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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-02-20

---Logopened Mon Feb 20 00:00:29 2017
---Daychanged Mon Feb 20 2017
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03:19<V453000>puny humanz'
03:20<V453000>morning have good
03:20<V453000>or else
03:20<Supercheese>ya
03:20<Supercheese>Have indeed good
03:21<V453000>g
03:21<V453000>do you even automate?
03:21<Supercheese>Yes, Otto is my mate
03:22<V453000>dayummm
03:22<V453000>some new mods comin?
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06:25<Wolf01>Moin
06:29<Wolf01>https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/a6bQAN8_460s.jpg eh, they will go skynet in microseconds
06:31<__ln__>that would be more interesting if it was properly sourced
06:31<Wolf01>http://www.sciencealert.com/google-s-new-ai-has-learned-to-become-highly-aggressive-in-stressful-situations
06:34<Wolf01>Three laws of robotic needed as soon as possible
06:34<__ln__>they should adapt it to be an openttd AI
06:35<Wolf01>It's already pointing on starcraft, just to learn some warfare strategies
06:37<Wolf01>Btw, it seem that intelligence brings to war, which is a nonsense
06:38<crem>I hoped they finally they built a robor which can gather real apples from tree. But no, it's just some pixels on 8x16 screen.
06:39<Wolf01>The principle is the same, we played with 320x200 games and even inferior resolution :P
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09:21<Alkel_U3>Wolf01: https://youtu.be/dLRLYPiaAoA
09:23<Wolf01>Wtf?
09:29<Alkel_U3>in relation to that google's AI :-)
09:37<Wolf01>It's too psychedelic, I can't follow it
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11:12<dark_pingus>hi I'm looking for documentation on scenario file. I am interested to the structure of scenario file.
11:17<Wolf01>https://git.openttd.org/?p=trunk.git;a=tree;f=docs;hb=HEAD you can find some docs here
11:20<dark_pingus>thank you
11:21<@Alberth>o/
11:22<Wolf01>o/
11:22<dark_pingus>Wolf01, seems that the link had a lot of info! so probably you have really helped me! thank you again
11:23<@Alberth>not so much about the scenario file format
11:23<@Alberth>it's just a savegame, docs is the code, in src/saveload
11:23<Wolf01>You should read it while looking at the code, at least it explains what are the numbers :P
11:24<dark_pingus>yes ... these numbers was driving me mad ... I was trying somekind of reverse engineering ... using simple scenario and building a "road" at time...
11:25<dark_pingus>I want to realize a tool to put a "city" in a given place in the scenario in an automatic way. BUT: proportionally to lat and long...
11:26<LordAro>sounds like you want a gamescript
11:27<@Alberth>there is a patch "reproducable <something> generation" that also aims to create scenarios
11:27<@Alberth>hi hi sirt Aro
11:27<@Alberth>*sir
11:27<Wolf01>He's a Sith
11:28<@Alberth>:O
11:28<LordAro>:o
11:28<LordAro>o/
11:28<@Alberth>unexpected qualities, just like that :)
11:30<Wolf01>https://science.slashdot.org/story/17/02/19/2330251/serious-computer-glitches-can-be-caused-by-cosmic-rays <- I always said that
11:32<@Alberth>ha, we didn't leave bugs, you are affected by cosmic rays, or energy fields :)
11:33<Wolf01>Or "you are holding it with the wrong hand", that works too
11:33<@Alberth>lol
11:36<@Alberth>I once read about error rates of cpus, I think, and while it was above 99.9<something>, given the high rate of these devices, you'd expect that errors do creep in sometimes
11:36<@Alberth>(likely it had more 9 figures :p )
11:36<@Alberth>*digits
11:37<dark_pingus>LordAro I want to realize something that given a scenario with given lat e long, and a file of lat-long and name it puts the cities on the scenario ...
11:38<LordAro>i think a GS should be able to do that
11:38<LordAro>probably can't take an arbitrary file as input though
11:39<Wolf01>As I studied electronics, and knowing that IRL nothing works like a charm, it's more like an over-voltage of any kind, maybe even a bad ground connection and the bit-shift was triggered with a static from a guy with a pullover/pile jacket
11:39*LordAro shifts Wolf01
11:39*Wolf01 static-stabs LordAro
11:40*LordAro dies
11:41<Wolf01>Nah, just paralyzed
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12:18<dark_pingus>someone has other hints about the load/save code documentation ?
12:22<Wolf01>The savegame/scenario might be compressed
12:23<Wolf01>But if you don't need to use it outside the game...
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12:33<dark_pingus>I have disabled compression to "none" in openttd.cfg
12:34<dark_pingus>So, now I can use an hex editor to see save/scenario file contents
12:42<@Alberth>sounds a bit complicated if you can also read the source code
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12:44<dark_pingus>yeah I am just reading source code ...
12:44<dark_pingus>(use the source luke! :-) )
12:45<dark_pingus>but really I will love to have some nice documentation to read :-)
12:47<dark_pingus>or maybe some nice comment embedded into the source code ! :-)
12:49<@Alberth>it's not a simple offset format
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12:50<@Alberth>it's also not a fixed format, it changes every now and then
12:50<@Alberth>fields change or get added or get removed
12:50<dark_pingus>Hi Alberth are you telling me that the scenario/save game format are unstable ?
12:51<dark_pingus>are changing from a version to next one ?
12:51<@planetmaker>yes. Even more often
12:51<@planetmaker>good evening :)
12:51<dark_pingus>good evening ...
12:51<Wolf01>We are at version 195 actually iirc :P
12:51<dark_pingus>wow... :-(
12:51<@planetmaker>^^ around that, yes
12:52<@Alberth>extern const uint16 SAVEGAME_VERSION = 195; ///< Current savegame version of OpenTTD. <-- dark_pingus we're at version 195
12:52<@planetmaker>but it's all documented in the source. And also how it changes
12:52<@Alberth>see saveload.cpp, line 267
12:52<@Alberth>hi hi planetmaker!
12:52<dark_pingus>Can I ask why you/they are changing format so often ?
12:52<@Alberth>new features
12:53<dark_pingus>ok but I have seen "object" hooks into the code ... I was figuring that in a such way you can stabilize the format...
12:53<@Alberth>not to mention it's a save game, so it follows the internal storage format of openttd
12:53<@Alberth>so you pretty much have to rebuild a lot of openttd
12:54<dark_pingus>And now are three hour that I am reading code to look for the internal format! :-)
12:54<@planetmaker>why? A stable format itself is no gain
12:54<@planetmaker>What we have is the 'promise' that we load savegames from all older versions
12:54<@Alberth>a loader and saver routine exists, it's openttd
12:54<dark_pingus>planetmaker, why are you telling me so'? I am customed to have developing version and stable version ...
12:55<@planetmaker>yes, of the programme
12:55<dark_pingus>if you can't port your data from a version to the next one
12:55<@planetmaker>we can and do
12:55<dark_pingus>this seems to me a bad thing
12:56<dark_pingus>a really bad one.
12:56<@planetmaker>you fail to explain why :)
12:56<@Alberth>old versions get loaded and converted in afterload
12:56<dark_pingus>Alberth ok
12:56<@planetmaker>what's bad about changing savegame format if we can load any version we ever created?
12:57<@Alberth>it's not simple, probably :)
12:57<dark_pingus>planetmaker: nothing if you maintain compatibility with the data previuosly saved
12:57<@planetmaker>we do. And even beyond the start of this project into prehistoric age
12:57<@Alberth>all the way back to 200<something>
12:58<dark_pingus>ok this is good... I have misunderstood your words .
12:58<@Alberth>as well as the original game
12:58<dark_pingus>THIS IS AN IDEA!
12:58<@Alberth>no it's 4 words :)
12:58<dark_pingus>I can start to read the initial version...
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12:58<dark_pingus>probably is more simple
12:58<@Alberth>quak
12:59<@Alberth>my guess is, it's more confusing
12:59<Wolf01>Quak
12:59<dark_pingus>quak!:-)
12:59<frosch123>moi
12:59<@Alberth>dark_pingus: look at a few commits that change the line I indicated
12:59<@Alberth>that should give you a good idea how changes are handled
13:02<dark_pingus>true
13:05<dark_pingus>nice ...
13:05<dark_pingus>I will google to look for external tools to manage the scenarios :-(
13:11<@Alberth>search tt-forums.net
13:13<dark_pingus>thank you!
13:13<@Alberth>but basically, there is only openttd that reads/writes save games and scenarios
13:13<@Alberth>there are patches for openttd, and probably a few game scripts
13:20<dark_pingus>I see :-(
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13:20<dark_pingus>se seems that to have an object automatically placed on map, I have to :
13:21<dark_pingus>get the loadsave ccp
13:21<dark_pingus>understand it
13:21<dark_pingus>then understand the resulting data structure
13:22<dark_pingus>and you have told me that these things change frequently ...
13:22<dark_pingus>:-(
13:22<dark_pingus>I would daresay that I am unfortunate! :-)
13:24<frosch123>openttd savegame are not self-descriptive
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13:24<frosch123>you cannot make a tool that can process all savegames there may ever be
13:24<frosch123>only openttd can read its savegames, noone else
13:24<@planetmaker>o/
13:25<@planetmaker>it's an idea which frequently surfaces, though
13:25<dark_pingus>yes I want it but I have found really few docs ...
13:25<frosch123>a rare planetmaker :)
13:25<frosch123>dark_pingus: https://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/texts/printhunk.c <- that is as much as you can get
13:25<dark_pingus>well now I have some other things to do ... but thank you all!
13:28<dark_pingus>thank you frosch123
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13:36<frosch123>damn... now there is a second submission for the title game
13:36<frosch123>i hopes we could get away without having to vote
13:37<frosch123>meh, and it's close to the troll submission :/
13:38<@Alberth>:(
13:39<@planetmaker>:(
13:43<frosch123>well, forum poll it is then
13:43<frosch123>no secret vote, but good enough
13:45<LordAro>lol
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14:04<Wolf01>Ha! "for the lulz"
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14:18<andythenorth>o/
14:18<Wolf01>o/
14:23<@Alberth>o/
14:29<@Alberth>0800-0CFF looks like an off-by 100, shouldn't that be 0800-0BFF ?
14:50*andythenorth will count on fingers :P
14:55<frosch123>Alberth: yes :)
14:56<@Alberth>:o lots of fingers andy
14:59<@planetmaker>millipede or so ;)
14:59<frosch123>Alberth: that was an accident when forking
15:00<frosch123>parallelized pixel pushing
15:01<@Alberth>:D
15:04<@Alberth>Even milllipede isn't enough, only 750 legs
15:04<@Alberth>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millipede
15:07<@planetmaker>too bad :) But I learnt something new :)
15:09<andythenorth>it’s planetmaker :)
15:10<andythenorth>that title game needs diagonal corners
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15:10<andythenorth>pixel N glyphs are poor :P
15:10<@planetmaker>:)
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15:13<andythenorth>meanwhile I recommend this (the song more than the video) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UmOY6ek_Y4
15:16<@Alberth>tempted to write func(void) instead of func(), written too much C lately :p
15:28<frosch123>maybe try k&r c for once
15:29<@Alberth>ha, not old enough :p
15:29<@Alberth>ANSI had already taken over C when I learned it
15:30<frosch123>i also only learned it when encounting it in production, and i wondered, why does this even compile :p
15:30<frosch123>+about
15:31<frosch123>i never learned fortran either, but somehow it reminded me about it
15:31*andythenorth is still learning python :P
15:32<andythenorth>devloloper
15:32*andythenorth wishes PHP_CEO was his twitter account :P
15:33<andythenorth>https://twitter.com/PHP_CEO
15:33<@planetmaker>is func(void) not good in C++? or talking about python, Alberth ?
15:33<frosch123>andythenorth: anything that writes reserved words in all-uppercase, you can safely ignore
15:34<frosch123>planetmaker: only if you put "extern C" in front :)
15:34*andythenorth should knuckle down and refactor some FIRSes
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15:35<frosch123>he, when comparing a fortran77 tutorial with a fortran95 tutorial.. it mostly seems to differ in upper/lowercase
15:36<__ln__>func(void) is valid in C++ but Stroustrup considers it ugly
15:37<@Alberth>planetmaker: I think it's deprecated
15:37<@Alberth>Python has no void type :)
15:38<andythenorth>seems FIRS needs incompatible checks for “Preindustrial era houses” and “Oil rig layout"
15:39<@Alberth>the former makes sense, presence of FIRS would break the set :)
15:41<andythenorth>definitionally :)
15:41<andythenorth>I probably have to look up the grfids or something
15:41<andythenorth>and put them in a templae
15:41<andythenorth>or template
15:47<@planetmaker>I see :) So we did bad stuff when we recently hacked around Arduinos and stuff :P
15:49<V453000>o/
15:51<@planetmaker>\o
15:52<@Alberth>there are enough C++ versions to choose from :)
15:52<V453000>how are you ?:)
15:53<@Alberth>iirc one of the earlier did do that, to stay compatible with C
15:53<@Alberth>fine V, thanks, how are you?
15:54<@planetmaker>fine as well :) And you? Still drawing factori(o)es
15:54<@planetmaker>?
15:57<V453000>drawing factorioes like mad, it's amazing
15:57<V453000>learning new things every day, can't complain at all
15:58<V453000>I feel fully utilized, we're planning some seriously crazy things visually
15:58<V453000>not slugs though :(
15:58<@Alberth>V is slowly turning into a programmer :)
15:59<frosch123>Alberth: i just tried. --std=c++14 still compiles func(void)
15:59<frosch123>no warning either
15:59<@Alberth>hmm, sed pattern? :p
15:59<V453000>yeah, learning a lot of python, mainly blender python but normal python as well, is great
16:00<frosch123>do pythons count as slugs?
16:00<frosch123>or does english have a third term next to snail/slug?
16:01<frosch123>oh, "snake"...
16:01<frosch123>meh, i am too tired or so
16:02<frosch123>they seemed similar :p
16:02<V453000>guess they should yeah
16:02<V453000>it's just longer slug
16:03<@planetmaker>hehe
16:19<@Alberth>nn
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17:16<__ln__>@seen Gonozal_VIII
17:16<@DorpsGek>__ln__: I have not seen Gonozal_VIII.
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>today's episode of "we dig up a name from 5 years ago"?
17:23<__ln__>more or less, except DorpsGek was supposed to tell how many years.
17:25<Eddi|zuHause>my logs say 2008
17:25<Eddi|zuHause>and in 2010 DorpsGek already didn't know him
17:27<__ln__>DorpsGek's clearly not an elephant then
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17:46<@planetmaker>@seen TrueBrain
17:46<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: TrueBrain was last seen in #openttd 7 weeks, 1 day, 10 hours, 13 minutes, and 28 seconds ago: <TrueBrain> LordAro: it is working for me now (tm) :P
17:46<Eddi|zuHause>he was superceded by the bot...
17:46<@planetmaker>yeah, I know :|
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18:21<Wolf01>'night
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---Logclosed Tue Feb 21 00:00:54 2017