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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-03-02

---Logopened Thu Mar 02 00:00:07 2017
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03:51<crem>\o
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05:50<Samu>hi
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05:53<Samu>bah, the suggestion of "use a NewGRF" seriously bothers me :o
05:56<Samu>perhaps it's only me, who doesn't like of the idea of NewGRF
05:56<Samu>when working with vanilla
06:03<Samu>why is there no option to delete newgrfs in-game
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06:21<Samu>cargo type 0 means passengers, right?
06:45<@peter1138>But it's right. NewGRF is specifically there to change these features.
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07:10<Samu>darn, nars is changing what is obvious
07:12<Samu>nevermind, I was right, after all
07:13<Samu>something * 0 is still 0 after all
07:13<Samu>no matter if the factor changes
07:15<Samu>must think better
07:16<Samu>imagine that there is some weird NewGRF that bases running costs on speed, like nars
07:16<Samu>if the speed is 0, the running cost is /4
07:17<Samu>the cost_factor is = whatever cost it is / 4
07:17<Samu>now i got to imagine a wagon with no running cost assigned
07:17<Samu>or imagine that nars has wagons with £0
07:18<Samu>no no, that doesn't work
07:18<Samu>i got to imagine a wagon with no running cost assigned
07:18<Samu>this cost_factor is totally ignored, and that's wrong, i still have to account for it
07:18<Samu>ok, time to fix
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07:25<Samu>i must get the cost_factor first before checking if running_cost_class exists
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07:27<Samu>as a matter of fact, OpenTTD order of evaluation doesn't matter, but for what I'm trying to do, it does matter
07:29<Samu>I'm making so that non existant running_cost_classes will exist, and thus I need to take cost_factor into account
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07:40<Samu>how do I simulate a running_cost_class
07:40<Samu>must think
07:45<Samu> /* Wagons always have engine type 0, i.e. steam. */
07:45<Samu>why :(
07:53<Samu>is this valid for all wagons, be them vanilla or newgrf?
07:53<Samu>or can newgrf make diesel wagons and so?
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07:54<aeor>9 11 attacks, Did USA do it itself or it just let it happen?
07:54<aeor>Did USA administration murder 3000 American citizen in 9 11 attacks to justify starting a war against iraq?
07:54<aeor>If al-qaeda did it, why go to kill 2 million Iraqi?
07:54<aeor>http://creatvchaos.blogspot.com.eg/
07:54<aeor>https://creatvchaos.wordpress.com/
07:54<aeor>Some of the benefits Americans say they achieved after 9 11 attacks include:
07:54<aeor>*constant flow of oil, which price is in continuous decline. Trump said he will simply take the Iraqi oil, and when he was told that Iraqi oil belongs to iraq he said there is no iraq(after usa destroyed it ).
07:54<aeor>*Invasion of afghanstan with construction of not less than 14 american military base which give a close eye on china.
07:54<aeor>*Removal of potential threat to isreal represented in iraq which throw isreal with more than 30 rocket after American assault on iraq during 2nd gulf war.
07:54<aeor>So oil was the motive of the crime….
07:54<aeor>Did Usa ambassador at iraq implicitly encourage Saddam Hussien to invade kwuit?
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08:32<@peter1138>Samu, to get a "real" running cost figure, keep a running total of the running costs and divide it by an appropriate length of time.
08:33<@peter1138>Overkill though :p
08:41<Samu>@calc 3445-3691
08:41<@DorpsGek>Samu: -246
08:41<Samu>@calc 3691-3955
08:41<@DorpsGek>Samu: -264
08:41<Samu>@calc 4237-3955
08:41<@DorpsGek>Samu: 282
08:42<Samu>hmm nice
08:42<Samu>I'm onto something
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08:44<crem>@calc 10000000000000-1
08:44<@DorpsGek>crem: 9999999999999
08:44<crem>@calc 100000000000000000-1
08:44<@DorpsGek>crem: 100000000000000000
08:44<Samu>what time is it, peter1138
08:45<Samu>the time it took to transport the cargo from a to b?~
08:47<Samu>crem, it mean I was able to turn the costs higher, based on the number of wagons
08:47<Samu>it grows when there's more and more wagons
08:48<Samu>i think exponential growth
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08:49<Samu>@calc (3955-3445)/2
08:49<@DorpsGek>Samu: 255
08:50<Samu>246 per wagon for 1 wagon to 255 per wagon for 2 wagons
08:51<Samu>@calc (4237-3445)/3
08:51<@DorpsGek>Samu: 264
08:51<Samu>264 for 3 wagons
08:57<Samu>the implementation is error prone
08:57<Samu>bah... it was looking good, but it errors
08:59<Samu>the order which I put the engines would dictate the final running cost
08:59<Samu>an engine at the last would make it cheapest than an engine attached right after the front one
09:00<Samu>i suck at math
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09:03<Wolf01>o/
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09:04<crem>\o
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10:11<Wolf01>https://www.amazon.it/miniWINDER-Avvolgicavo-cuffie-dispositivo-riavvolgimento/dp/B00GTQ58YM/ref=as_li_ss_tl?_encoding=UTF8&refRID=EG2VC7YCDGJD6MEA68TC&th=1&linkCode=sl1&tag=fraffrog-21&linkId=cf2b73559abce06749513ed5a39bf874 why that price?
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10:34<supermop_home_>pink one must be special
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10:34<@Alberth>o/
10:37<Wolf01>o/
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11:08<supermop_home_>base set road seems to still show up below tram
11:08<supermop_home_>rough tramway underlay I erased some pixels to make the ballast look overgrown
11:08<supermop_home_>but where a stripe occurs on baseset roads there is a big white spot there
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11:10<supermop_home_>pylons for wires on bridges still kind of too wide
11:11<supermop_home_>tunnels ok but not broken anymore
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12:27<supermop>maybe ill just release as is
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12:44<Eddi|zuHause>"it's somewhat not-broken, let's release it"... modern software development
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12:51<supermop>once the glaringly obvious broken parts are gone, its too hard to decide what to fix next
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27764 /trunk/src/lang (french.txt russian.txt) (2017-03-02 19:45:38 +0100 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from Eints:
13:45<@DorpsGek>russian: 3 changes by Lone_Wolf
13:45<@DorpsGek>french: 6 changes by glx
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13:55<supermop>alright test if you will: https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=75986
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13:59<frosch123>you may now have more grfs than i do
14:00<Wolf01>Quak
14:00<frosch123>hoi
14:00<Wolf01>supermop, I'll try it, now :P
14:01<Wolf01>Oh, this night I mangled... ehm, I meant fixed the road_gui, there was a rogue "one way" button which broke the tramway building toolbar
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14:02<supermop>hi frosch123
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14:03<Wolf01>I would like to change it so it wont place a single empty space in the middle of the toolbar when the title is too large, does it have problems with multiple resizing panels?
14:05<Wolf01>supermop, it still has some double pass on loading ROAD
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14:07<Wolf01>Also asphalt and highway look really the same, the only difference is the boundary line which is brighter in the highway
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14:10<Wolf01>About the catenary for trolleybus, I think the highlight area should be moved to the point where the wire is attached, it seem to bow upside 'cause of the lightning
14:10<andythenorth>o/
14:10<Wolf01>o/
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14:11<supermop>yeah i havent drawn separate highway/asphalt except for curbs
14:11<Wolf01>BTW, it's really cool, congrats
14:11<Samu>hi
14:11<Wolf01>Hi
14:11<supermop>the idea for the wire is that it hangs down, so the parts closer to the attachment ar more diagonal and less flat
14:11<Samu>is SimYouLater here?
14:12<supermop>and would reflect more light to the viewer
14:12<supermop>*less light
14:12<Wolf01>Maybe too many pylons in the curves
14:12<supermop>yeah
14:12<supermop>i kind of want the mess that you get at trolley wire curves, but i need to balance it
14:13<supermop>the modern catenary doesn't yet have any wires holding the curves in shape
14:13<Samu>i found SimYouLater agreeing with me, that is hard
14:13<Samu>"It's easier to provide a toggleable feature to automatically apply it than to convince a NewGRF creator to add the feature by hand."
14:13<Wolf01>Wot?
14:14<supermop>highway certainly needs more pixel work
14:14<Samu>on the JGR topic
14:14<@Alberth>SimYouLater desperately wants your feature
14:15<Samu>well, my patch doesn't have it toggleable, but it's something that I wanted to do
14:15<andythenorth>it’s a bad feature
14:15<andythenorth>honestly :)
14:16<supermop>isn't the point of trains in game that longer trains are more efficient?
14:16<andythenorth>it increases code surface, increases settings complexity, and provides facets that will catch people out at some point
14:16<andythenorth>it’s also highly prone to attracting foamers who will argue about the rate at which the additional cost is applied
14:16<andythenorth>and will then want further settings for it
14:17<supermop>if running costs scale with each unit of capacity same or greater rate as trucks
14:17<@Alberth>we have that, it's called C++ :p
14:17<supermop>then trains just become stupid trucks
14:18<@Alberth>efficiency is a no-op in the land where you get more money than you can spend
14:18<supermop>andythenorth: try my mess of poles and wire
14:18<supermop>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=75986
14:18<supermop>you'll need some trolleybuses
14:21<Samu>"it increases code surface" what does this mean?
14:21<Samu>andythenorth:
14:25<Samu>oh, JGR is actually a guy
14:25<NGC3982>i need a sas programmer.
14:25<NGC3982>:(.
14:26<Samu>"niche feature" - that typo
14:26<Samu>"nice feature"
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14:26<Samu>j/k
14:26<frosch123>sounds like you only have ass programmers
14:28<supermop>heyoo
14:31<@Alberth>Samu: "niche" is not a typo, I think
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14:34<supermop>now we just need trucks which can drive on dirt and gravel, but not road
14:34<Wolf01>Definitely not a typo
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14:42<andythenorth>increased code surface = more crap to check if we want to change anything, plus more sources of bugs
14:47<supermop>frosch123: is it possible to avoid drawing baseset roads under tram tracks?
14:48<supermop>the white stripes of the road show through the ballast of my 'rough' tramway which i want to look overgrown
14:48<frosch123>no, we need the baseset road for the roadside
14:48<frosch123>you have to draw grass yourself
14:49<supermop>can i replace the base set sprites?
14:49<frosch123>sure, but it will affect the default roads :)
14:50<supermop>like what if i keep the sidewalks but lose the road in the middle. i am already defining ROAD with its own underlay and overlay
14:51<frosch123>if you replaced road, it should be fine
14:51<andythenorth>only 97 CPP #defines left in FIRS :P
14:52*andythenorth removing them
14:52<supermop>otherwise i guess i just draw pixels and switch to change them from grass to sand
14:53<andythenorth>on the upside, global CPP defines are really blunt and simple to use
14:53<andythenorth>on the downside, having a python + CPP compile is bonkers
14:54<@Alberth>:)
14:54<Wolf01>frosch123, could you please have a look at supermop's grf code? It seem to be loading ROAD twice summing the max speed
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14:58<supermop>speedlimit is a bit high there :)
14:59<frosch123>landinfo shows incorrect speed?
14:59<supermop>landinfo is too high iirc
14:59<Wolf01>Yup, but not only landinfo, even debugging RoadTypeInfo and newgrf loading code
15:00<frosch123>Wolf01: there are different units for speed in ottd
15:00<frosch123>for train speed 1 means 1 km-ish/h. for rv speed 1 means 0.5 km-ish/h
15:00<Wolf01>No, it really pass 2 times for basetype 0 and subtype 0
15:01<supermop>forexample, its show 200kmh for a 100 kmh road
15:01<frosch123>i have no idea what you mean with that
15:01<supermop>none of my buses are fast enough to take advantage
15:03<Wolf01>RoadTypeChangeInfo in newgrf.cpp, if you put a breakpoint for property 14 and check the value and roadtype, it does some strange things with the first roadtype
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15:03<supermop>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pqfos095t
15:03<supermop>if it helps
15:04<frosch123>Wolf01: those functions are always called twice
15:04<frosch123>reservation stage and activation state
15:04<Wolf01>With different values?
15:05<Wolf01>And magically the sum of the values is exactly what the landinfo shows
15:05<frosch123>it's not the sum
15:05<frosch123>landinfo shows just double the value
15:09<supermop>is there a reason why?
15:10<frosch123>pushed a fix for the landinfo window
15:10<supermop>cool thanks!
15:10<frosch123>supermop: landinfo expected unified speed unit, roadtypes gave roadvehicle-speedunit
15:11<frosch123>the units differ by factor 2
15:11<supermop>so a 100 kmh bus is only as fast as a 50kmh train? i never noticed this before
15:12<frosch123>no, a bus can have a top-speed of 50.5 km/h, while trains can only have either 50 or 51
15:12<supermop>ohhh
15:14<frosch123>in ttd the fastest train could go 255 km/h, the fastest rv and ship could go 127 km/h, aircraft could go 7344 km/h
15:15<frosch123>but all these values were equal to 255 vehicle-specific-speed-unit
15:20<supermop>so what should i fix now, other than graphics?
15:20<supermop>i have no idea if the costs make any sense
15:21<supermop>would be nice to have certain 'non-invasive' upgrades on non-owned road
15:21<supermop>like i cant convert a town street to highway, but i can hang trolleybus wires over it
15:21<supermop>as is building a trolleybus line in town get a bit expensive
15:22<Wolf01>You can't even make them one way...
15:22<supermop>i guess one wa could be abused to trap competitor vehicles
15:22<frosch123>supermop: if you can add trolleybus, can you also remove trolleybus?
15:22<Wolf01>You can't convert town roads
15:23<supermop>maybe if town owns it?
15:23<Wolf01>But you can remove the road and rebuild your own
15:23<supermop>who owns bankrupt company tramway?
15:23<frosch123>noone, everyone can remove them
15:24<supermop>frosch123: my idea if for a road type to have flagged 'safe' or polite upgrades
15:24<supermop>so ROAD can be set to be convertable to ELRD
15:24<supermop>but ELRD cannot be set to convertable to ROAD
15:25<supermop>so i can only convert my own ELRD to ROAD, not the towns
15:25<andythenorth>that was proposed before, and I was fairly resistant
15:26<andythenorth>just seems complicated
15:28<supermop>otherwise ELRD only works for trolly trucks at mine
15:29<supermop>although andy likely is ok with that!
15:29<frosch123>how about allowing any conversion of town roads, which is compatible to ROAD?
15:29<supermop>there is an electric gravel road in that set with your name on it andy
15:29<frosch123>resp. has the allow-house flag
15:30<frosch123>that would also allow ELRD->ROAD
15:30<supermop>frosch123: sounds fair
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>top 5 greatest songs of all time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fj7NzNFkT68
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15:45<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: when he speaks german, is he speaking it for a foreign audience?
15:45*andythenorth can mostly understand it
15:45<Eddi|zuHause>no, he speaks for a german audience
15:45<andythenorth>hmm
15:46<andythenorth>‘mostly’ is quite over-stated :P
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15:49<andythenorth>well that’s going to ruin my YT ‘recommended’ videos for days :P
15:51<frosch123>the upper shelf contains 3 interesting items
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15:51<frosch123>but i cannot identify whether the model figure represents someone
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>it has definitely a... recognizable... mustache
16:01<+glx>andythenorth: it's so easy to ruin them
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>that's why i only open videos in private browsing windows where i'm not logged into anything
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16:41<andythenorth>supermop: I’ll have a look at spool tomorrow :)
16:41<andythenorth>is bed
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17:57<Samu>AMD new cpus actually disappoint
17:57<Samu>despite all the hype they built
17:59<__ln__>why's that
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18:01<Samu>from what I see, the gaming benchmarks are quite bad
18:02<Samu>it's not a faildozer, but it's wrong to say that these ryzen 7 are for gamers
18:02<__ln__>from what i read, they aren't targeted for gaming
18:06<Wolf01>Ahaha, and I've read of gamers ready to trash their i7 and buy ryzen... It's like the ones who buy nvidia quadro and find out it isn't for gaming at all
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18:09<Samu>productivity, rendering and multi-tasking, and such, they're good
18:09<Samu>really good actually
18:10<Samu>but between a core i7-7700K and a R7 1700, for gaming... nah... disappoints
18:10<Samu>time to wait for the R5 1600X
18:14<__ln__>but the real question is: how suitable are they for running openttd
18:15<Samu>you mean to act as a server?
18:15<Samu>i'd say really good
18:16<Samu>power consumption is actually looking good
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18:26<Wolf01>'night
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19:08<Samu>uhm... okay, I concede
19:08<Samu>it's not possible to balance trains by just putting running costs on wagons
19:08<Samu>the vanilla trains
19:10<Samu>but at least they would get running costs
19:10<Samu>i might go on with the patch
19:11<Samu>but give up on the intention to try to balance
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23:54-!-Montana_ is "New Now Know How" on #openttd
---Logclosed Fri Mar 03 00:00:08 2017