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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-03-05

---Logopened Sun Mar 05 00:00:11 2017
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02:51<@Alberth>I am far from happy with makefile
02:51<@Alberth>considering rewrite to python
02:51<@Alberth>it's all a simple sequential set of steps any way
02:52<@Alberth>andythenorth: ^
02:56<andythenorth>hi hi
02:57<andythenorth>Alberth: I have considered abandoning make before :)
02:57<andythenorth>it would be one less dep
02:57<andythenorth>but…I did some reading about people who have tried to replace make with python :P
02:57<andythenorth>seems it only works if you absolutely know what you doing :)
02:57<@Alberth>in the general case? yes, don't gothere
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02:58<@Alberth>but I don't want to solve the general case
02:58<andythenorth>I am actually +1 to keeping make, we have gradually started using on it our work python projects
02:58<andythenorth>as a wrapper to buildout, setuptools etc
02:59<andythenorth>but they’re pretty simple makefiles
02:59<@Alberth>newgrf makefile isn't simple
03:00<@Alberth>it handles a lot of stuff with text, which is really not something you should do in a shell
03:00<@Alberth>likely it makes sense to keep a wrapper Makefile
03:01<andythenorth>here’s an example
03:01<andythenorth>we use it, not so much for the powers of make, but because it reduces ‘this is weird python shit’ for new people
03:02<@Alberth>as a simple interface
03:02<andythenorth>and it exposes current python devs to the idea of working in standard GNU ways
03:02<@Alberth>that works
03:02<andythenorth>ok :)
03:02<@Alberth>so perhaps a bunch of python scripts glued with make?
03:03<andythenorth>it pretty much is that
03:03<andythenorth>e.g. I can get the docs with python src/
03:03<andythenorth>and so on
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03:03<@Alberth>could move all the text handling away from the shell etc
03:03<andythenorth>the compile is modular, with a python script for each concern
03:04<@Alberth>don't know "all", but at least the complicated ones
03:04<andythenorth>ah, src/ still exists
03:05<andythenorth>and the makefile calls it
03:05<andythenorth>so there is one entry point script handling the entire python compile
03:05<@Alberth>I didn't see any source file lists
03:05<andythenorth>there’s nothing calculating deps
03:06<andythenorth>I always wanted to eliminate the ‘build_iron_horse’, ‘build_road_hog’ etc scripts and move that into the makefile
03:06<andythenorth>but eh, too complicated :)
03:06*andythenorth checks FIRS
03:06<@Alberth>though such scripts have a common pattern too, I guess
03:07<andythenorth>FIRS doesn’t have a ‘’
03:07<andythenorth>it is handled (correctly imho) by the makefile
03:12<@Alberth>looks like it indeed
03:14<andythenorth>I don’t know how reliable the dep-checking is in the FIRS example
03:15<andythenorth>it would almost be easier to just check src/*.py recursively
03:15<andythenorth>maintaining dep lists will always slip my mind
03:16<@Alberth>firs has no dep checking, by the looks of it
03:17<@Alberth>nml target depends on $(GENERATE_PNML), which points to "nml:" two lines up, which has no deps
03:17<@Alberth>euhm "pnml:" two lines up
03:18<andythenorth>ah yes, the Makefile is vanilla, doesn’t understand firs deps
03:20<@Alberth>I really fail to understand why you need 3 pieces of Makefile :p
03:21<andythenorth>I could try and explain
03:21<andythenorth>but that would require me to understand :)
03:21<andythenorth>theory is that Makefile is vendored-in, never edit
03:22<andythenorth>Makefile.config is of course, configuration against standard configuration points
03:22<andythenorth>and is how you break the standard Makefile because it doesn’t do what’s needed :)
03:22<andythenorth>Makefile.local I eliminated :P
03:23<@Alberth>for me, "*.in" is a template file for autotools :p
03:23<@Alberth>ie ./configure and friends
03:25<andythenorth>I see :)
03:26<andythenorth>for me it’s a template for python paste
03:26<andythenorth>probably pm took that pattern from autotools :)
03:26<@Alberth>at least we agree on it being a template :p
03:27<@Alberth>with a twist in meaning, as autotools makes a full copy, while doing a few replacements
03:28<andythenorth>that’s what paste does afaict
03:28<@Alberth>I have pondered adding a ./configure-like solution
03:28<@Alberth>but it doesn't have enough things to configure, I think
03:30<andythenorth>even the location for ‘install’ target is standardised
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03:30<andythenorth>and there’s nothing platform-specific or environment-specific in my code
03:33<@Alberth>:O CP_FLAGS ?= $(shell [ "$(OSTYPE)" = "Darwin" ] && echo "-rfX" || echo "-rf")
03:33<@Alberth>but indeed, hardly worth the effort
03:33<andythenorth>magic :)
03:34<@Alberth>imho it's total bollocks to use a shell for text selection
03:35<andythenorth>every problem is a nut
03:35<andythenorth>oh nail, not nut
03:35<andythenorth>mixing my sayings :P
03:35<@Alberth>I can see why ./configure uses m4 :)
03:36<@Alberth>ha, I know the phrase, didn't know it had a name as well :)
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03:41<@Alberth>yesterday frosch pointed out the newer way to assign version numbers to builds, do you want to switch to that?
03:41<@Alberth>(20:31:12) frosch123:
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03:55<andythenorth>I don’t actually find it useful
03:55<andythenorth>it’s preferable to just have ‘revM’
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04:36<Supercheese>Kerbal is up
04:40<andythenorth>Kerbal Train Programme
04:41<Supercheese>Kerbal Monorail Program:
04:42<Supercheese>also Kerbal zellepins
04:43<Supercheese>Moar zellepins
04:51<andythenorth>monorail is really quite epic
04:52<Supercheese>Indeed, he did an amazing job
04:57<andythenorth>KSP video
04:57<Supercheese>the fellow who did ... yes that
04:59<@Alberth>yes, but I fail to see "epic"
04:59<andythenorth>nice music, nice pictures
04:59<@Alberth>long stretch of pipe, strap an engine to it
04:59<andythenorth>also, when I tried KSP, I couldn’t get the rocket to stay assembled on a launch pad
04:59<andythenorth>everything in KSP falls apart all the time :P
05:00<@Alberth>oh, ok, fair enough then :)
05:00<Supercheese>more struts
05:00<@Alberth>Kerbal Struts Program :p
05:00<Supercheese>More boosters
05:01<@Alberth>nah, no B in KSP
05:01<@Alberth>maybe for v2: Boosted Kerbal Struts Program
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05:05<Supercheese>KSP 2: Electric Boosteloo
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05:30<Samu>question, what does it take to implement a patch into vanilla openttd?
05:30<Samu>is the aircraft type a good patch?
05:36<Samu>isn't displaying aircraft type info a good idea?
05:39<__ln__>what does it matter to the average player?
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05:40<andythenorth>I find it annoying that I don’t know which planes are large and which are small
05:40<andythenorth>maybe I should disable crashes :P
05:40<andythenorth>or fork AV9 and make them all small :P
05:44<Samu>helps them distinguish a small plane from a large plane
05:44<@Alberth>it would really help if you also note what to look at in your screen shots
05:44<@Alberth>now it's just a random shot that looks like vanilla openttd
05:45<@Alberth>I don't remember exactly what each window shows
05:45<Samu>there's planes that look alike
05:45<@Alberth>so I can't see any difference
05:45<Samu>oh, i wanted unadultered shots, but i see it would help
05:46<__ln__>did you mean:
05:46<@Alberth>"unaltered" means "not changed", "adult" means "grown up", no idea what unadultered is :)
05:47<Samu>sorry, portuguese got in the way lol
05:48<Samu>unadulterated I guess
05:49<@Alberth>I can see the English side being broken, no idea what the Spanish side says :)
05:50<@Alberth>or apparently, Portugese
05:50<Samu>unadulterated = not mixed or diluted with any different or extra elements; complete and absolute.
05:52<Samu>there are planes that are small and large while they look alike
05:53<Samu>also there's newgrfs that may actually display this information, but there was no sort by to group the all together
05:53<Samu>i think it's helpful
05:54<Samu>group them* all together - typo
05:54<Samu>also helpful when engine preview window comes up
05:55<Samu>it will display it there too, helps for a better planning
05:57<Samu>the placed I couldn't get it to sort by was on the company list of aircraft
05:58<Samu>or aircrafts going into a station
05:58<Samu>anything that is referring to company owned stuff
05:59<Samu>it'd be helpful there too, but the sorters over there are englobing all vehicle types
06:00<Samu>it would require an universal "Sort by Type" sorter, and i'm not sure how to go about that
06:00<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: maybe you should patch the game so it tells you the expected runway length in the vehicle stats?
06:02<Samu>i have a feeling Eddi|zuHause can't read what I'm typing
06:12<Samu>Alberth: l - :o
06:12<Samu>Alberth: - :o
06:13<Samu>and im missing the engine preview offer window, not easy to have it trigger
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06:27<@Alberth>looks nice
06:27<@Alberth>bit busy at the moment, I'll check the patch later
06:29<Samu>oh nice, thx
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07:00<@Alberth>looks ok, at first sight
07:01<@Alberth>adding the sort type should be done separately from adding to the display
07:02<@Alberth>and I don't like the very long string names
07:02<@Alberth>latter probably requires a rename operation on the strings
07:02<@Alberth>which then also affects all translations
07:02<@Alberth>ie not nice to do
07:03<@Alberth>if you go that way, renaming of the strings should be separate from adding new strings
07:05<@Alberth>you also checked how it looks if you do have a range on the aircraft?
07:09<Samu>which one?
07:09<Samu>ah, wait, let me open it up
07:10<Samu>"adding the sort type should be done separately" what does this mean
07:10<Samu>which line is it? on the patch
07:13<@Alberth>your patch both adds display of the aircraft type, and the sorting on the type
07:13<@Alberth>in trunk one thing gets changed in one commit
07:14<@Alberth>so in trunk we have one commit for adding the display
07:14<Samu>ah i get what you mean
07:14<Samu>make it into 2 patches
07:14<@Alberth>and one commit for adding the new sort type
07:14<Samu>i guess i can do that
07:16<Samu>about the very long string names... i'm not sure what i can do there
07:17<@Alberth>the current naming convention fails, so it needs new names in some way
07:17<Samu>yes, but that is not my fault :(
07:18<@Alberth>it's nobody falt
07:18<@Alberth>things get extended a few times, and at some point you need to re-organize
07:19<@Alberth>changes in string names are not fun to do manually
07:19<@Alberth>you need some 'sed' wizardry to make it managable
07:20<@Alberth>so first split the patch, perhaps think of a better string name
07:20<andythenorth>string fixing always looks like a python nail to me :P
07:20<@Alberth>nah, it's plain name substitution
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07:21<@Alberth>sed -i -e 's/OLD_NAME/NEW_NAME/' src/lang/*.txt src/lang/unfinished/*.txt
07:21<@Alberth>and then a change in the source code
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07:22<Samu>i have to google what "sed" is
07:22<Samu>so you prefer a string rename
07:22<Samu>over adding new strings
07:23<@Alberth>you definitely need new strings
07:23<@Alberth>but old names and new names must use the same convention in naming
07:24<@Alberth>so if you change convention, all strings that use it, must change as well
07:24<@Alberth>so you add new strings with a new convention in the name
07:25<Samu>ah, because of translations
07:25<@Alberth>then you must also rename all the remaining strings
07:25<@Alberth>yes, translators must find the new string to translate
07:25<@Alberth>and you rename to keep it clear that the set of strings belongs to each other
07:26<Samu>patching strings in the translation files to adapt them into a new convention
07:27<@Alberth>that's what the 'sed' line does indeed, else all translators have to re-translate the exact same text, but with a different string name
07:28<Samu>avoid giving work to translators, by re-using what they have already translated
07:29<Samu>re-use what's done, adapt it to new convention
07:29<Samu>i could try patching all languages manually, since I have no idea if there's a 'sed' equivalent on windows
07:30<@Alberth>it's over 40 files
07:31<Wolf01> we need this
07:31<@Alberth>just invent a better way to name the strings, 'sed' is going to be so awful much quicker and accurate, don't bother trying to do that manually, I can do it in a few minutes
07:33<@Alberth>Wolf01: it's possible in reality, I always wondered what would happen if you'd try that
07:43<Wolf01>Mmmmh, I need to glue some polyethylene...
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07:46<Samu>"you also checked how it looks if you do have a range on the aircraft?" yes
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08:07<@Alberth>andythenorth: do you have a template fill program?
08:07<@Alberth>like "fill-template blah.template name=foo revision=r101 > blah.txt" or so?
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08:42<Wolf01>andythenorth I just copied this :P
08:50<supermop>good morning
08:50<supermop>more work to be done
08:50<supermop>pylons too wide for bridges - even with the modern catenary
08:51<supermop>but it seems that bridge truss gets drawn before front pylons
08:51<supermop>so they will always stick out
08:52<supermop>solution is to omit pylons on bridge deck
08:52<supermop>but never know if a bridge will have tall sides or not
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08:54<supermop>nuclear option: unspooled replaces all bridges with new ones that look better with pylons
08:55<Wolf01>And what if we try to fix that in the code?
08:56<Wolf01>How many things we'll break?
08:57<eekee>why can't the graphic parts be made to fit together?
08:59<Wolf01>Because one can use a roadset and a bridgeset from different authors which have different tastes
08:59<Wolf01>Like pineapple on pizza
09:00*eekee thinks about this
09:00<supermop>eekee: my current, non-nuclear option is to try to revise graphics to look better with default bridges
09:01<supermop>but as wolf said, there is no guarantee that will look good with all default bridges, let alone other bridges provided by other newgrfs
09:01<eekee>makes sense -- so... the roads themselves have pylons which aren't separate pieces like street lamps or trees?
09:02<supermop>the are separate, but they are always drawn
09:02<supermop>you can have bridge pylons different from regular road
09:02<supermop>but they are the same for all bridges
09:02<eekee>there ought to be a way to disable drawing them on bridges, surely
09:03<eekee>i'm having trouble imagining a bridge with pylons; never seen one irl :)
09:03<supermop>I can disable they for all bridges, but that will look stupid on some bridges that do not have an overhead structure
09:03<supermop>as then the wire will just float
09:04<eekee>are these for trams?
09:04<supermop>trams and trolleybuses
09:04<eekee>ah, i wasn't thinking
09:05<supermop>if you imagine the tubular bridge - sure would look weird with pylons
09:05<eekee>i always play with ctrl-8 -- hide the pylons & wires :)
09:06<supermop>but imagine the cheap girder bridge with the arched grey trusses - would certainly need pylons
09:06<eekee>i use a grf to make narrow pylons and i still find i have to hide them because they confuse my eyes
09:07<supermop>eekee: fair enough but at some point you may want to tell whether a road can run a trolleybus or not
09:07<eekee>i guess so. i've never used a trolleybus grf
09:09<supermop>I actually started this grf to make the wires less bold - like this:
09:10<eekee>ah aye :)
09:10<supermop>where the wires are held by other wires, connected to poles at the far edge of the road
09:10<supermop>(I used to live on that tram line)
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09:10<eekee>ah yes. i won't know until i try it if it'll be any good for my eyes
09:11<supermop>I suceeded in making the wire overhead a bit less noticeable, but at the expense of adding many more poles, especially in curves
09:13<eekee>it's the poles that bother me :)
09:13<eekee>i think i could stand a pole every other square
09:13<supermop>if you want to help me out with some feedback, try this:
09:14<supermop>then try this:
09:14<supermop>then this:
09:15<supermop>that will let you play with different road types, trolleybuses, and my roadtype grf which is a wip
09:15<eekee>ugh, can't read today :)
09:16<supermop>Wolf01: highways need to look fancier, or asphalt roads need to look worse?
09:17<Wolf01>Usually highways have barriers here, the problem is that you can't simulate them having 2-3-4 lanes
09:18<supermop>it's not a 'motorway' or interstate
09:18<supermop>its more like a US route X Highway or britsh A-road
09:19<supermop>or a US state highway
09:20<supermop>divided motorways are beyond the scope of this set, because as you say there isn't really a way to make them yet
09:20<supermop>maybe to non native English speakers highway always means 4-8 lane motorway
09:20<eekee>if i was going to ask for more realistic roads, i'd first ask for a building scale change. i'm about 90% sure several of the default buildings were originally meant to be 2x2 :)
09:21<supermop>but here and in England at least it can also mean the purpose built intercity roads in general
09:21<supermop>eekee: scale had no real meaning in 1994 - just a couple of guys wanted to make a fun game
09:22<eekee>yeah :)
09:22<supermop>and we've been trying to ruin it with realism ever since'
09:22<eekee>yes! hahaha
09:23<supermop>a townset of nearly all 2x2 houses is fine, but default town road pattern would have a lot of trouble with it
09:23<Wolf01>supermop, is it possible to put random stuff on sides? Like advertising poles popping out some now and then (not every tile)
09:23<supermop>Wolf01 idk maybe?
09:23<eekee>i've actually never tried non-default townsets
09:23<supermop>not sure how available random bits are to roads
09:24<supermop>did you ever get anywhere with your Cyprus trees lining your tuscan roads wolf?
09:25<supermop>custom fences/trees/sidewalks per roadtype would solve a lot of my graphic wishes
09:25<supermop>will frosch123 kill me?
09:25<Wolf01>We are used to sycamores here, harder wood, cars crash better
09:26<supermop>what are the tall pointy ones they use in Tuscany then?
09:26<supermop>also surprised no one has ever made any italian town sets
09:27<Wolf01>Maybe cypress ones, here we use them only for roads to graveyards
09:28<Wolf01>I wanted to, shit at drawing
09:28<supermop>that maybe a nice niche feature for nrt then
09:28<Wolf01>Just look at my brickland baseset
09:28<supermop>switch to detect if house with flag 'is graveyard' is nearby
09:30<supermop>Wolf01: whats brickland?
09:31<supermop>also i think I could never finish a townset because as an architect i'd never be able to move on to the 2nd sprite
09:33<supermop>oh yeah that was cool
09:33<supermop>better than my brio climate which got only one wagon and some track slopes drawn
09:36<eekee>haha i'd have that trouble
09:36<supermop>is 50kmh too fast for the crappy tramway?
09:36<eekee>i never want to move on to my next game in openttd, i always want to keep polishing the old ones
09:39<@Alberth>watching trains is much more fun than building new networks :)
09:40<supermop>Wolf01 I think 'hway', as I am defining it, should have guardrails or walls in town instead of sidewalks maybe? and then wide shoulders outside of town
09:40<supermop>a switch to add guardrails whenever road has foundations would be nice for winding mountain routes
09:42<Wolf01>HWAY in town should be like normal road, they must have guardrails on country, where ROAD should not have them
09:42<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27766 trunk/src/newgrf.cpp (2017-03-05 15:42:41 +0100 )
09:42<@DorpsGek>-Fix: Obiwan opposed translations for text id D3FF and DCFF in Action 13.
09:42<supermop>was thinking asphalt should not have yellow stripes in town
09:43<eekee>Alberth: yes :) i also like improving old lines better than planning new ones, up to a point
09:43<supermop>its not 100% realistic, but not 100% unrealistic either
09:43<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27767 trunk/src/newgrf.cpp (2017-03-05 15:43:21 +0100 )
09:43<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Industries and houses should just use the default-case in Action 4.
09:44<supermop>many suburban residential streets do not have them
09:44<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27768 trunk/src/newgrf.cpp (2017-03-05 15:44:15 +0100 )
09:44<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Use if and IsInsideMM instead of switch-case sequences to test for consecutive values.
09:44<supermop>but you also cannot drive 100kmph on those streets...
09:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27769 trunk/src/newgrf.cpp (2017-03-05 15:45:13 +0100 )
09:45<@DorpsGek>-Change: [NewGRF] Extend the DCxx range to D800-DFFF.
09:46<andythenorth>Alberth: template fill is via chameleon
09:46<andythenorth>but only inside the python part of the compile
09:47<andythenorth>otherwise just %s or something
09:47<eekee>all this talk about highways is confusing me. i've driven a lot in the south of england: sussex, hampshire, bit of kent and devon. A roads which aren't dual carriageways mostly don't have barriers except at junctions
09:48<supermop>hmm need to split template so that bridge catenary is from a different png than regular wires
09:49<Wolf01>We have moats
09:49<eekee>also we didn't use the word 'highway' much. some brits did, but mostly it was one of those american tv show words
09:49<supermop>eekee: ive diven on roads in cornwall where hedges were rubbing my little Peugeot on both sides
09:49<supermop>granted that was not an A-road
09:50<Samu>just made a standalone patch for sort by aircraft type Alberth, where do i put it? forum?
09:50<eekee>oh i've driven roads that narrow in sussex, but i'm thinking of the a29
09:50<supermop>a29 is brutal
09:50<Samu>the other request is gonna take more time
09:50<eekee>it wasn't my favourite road
09:50<supermop>along north coast of devon& cornwall
09:51<eekee>i only went there once
09:51<supermop>was sure I was going to die
09:51<eekee>i used to race along tiny sussex backroads. stupid really
09:51<eekee>A27 was my favourite road though
09:52<eekee>... apart from arundel and worthing >.< lol
09:53<supermop>I don't mind west country driving, but a29 has the traffic and speed of a motorway on what seems like a mountain access road
09:54<supermop>was a bit much to do right after landing at Bristol from EWR without having slept at all
09:54<eekee>it wasn't heavily trafficked when i drove it, but i can imagine some of the traffic from the a27 spilling onto it would make it pretty bad
09:55<Wolf01>supermop usually our roads, at least in northern italy are like this
09:55<eekee>i mostly drove it at quiet times of the day, i think
09:55<supermop>huge busses and lorries coming around those hairpins when i'm already re-acclimating myself to left side driving
09:55<supermop>PAGINA NON TROVATA
09:55<eekee>Wolf01: the a29 is 1.25 to 1.75 times as wide as that.. :)
09:56<Wolf01>Copy the entire link, maybe your client cuts it on some symbol
09:56<eekee>i thought the dover road (a21?) was worse for trucks
09:56<eekee>it's narrower
09:57<eekee>or no... there are narrow parts of the a29
09:57<supermop>Wolf01: asphalt rd would be nice if it could look like that outside of town
09:57<Wolf01>It can
09:58<Wolf01>You can check in which town zone you are
09:58<supermop>I need to learn how to do that
09:58<eekee>i'm thinking of making highways as 2 one-way roads
09:58<eekee>dual carriageways, anyway
09:59<supermop>eekee: that's how most players do it, but RVS wont drive in the 'fast' lane
09:59<supermop>also the corners look pretty stupid
09:59<eekee>not even to overtake like they do on regular roads?
09:59<eekee>oh yeah
10:00<Wolf01>It would be cool also if roads could sense the proximity of other roads and slopes to provide different "sidewalk" types
10:00<supermop>then can overtake, but you do not get the huge increase in capacity you'd expect
10:00<eekee>ah, that's a shame
10:00<Wolf01> like this highway, guardrail for downward slope, no guardrail for the upward one
10:00<supermop>Wolf01: yes! like in that tram pic I linked - if tramway is in the middle of two roads, maybe don't put sidewalks there
10:01<eekee>it would help where i have hoverbusses & slow water trucks on the same route, i guess, but then i only use road for that where the land is insanely hilly. hmm!
10:01<Wolf01>And when you build 2 highways adjacent you can make the middle ad a line of trees
10:01<supermop>Wolf01: if guardrail is somehow part of foundation that would work well
10:02<supermop>Wolf01: same for wide city boulevards
10:03<eekee>that's the road the m25 wishes it could be: plenty of lanes for the traffic
10:03<supermop>ok so how do I split the cat template so it gets the first 23 sprites from one png, and the last 6 from another?
10:16<Samu>is notroadtypes able to define overtaking rules?
10:16<Samu>that's interesting
10:16<Samu>you can overtake at this road
10:16<Samu>but not on that road
10:17<Samu>but wouldn't it be interesting'
10:17<Wolf01>That could be a flag, used by roadtpes, but how and when is not a task for roadtypes
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10:21<Samu>there are 56 lang files, ouch
10:23<supermop>what about 'no junctions'
10:24<Wolf01>I've got already burned by that
10:24<supermop>thinking about gondolas and chairlifts
10:24<Wolf01>The best solution was "forbid towns to connect to this roadtype"
10:25<Wolf01>I'm also for point-to-point routes
10:25<Samu>"new stringing convention" versus old convention + "append what's missing" at the end of the strings
10:26<Samu>for all languages?
10:26<supermop>Wolf01 yeah a gondola is sort of like a pipe
10:26<supermop>but for now it would be fun to fake it as a tram
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10:27<Wolf01>D=S=========S) <-turnaround (like trams), it should work
10:27<supermop>have to trust people not building junctioned networks of gondolas
10:28<supermop>maybe just define all the junction sprites to be a middle finger
10:28<Samu>i want a string patcher
10:28<Samu>if such thing exists
10:31<supermop>how do I make the bridge portion come from a different png?
10:31<Wolf01>supermop, maybe if we insist, also andythenorth considered that
10:33<Samu>find a string with the name "STR_BLA_BLA_BLA", copy the text "that's there already", then append " more text at the end" of "that's there already", to become "that's there already more text at the end"
10:34<Samu>i suppose there is no sed for windows
10:35<eekee>Samu: sed 's/STR_BLA_BLA_BLA.*that's there already/& more text at the end/
10:35<Samu>can notepad++ do something like that?
10:35<Wolf01>Samu, you have windows 10, then you have ubuntu subsystem
10:35<eekee>probably with regexp search & replace
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10:37<eekee>most half-decent text editors have regexp search & replace
10:37<eekee>might be called 'regex' without the p
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10:40<Samu>?regular expression
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10:40<Samu>notepad does have this seach method, but... not sure how to use it
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10:43<frosch123>i still have no good idea for how to allow industries to specify multiple station names :/
10:45<@Alberth>would be townname-ish, perhaps?
10:45<@Alberth>some parts as prefix, and some parts as suffix
10:45<@Alberth>or maybe only as suffix (of the town name)
10:46<frosch123>question is whether industries are allowed to influence which name is picked
10:46<frosch123>or whether it is pure random
10:46<frosch123>in both cases the name should survive updating the grf
10:47<@Alberth>why would an industry want to influence the choice?
10:47<@Alberth>a steel mill is a steelmill, right?
10:47<@Alberth>s/ m/m/
10:47<frosch123>depending on town size, height or whatever
10:48<frosch123>like the default station names pick east/west/heights/forrest/...
10:48<@Alberth>I'd like to influence townname based on xy location (or percentage, perhaps)
10:48<@Alberth>hi hi planetmaker
10:48<frosch123>we can store some index in the savegame, but we need a reliable way to again get a string for that
10:48<@planetmaker>don't we already have a choice list which industries can supply?
10:48<@planetmaker>or was it only one?
10:48<frosch123>planetmaker: it's only one
10:49<frosch123>i thought about adding *two* callbacks
10:49<@Alberth>tweak chances?
10:49<frosch123>first one gets an industry id, tile and everything and is queried with random bits to decide a station name
10:49<@Alberth>becomes horribly expensive perhaps
10:49<@planetmaker>I suggest that then the industry NewGRF may suggest names, maybe even an ordered preference list. But the name is then copied to the station - thus after the station is built, it doesn't query the NewGRF anymore
10:50<frosch123>the second has no industry, and is only used to give the string based on the info stored in the savegame
10:50<frosch123>it's similar to vehicle refitting with subtypes, except that vehicles cannot close while the stationame remains
10:53<@planetmaker>Hm... actually I really wonder whether we need really per-language names for stations. It seems awkward anyway
10:54<@planetmaker>IMHO it would be fine, if stationnames were chosen by the language setting of the player building the station
10:54<@Alberth>can't you point to a townname parts from the industry?
10:54<@planetmaker>it would also make it easier to communicate when talking about stations
10:54<@Alberth>industry can pick different parts id based on some preference
10:54<@planetmaker>and then you can just store the name once and for all and have no newgrf-change issue
10:55<@planetmaker>but ok... bike shedding :)
10:55<frosch123>planetmaker: townnames are not stored as text in savegames
10:55<frosch123>it's just that andy does not do townname grfs, and thus they do not change that often
10:55<@planetmaker>yes, I know... but they cannot be renamed by players
10:55<@planetmaker>stations can
10:55<frosch123>players can also rename towns
10:56<@planetmaker>ups :)
10:56<@Alberth>so you store the pointed-to townname parts, and the random bits
10:56<frosch123>though there is a setting to disable renaming in multiplayer, because some people were annoyed by trolls
10:56<@planetmaker>well, then yes, the same mechanism as there
11:01<eekee>once i saw a town and all its stations and my company renamed by an update to openttd, gannington -> ganton. english names, no grf
11:07<Samu>oh, even visual studio got a regular expression search mode, woah, call me impressed
11:07<frosch123>problem with townnames is that they are not translatablwe
11:07<frosch123>which is terrible for singleplayer
11:08<@planetmaker>why is that horrible for SP? You mean MP?
11:09<frosch123>if you have set everything to german, why should all stations near firs industries have english names?
11:10<frosch123>you can pick a town name set of your liking
11:10<frosch123>but adding a parameter to a industry set to control which language the station names use, is just weird
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11:11<eekee>do you mean, like, "dresden brickworks"?
11:11<frosch123>klein kleckersdorf tanner road
11:12<eekee>that would be firs which needs translating, wouldn't it?
11:12<eekee>or am i misunderstanding what 'tanner road' is? :)
11:13<frosch123>stations near firs mines are named "tanner road" when you use english
11:13<frosch123>if station names would work like townnames, they would be fixed and not translateable
11:15<eekee>near *mines*???
11:16<eekee>now wondering what's wrong with firs :)
11:16<frosch123>currently they are translated, which makes stations near mines named "Bergwerk" in german
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11:27<andythenorth>random lists?
11:27*andythenorth has only part-read the transcript :)
11:28<frosch123>well, if noone once to influence which name is picked, i would just go for a purchase-list-style callback, that builds a list of up to 256 names or so
11:28<frosch123>english :/
11:29<frosch123>ottd would then save the index to that list in the savegame
11:30<frosch123>and it's the grf's responsibility to only extend the list at the end
11:30<@Alberth>how is that different from selecting parts from a townname list?
11:31<frosch123>the names would be translateable
11:31<@Alberth>ah, of course
11:31<frosch123>and i do not see how one would compose station names from multiple parts
11:32<frosch123>unless you go for Peter Watt Avenue
11:32<frosch123>but that would not be industry specific anymore
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11:33<frosch123>but rather for town-based stations
11:33<frosch123>we could extent the townname spec to also provide station names, in the same language as the town names
11:34<frosch123>that works for street names
11:34<@Alberth>combined multiple parts is also a lot harder to translate
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11:42<fonsinchen>It seems there are multiple interesting forks of OpenTTD around these days. Maybe something should be done to counter the growing fragmentation.
11:45<frosch123>i don't think anyone is interested in making the features work with each other
11:46<fonsinchen>Yes, that's kind of a problem ...
11:47<fonsinchen>I don't really see a solution either
11:47<frosch123>i think it is fine as long as the add-ons (gs and newgrf) work with each of them
11:47<Wolf01>I think I'll make my own NRT too, without OTTD
11:47<frosch123>patchpacks are imho a good solution to provide more specialised features
11:48<fonsinchen>Wolf01: What is "NRT"?
11:48<@Alberth>a whole new fork :)
11:48<frosch123>also, doesn't jgrpp include everything?
11:49<@Alberth>almost, afaik
11:49<fonsinchen>There are some performance improvements and bug fixes that could very well be applied to mainline ottd, though.
11:49<frosch123>fonsinchen: fs#6540 is for you then :)
11:50<frosch123>hmm, or is that older than cdist?
11:50<frosch123>it looked like cdist at first
11:52<fonsinchen>It is cdist, and a simple "forgot to initialize variable" problem AFAICS
11:56<fonsinchen>Well, some of it. The _cargo_source_xy and _cargo_feeder_share stuff is older but the same problem
12:06<@DorpsGek>Commit by fonsinchen :: r27770 trunk/src/saveload/station_sl.cpp (2017-03-05 18:06:14 +0100 )
12:06<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#6540]: Initialize variables in station_sl.cpp (JGR)
12:06<fonsinchen>There we go.
12:09<eekee>every time i open a train window, it's pinned. is this intentional, or is it a bug from running on a 5 year old linux system?
12:10<frosch123>eekee: ctrl-click the pin icon saves the pin-state for the next time
12:11<frosch123>so unpin it, and then ctrl-click the pin
12:13<eekee>thanks, i discovered that & forgot it
12:13<eekee>that worked ^^
12:17<andythenorth>fonsinchen: I wondered about the forks
12:17<andythenorth>multiple viable forks is a good thing I think :)
12:17<SpComb>looking at what JGR is doing, it does start to kind of look like a viable fork
12:18<SpComb>dunno how long most PPs tend to live for
12:19<andythenorth>most seem to die, often the maintainer probably just can’t keep up
12:19<andythenorth>things I wondered….
12:19<frosch123>SpComb: jgr is around for long enough, and is likely past graduation, so it is unlikely that he would stop any time
12:19<andythenorth>- encourage them to use the ottd build infrastructure? it was easy for TB to add NRT to it. OTOH, multiple people maintaining build farms might be not bad either
12:20<andythenorth>- encourage them to use github or something where we can see their repo publicly?
12:20<frosch123>the latter is the case :)
12:21<Samu>i don't know how to use visual studio regular expression
12:22<Samu>what do i put in find?
12:22<Samu>what do i put in replace
12:22<frosch123>other pp died precisely the moment they got a compile farm :p
12:23<Samu>find what:
12:23<Samu>replace with:
12:23<SpComb>although, maybe the true qualifier for a fork would be a patchpack with multiple maintainers
12:24<andythenorth>so what are the current forks?
12:24<SpComb>I think PPs die when their maintainers lose interest and stop playing the game themselves
12:24<andythenorth>JGR, Cirdan, NRT, Luukland (ahem)
12:24<frosch123>i have no idea whether reddit and btpro share their client
12:24<andythenorth>OpenTTD Spring PP 2013 seems to be active
12:25<eekee>Samu: . matches any 1 character, usualy not including newline. . * matches zero or more or the preceeding thing, so .* matches any number of characters. there are other special characters which you can escape with \ for a literal match. you'd best see visual studio's documentation, because different programs have different regexps
12:25<frosch123>i would think that all single-player-focused pp are superceeded by jgrpp
12:25<andythenorth>this is TB’s post explaining build-farm philosophy
12:26<Samu>Replace with: i have no idea
12:26<Samu>i want it to take what's already there, then add more stuff at the end
12:27<andythenorth>my other ‘I wonder’ is same as fonsinchen’s - are PPs testing any useful patches that would be valid for trunk
12:27<eekee>Samu: & in replace *probably* stands for what was matched
12:27<@Alberth>just ignore the too long string names, Samu
12:28<andythenorth>Alberth: I was afk most of afternoon, did the template answer help? o_O
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12:29<@Alberth>thanks, I missed that, highlighting is broken
12:29<@Alberth>euhm, I guess so
12:30<Samu>Replace with: &{}Aircraft Type: {STRING}
12:30<Samu>let me see
12:31<Samu>Alberth: im still learning
12:31<Samu>then i'll do it the other way
12:32<@Alberth>andythenorth: I made some small applications for parts of the problem
12:32<Samu>{}Aircraft Type: {STRING} was placed at the start of the line, i wanted it at the end of it
12:32<Samu>almost there
12:32<andythenorth>Alberth: neat :)
12:32<@Alberth>which mostly is missing a template expander
12:32<andythenorth>portable, reusable
12:33<@Alberth>that's my hope somewhat :)
12:33<andythenorth>is there some off-the-shelf template expander we can use?
12:33<andythenorth>chameleon is all wrong for this :P
12:33<andythenorth>is something doing %s out of the question? I find it hard to read, but it seems widely used
12:34<@Alberth>I have some code for it, but that it's for a larger scale, I'd need to downsize it
12:34<@Alberth>may be useful anyway to extend my solution with that
12:34<@Alberth>otherwise something string template-ish?
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12:34<@Alberth>didn't look at that at all, no idea what it does
12:35<@Alberth>%s is hard to use if you replace 2 elements in a file :)
12:35<@Alberth>you can't tell which replacement goes where :)
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12:35<@Alberth>but something unique like %blah% is simple enough
12:36<Samu>replace with: &'{}Aircraft Type: {STRING}
12:36<@Alberth>you're not trying to extend the text of the string, are you?
12:37<@Alberth>unless you write 40 different languages fluently, of course
12:39<andythenorth>bash templating?
12:40<andythenorth>or python standard lib Template, but it seems a bit Fisher Price :P
12:41<@Alberth>my idea is still make a sequence of key=value pairs at the command-line, and a filename for the template
12:41<@Alberth>then replace %key% by the value, for each pair in the text of the template
12:41<@Alberth>write the result out to an output file
12:41<frosch123>isn't "deflating" the uncompressing part of zip?
12:41<Samu>don't know how to use this grr
12:42<Samu>deflate is compressing
12:42<Samu>inflate is decompressing
12:42<frosch123>what is the difference between "bin/find-files -e bla" and "find . -name '*.bla'"? or do you want to create your own mingw?
12:43<@Alberth>apparently not frosch123
12:44<frosch123>that is gzip?
12:44<@Alberth>bin/find-files takes more directories, but otherwise, I agree very little different from regular find
12:44<frosch123>from the help message it read like zip
12:44<@Alberth>zipfile module is zip
12:45<@Alberth> gzip is named 'gzip' :)
12:45<frosch123>i thought zlib was about gzip
12:45<@Alberth>no, zlib is much older
12:45<@Alberth>it's .Z
12:46<frosch123>oh, compress/decompress
12:48<@Alberth>find just have a much more weird syntax
12:49<@Alberth>as it can do more than just finding files by name
12:49<frosch123>yep, it is ancient :)
12:50<@Alberth>it's quite powerful, find files by modification date, size, access rights, etc
12:51<frosch123>i have used it for log rotation :)
12:52<eekee>i use find -type f; regular files only
12:53<@Alberth>andythenorth: seems to mostly work, just wrap a command-line around it
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13:11<andythenorth>frosch123: got an answer for industry names yet? o_O
13:11<andythenorth>industry [station] names
13:13<frosch123>the answer so far is that newgrf do not need any influence on which name is picked
13:13<frosch123>and would just provide a list choices, which ottd picks randomly from
13:14<andythenorth>seems sound
13:14*andythenorth is not the set of all industry authors….but…
13:14<andythenorth>station names feature is probably the least interesting of industry properties
13:15<andythenorth>it’s kind of nice, and there’s an obligation to use it because it’s there
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13:15<andythenorth>but really it adds almost nothing :P
13:15<frosch123>it's candy
13:15<andythenorth>someone else can make some FIRS commits in future then :D
13:19<supermop>still no idea how to get this template to work
13:27<supermop>is it possible? to pull catenary sprites from two pngs?
13:28<frosch123>yes, just split your template in the middle
13:29<frosch123>or do you mean to draw multipe sprites on the same tile?
13:35<Samu>eekee: replace with: $1$2{}Aircraft Type: {STRING}
13:36<Samu>it works
13:36<Samu>end of line character was difficult to deal with
13:36<Samu>(\b) solved it
13:38<supermop>frosch123: i did this so far:
13:38<supermop>but i'm not sure how to say that tmpl_wire_bridge will use a different png file
13:39<andythenorth>59 uses of #define left in FIRS
13:39*andythenorth has a goal :P
13:41<frosch123>supermop: <- i think that works
13:42<supermop>oooh thanks!
13:42<supermop>ill try it
13:44<Samu>i think $1$2{}Aircraft Type: {STRING}$3 is better
13:44<Samu>let me test
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13:49<Samu>must find end of line differences, grrr
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13:52<mr_wee>Guten Abend zusammen
13:53<supermop>frosch123: would it be possible to test whether tram tile has road, or vis versa?
13:54<@planetmaker>frosch123, supermob: you can also create one template with two filenames as parameter
13:54<supermop>ah hmm
13:54<frosch123>supermop: we added that to the todo list the other day
13:55<supermop>I haven't compiled to test yet bc i'm also trying to add a town zone switch at the moment
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13:57<Samu>ah, it works fine either way
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14:23<andythenorth>child #1 wants a ‘industry catches fire’ disaster
14:23<andythenorth>which requires a fire plane
14:23<andythenorth>he also, left unsupervised, built 2 tile wide canals, ‘so the boats fit'
14:23<supermop>what are canal costs set at?
14:27<@planetmaker>how old is child #1? :)
14:27<@planetmaker>must be not so new anymore, is he?
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14:28<@Alberth>boats fitting in the canal are highly important
14:48<Wolf01>We should let kids play and implement their suggestions, the games will be really more fun
14:49<Wolf01>If a kid says "wtf, it shouldn't work this way", it really shouldn't work this way, kids always tell the truth
14:49<Wolf01>If a kid tells you that you have an ugly ass, you have an ugly ass :D
14:50<Eddi|zuHause>it's either that, or someone else told them you have an ugly ass, and they're just repeating what they were told.
14:51<Wolf01>So andy's kid is biased?
14:51<Wolf01>"tell'em you want double canals so ships fit"
14:52<Samu>number of spaces matter
14:52<supermop>add age verification to suggestions forum so only users under 10 can post
14:53<Wolf01>Yup >10 only flame :P
14:53<Samu>$1_TYPE$3{}Aircraft Type: {STRING}
14:53<Samu>i can rename strings like a pro now, lol
14:55<Samu>Find all "(^STR_ENGINE_PREVIEW_COST_MAX_SPEED_CAPACITY_CAPACITY_RUNCOST)( )(.*)(\b)", Regular expressions, Subfolders, Find Results 1, Entire Solution, ""
14:55<Samu>Matching lines: 56 Matching files: 56 Total files searched: 1053
14:55<Samu>there's 56 language files
14:56<Samu>clicking Replace All
14:56<frosch123>supermop: physical or mental age?
14:57<Samu>oh yesh, visual studio just opened 56 files... just so that I can "undo"
15:00<supermop>I'm going to break convention and make tram tracks more brown
15:00<supermop>otherwise they need to be too bright to show up on roads
15:02<Samu>it can compile
15:02<Samu>it's building... woah, i'm impressed
15:15<supermop>brown doesnt work - too many years of seeing rails as grey
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15:19<Samu>there are 2 language files that do not have some strings, is that intended?
15:19<Samu>found 54 occurences
15:19<Samu>the ones about aircraft range weren't found
15:20<Samu>let me find this better, wanna make sure
15:23<Samu>darn ship string getting in the way
15:23<supermop>gonna add a few rust flecks in the shadows
15:26<Samu>looks like it's intended?
15:26<Samu>there's actually 64 language files
15:26<Samu>8 unfinished
15:26<Samu>makes it 56
15:27<Samu>2 of these 56 don't have strings for displaying aircraft range in the preview window, it seems
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15:35<Samu>nevermind, i'm dumb, false alarm
15:36<Samu>it was esperanto and arabic egypt
15:36<Samu>the reason they were missing was because untraslated strings aren't even copied into the lang files
15:40<@Alberth>yep, anything missing from a translation is not translated
15:41<@Alberth>I think the strgen program handles copying, but not sure
15:49<supermop>gravel needs to be a bit darker I Wolf01, no?
15:49<Wolf01>Not sure
15:51<Wolf01>There are different colors of gravel roads, and most of them depends on usage
15:54<supermop>struglling to get tramway to show up clearly on gravel
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16:01<Wolf01>And if you forbid building tramway over gravel?
16:01<Wolf01>(not yet available at this stage, but just consider it)
16:01<supermop>that would be fine, if possible, but it might be nice to have around quarries and mines
16:02<supermop>so if I have a town zone based switch.. how does that work?
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16:05<frosch123>switch(FEAT_ROADTYPES, SELF, town_zone) { 4: center_sprites; 3: inner_sprites; 2:outer_sprites; 1:outskirt_sprites: default: faraway_sprites }
16:05<supermop>there are 5 zones? and 5 is the most center?
16:06<supermop>so 0 is like no town zone
16:06<Wolf01>0 is country
16:10<Eddi|zuHause>town zones work like this: small towns (inner) 2-1-0 (outer), large towns: (inner) 5-4-3-1-0 (outer)
16:10<supermop>so I wonder what the easiest way to use this to good effect in the grf is
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>so for large towns there is no 2, but it's split into 3+4+5
16:11<frosch123>there is no 5
16:11<supermop>perhaps some way to differentiate asphalt and hway?
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>are you sure?
16:11<frosch123>supermop: 4 should be some kind of pedestrian zone
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>i've heard lots of talk about a town zone 5
16:12<supermop>Eddi|zuHause pedestrian zone on the highway might get messy
16:12<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: look at HouseZonesBits
16:12<frosch123>the rest is about counting from 0 or from 1
16:13<frosch123>supermop: in that case, noise barriers
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>unfortunately, i cannot investigate this right now
16:13<supermop>hmm where to steal some good gpl barriers
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16:18<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: <- i guess you want to look at that
16:18<supermop>will have to just be pink lines for now, want to test
16:19<supermop>don't want to draw right now, just spent an hour trying to make tram tracks slightly brown
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16:21<supermop>in a regular small town, are there any houses in zone 0?
16:22<supermop>I find in big cities, too much of the town area is the densest zone
16:23<supermop>the radius of the center is huge compared to the thickness of the belts of outer zones
16:23<frosch123>zone 0 is still in the town
16:23<frosch123>outside of town would be zone -1, but that does not exist, and is treated like zone 0
16:24<supermop>for example, the zone with trees ends up looking like an expanding thin circle
16:25<supermop>I guess I am wondering, is there a zone without sidewalks that is still distinct from countryside
16:27<frosch123>no idea, i do not play pax games, so i am not that familar with how towns actually look like
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17:04<supermop>hmm I wonder what will happen if I draw a curved guard rail for a highway curve, and then tram on that tile goes straight
17:06<Eddi|zuHause><supermop> I guess I am wondering, is there a zone without sidewalks that is still distinct from countryside <-- no, anything that would apply sidewalks to areas not currently covered with sidewalks will add sidewalks to the whole map
17:07<Eddi|zuHause><supermop> hmm I wonder what will happen if I draw a curved guard rail for a highway curve, and then tram on that tile goes straight <-- it will look weird
17:07<supermop>trams will drive through the rail
17:07<supermop>same with noise barriers
17:07<Eddi|zuHause>but straight tram on curved road already looks a bit weird anyway
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: i would just forbid trams on highway roads
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: but that flag might not be part of the first implementation
17:08<supermop>i could wait until either forbidding tramway on roadtype, or custom fences is supported
17:11<supermop>so for now need a different way to differential regular asphalt and highway
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17:12<supermop>currently hway has shoulder and aspt has curb
17:12<supermop>aspt also has crosswalk at intersection
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17:17<supermop>100kph is also a bit fast for an asphalt town road
17:23<Eddi|zuHause>80 is max in town areas, usually
17:23<Eddi|zuHause>70 if there are traffic lights
17:24<supermop>yeah. I nudged it down to 80 to make HWAY more special, but now I need to add a faster trolleybus waytype, maybe bus guideway
17:24<supermop>not sure if trolleybuses ever go that fast
17:25<supermop>but in game seems like you'd need them to, to keep up with model progression
17:25<Eddi|zuHause>there used to be a "duobus" system where the busses go part of their way on guiderails
17:27<Eddi|zuHause>i think the intention was that they go on guiderails with trolley wire, on normal roads with trolley wire and on normal roads without trolley wire
17:27<supermop>does my switch need to go right where the roadtype block is in my code? or does it go by the graphics?
17:27<Eddi|zuHause>switches usually go near the graphics
17:28<supermop>going to ready nml specs
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>you want to keep the distance between the switch and the graphics block which uses it small
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>to not block too many switch IDs
17:36<supermop>like this?
17:38<supermop>how does my roadtype block as to use that switch?
17:47<Eddi|zuHause>your switch misses an identifier
17:47<Eddi|zuHause>and you put that identifier in the graphics block
17:47<supermop>can the id be anything i want?
17:47<Eddi|zuHause>so long as it follows the usual rules for identifier
17:48<Eddi|zuHause>so only letters, numbers and underscore (_) and first character cannot be a number
17:49<Eddi|zuHause>and, of course, it must be unique
17:49<Eddi|zuHause>(within the whole nml file)
17:50<Eddi|zuHause>(and not be a reserverd word, like "switch")
17:50<supermop>gah damn
17:50<supermop>I just wrote "asphalt_switch"
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20:13<supermop>seems the graphics block of my road doesn't recognize the name of my switch
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---Logclosed Mon Mar 06 00:00:12 2017