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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-02-19

---Logopened Sun Feb 19 00:00:51 2017
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00:39<snadge>damn my highlight went off but my scrollback doesn't go back that far :P
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00:42<snadge>ahh okay, extmidi driver.. you don't really need it, it seems.. it respects the default
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02:55<andythenorth>o/
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03:45<florian_>Hello i have a problem i became not a Validation Code to my Email
03:46<andythenorth>for...?
03:47<florian_>register to openttd Website
03:47<andythenorth>check spam?
03:48<florian_>have it is nothing :(
03:52<andythenorth>I just tried a password reset on my account, I didn’t receive mail yet
03:52<andythenorth>might be slow
03:52<andythenorth>might be email isn’t delivering
03:54<florian_>yes... hmm no admin online?
03:58<andythenorth>bit early to ask them
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04:53<TrueBrain-Bot>turns out the system didn't deliver any email since early January 😄
04:54<TrueBrain-Bot>it "should" work now (tm)
04:55<andythenorth>is there a delivery queue of old ones? o_O
04:57<andythenorth>I just requested a password reset, got that
04:57<andythenorth>did 2 earlier this morning (just to test), they’re not delivered
04:58<TrueBrain-Bot>they will never be delivered
04:58<TrueBrain-Bot>exim was not running, so no queue was created
04:58<andythenorth>ok
04:58<andythenorth>[shrug]
05:00<TrueBrain-Bot>this part of the website is running on such old machine .. its horrible 😛
05:01<andythenorth>is time for rebuild? o_O
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05:03<andythenorth>hi Alberth
05:05<TrueBrain-Bot>well, that time came and passed like 5 years ago 😄
05:09<andythenorth>kill it with fire :)
05:13<TrueBrain-Bot>then people also complain 😛
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05:23<LordAro>TrueBrain-Bot: oops.
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07:19*andythenorth wants fake scandinavian town names
07:20<andythenorth>real town names I find weird
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07:21<frosch123>it's ok, if the towns are small enough to not know them
07:23<andythenorth>I don’t know any Finnish towns :)
07:24<frosch123>i think ln mentioned some town that is not helsinki somewhen
07:26<andythenorth>I finished the cb37 stuff in FIRS http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/
07:26<andythenorth>definitely better
07:26<@Alberth>lol :)
07:27<@Alberth>someone wants his pony :D
07:27<andythenorth>obvious eh?
07:27<@Alberth>the problem with town names in my experience is that their geographic location is completely messed up
07:28<@Alberth>so they confuse more than help
07:28<@Alberth>I am working on the pony :)
07:28<frosch123>maybe your geography skills are too high :)
07:29*andythenorth playing the bee
07:30<@Alberth>the town names are too familiar :p
07:31*andythenorth so bored of making everything TL6 by default
07:31<andythenorth>what else can I do?
07:31<@Alberth>increase freight multiplier
07:31<@Alberth>use maglev
07:32<andythenorth>not use Iron Horse brit roster? o_O
07:32<andythenorth>winning idea imho
07:32<@Alberth>if that counts as "else", sure
07:34<andythenorth>maybe I try Finnish train set
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08:46<supermop_home>yo
08:49<@Alberth>oy!
08:49<@Alberth>more home persons!
08:50<supermop_home>hmm no posts on docklands thread
08:52<andythenorth>add a link to https://www.openttd.org/en/download-ratt
08:54<supermop_home>I guess I should have a development thread to take suggestions and reports
08:54<andythenorth>it might just look ‘done'
08:54<andythenorth>I get barely any comments on Road Hog or CHIPS
08:54<supermop_home>but I don't know whats left to do other than improve level crossings
08:54<andythenorth>‘the stuning silence of a successful release'
08:54<supermop_home>andythenorth: http://pdussart.tripod.com/Festival2004ART300CDV.jpg
08:55<andythenorth>isn’t it
08:55<supermop_home>there do seem to be a few old diesel passenger trams
08:56<supermop_home>and handulf of tiny yard switchers
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08:56<andythenorth>prototype for everything :)
08:56<andythenorth>decide what you want in game, you can find it later on google
08:57<supermop_home>and a few modern LR dmu
08:57<andythenorth>we need an equivalent term to retcon
08:57<supermop_home>I want one 20th C thing that runs on tramway without wires
08:57<andythenorth>loads
08:58<andythenorth>have a look at Isle of Man
08:58<supermop_home>cane
08:58<supermop_home>https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2322/2271104234_82a77dc129_z.jpg
08:58<supermop_home>i think my toothbrush has more HP than that
08:59<supermop_home>heqs steam trams look too daunting to convert from nfo for me atm
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09:02<supermop_home>accidentally posted link to cane tram instead of ratt dl
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09:04<andythenorth>QLD sugar trams?
09:04<andythenorth>India: Darjeeling - Himalya?
09:04<supermop_home>going to queens for a beer stay cation in a few hours so might not get much done on this this wknd anyway
09:04<andythenorth>Romania - forest railways?
09:05<supermop_home>watch your head: http://www.buffalocreekandgauley.com/STRUCTURES/WIDEN/MineHead/Coal_Tram.jpg
09:07<FLHerne>supermop_home: The LNER had these contraptions (1930) http://www.lner.info/locos/Y/y10.php
09:07<andythenorth>I have loads saved for HEQS and RH
09:07<V453000>supermop_home: glorious
09:07<andythenorth>supermop: what exactly are you looking for?
09:07<FLHerne>supermop_home: And these, which look easier to draw http://www.lner.info/locos/Y/y1y3.php
09:08<supermop_home>i wonder when cat. started to supplant trolley wire for non-street lines
09:09<supermop_home>i think its actually useful distinction for nrt, seeing as people want speed limits
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09:09<supermop_home>i'vee seen trams in melb do about 50mph on trolley wire
09:09<FLHerne>supermop_home: And then some diesels with tramway skirts (http://d240vprofozpi.cloudfront.net/co/GER/wisbech/drewry_kids.jpg)
09:09<supermop_home>but those are standard gauge trams
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09:10<supermop_home>FLHerne yeah look good
09:10<supermop_home>just one diesel from 1930 - forever would be fine
09:11<FLHerne>supermop_home: Oh, you need NG ?
09:11<supermop_home>siemens will sell you a dmu combino http://ymtram.mashke.org/germany/nordhausen/photos/nordhaus14470wiki.jpg
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09:12<supermop_home>FLHerne i don't need anything, but openttd trams are pretty narrow on space
09:13<FLHerne>Eh, 04s should look fine then
09:13<FLHerne>https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-MvEJQhX80-8/V6OaJ__hfKI/AAAAAAAFL08/wcyf5QcYoZ8rC5wHyS2hqNaG1W6IOp0hQCLcB/s1600/Wisbech%2Band%2BUpwell%2B20th%2BMay%2B1966%2Band%2Bthe%2Blast%2Btram%2Bfrom%2BUpwell%2Btrundles%2Balongside%2BElm%2BRd.jpg
09:13<supermop_home>dockland yards would just look nicer if rh or heqs had diesel switchers in later years
09:14<supermop_home>other idea: regular tram set but depot refit to have tiny switcher luging tram across unpowered segments
09:15<supermop_home>FLHerne I'm not sure that I am going to draw and code these yet, if I can trick andy into adding them to RH
09:17<andythenorth>I considered diesel trams in post 1940 RH
09:17<andythenorth>but no
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09:19<supermop_home>trolley trucks?
09:20<andythenorth>plausible futurism
09:20<andythenorth>I am avoiding working on RH at the moment :)
09:20<andythenorth>just found this v
09:21<andythenorth>http://www.railpictures.net/photo/607136/
09:21<andythenorth>-v
09:21<andythenorth>wtf is andesite
09:21<supermop_home>no idea
09:21<supermop_home>only saw that word 2 days ago
09:22<andythenorth>some kind of feldspar?
09:23<supermop_home>I guess it's worth mining for something
09:23<andythenorth>doesn’t do much, just gravel, statues, some tiles
09:23<andythenorth>basic construction uses
09:23<supermop_home>ddmt straight from the mine?
09:23<supermop_home>bdmt
09:24<supermop_home>oh yeah a tile I was speccing for a client had that as an option
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10:03<supermop_home>forgot how expensive these 2cc locomotives are
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10:34<andythenorth>now what?
10:34*andythenorth is bored :)
10:44<@Alberth>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/puvyjgoyr do these strings make sense?
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10:49<frosch123>CARGO_SHORT instead of CARGO_TINY?
10:49<frosch123>not sure
10:49<frosch123>but 0000-03FF with CARGO_TINY but without "waiting" is weird
10:50<frosch123>how do you add the ", not accepting"?
10:50<frosch123>or is that only an example?
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10:55<supermop_home>so i am playing a quick game
10:55<supermop_home>but then I noticed there are too many dead end valleys and factories on top of mountains
10:56<supermop_home>so now I'm spending more time correcting the landscape than playing in SE
10:57<@Alberth>frosch123: those are the strings in the language file. I think it needs a smart ordering to get the ", not accepting" easily
10:58<@Alberth>CARGO_SHORT is much better indeed
10:59<@Alberth>ie foo->stockpiled and foo->stockpiled + 1
10:59<frosch123>i am not sure, but i recall there explicitly being no space before the RAW_STRING
11:00<@Alberth>there wasn't in the lang file indeed
11:01<@Alberth>removed
11:04<@Alberth>fixed table of stringID entries would work too
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11:06<frosch123>hmm, working with 3 different vcs gets confusing somewhen
11:07<frosch123>svn s<backspace><backspace><backspace><backspace><backspace>gi<backspace><backspace>hg st
11:10<@Alberth>I am mostly confused between hg and git :)
11:10<@Alberth>for some reason, git is easier to type
11:11<frosch123>luckily widelands has an update script, so i do not have to deal with bzr directly :p
11:11<@Alberth>I don't do much svn any more, so that's one less :)
11:12<@Alberth>:o bzr, I played with that early, around 2007/2008
11:12<@Alberth>needed one for openttd, svn failed, git looked too complicated, so I picked bzr at random first
11:13<@Alberth>later I found hg
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11:22*andythenorth had a brief adventure with bzr, after svn
11:23<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: make a unified "vcs" script that detects which .xyz subdirectory is present
11:24<Eddi|zuHause>and maps the commands appropriately
11:29<frosch123>would it support "git qseries"?
11:33<@Alberth>git stash list :p
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11:45<frosch123>when did we remove dynamic strings from tab 31? :p
11:47<frosch123>july 2008
11:48<frosch123>apparently noai was started before that then, otherwise it would not have dead code refering to them
11:51<@Alberth>the noai competition was in spring 2008 iirc
11:52<@Alberth>started visiting #openttd end of 2007, and became dev spring 2009
11:52<frosch123>indeed, wiki page was created march 2007
11:53<frosch123>i thought everything was one year later
11:53<@Alberth>you lost a whole year! :p
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12:20<andythenorth>so I’m thinking of expanding FIRS docs....
12:20<andythenorth>a bit more gameplay guide / explanation
12:20<andythenorth>good idea? Or leave it to people to do in OpenTTD wiki?
12:20<andythenorth>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/get_started.html
12:23<frosch123>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/yeti/wiki/PlayGuide <- you mean like that?
12:24<frosch123>not sure how useful such pages are. people who can read can also figure it out themself
12:29<andythenorth>yes, that
12:29<andythenorth>my 7 year old says FIRS ‘makes his head twizzle'
12:30<supermop_home>mission accomplished?
12:30<andythenorth>I was explaining how port-type industries worked, and wondered if that should be in the guide :)
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12:34<andythenorth>maybe an extra paragraph on pages like this http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html
12:34<andythenorth>for those who do read
12:34<andythenorth>e.g. this has nothing currently http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/industries.html
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12:41<andythenorth>eh instead of ‘Industry’ substring in the titles, I could use ‘Port-type Industry’, ‘Primary Industry’ etc
12:42<andythenorth>confusing detail?
12:42<@Alberth>not sure what you want to say about an industry
12:42<andythenorth>me neither
12:42<andythenorth>I can’t imagine I’d ever sit and read the docs to learn about each industry
12:42*andythenorth isn’t made that way
12:43<@Alberth>economies, I can see the value. You can say what the main chain is, or how to go about building a transport system, which ones first, etc
12:43<andythenorth>not even sure I like the ‘Ratios’ details in the industries page
12:44<@Alberth>for industries, the various pictures you dug up would be nic
12:44<@Alberth>*nice
12:44<@Alberth>gives them a realistic flavour
12:44<@Alberth>I assume ratios are copied from the industry window? would be fine, as reference
12:45<andythenorth>because they’re removed from industry, I moved them into docs as some sugar for players who really have to know that stuff
12:45<andythenorth>industry window *
12:45<@Alberth>but otherwise, industries aren't that interesting
12:46<andythenorth>that page is mostly to show pictures
12:46<andythenorth>cargos page is even less interesting, now that we have cargo flow .dot diagrams
12:46<andythenorth>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/cargos.html
12:46<@Alberth>ah, right, numbers for the "need to know every fricking detail" people :)
12:46<andythenorth>yeah those people
12:47<@Alberth>for cargoes, links to definitions or uses, eg wikipedia or so
12:47<@Alberth>nice for translators
12:51<andythenorth>maybe people could reverse engineer the ratios? o_O
12:51<andythenorth>by precisely delivering 100t / month of each cargo to see effect
12:57*andythenorth experiments
12:57<andythenorth>nah, ratios don’t need to be in docs
12:59<@Alberth>they're in the source already :p
13:02<andythenorth>too true :)
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13:03<BobbyG>hello TYCOONERS
13:04<frosch123>we are no tycoons, we are anti-capitalists, who provide transport services for the greater good
13:05<BobbyG>:)
13:05<BobbyG>any admins around ?
13:05<frosch123>for google mail? unlikely
13:06<BobbyG>so if we have issues with some players .. where is the right place to get help ?
13:06<@Alberth>server owner, usually
13:08<BobbyG>well i called for admins several times ... but no response ... Seems that we have to learn to live with abusive players .. nevermind ... its just a game
13:10<@Alberth>or find a better server
13:10<frosch123>what your server has no 24/7 support? you should definitely request a refund
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13:40<andythenorth>"FIRS is a marathon not a sprint”
13:40*andythenorth has much to do
13:42<supermop_home>temperate basic/temperate/oceanic 2cc trains/swedish houses/ogfx+rvs/Vietnamese names
13:42<supermop_home>D. Allan and Co. doesn't really sound that Vietnamese
13:43<supermop_home>though his aviator sunglasses seem appropriate
13:43<supermop_home>except it's 1935
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13:55<frosch123>https://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/diffs/stringlimit/ <- well, that was way easier than expected
13:56<frosch123>the hardest was to add two dozen of newgrf to a testgame to get the string demand over 6k
13:56<frosch123>i am still puzzled how people manage to do that in a regular game
13:57<andythenorth>me too :)
13:58<andythenorth>do you need me to test it?
13:58<frosch123>it does not increase any limits per newgrf
13:58<frosch123>only the total amount
13:59<andythenorth>ok
13:59<frosch123>for the per-grf limit i have to look into some newgrf spec details
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14:14<@Alberth>didn't see anything weird
14:15<@Alberth>nah, you need xussr and was, those eat loads of strings :)
14:15<@Alberth>perhaps av8/9 too
14:23<andythenorth>bbl
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15:12<_dp_>does it increase amount of strings for gs too?
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15:14<frosch123>yes, 2k->64k
15:14<Wolf01>o/
15:15<_dp_>oh, nice xD
15:15<frosch123>don't say you reached the 2k limit :p
15:17<_dp_>not quite, but I'm using them to save string arguments slots, so there is no such thing as too many strings :p
15:18<_dp_>have about 500 for % from 0 to 100 in 4 colors for example
15:21<_dp_>and were thinking of smth even crazier like doing strings for all color combinations
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15:42<Eddi|zuHause>isn't that what string parameters are for?
15:42<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: string parameters are limited to like 20
15:43<frosch123>which is not enough for a 32x10 spreadsheet
15:43<frosch123>which would need 320 parameters
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: next patch, turn the text stack into an actual stack (with like a "push" operation and no silly limits)
15:43<frosch123>the limit here is the command packet
15:44<frosch123>which was not designed for file transfer
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15:44<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: a real stack would be troublesome for translations, which reorder parameters
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15:56<_dp_>having separate string for each line in town window would solve it too
15:56<_dp_>that's pretty much the only place right now that needs more than 20 parameters
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15:59<_dp_>and it's not like I'm trying to show a spreadsheet there, just one cb requirements takes at 3-4 parameters normally (name, delivered, required, stored)
15:59<_dp_>also 1-2 more if you want colored numbers
16:00<_dp_>with 20 limit it's like 4 types of cargo max
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16:04<frosch123>i think some gs once wanted to display stats for all cargos and all companies in the town gui
16:04<frosch123>so a 32x15 spreadsheet :)
16:04<frosch123>no idea how many stats per cell
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16:07<frosch123>anyway, i guess essentially we need a method to attach a story book page to a town or industry window
16:08<andythenorth>then $someone will want to provide production history for an industry :)
16:08<andythenorth>what a boring use of a story :)
16:08<frosch123>maximum of 64k story page elements though :p
16:09<andythenorth>can story pages have hrefs? :P
16:09*andythenorth considers moving docs into the game
16:10<_dp_>hm, mb not industry but town growing history would be quite useful xD
16:10<andythenorth>the original font is soooo readable for large blocks of text :P
16:10<frosch123>story pages have references for stuff to scroll to
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16:10<Eddi|zuHause>rtf or html? :p
16:11<frosch123>we have no chart element yet for the storybook page
16:11<frosch123>but maybe html5 would work
16:11<_dp_>just allow monospace font there :p
16:12<andythenorth>are there off-the-shelf rendering engines we could use? :P
16:12<frosch123>andythenorth: so far we run pretty bad with icu :p
16:12<frosch123>harfbuzz patch is as needed as sdl2 :)
16:13<andythenorth>embed webkit :P
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>wtf is a harfbuzz?
16:13<andythenorth>or…opera :o
16:13<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: the icu layout replacement
16:13<andythenorth>run phantomjs as an additional app, and load html5 elements as pngs from it :P
16:14<frosch123>we could also maybe link factorio
16:14<frosch123>factorio can play video and audio
16:14<frosch123>so, maybe factorios factories should be embedded into industries
16:14<andythenorth>this is true
16:14<andythenorth>then I could stop worrying about production code
16:14<andythenorth>other people could do it
16:15<andythenorth>two-level MMO
16:15<andythenorth>factories on one level, transport on the other
16:15<andythenorth>virtual currency
16:15<andythenorth>gold farming
16:15<andythenorth>DLC
16:15<andythenorth>we’ll all be rich
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16:23<andythenorth>well I liked the idea :P
16:24<andythenorth>orudge: still christmas on the forums? o_O
16:24<andythenorth>my smileys have hats
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>it was really cold until a few days ago
16:34<Wolf01>https://imgur.com/a/Ewhsv about factorio... this is insane
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16:43<Taede>**
16:44<Wolf01>I don't know what's the point on a game whihc plays itself :S
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16:45<@planetmaker>the meta game ;)
16:46<@planetmaker>you play it by playing with the rules of self-playing ;)
16:48<Wolf01>Just play a video on youtube
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: surely the best moments in AI development are the moments right before it decides to go skynet on everybody
16:48<Wolf01>:D
16:49<@planetmaker>hehe, jo
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19:09<Wolf01>'night
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---Logclosed Mon Feb 20 00:00:29 2017