane amount of cargo, like 10t iron -> 10t steel + 10t slag but 5t steel and 5t slag
09:05<andythenorth>the modulus part is to deal with integer maths stuff
09:05<andythenorth>can’t output 33.75t for example
09:06<andythenorth>which can lead to input being ‘wasted'
09:06<andythenorth>a player noticed it and filed a bug report, so we patched it :)
09:07<Wolf01>That's because everyone expects a 1:1 or 2:1:1
09:07<andythenorth>yes
09:07<andythenorth>but why % 4 if there are two cargos?
09:07<andythenorth>why not just % 8?
09:08<Wolf01>Heh, math is not my friend
09:08<andythenorth>me neither today
09:08<andythenorth>specifically integer maths I struggle with
09:09<andythenorth>it’s not accurate anyway, it will leave too much cargo behind
09:09<andythenorth>this needs Eddi :(
09:17<andythenorth>also the maths doesn’t work
09:17<andythenorth>@calc 72 * 8 * 2 / 64
09:17<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 18
09:18<andythenorth>game gives me 21
09:24<andythenorth>@calc 75 * 8 * 2 / 64
09:24<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 18.75
09:24<andythenorth>@calc 72 % 8
09:24<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 0
09:29<andythenorth>what’s the minimum amount that can be produced? o_O
09:41<andythenorth>@calc 144 * 2 * 8 / 64
09:41<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 36
09:41<andythenorth>I get 32 or 38 :P
09:42<supermop>yo
09:42<andythenorth>lo supermop
09:43<supermop>im with wolf
09:44<supermop>because tram isn't always going to be tram
09:44<supermop>there could be various non-ROAD road or tram types that might be valuable to scenario editor
09:44<supermop>my bridge sprites are wrong
09:49<andythenorth>I have new maths that should resolve the same as the old maths
09:49<andythenorth>but it doesn’t :x
09:51<supermop>why is bridge showing the regular underlays in the correct position, instead of the bridge surface sprites?
09:52<andythenorth>mismatched template?
09:53<supermop>http://imgur.com/a/25b7L
09:53<supermop>grey bit is part of the bridge surface, but in wrong place
09:53<supermop>but why is the cobble there at all
09:54<andythenorth>paste your code?
09:54<andythenorth>(or start a repo ;) )
09:54<supermop>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pizkwjafy
09:55<supermop>http://imgur.com/a/LnzxQ
09:55<supermop>thats the spritesheet
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09:56<andythenorth>ground_tile( 10, 288)?
09:57<andythenorth>hmm that looks ok
09:57<supermop>should i call it something else?
09:57<andythenorth>paste all your code?
09:58<supermop>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/petgrpgoi
09:59<supermop>ignore the truck at the bottom dont need it
09:59<andythenorth>brb
10:01<supermop>coffee
10:06<andythenorth>supermop: whatever you’re doing, RH doesn’t do it :)
10:06*andythenorth will look
10:08<supermop>'cobblestone pavement construction' or 'cobblestone driveway construction'?
10:09<supermop>release docklands ->create steam tram harbor ->create quaint steam tram screenshots
10:09<andythenorth>cobble road? o_O
10:10<supermop>andythenorth: want to differentiate it from an actual cobblestone street or road
10:10<andythenorth>not sure why RH works
10:10<andythenorth>oh
10:10<supermop>rh reuses regular sprites, not bridge sprites
10:10<andythenorth>your underlay fills the whole tile?
10:10<supermop>yep
10:10<andythenorth>that’s why then
10:11<supermop>but i dont want the underlay on the bridge at all
10:11<andythenorth>RH copies from nml example, which reuses the underlay
10:11<supermop>hmmm
10:11<andythenorth>but you already split it :o
10:11<andythenorth>hmm NFI then
10:13<andythenorth>supermop: try removing ‘underlay’ from the graphics block and recompile
10:13<andythenorth>just to test
10:14<supermop>just for the bridge wording?
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10:15<andythenorth>line 85 or so in the paste
10:15<andythenorth>underlay: cobble_road_underlay;
10:15<andythenorth>I suspect that underlay is always drawn, and has to fit to standard bridge dimensions
10:18<supermop>hmm
10:20<supermop>tram is going to need that though
10:21<supermop>unless tram can have two overlays
10:23<supermop>commenting out underlay makes the roads all look like normal roads
10:25<@peter1138>hmm, what's a nice bug tracker with git integration?
10:26<supermop>can i just disable bridges for a roadtype instead?
10:27<supermop>tbh do not need these types to have bridges as they are just freight yard decoration
10:27<andythenorth>peter1138: github?
10:28<andythenorth>oh you said ‘nice'
10:28<andythenorth>redmine is ‘ok'
10:28<andythenorth>jira is paid for and divides opinion sharply
10:29*andythenorth would likely just use github, cos, free and minimal set up
10:30<@peter1138>yeah this is for private internal projects though
10:30<@peter1138>redmine looks possible
10:30<andythenorth>redmine is ok
10:30<@peter1138>i'm sure i used to have one
10:30<andythenorth>better if someone else hosts it :P
10:31<@peter1138>must've lost it over the years
10:37<supermop>lying awake last night pondering possible pro/cons/ways to make interesting trolley trucks in late game
10:40<andythenorth>why does FIRS fuck around trying to calculate remainder cargos? :)
10:40<andythenorth>@calc floor(100 * 6) / 8
10:40<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 75
10:41<andythenorth>@calc floor(100 * 3) / 8
10:41<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 37.5
10:41<andythenorth>@calc floor(100 * 3 / 8)
10:41<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 37
10:41<andythenorth>it’s 0.5t ‘wasted'
10:41<andythenorth>@calc 8 * 3 / 8
10:41<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 3
10:42<andythenorth>iirc, for very small delivery amounts, nothing gets produced below a certain minimum
10:42<andythenorth>but docs don’t tell me what the minimum is
10:43<andythenorth>bloody integer division
10:51<andythenorth>can’t see anything in IndustryProductionCallback that would require output >= 8
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10:53<Eddi|zuHause><peter1138> i'm sure i used to have one <-- are you sure you didn't mean you had a patch for one? :p
10:57<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: can you discern what lines 45-48 are supposed to achieve here? http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/revisions/88656c250c13/entry/src/templates/produce_secondary.pypnml
10:57<andythenorth>the intent is to compensate for ‘wasted’ input cargo due to integer division, but eh
10:59<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, it stores the remainder for future use
11:00<andythenorth>does the maths add up?
11:01<andythenorth>I know what the grf code is doing, but I can’t follow the maths
11:01<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not sure what the var_ratio_cargo_X do
11:01<andythenorth>it would be, for example 8
11:01<andythenorth>or 6
11:02<andythenorth>or 3
11:02<andythenorth>@calc 100 / 8 / 2 * 3
11:02<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 18.75
11:02<andythenorth>so the remainder would be 0.75
11:02<andythenorth>@calc 100 % (8 * 2)
11:02<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 4
11:03<andythenorth>there seems to be no connection between the calculated remainder, and the actual remainder
11:03<Eddi|zuHause>so the maths is roughly as follows: 100/8/2 is equal to 100/(8*2). in the lines above you take the whole part of that division
11:03<Eddi|zuHause>in the lines below you take the remainder of that division
11:03<@Alberth>o/
11:04<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not sure what the *3 does
11:04<andythenorth>the 2 is the number of produced cargos
11:04<Eddi|zuHause>so you put 100/(8*2) into the production, and 100%(8*2) is the new leftover
11:05<andythenorth>the 3 is the proportion of cargo supplied:delivered, as 8:3
11:05<@Alberth>b * (a/b) + (a%b) = a
11:06<@Alberth>where a/b rounds down
11:06<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 100/(8*2)
11:06<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 6.25
11:06<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 100%(8*2)
11:06<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 4
11:06<@Alberth>(or more likely, towards 0
11:06<Eddi|zuHause>so the / rounds the 6.25 towards 6
11:06<Eddi|zuHause>and the % is for not throwing away the .25
11:07<Eddi|zuHause>and i'm no closer to understanding what the *3 does
11:07<@Alberth>16 * 0.25 == 4 :)
11:08<Eddi|zuHause>my best guess is that the 100/(8*2) is the amount of input cargo you use, and the *3 is just for the output cargo, so not relevant for storing the remainder
11:08<andythenorth>@calc 100 / 8 * 2
11:08<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 25
11:09<andythenorth>@calc 100 / (8 * 2)
11:09<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 6.25
11:09<Eddi|zuHause>100 divided by (8*2) is 6 with remainder 4
11:09<@Alberth>ratio sum?
11:09<Eddi|zuHause>in the upper lines you process the 6, and in the lower lines you carry over the 4
11:10<andythenorth>oh it’s like primary school maths?
11:10<andythenorth>hah
11:10<andythenorth>I never managed to do long division
11:10<supermop>haha
11:10<andythenorth>30 years later, it shows up again
11:10<andythenorth>I could never carry the remainder, makes no sense
11:10<supermop>i got caught up on a GRE question about long division some how
11:11<Eddi|zuHause>what's "long" about the division?
11:11<supermop>there i was at like 24 years old looking at math i hadnt done since i was 10
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11:11<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: the length of my lamentations upon being faced with it
11:11*LordAro , the maths undergrad, looks pointedly at you all
11:12<LordAro>that said, i miss actual numbers sometimes
11:12<Eddi|zuHause>you can happily do a maths degree without ever having to do a division :p
11:12<LordAro>i go through some lectures where the only numerical digit i see is the '1' at the bottom of a summation :p
11:13<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: how do you divide 100 by 16 without long division?
11:13<andythenorth>https://www.mathsisfun.com/long_division.html
11:14<supermop>i cant find an image macro of that particular simpsons line
11:14<supermop>andythenorth: its 6
11:14<supermop>100/16 is 6 and vis versa
11:14<Eddi|zuHause>x=100; y=0; while (x>0) { x-=16; y++; }
11:14<andythenorth>yes, that is nicer
11:14<supermop>was my rule of thumb for rmb while in china
11:14<LordAro>Eddi|zuHause: lol
11:14<@Alberth>x >= 16
11:15<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: beware of obiwans
11:16<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: anyway, for doing the division you can ask the giant calculator in front of you.
11:16<andythenorth>I do
11:16<Eddi|zuHause>you don't need "long" division for that :p
11:16<andythenorth>except in this case
11:16<andythenorth>1) I don’t understand the maths
11:17<andythenorth>2) OpenTTD doesn’t consistently produce the same output, so testing is hard
11:17<andythenorth>deliver 72t, expecting 36t result
11:17<andythenorth>sometimes I get 39t
11:17<andythenorth>sometimes 32t
11:17<andythenorth>I’ve re-run the same test from saves
11:17<andythenorth>I’ve run it about 50 times today
11:18<andythenorth>usually it’s 36 though
11:18<Eddi|zuHause>so you get 32t until the remainder builds up, then you get 39t once, and have to wait for the remainder to build up again
11:18<andythenorth>not when I’ve deleted the remainder code :P
11:18<Eddi|zuHause>then i don't know what you do
11:19<Eddi|zuHause>maybe some other variable changes?
11:19<andythenorth>the only explanation I can think of is vehicles arriving as the month changes
11:19<andythenorth>or deliveries coinciding with periodic processing in some other way
11:19<andythenorth>maybe cargo gets double-counted for a tick or something
11:21<supermop>andythenorth: http://krisdedecker.typepad.com/.a/6a00e0099229e88833011570f1437c970c-pi
11:22<andythenorth>supermop: nice :)
11:22<Eddi|zuHause>i feel like i've seen that picture before
11:23<andythenorth>I guess I’ll just leave the remainder code in place, untouched
11:23<andythenorth>the spurious looking results are likely just due to gradually increasing remainder
11:23<andythenorth>at least this changes nothing from existing FIRS
11:29<supermop>has anyone other than andy complained about the behavior?
11:29<supermop>just say you are simulating shift changes at the factory between amateurs and experienced crews
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11:33<supermop>should there be any vehicles that can drive around on these pavements but not on regular roads and streets?
11:33<supermop>like forklifts and container stackers?
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12:02<@Alberth>it's a matter of time before some vehicles can only drive on some of the available roads
12:03<@Alberth>otherwise NRT would be a whole lot simpler
12:04<andythenorth>supermop_: the remainder code was in response to complaints :)
12:04<andythenorth>not from me
12:04<andythenorth>complaints / valid bug reports
12:04<andythenorth>and yes, ‘industrial traffic’ should be a thing
12:04<andythenorth>maybe you could do HEQS 2?
12:05<supermop_>i will
12:05<supermop_>if you want and its nml
12:05<supermop_>im doing strings
12:06<supermop_>and wondering if it should be 'new road vehicle' or 'new ... vehicle'
12:12<andythenorth>RH has “New Heavy Haul Road Vehicles”
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12:13<@Alberth>hola
12:14<supermop_>andythenorth: thats fine, but currently chips pavement roads are just non-public driveways for regular road vehicles
12:14<andythenorth>supermop_: such is design :)
12:14<andythenorth>dunno
12:14<supermop_>so a cobblestone depot can build a regular bus
12:14<andythenorth>“new road vehicle” then? o_O
12:14<supermop_>thats what i have now
12:14<andythenorth>combinatorial systems like this are notoriously hard to make sense with
12:14<supermop_>but maybe it will be cool to change it
12:15<supermop_>dual mode trucks - whats the interesting angle for late game ?
12:16<supermop_>lower cost on wires? higher power?
12:16<supermop_>mostly electric but can limp on diesel/battery?
12:16<frosch123>moi
12:17<supermop_>the 'real' reasons of better air-quality/less noise in populated areas aren't really workable in game
12:19<supermop_>frosch123: i have a bridge surface problem
12:19<frosch123>your car dropped into water?
12:20<supermop_>http://imgur.com/a/25b7L
12:21<supermop_>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pizkwjafy
12:21<supermop_>http://imgur.com/a/LnzxQ
12:22<supermop_>i don't want the cobbles on there
12:22<frosch123>i think you added your "ground" sprites as "overlay" sprites
12:24<frosch123>for road you usually do not add any overlay sprites
12:24<supermop_>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/petgrpgoi
12:24<supermop_>thats the whole code if it helps
12:25<frosch123>"track_overlay" is always drawn
12:25<frosch123>on all tiles
12:26<frosch123>so, remove "track_overlay" from all roadtypes
12:26<supermop_>oooh
12:26<frosch123>overlay is for small things like tram rails on top of other roadtypes
12:26<frosch123>the overlay never includes the walkway
12:27<supermop_>ok
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12:42<supermop_>ok fixed now except for one ramp offset
12:43<supermop_>just need to fix level crossings then can ship
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12:46<supermop_>now the southeast halftile is the drive in truckstop
12:49<andythenorth>eh
12:49<supermop_>thats odd
12:49<andythenorth>mostly FIRS secondary industry outputs 4:4 (where there are 2 cargos)
12:49<andythenorth>some Steeltown industries, this is inappropriate
12:50<andythenorth>the rest of FIRS, ‘byproducts’ aren’t really a feature
12:50<andythenorth>whereas Steeltown they are
12:50<andythenorth>so Coke Oven: 6:2 Coke:Sulphur?
12:51<andythenorth>realism would be about 7:1 or less
12:51<andythenorth>but eh
12:54<supermop_>lunch brb
12:54<supermop_>or not
12:55<@Alberth>unless Sulphur is a sort of supplies, it becomes quite useless, I think
12:55<andythenorth>there is a story behind that :P
12:56<@Alberth>maybe as multiplier in "if multiple cargos are delivered, production steps up"
12:56<supermop_>i wonder why drive in stop suddenly showed up for just one of the half tiles, for only 3 of the roadtypes
12:56<andythenorth>TL;DR sulphur was a nice hack to reduce dependence on chemicals for tyre plant
12:56<@Alberth>ok
12:57<andythenorth>longer, amount of coke produced is same (6t per 8t coal), but the ‘waste’ (2t per 8t coal) is used to make tyres, replacing generic ‘chemicals’
12:58<@Alberth>sounds fair enough :)
12:58<andythenorth>it was a nice hack, but it means losing the neat 1:1 split that FIRS has always had where 2 cargos are produced at a secondary
12:58*andythenorth did it anyway
12:58<@Alberth>you don't want to become too predictable :)
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13:31<andythenorth>Alberth: how is your Steeltown game? o_O
13:31<andythenorth>and do you want a new one? :P
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13:33<@Alberth>I was wondering about that :)
13:33<andythenorth>I haven’t fixed any sprites, but I think the chains are good now
13:34<andythenorth>more changes are probably just pissing around with diminishing returns
13:34<andythenorth>but needs second or third opinions :)
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13:36<Eddi|zuHause>somebody stole the internet again
13:36<andythenorth>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/
13:36<Eddi|zuHause>for like 5 minutes this time, not 5 hours
13:39<@Alberth>I was about to do something about 324t steel / month :p
13:39<@Alberth>also, chips are annoying at not showing cargo
13:41<andythenorth>which cargos?
13:43<@Alberth>lots, at least slag
13:44<andythenorth>I’ll fix them
13:45<andythenorth>slag using fire cycle? :P
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27747 trunk/src/lang/korean.txt (2017-02-17 19:45:37 +0100 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from Eints:
13:45<@DorpsGek>korean: 7 changes by telk5093
13:45<andythenorth>http://c8.alamy.com/comp/EJX4M3/hot-iron-production-slag-being-poured-from-a-barrel-into-a-pit-in-EJX4M3.jpg
13:45<andythenorth>probably not :)
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13:49<@Alberth>would be nice if that was possible, slowly becoming black :)
13:49<andythenorth>I am putting in some fire pixels
13:49<andythenorth>but animating them is beyond me :)
13:49<andythenorth>CHIPS is quite special code
13:49<@Alberth>pig iron too, I think
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13:53<@Alberth>quicklime too, just tested
13:55<andythenorth>generic metal can probably serve for pig iron
13:57<andythenorth>hmm pig iron does not come in coils
13:57<andythenorth>nvm
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13:58<@Alberth>still need to touch about 1/3 of the map :)
14:01<@Alberth>let's try number 6275 :)
14:01<andythenorth>quicklime seems to go in barrels
14:04<andythenorth>Alberth: http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/chips/push/LATEST/
14:04*andythenorth will be shocked if that isn’t savegame safe
14:07<@Alberth>\o/
14:08<@Alberth>game is less than 5 minutes old :p
14:08<andythenorth>misses graphics for cement and soda ash cargos
14:09<andythenorth>but those aren’t the main focus
14:10<andythenorth>ha I should add explosives graphics :)
14:11<@Alberth>:)
14:12<andythenorth>sadly just crates
14:12<andythenorth>this won’t work at TTD scale http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/ellathemoose/images/9/9f/Minecraft-tnt-block-packshot_size_410.jpeg/revision/latest?cb=20120802165820
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14:21<@Alberth>mega explosive packs :)
14:21<@Alberth>container full of them
14:21<@Alberth>ugh, loooong bridge @ 32km/h
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15:54<andythenorth>Alberth: pipe and explosives graphics added… http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/chips/push/LATEST/
15:57<andythenorth>sulphur next :) http://l7.alamy.com/zooms/df2f9bd221574acc84f5358741acd98b/sulfur-pile-at-north-vancouver-british-columbia-canada-b35dh5.jpg
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16:01<@Alberth>looks like very good colour :)
16:01<@Alberth>or rather, unique colour :)
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16:07<berndj>is "service all the things" an established game type?
16:10<andythenorth>added Sulphur and Soda Ash cargos http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/chips/push/LATEST/
16:11<@Alberth>berndj: sure
16:12<berndj>i find i run out of cash and have to wait for some lines to make some money before i can build again, at an early-ish stage
16:12<@Alberth>thanks andy, will add it to the game tomorrow, not sure how much time I will have then
16:13<berndj>later (assuming i don't go bankrupt) i can't keep up in click rate
16:13<@Alberth>yep, that's normal :)
16:13<@Alberth>you can use more expensive-to-run vehicles if you like to keep up clicking longer :)
16:15<@Alberth>some people aim for max money, personally, I lose interest in money as soon as I get more than I spend :)
16:15<@Alberth>nn andythenorth
16:15<andythenorth>bye
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16:16<andythenorth>anyone want to tell me how long ships should be, based on a ‘proper’ dimetric projection of a circle?
16:19<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8355/ships-length.png
16:23<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8356/ships-length-2.png
16:23<andythenorth>the – view blatantly exceeds a projected circle
16:23<andythenorth>but the ratio I’m using is same as for trains, RVs
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16:37<andythenorth>https://i.ytimg.com/vi/aFg6F9mcV78/hqdefault.jpg
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: so how accurate is this description? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXUleq-Hd6c
16:44<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8357/ships-length-3.png
16:44<andythenorth>ship should be more like 86px
16:44<andythenorth>which is about 1.33 * the 64 px length
16:45<andythenorth>might be coincidence, might be trigonometry
16:48<andythenorth>hmm trig says 74px
16:50<andythenorth>@calc 2*(64/sqrt(3))
16:50<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 73.9008344563
16:54<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: in the – view you should cut every 4th pixel to have better rotational scale
16:55<andythenorth>based on the original baseset train ratio?
16:55<andythenorth>or what? :)
16:55<andythenorth>original base set ships are bonkers, they get shorter in – view :P
16:57<andythenorth>original base set ships are bonkers, they get shorter in – view :P
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>@calc sqrt(3)*16
16:57<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 27.7128129211
16:58<Eddi|zuHause>@calc sqrt(5)*16
16:58<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 35.77708764
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>@calc sqrt(5)
16:59<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 2.2360679775
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the "cutting every 4th pixel" is a result of making the diagonal of a square 1.5 times the side of the square (rounding from sqrt(2))
17:01*andythenorth needs a picture :)
17:02<andythenorth>but I get the principle
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>can't make pictures
17:03<andythenorth>comes out at 86px I think
17:03<andythenorth>for a vehicle that is 2 tiles (64px)
17:03<andythenorth>64px is measured along x axis though :P
17:03<andythenorth>not longitudinally along the projection of the vehicle
17:05<Eddi|zuHause>@calc sqrt(5)*1.5*32
17:05<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 107.33126292
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>@calc (445-275)/2
17:08<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 85
17:11<Eddi|zuHause>@calc (486-230)/2
17:11<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 128
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 128/sqrt(2)
17:12<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 90.5096679919
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 128/1.5
17:12<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 85.3333333333
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>i think that's the value you're going for
17:13<andythenorth>it’s almost exactly what I got from drawing an ellipse in photoshop
17:13<Eddi|zuHause>the diagonal of a square of length 2 is 128px, so length 2 is 90px (for "exact" sqrt(2)) or 85 (for "rounded" sqrt(2))
17:13*andythenorth can’t do long division, but paid attention in technical drawing geometry :P
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>somewhere inbetween those two values you should probably try to get your ship
17:15<andythenorth>to confirm, this is for the – view length, measured on x axis
17:15<Wolf01><Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: so how accurate is this description? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXUleq-Hd6c <- totally
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>this also matches my "cut every 4th pixel" theorem
17:15<andythenorth>[for avoidance of doubt]
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>yes
17:15<andythenorth>it fits an old rule I learnt for isometric triangles
17:15<andythenorth>1.33
17:15<Wolf01>BTW, I live in the back garden of Venice :P
17:16<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: well, nobody actually lives IN venice. it's all tourists...
17:16<andythenorth>@calc 64 * 1.333
17:16<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 85.312
17:17<andythenorth>@calc 64 / 0.75
17:17<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 85.3333333333
17:17<andythenorth>it reduces to the same
17:17<andythenorth>it’s all triangles
17:17<andythenorth>ok, well that’s something
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>illuminati confirmed!
17:18<andythenorth>it means either ships are quite short in – view (86px instead of 128px, big reduction)
17:18<andythenorth>or I make them > 2 tiles long
17:19<andythenorth>@calc 128 * .75
17:19<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 96
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17:19<andythenorth>or I distort the true scale, as per the rest of the base set :P
17:21<andythenorth>or I distort the true scale, as per the rest of the base set :)
17:21*andythenorth has flappy connection
17:23<Eddi|zuHause>it's fine, means we can read everything twice :p
17:23<andythenorth>such fun
17:24<Wolf01>Oh, I thought it was my problem
17:26<andythenorth>hmm
17:27<andythenorth>so with the correct lengths, the \ / views are even longer than Squid :)
17:27<andythenorth>and the purpose of a new set was to shorten those lengths, as they look wrong in game :)
17:27*andythenorth has drawn the ship to the new lenght
17:28<andythenorth>it’s quite obviously rotationally correct
17:33*andythenorth will sleep on it
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19:36<Wolf01>'night
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---Logclosed Sat Feb 18 00:00:50 2017