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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-03-14

---Logopened Tue Mar 14 00:00:24 2017
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04:55<Wolf01>o/
05:01<crem>\o
05:02<ZirconiumX>\o
05:02<Wolf01>I had nightmares after that discussion... XD
05:02<ZirconiumX>(morning everyone)
05:10<@peter1138>:-)
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05:15<Wolf01>o/
05:15<andythenorth>moin
05:15<Wolf01>Andy, read logs, please
05:15<Wolf01>Such "calc 791 / 1 / 1"
05:16*andythenorth does maths like that too :)
05:17<andythenorth>constant 1 = 8
05:17<andythenorth>constant 2 = 8
05:17<andythenorth>production / (constant 1 + constant 2)
05:17<Wolf01>But "++x->y /= z" is a shiny diamond
05:20<crem>Is ++x an lvalue?
05:20<crem>I thought it's not.
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05:20<crem>Can you do "int a = 5; ++a = 10; "?
05:21<Wolf01>Even if you can do, it's really difficult to understand at first sight
05:21<ZirconiumX>crem: Not in that context, but x is a pointer in Wolf01's example
05:22<andythenorth>Wolf01: such patches? o_O
05:22*andythenorth is refactoring FIRS
05:22<crem>Indeed it's lvalue.
05:22<ZirconiumX>So ++x->y is "add one to the memory address of x and access y"
05:22<crem>I understand the snippet.
05:22<crem>I just simplified it.
05:23<crem>It's indeed lvalue, and "int a = 5; ++a = 10; " compiles.
05:24<ZirconiumX>What's a then?
05:24<ZirconiumX>That sounds like it's borderline undefined due to sequence points
05:24<Wolf01>crem, trust us that's black magic
05:25<crem>In the end? It's unspecified most probably, yes.
05:25<ZirconiumX>According to godbolt.org, GCC without -O emits
05:26<ZirconiumX>Add 1 to a, then a = 10
05:26<ZirconiumX>Resulting in a being 10
05:27<crem>That's how it's logical to work, but I think it's unspecified behaviour because there're two mutations between sequence points.
05:29<ZirconiumX>Even at -O1, GCC converts it to "a = 10"
05:29<Wolf01>IMO he tried to study c/c++ here: http://www.ioccc.org/
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05:36<andythenorth>Wolf01: o_O ?? https://github.com/andythenorth/NotWater/issues/1
05:36<Wolf01>Oh, longer list
05:36<andythenorth>if we had deep water, we could let GS control it :P
05:37<Wolf01>:D
05:37<andythenorth>I don’t think it adds much except a way for a GS to mess with you :)
05:37<andythenorth>there was a whole edition of Railroad Tycoon with changing sea levels
05:37<@peter1138>https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6084 < sounds horrible
05:38<andythenorth>peter1138: george has a lot of ideas
05:38<andythenorth>like, a lot
05:38<andythenorth>he’s an idea machine
05:38<@peter1138>Yeah, but a secret stealthy way to make a vehicle last longer...
05:39<andythenorth>it would be probably on a cargo subtype hack, I assume
05:39<andythenorth>well it’s not the way *I’m* making grfs
05:39<andythenorth>but eh
05:39<andythenorth>who says I’m right? :P
05:40<Wolf01>BTW, I'm fine with locks for more height levels, but we should have 2 different river slopes, one with rocks and one without, so ships could use the one without
05:40<ZirconiumX>I would, really
05:41<andythenorth>Wolf01: I am +0.9 to that
05:42<andythenorth>maybe rocks should be a random chance, 1 in 5 or so
05:42<andythenorth>rivers are totally nerfed atm
05:42<Wolf01>Also... falls, different river size based on tile height?
05:43<andythenorth>river generation should be able to make bigger rivers
05:43<andythenorth>yes
05:43<Wolf01>Yeah... the current ones are moats
05:43*andythenorth wonders if ‘rapids are 1 in 5 chance’ is an easy patch
05:43<andythenorth>famous last words :P
05:43<Wolf01>Also there is no chance a ship would travel to a mountain peak along a river...
05:43<ZirconiumX>It's easy until you start coding
05:43<@peter1138>:D
05:44<andythenorth>probably needs an ‘is rapids’ bit
05:44<andythenorth>and savegame migration and so on
05:44<andythenorth>or a ‘tile is navigable’ bit and no savegame migration :P
05:45<Wolf01>Just make it a setting (only for map generation, like map height)
05:45<Wolf01>Rivers over 16 tile height are rapids
05:46<andythenorth>interesting
05:46<Wolf01>For old saves it matches the map height, so no river is "converted"
05:47<andythenorth>does ship pathfinder need converted?
05:47<andythenorth>or does concept of navigable / non-navigable slopes already exist?
05:48<andythenorth>peter1138: I’m applying frosch approach: ignore all feature requests ;)
05:48<andythenorth>then they all look valid
05:48<@peter1138>I closed some.
05:48<Wolf01>Currently no slope is navigable
05:48<andythenorth>do locks have a bit?
05:48*andythenorth is away from docs
05:49<@peter1138>Oh hey, I had a patch for locks didn't I?
05:49<@peter1138>But it made ships worse...
05:49<andythenorth>what did it do? o_O
05:49<@peter1138>Stops the ships to me them go up and down.
05:49<andythenorth>sounds tedious
05:49<andythenorth>:D
05:50<@peter1138>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sD4oOe-8Bk8
05:50<@peter1138>That one.
05:50<Wolf01>It just missed some lock animation
05:51<andythenorth>those ships are awful :)
05:51<andythenorth>who made them?
05:51<ZirconiumX>"you did"
05:51<ZirconiumX>:p
05:51<@peter1138>Not really that would require 1) extra graphics 2) making locks accept only 1 ship at a time. And that would make locks far worse.
05:52<ZirconiumX>Is this a case of intentionally being unrealistic to avoid making ships worse?
05:53<@peter1138>There was a massive backlash against anything vaguely "realistic" so we don't bother.
05:54<andythenorth>also we’d have to have newgrf graphics
05:54<andythenorth>to allow correct locks for specific locations
05:54<andythenorth>then a choice of locks, like stations
05:54<andythenorth>and a filling-rate property or callback
05:54<andythenorth>and chance of lock breakdown
05:54<andythenorth>and a state machine for correct animation
05:54<andythenorth>and a max ship length
05:54<andythenorth>meanwhile http://www.thousandislandslife.com/Portals/Properties/images/News-Articles/2008/Dec-photos/WLW-TwoRecentCenturies_139FE-Lachine%20Rapids-8x6.jpg
05:55<Wolf01>It doesn't make ships worse, it makes them challenging, also we have all the freedom we want... locks and rivers aren't some original feature and we can change it
05:59<@peter1138>I'm pretty sure there was an issue trying to make the water move up & down as well.
05:59<@peter1138>And then you might think, oh have multiple locks to speed it up
05:59<@peter1138>But then you need to adjust the pathfinder...
05:59<@peter1138>And then...
06:00<Wolf01>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SacogDL_4JU andythenorth, tensorflow used to make music
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06:09*andythenorth biab
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06:10<samu>hi
06:11<@peter1138>Wolf01, that's... awkward.
06:11<Wolf01>Yeah, I'm really impressed
06:11<@peter1138>Shame the piano synth is unbearable.
06:12<crem>Undistinguiashable from what a human would generate!
06:13<Wolf01>Computers will replace us someday :D
06:13<@peter1138>THE HUMANS ARE DEAD
06:13<@peter1138>WE POISONED THEIR ASSES, WITH POISONOUS GASSES
06:14<Wolf01>I would like to know what they will think after some centuries... "why humans died?"
06:15<crem>But this thing https://www.jukedeck.com/ generates ok-ish music (to be played as background in videos)
06:15<crem>Registration required to generate, so don't bother.
06:15<Wolf01>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEekXRNztVI <- stunning how I could jump from music to lego trains in a blink
06:16<@peter1138>The internet!
06:16<Wolf01>This one looks like lego factorio
06:18<samu>how do i get the maximum value that can be set on a setting? i wanna avoid magic number stuff
06:18<Wolf01>INT_MAX
06:18<samu>_settings_game.vehicle.plane_speed , i know the range is from 1 to 4
06:18<samu>i want to get the max value
06:19<samu>if (this->state == FLYING) this->current_flight_time += 12 / _settings_game.vehicle.plane_speed;
06:19<samu>that 12
06:19<@peter1138>hehe
06:19<@peter1138>12
06:19<Wolf01>I expected 42
06:20<samu>i wanna change it to 3 * max value of _settings_game.vehicle.plane_speed
06:20<samu>which is 4
06:20<Wolf01>That is a nice way to have a divisible integer.. just make sure it is multiplied by the nearest common multiple
06:21<samu>oh, so it's a bad way to do it
06:21<Wolf01>I didn't say that
06:21<@peter1138>Bah, 140 miles behind target.
06:22<samu>but i see what you mean
06:31<samu>if the cap is changed to 5 in some new version of openttd
06:31<samu>3*5 = 15
06:31<Wolf01>Use 60 then
06:32<samu>but then 15/5, 15/4, 15/3, 15/2 and 15/1 won't all result as integer
06:33<samu>yeah, 60 is the answer, but how do i calculate that
06:33<samu>how do i get to that
06:34<samu>how to compute the "divisible integer"
06:35<Wolf01>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Least_common_multiple
06:37<samu>nice, thx
06:40<@peter1138>Why does current flight time care about plane speed anyway
06:45<samu>because if the factor is modified, it will travel more tiles in less times
06:45<samu>or less tiles in more time
06:45<samu>perhaps i should rename it
06:47<Wolf01>I would calculate it on plane size
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07:01<samu>"the least common multiple of consecutive integers"
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08:44<Wolf01>https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/a3qEpw1_460s.jpg ahahah smart kid
08:44<andythenorth>yeah
08:44<andythenorth>they do that
08:45<Wolf01>Too bad that when they grow up they become brainless idiots
08:47<Wolf01>I blame society
08:49<Wolf01>https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/avG5X7W_460s.jpg V's dog...
08:52<@planetmaker>lol @ wolf :)
08:55<samu>how do i get the max value of a setting
08:56<samu>something like int x = _settings_game.vehicle.plane_speed
08:56<samu>but for the maximum value that can be set
08:56<samu>not the currently set valuye
08:57<Snail>@calc 30/2.5
08:57<@DorpsGek>Snail: 12
08:59<__ln__>oh, microsoft's bing translator translates to/from klingon!
08:59<Wolf01>Samu, do you even try?
08:59<samu>i tried, don't know how to do it
09:00<samu>seems that i need SettingsDesc
09:00<samu>have to access settings.ini
09:01<samu>settings.h i mean
09:01<samu>table/settings.h
09:01<__ln__>Dun jaj batlhchaj tera' 'ej tlhInganpu'.
09:02<Wolf01>Lol
09:03<samu>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/p77ob0ltw
09:03<samu>this is what i've came to
09:03<Wolf01>Too bad it doesn't work with visual translation for eastern languages
09:03<samu>for (int i = 1; i <= 4; i++) {
09:03<samu>this line was supposed to be
09:04<samu>for int i = min value of game settings bla bla; i <= max value of game settings bla bla; i++) {
09:04<samu>how do i retrieve those values :(
09:04<@peter1138>Do you think it will ever change?
09:04<Wolf01>You said that, SettingDesc
09:04<LordAro>samu: generally, by searching through the code for existing examples
09:05<LordAro>evidently no one else knows
09:06<samu>i know it's going from 1 to 4, but it can change some day, i dunno
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09:06<@peter1138>More like nobody else wants to do something so hideous.
09:06<LordAro>probably that too
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09:09<LordAro>samu: however, it looks like you want GetSettingFromName
09:09<LordAro>and go from there
09:10<samu>ok, let me try
09:23<@peter1138>https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6302 < i'm definitely ashamed of that patch
09:24<andythenorth>that’s standard UI programming :P
09:24<andythenorth>it’s always a hack
09:25<LordAro>haha
09:31<Wolf01>https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aNAp2oA_460s.jpg lol
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09:57<supermop>man work vpn is so slow
10:03<supermop>andythenorth: is 2cc trams can't be persuaded, and zeph is missing
10:04<supermop>I guess next step is i try to add more nrt stuff in a ogfx+ add on?
10:04<supermop>there are a couple abandoned trolleybus sets out there
10:05<@planetmaker>supermop, I guess, with proper version query, this can be simply added to stock ogfx+
10:05<@planetmaker>though not entirely sure... would need to check how to find out the openttd version in a non-linear way, I guess
10:14<supermop>sounds like the solution is to just go ahead and squeeze nrt in before the 1.7 release in two weeks
10:15<supermop>:)
10:15<samu>uint plane_speed_max = GetSettingFromName("vehicle.plane_speed", &plane_speed_max)->desc.max;
10:15<samu>thx LordAro, i did it
10:16<andythenorth>planetmaker: for Road Hog I just branched
10:16<samu>if (this->state == FLYING) this->current_flight_time += CommonWhatever(plane_speed_max) / _settings_game.vehicle.plane_speed;
10:16<andythenorth>jenkins hates me, because I had to specify an nml path on my local OS
10:21<andythenorth>quick!! unrelease 1.4.0 https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5949
10:26<ZirconiumX>How would you even go about that?
10:26<ZirconiumX>Unreleasing something
10:27<Wolf01><supermop> sounds like the solution is to just go ahead and squeeze nrt in before the 1.7 release in two weeks <- cool but no... to many missing features, I don't want a bunch of awesome grfs which need to be reworked when road sidings and other flags will be added
10:29<@planetmaker>andythenorth, branched what? OpenTTD?
10:29<@planetmaker>or that newgrf to get the nrt stuff in? I guess that :)
10:29<@planetmaker>I guess branching is the easiest, yes
10:29<andythenorth>planetmaker: I branched Road Hog yes ;)
10:29<andythenorth>jenkins has no way to use the forked nml compiler though
10:30<@planetmaker>hm... forked nml... that's more difficult yes
10:30<@planetmaker>it has ways to use it, but it needs probably ssh to the server
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10:30<@planetmaker>in order to setup that stuff
10:30<@planetmaker>quak
10:31<Wolf01>Quak
10:31<@planetmaker>andythenorth, where's the nml fork?
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10:33<andythenorth>https://github.com/andythenorth/nml-andythenorth/tree/NotRoadTypes
10:33<@planetmaker>oh... :|
10:34<@planetmaker>that definitely excludes it from adding it quickly, sorry
10:34<andythenorth>it could be pushed to devzone
10:34<andythenorth>but eh
10:35<andythenorth>it’s fine for me, I can compile locally :)
10:35<andythenorth>but jenkins has angry red
10:35<@planetmaker>?
10:35<andythenorth>maybe I should disable builds on the branch
10:35<andythenorth>https://jenkins.openttdcoop.org/job/road-hog/
10:36<andythenorth>oh actually maybe it’s python failing there
10:36<andythenorth>when it starts going continuosly red, errors get ignored :)
10:37<@planetmaker>you always break stuff. That's why I'm not concerned about red on your projects :P
10:38<andythenorth>I try to keep them green, but eh
10:38<andythenorth>I don’t read email, and I’m not much in coop channel, so I miss the warnings
10:39<ZirconiumX>*cough* Travis
10:39<ZirconiumX>Sorry.
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10:39<@planetmaker>it anyway dwindled down to a build log
10:39<frosch123>moi
10:39<@planetmaker>and thus a status log of your builds :P
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10:59<andythenorth>so reproing OS X bugs like this one….
11:00<ZirconiumX>POSOSX
11:00<andythenorth>needs the correct version of OS X, correct OpenTTD and the correct version of all newgrfs? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5949
11:01<frosch123>worse :)
11:02<andythenorth>same hardware? o_O
11:02<frosch123>you need also an ottd server to connect to which reproduced the same event sequence
11:02<andythenorth>so it’s never happening eh? o_O
11:02<frosch123>on the plus side, i don't think it would be osx related
11:02<andythenorth>unless we somehow virtualise the whole world, and do it in a simulation
11:02<andythenorth>actually simulated reality would kick ass for bug fixing
11:03<andythenorth>we should work on that
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11:03<frosch123>step 1: get rid of all human players?
11:04<frosch123>step 2: clarify whether that includes V
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11:05<andythenorth>step 2 takes a while
11:06<__ln__>https://twitter.com/Holbornlolz/status/841554012298190848
11:06<frosch123>step 2 is always the difficult part
11:06<frosch123>but step 3 is profit
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11:07<andythenorth>is it a tube race __ln__ ?
11:07*andythenorth didn’t watch to end
11:07<__ln__>it is
11:07<andythenorth>think my brother tried that
11:07<andythenorth>probably lost
11:07<@Alberth>o/
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11:12<andythenorth>if FIRS wasn’t 483279 lines of nml, would it compile faster? o_O
11:12<andythenorth>:P
11:15<@Alberth>delete the empty lines :p
11:15<ZirconiumX>andythenorth: computers boot faster when they have less to load, so if you wipe your hard drive they boot immediately
11:15<@Alberth>and all double white-space :p
11:15<@Alberth>ha :)
11:16<@Alberth>my first computer booted from ROM, now that was fast :p
11:16<ZirconiumX>Exactly
11:16<@Alberth>disconnect the HD :p
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11:18<@Alberth>o/ supermop
11:18<frosch123>old computers were also really fast to turn off :p
11:19<@Alberth>my fedora gnome is quite fast with that, tbh
11:20<@Alberth>now it would be useful if it could also open a gui window :p
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11:21<andythenorth>biab
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11:33<@peter1138>derp
11:34<@peter1138>There was never a use for fast ships, was there?
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11:34<crem>Before 20th century there were.
11:34<@Alberth>well, on occasion, people want race ships :p
11:35<crem>Actually yes, for entertaiment for sure.
11:35<@Alberth>speedy delivery of them mailbags
11:35<@peter1138>Yeah but... 80km/h+
11:35<@peter1138>?
11:35<@peter1138>(Convert to knots as pedantic)
11:36<@Alberth>don't you know realism limits apply selectively?
11:36<@peter1138>More like adding complexity for no reason
11:37<@Alberth>that too, but not a player consideration :)
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11:47<frosch123>peter1138: i believe people tried to make ecranoplanes as ships
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11:54<samu>i'm undecided if I store this variable as uint16 or uint32
11:55<samu>@calc 65535 / 74 / 4
11:55<@DorpsGek>samu: 221.402027027
11:56<samu>221 days in flight
11:57<crem>That's not extremely realistic.
11:57<crem>Also, probably passengers are a bit bored after 221 days.
11:57<samu>in openttd days
11:57<samu>game days
11:57<crem>But they surely know all each other well.
11:59<samu>‭4294967295‬@calc
11:59<samu>oops
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11:59<samu>@calc 4294967295 / 74 / 4
11:59<@DorpsGek>samu: 14510024.6453
12:00<crem>@google Calories in 400 tons of butter.
12:00<samu>this many days
12:00<samu>@calc 14510024 / 365
12:00<@DorpsGek>samu: 39753.490411
12:01<samu>39 753 years
12:01<samu>is there a middle container, something between uint16 and uint32?
12:01<@Alberth>not for storage
12:02<@Alberth>you can of course only use 20 bits of the 32 :p
12:02<@Alberth>or 24 bits (3 bytes)
12:02<samu>uint24?
12:03<@Alberth>doesn't exist
12:03<@Alberth>don't worry about that single byte, it's not worth the trouble
12:04<samu>isn't uint32 something quite too large to be computed daily for all aircraft?
12:04<samu>erm, not daily, tickly
12:04<samu>rip performance
12:04<crem>32-bit arithmetics are the same, if not faster, than 16-bit one.
12:05<crem>For x64 the same is true for 64-bit numbers.
12:05<@Alberth>the real saver in performance would be not to increment ticks each tick
12:05<crem>How many ticks are there per second?
12:06<@Alberth>crem: there is the L1/L2 cache issue :p
12:06<@Alberth>longer numbers use more cache
12:07<crem>Well.. ok :)
12:07<andythenorth>uint24? o_O
12:08<andythenorth>oh that was said already
12:08<andythenorth>trolling fail :)
12:08<@Alberth>o/ andy
12:08<crem>uint24 would be slower than either uint16 and uint32 on many architectures due to alignment.
12:09<crem>(need to read 2 machine words in some cases rather than 1)
12:09<samu>i think 221 days in flight can occur on very large maps
12:09<frosch123>20 years ago, graphics card had uint24 :)
12:09<frosch123>and floppys had fat12
12:09<@Alberth>if you have a few million aircraft, 24bit makes sense
12:10<crem>It's memory usage vs of performance tradeoff.
12:10<crem>And samu was worried about performance.
12:11<@Alberth>save the start time, and performance ceases to be a problem
12:11<@Alberth>samu: what is supposed to happen?
12:12<Wolf01>o/ Alberth
12:12<samu>there's plane speed factor which can be changed at any time
12:12<@Alberth>is $random long flight time to know exactly to the tick?
12:12<samu>anywhere
12:12<samu>at any tick, i think
12:13<@Alberth>ie does it make a difference beteen 221 and 220 days, eg
12:13<@Alberth>or is "long" enough to store?
12:13<samu>probably doesn't make a difference, i could try counting it every day, just wanted to be as thorough as possible
12:14<samu>but then changing the plane speed factor might affect the result slightly
12:14<@Alberth>it's less flying or something?
12:15<@Alberth>o/ Wolf01
12:15<samu>sec, let me copy paste patch
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12:16<samu>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pri7bzd6e
12:17<samu>this is what i have so far... just noticed i mixed lifetime profit patch with it, lol
12:17<samu>ignore the lifetime profit stuff, it's not mine
12:19<samu>line 145 is to be edited yet, i have not finished it
12:19<@peter1138>yeah well what are you even doing with this flight time thing?
12:20<samu>breakdown the aircraft
12:20<samu>if it goes past a certain value
12:20<samu>which i have yet to figure out
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12:22<@peter1138>and you want it to be affected by plane speed?
12:22<Wolf01>I tried to tell him to calculate it based on plane size :(
12:22<samu>only the plane speed factor
12:23<@peter1138>so when plane speed makes planes slow, they can last longer? or less time?
12:23<@Alberth>start with the simplest possible form of counting, then figure what you actually want
12:23<@Alberth>+out
12:23<samu>basically they will travel the same distance before the plane enters breakdown, no matter the plane speed factor that is set
12:24<samu>at least that's what i was trying to achieve
12:24<@peter1138>ok
12:24<@peter1138>why not just use distance?
12:25<samu>which distance? between stations?
12:25<samu>because aircraft can be ordered to go somewhere else mid flight
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12:28<samu>also, aircraft travel faster on axis than diagonal, wouldn't be accurate
12:29<LordAro>accuracy is not something ottd's known for
12:29<andythenorth>so I’ve got #includes in my generated nml
12:29<andythenorth>but they don’t exist in my repo :P
12:29<Wolf01>Livery also changes air drag, red is fast
12:32<andythenorth>oh
12:33<andythenorth>file was open in text editor, unsaved to disk
12:33<supermop_home>ive done that
12:33<andythenorth>editor has a multiple-files search, but that looks at editor state of any open files, not filesystem state
12:33<andythenorth>oops
12:33<LordAro>everyone's done that
12:34<andythenorth>I thought the editor was 100% using the disk
12:34<andythenorth>as it has to select a path :P
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12:35<samu>trying to figure out a "max_distance_before_forced_breakdown" value now
12:36<samu>not really distance distance
12:36<samu>distance with plane factor accounted
12:36<samu>i dunno what to call the variable, but it's of that nature
12:38<@peter1138>Hmm, I guess that affected everyone's task list on flyspray...
12:38<@peter1138>Added the last edited column, but it seems to be project wide not per user.
12:39<Wolf01>Yes, it's project wide
12:39<@peter1138>Oops.
12:39<Wolf01>But IIRC there's something for users too
12:39<LordAro>peter1138: heh
12:39<andythenorth>new flyspray :P
12:39<andythenorth>move it all!
12:40<samu>currently sending an helicopter accross a 4096x4096 map in debug mode... zzzzz
12:40*LordAro hears TB screaming in the background
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12:42<samu>wanna see its final flight_counter value
12:42<@peter1138>Hmm, better not commit all these Console.WriteLines...
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12:43<samu>why is debug mode so slow :(
12:43<andythenorth>debugging innit :)
12:43<@Alberth>press FF :p
12:44<samu>it's sluggish
12:45<samu>gonna try release mode, i can't wait this long, hope i can still read value
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12:52<andythenorth>just 3 #defines left in FIRS
12:52<andythenorth>what is done, is not always easily undone :P
12:53<andythenorth>and this is how we learn about separating data from presentation
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12:53<andythenorth>although /me already knew about that, and is removing other people’s work :)
12:56<samu>@calc 4096 / 256
12:56<@DorpsGek>samu: 16
12:56<samu>@calc 28000 * 16
12:56<@DorpsGek>samu: 448000
12:59<samu>0x7FFFF
13:00<samu>2^19
13:00<@peter1138>++x->y /= z
13:00<@peter1138>surely
13:00<samu>@calc 2^19
13:00<@DorpsGek>samu: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
13:01<samu>@calc 2*2*2*2*2*2*2*2*2*2*2*2*2*2*2*2*2*2*2
13:01<@DorpsGek>samu: 524288
13:01<samu>there is no uint19 :(
13:02<LordAro>why does that matter?
13:02<LordAro>that would be ridiculously inefficent to implement
13:03<andythenorth>isn’t there something about allocating memory in 8s? :P
13:03<@Alberth>make a 1 bit computer, and hook 19 of them after each other
13:03*andythenorth is not a programmer
13:04<@Alberth>transputer did something in that direction iirc
13:05*LordAro needs to write some stuff about that at some point
13:05<samu>well, i'm probably changing it to uint16, limit would be around ~221 days in flight
13:06<samu>or maybe i should count it daily instead of tickly
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13:07<samu>and lose some accuracy
13:07<LordAro>you're allowed to use an integer bigger than you need
13:07<andythenorth>Alberth: this transputer? o_O https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transputer
13:08<@Alberth>think so
13:09<andythenorth>eventually became XMOS, near my office :)
13:10<andythenorth>I know David May, the co-inventor of the transputer, although only approximately :)
13:10<@Alberth>doesn't seem to talk about 1 bit computers that you connect
13:11<@Alberth>although it had very advanced multi-tasking capabilities
13:12<@Alberth>synchronous communication between processes, in hardware
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13:15<andythenorth>yeah can’t find any 1 bit things there :)
13:18<andythenorth>Alberth: the CPP is nearly gone from FIRS…that clears the way for a....
13:18<andythenorth>…new makefile :D
13:19<@Alberth>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1-bit_architecture they do exist :p
13:19<andythenorth>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connection_Machine o_O
13:20<@Alberth>not sure how makefile and not running cpp is connected, but \o/ :)
13:21<andythenorth>less complexity
13:21<andythenorth>therefore easier replacement
13:22<@Alberth>fair enough :)
13:22<@Alberth>computer with lots of blinking lights always wins :)
13:23<LordAro>^
13:23<andythenorth>says they had to blink the lights deliberately, for effect :)
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13:41<@peter1138>hi
13:42<samu>helicopter has arrived!
13:42<samu>flight_counter 419853 unsigned __int64
13:42<@peter1138>Did it autorenew?
13:43<samu>crossed a map from right to left, 4096x4096 tiles
13:43<samu>the 321 km/h heli
13:44<samu>that is... many days
13:45<samu>@calc 419853 / 74 / 4
13:45<@DorpsGek>samu: 1418.4222973
13:45<samu>1418 days
13:46<samu>much higher than the cap of ~221
13:47<samu>yeah, think it's time to store this in days insted
13:47<samu>@calc 65536 / 4
13:47<@DorpsGek>samu: 16384
13:47<samu>brb
13:51<andythenorth>oops
13:51<andythenorth>threw my backup drive across the room :P
13:52<ZirconiumX>Not much of a backup now
13:53<LordAro>do you have a backup backup?
13:54<andythenorth>it’s an SSD
13:54<andythenorth>seems fine :P
13:55<@peter1138>How fancy are you!
13:58<andythenorth>I should be on telly
13:58<andythenorth>that’s how good I am
13:59*peter1138 ponders trying to fix this helicopter issue
13:59<andythenorth>SSD backup was kind of an accident, not because I bleed gold when I cut myself :)
14:00<@peter1138>That's a shame, I was going to tap an artery.
14:00<andythenorth>bought a new laptop 3 years ago, pulled the SSD from the old laptop to transfer files over…
14:00<andythenorth>put it in a case, voila, SSD backup :P
14:02*andythenorth wonders how much SSD is these days
14:02<andythenorth>long time since I bought one
14:02<@peter1138>Not a lot for the smaller ones.
14:03<andythenorth>a shitload for the bigger ones
14:03*andythenorth looking on crucial
14:04<andythenorth>yeah and no, I’ll keep my 1TB spinning disk other backup
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14:11<ZirconiumX>o/
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14:33<frosch123>i wondered, should we rename opntitle.dat to opntitle.sav? just so people do not have to ask how to load the titlegame?
14:37<Eddi|zuHause>no, that would make too much sense
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14:40<LordAro>symlink :p
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14:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27795 trunk/src/lang/luxembourgish.txt (2017-03-14 19:45:36 +0100 )
14:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from Eints:
14:45<@DorpsGek>luxembourgish: 3 changes by Phreeze
14:50<andythenorth>frosch123: and why not? :)
14:51<andythenorth>renaming things is a feature
14:51<frosch123>i can't tell whether that is a yay or nah
14:52<andythenorth>.dat means nothing to me
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14:52<andythenorth>.sav does
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15:00<ZirconiumX>For a dedicated server, does libLZMA matter?
15:00<@Rubidium>frosch123: just imagine what the "reverse" effect would be... questions whether OpenTTD crashes upon starting due to NewGRFs in the intro game
15:00<frosch123>does no longer happen
15:01<frosch123>if there are newgrf in the intro game, it goes to water-only
15:01<frosch123>it's a hidden but intentional side-effect of the town-newgrf fix :)
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15:02<@Rubidium>well, then: why it doesn't load the savegame I named to opntitle.sav?
15:02<Eddi|zuHause>ZirconiumX: no, only for loading specific savegames
15:02<@Rubidium>what's more common?
15:02<ZirconiumX>Cheers
15:02<frosch123>possible, we can easier blame people who rename their files into .dat :)
15:02<Eddi|zuHause>ZirconiumX: however, lzma2 (or xz) provides the best (tm) compression
15:03<ZirconiumX>Which is why new savegames use lzo2 :p
15:03<@Rubidium>ZirconiumX: only caveat is that lzma is the best compromise between time and size for the compression of savegame in case of network transfer
15:03<samu>make it multi-threaded ploz
15:03<ZirconiumX>I ask because I'm cross-compiling for my raspberry pi (don't ask)
15:04<ZirconiumX>So building liblzma and liblzo2 purely for this would be awkward
15:06<@Rubidium>samu: that's not really helping. The most "wasted" time is in cloning the game state and network transfer; after the cloning compression starts in a separate thread and whenever enough bits are compressed to send to the client, they are sent to the client. From that moment on it's mostly network IO
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>ZirconiumX: you might have trouble getting things from bananas if you skip essential compression algorithms
15:06<@Rubidium>that's causing the delays
15:07<ZirconiumX>Eddi|zuHause: curl <blah> | tar
15:07<ZirconiumX>Etc
15:07<ZirconiumX>Or a wget
15:07<Eddi|zuHause>not what i meant
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>ZirconiumX: with curl/wget you can't ask bananas for specific not-newest versions of files
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>whereas the ingame download can handle that
15:09<ZirconiumX>This is for a dedicated server
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>so?
15:10<ZirconiumX>So bananas is irrelevant for testing
15:10<Eddi|zuHause>you make a savegame on your client, upload it to the server, and tell it to fetch the dependencies
15:14<ZirconiumX>Side note
15:14<ZirconiumX>Wasn't there a flag to set the version of a compile?
15:14<ZirconiumX>--with-version=BLAH or something?
15:15<Eddi|zuHause>even if there was, you should not use it
15:15<frosch123>it was burned at high temperature
15:15<ZirconiumX>Okay, so I just have to live with OpenTTD being very well designed.
15:15<frosch123>after coop used to configure completely random revisions and then complained about desyncs
15:17<ZirconiumX>I have a client compile versioned "jgrpp-0.17.2", and a server compile versioned "jgrpp-0.17.2-14" and the two won't talk to each other.
15:17<ZirconiumX>Despite being built from the same source code.
15:17<ZirconiumX>Sorry,
15:18<ZirconiumX>server is "jgrpp-0.17.2-44-gd14d573"
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>everything before the g<xxx> is the branch/tag name
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15:55<andythenorth>gah backups are boring
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15:55<andythenorth>200GB takes 2 hours :(
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16:03*andythenorth teddybear moaning
16:04<Wolf01>:)
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16:11<Eddi|zuHause>generally, if something takes 2 hours, maybe you should be looking for something else to do... watching it will make it take longer
16:12<frosch123>he was looking into moaning about it
16:12<frosch123>does that count?
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>you know what i hate about python? that you quit the interactive shell differently on windows and linux
16:16<frosch123>i wouldn't know
16:16<frosch123>never used it on windows
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>on linux you type ^D and on windows you type ^Z[enter]
16:18<frosch123>well, just use ^Z on linux as well
16:18<frosch123>and get used to type "fg" to restart it
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>well, that doesn't really "quit" :p
16:18<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I have many other things to do :)
16:19<frosch123>"have to do" or "doing"?
16:19<andythenorth>doing
16:19<frosch123>:)
16:19<andythenorth>if you don’t have kids, bed time is hard to explain :P
16:19<andythenorth>much tears today
16:20<andythenorth>child #2 wanted me to continue reading the snake book, and is in tears because I stopped before the boa constrictor page
16:20<andythenorth>also he trapped his finger in a door and has a big piece of skin hanging off
16:20<andythenorth>child #1 is learning swift (Apple’s fake javascript or whatever it is)
16:21<andythenorth>and is in tears because the tutorial is teaching him how to nest common code into repeatable functions, and he just wants to repeat his commands long-hand
16:21<frosch123>when i am reading the favorite books of my nice and nephew, i usually alter the story incrementally, until they notice :)
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>haha :p
16:22<andythenorth>it’s a good tactic
16:22<andythenorth>gets interesting when they can actually read
16:22<frosch123>usually they are upset :)
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>reminds me of my (younger) sister, she used to be bad at reading, so when reading comics she just looked at the pictures and made up a story for them, instead of reading the speech bubbles
16:23<frosch123>nah, i mean that kind of books which they know every word of, and could "read" without being able to "read"
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>my (even younger) brother always corrected her
16:24<frosch123>at some point they want people to read the books to them, but are actually too bored to listen since they know it already
16:24<frosch123>then i troll them by altering the story
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>my nephew has a CD player, and when he wants to restart the disk, he doesn't use the stop/play button, but he opens it up and closes it again (it will then auto-play)
16:26<andythenorth>just pushed the last removal of CPP from FIRS
16:26<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: he, i was once looking at old photos with my nice, and pointed out my sister on them by saying "see, that is <name of sister>". but then my nice insistet on the person being her mother :p
16:28<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: there exists a picture of my father as a kid, and when i was that age, my parents showed that picture to me and my siblings, and everybody agreed that it was me on that picture
16:28<frosch123>yep, i also know some son/father pairs like that. esp. funny if your put photos of them next to each other
16:28<frosch123>on some shelf
16:31<andythenorth>child #2 looked exactly like me when he was a baby
16:31<andythenorth>but…not like I did when I was a baby :P
16:31<andythenorth>have we closed any more bugs? o_O
16:31<andythenorth>I tried to make sense of the OS X bugs, but eh
16:32<frosch123>shall i open more for you to fix?
16:33<andythenorth>I think you are playing a different game :P
16:34<andythenorth>my game is always to be left with a handful of issues / tickets :P
16:34<andythenorth>like this http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/chips/issues
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16:36<frosch123>well, i create tickets for bugs which i hope other would fix
16:36<frosch123>i don't care about creating tickets for myself
16:37<andythenorth>those chips tickets, I am hoping yexo will come back and fix :P
16:37<andythenorth>it’s been a while :)
16:38<frosch123>hmm, maybe i could use chips as testcase
16:38<andythenorth>for ..? o_O
16:39<frosch123>i was considering to start nml from the other end
16:39<frosch123>and write a grf linker
16:39<frosch123>which takes multiple intermediately compiled input files, and links them into a grf
16:40<andythenorth>for faster, or better in other ways?
16:40<frosch123>both :p
16:41<frosch123>separation of abstraction layers and stuff
16:42<andythenorth>I redesigned nml on March 4th :P http://webster.openttdcoop.org/?channel=openttd&date=1488585600#1488611173
16:42<andythenorth>Alberth helped, but don’t blame him for my ideas, it wasn’t his fault
16:42<andythenorth>I was looking at the declaration end
16:43<frosch123>i know, but i wanted to start at the other end
16:43<frosch123>since that appeared to be least explored
16:43<andythenorth>I can see why :)
16:43<andythenorth>I could pretty much test my ideas with some horrible python, it’s a low skill requirement
16:45<frosch123>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pbxt65dfc?/pbxt65dfc <- wrt. nml syntax, i colllected that some time ago
16:45<andythenorth>I recall that
16:48<frosch123>night
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16:54<@Alberth>:o more nml movements :)
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17:11<samu>v->flight_counter = ClampU(v->flight_counter + m / _settings_game.vehicle.plane_speed, 0, UINT16_MAX / speed_factor_max);
17:12<samu>is ClampU going to do what I'm thinking it's gonna do?
17:13<samu>if the value exceeds 16383 and flight counter is above that value, set it to always be 16383
17:13<samu>speed_factor_max is 4
17:15<samu>flight_counter is being checked daily
17:15<samu>it can check for a max of 16383 days then
17:16<samu>because flight_counter is a uint16
17:17<@Alberth>oh, just 16K-ish, not even near any limit
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17:20<samu>flight_counter is 4 times that value
17:20<samu>65536 / 4
17:21<samu>or .. wait a minute
17:23<samu>m / _settings_game.vehicle.plane_speed
17:23<samu>ya, m is 12
17:24<samu>i must be doing something wrong, grrr... brb
17:33<samu>nop, it's correct
17:33<samu>1 day at speed factor 1/4 counts as 3 per day
17:34<samu>1 day at speed factor 1/3 counts as 4 per day
17:34<samu>1 day at speed factor 1/2 counts as 6 per day
17:34<samu>1 day at speed factor 1/1 counts as 12 per day
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17:35<samu>5461 days, that's a bit less than i initially thought
17:35<samu>but still plenty
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17:37<samu>@calc 65536 / 3
17:37<@DorpsGek>samu: 21845.3333333
17:37<samu>@calc 65536 / 4
17:37<@DorpsGek>samu: 16384
17:37<samu>@calc 65536 / 6
17:37<@DorpsGek>samu: 10922.6666667
17:37<samu>@calc 65536 / 12
17:37<@DorpsGek>samu: 5461.33333333
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17:39<supermop>yo
17:39<supermop>tired from trudging in snow
17:39<samu>hi
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17:43<samu>pseudo-days
17:46<supermop>don't have to energy to comment in DOO thread
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17:59<samu>it's correct after all, i was just being dumb, it's sad how I forget why I did the things the way I did
17:59<samu>alzeimer
17:59<samu>i will have a sad life when i get older
18:00<Eddi|zuHause>what's a DOO thread?
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18:20<supermop>driver only operation
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19:06<andythenorth>Mashinky eh? http://www.mashinky.com/
19:08<andythenorth>also bed time
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19:28<samu>5461 is a weird cap
19:29<samu>max days in flight before aircraft breakdowns
19:29<samu>range can go from 0 to 5461
19:31<samu>as long as max speed factor is kept at 4, max days can go to a max of 5461
19:31<samu>@calc 5461 / 365
19:31<@DorpsGek>samu: 14.9616438356
19:32<samu>14 years ought to be enough to travel from 1 corner to another on a 4096x4096 map
19:46<@peter1138>Evening.
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19:53<samu>STR_CONFIG_SETTING_PLANE_BREAKDOWN_DAY - lel, this name... so strange
19:53<@peter1138>Right, what do I need to work on?
19:53<Wolf01>I think I'll try to work my way towards the bed
19:53<samu>fix the rail placement on tile with a ship, plz
19:54<samu>not to be confused with rail upgrade
19:54<Wolf01>But I know I'll stay here for about another hour
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19:54<samu>btw awesome work peter1138, you care!
19:54<samu>i really appreciate it
19:55<samu>also thx to michi_cc for that dpi
19:58<samu>PLANE_BREAKDOWN_DIST seems better
20:00<samu>I'm setting a default of 100, seems to be good enough for a 256x256 map
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20:15<samu>so confused, it's neither days, nor distance
20:15<samu>how would I describe this setting
20:15<Wolf01>If not time or space, then must be speed
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20:16<samu>it's both time and space
20:17<samu>it resembles "range", but it's not working like the other one
20:18<samu>if it travels xxx tiles, it breakdowns
20:18<samu>but it's not tiles
20:21<samu>i'm putting distance, but then the user sees a value of 100, and may think they're tiles
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20:22<samu>I'm putting days, but then the user sees that the aircraft breakdowns earlier than the set value
20:22<samu>due to plane_factor being factored in
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20:44<Wolf01>Time to bed
20:44<samu>STR_CONFIG_SETTING_PLANE_BREAKDOWN_DAY :Days before breaking down during a flight: {STRING2}
20:44<Wolf01>'night
20:44<samu>STR_CONFIG_SETTING_PLANE_BREAKDOWN_DAY_HELPTEXT :If vehicle breakdowns are enabled, this sets how long it takes for an aircraft to forcedly breakdown during the current flight, if it hasn't already. When set to disabled, the breakdown is not enforced. Also note that Plane Speed Factor is taken into account. A lower factor results in
20:44<samu> an earlier breakdown enforcement.
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20:44<samu>take care
20:45<samu>good or bad english? is it clear enough?
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---Logclosed Wed Mar 15 00:00:25 2017