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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-03-26

---Logopened Sun Mar 26 00:00:41 2017
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00:15<nekomaster>Bonjour
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02:09<nekomaster>hey andy
02:12<andythenorth>lo
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02:40<@Alberth>o/
02:41<nekomaster>hoi
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02:53-!-Progman is "Peter Henschel" on #openttdcoop.dev #openttdcoop #openttd
03:05<@peter1138>Hmm, is there a reason we still need 3 pathfinders?
03:06<Sacro>OCPF, one combining path finder
03:06<Sacro>(only works in darkenness)
03:07<@Alberth>only for trade-off between performance and perfection, probably
03:07<andythenorth>don’t we just need YAPF and the original?
03:08<@Alberth>something like that could work :)
03:08<@peter1138>Original is only there for ships.
03:09<@Alberth>although, I do want to implement JPS one day, at least for ships
03:09<@peter1138>Does NPF ever perform better than YAPF?
03:09*andythenorth should try NPF
03:09<andythenorth>maybe it lets RVs find depots
03:09<andythenorth>with YAPF, they can’t
03:09<andythenorth>but turning breakdowns off fixes that
03:10<@Alberth>I don't know how NPF and YAPF compare
03:10<@peter1138>andythenorth, eh? they do for me
03:11<andythenorth>:|
03:11*andythenorth never posts FS reports of bugs
03:11<andythenorth>because I always have a bunch of newgrfs that can’t be had from bananas
03:11<andythenorth>and I’ve blatantly been reloading them over and over again
03:18<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: i have in the back of my head that NPF is usually like 10 times slower than YAPF
03:18<Eddi|zuHause>because of all the virtualisation overhead
03:19<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: i guess it's kept because there is no real reason to remove it
03:21<@peter1138>virtualisation?
03:22<nekomaster>wouldn't removing NPF streamline some code though?
03:22<andythenorth>it would increase maintainability
03:23<Eddi|zuHause>virtual functions, i mean
03:23<@peter1138>NPF doesn't have any
03:24<Eddi|zuHause>afair it reimplements those, because it's written in C, not C++
03:24<Eddi|zuHause>but i never actually looked at it
03:25<Eddi|zuHause>YAPF was the first true C++ part of the code
03:25<@Alberth>nekomaster: hardly, there is a common interface to talk with the path-finder for all the other parts, so basically you throw away one case, reducing eg pathfinder settings from 3 cases to 2
03:26<@Alberth>true C++ *cough* *cough*
03:26<Eddi|zuHause>and before the entire project was moved to C++, the C part reimplemented lots of object-oriented patterns
03:26<@Alberth>I killed some of those :p
03:26<@Alberth>ie entire newgrf code :p
03:26<@peter1138>linked lists ahoy
03:27<@Alberth>ah, is death at current processors, isn't it?
03:27<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, that can't have been easy for optimisation purposes
03:28<@Alberth>would be interesting to find out whether all the template stuff is actually improving performance
03:29<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: even 10 years ago i was taught that you better implement lists as continuous array chunks, because of caching
03:29<@Alberth>:O nobody ever told me :p
03:29<@Alberth>I am too old, probably :p
03:30<andythenorth>bah
03:30<andythenorth>ottd hung
03:30<nekomaster>hmm
03:31<nekomaster>Would it ever be possible to have proper directional single tracks in openTTD?
03:31<@Alberth>how don't we have those now?
03:31<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: the point of all the templating was that you have all the flexibility of NPF available, but resolved at compile-time rather than run-time
03:32<Eddi|zuHause>which resulted in this factor 10-ish improvement
03:32<@Alberth>likely
03:33<Eddi|zuHause>back then, NPF was kept for comparison
03:33<@Alberth>but at the same time, you make c++ optimization impossible due to all the convoluted constructs
03:34<Eddi|zuHause>what do you mean?
03:34<@Alberth>you can up-cast to a derived class with a template, but I don't believe a c++ compiler can't recognize that case by itself
03:35<@Alberth>all optimization in a compiler is based on common code patterns, wrapping it all in templates breaks having common patterns, and thus optimization opportunity recognition
03:36<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not sure what you mean... all the template stuff should be resolved by the time optimization happens
03:37<@Alberth>if you have a virtual derived method, the compiler recongizes that, and eliminates it
03:37<@Alberth>diy at template-unfolding time means the compiler never recgonizes such a thing
03:38<@Alberth>ie the templates try to outsmart all compiler optimizations from the moment it was add until eternity
03:38<@Alberth>ie sort-of hard-coding the 'optimal' result
03:38<@Alberth>except the optimal result is unlikely to be optimal at any point in time
03:39<Eddi|zuHause>well, you could re-implement NPF with actual classes and stuff, and compare performance with YAPF again
03:39<andythenorth>if we delete it, does it get faster or slower? o_O
03:39<@Alberth>like I said, it would be an interesting experiment to see if the template stuff is actually working
03:40<Eddi|zuHause>probably neither
03:40<@Alberth>compiling the code gets a bit faster, but hardly noticable :p
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03:40<@Alberth>NPF is only a few small files
03:40<andythenorth>is a non-existent NPF infinitely fast or infinitely slow?
03:40<@peter1138>i was more thinking about maintainability
03:41<@peter1138>if you need a pf change right now, you need to do 2 or 3 times
03:41<andythenorth>fork it!
03:41<@Alberth>would it also kill some old src/core data containers?
03:42<@peter1138>doubt it, npf is pre all thawt
03:42<Eddi|zuHause>i think if we removed NPF, all the infrastructure for having multiple pathfinders will decay, and if we ever want to try a new pathfinder again, it would have to be redone
03:42<@peter1138>urgh, zbase never got fixed :(
03:42<@Alberth>we established NPF is slower?
03:43<@peter1138>nope
03:43<@Alberth>I have no problem throwing the slowest one out
03:43<@peter1138>it probably is, as that was largely the point of yapf
03:43<andythenorth>‘fork it’ https://youtu.be/K6R9fY8lfGo?t=69
03:44<Eddi|zuHause>it's easy to test... pick a huge coop game, and switch pathfinders
03:44<@Alberth>you need some ship tests too, imho
03:44<@Alberth>and perhaps RVs
03:44<Eddi|zuHause>there might be sublte behaviour differences because all the penalties are different, which might block a coop network
03:44<Eddi|zuHause>there is no NPF for ships
03:45<@Alberth>ok, that's a fast test then :p
03:45<@peter1138>there certainly is NPF for ships
03:46<Eddi|zuHause>since when?
03:46<andythenorth>it’s in the settings
03:47<andythenorth>so either the settings lie, or...
03:47<Eddi|zuHause>weird, i never noticed it there
03:47<@peter1138>git blame says 2005
03:48<@peter1138>ships also never had the original pathfinder removed
03:48<Eddi|zuHause>well, ok, then there is NPF for ships
03:48<Eddi|zuHause>yes, because both NPF and YAPF have problem with large fully-connected areas
03:49<Eddi|zuHause>the problem with original ship pathfinder is that it completely fails with rivers
03:49<Eddi|zuHause>and even in large open waters it may fail to recognize diagonal routes
03:50<@peter1138>doesn't it also have an element of chance?
03:50<Eddi|zuHause>dunno
03:50<@peter1138>with yapf ships always take the same route
03:50<@peter1138>with opf, they don't
03:56<andythenorth>15 slopes yak-shaved, 3 more to do \o/
03:56<@peter1138>hmm, in the arabic translation, some texts are missing their colour codes
03:59<nekomaster>i honestly dont know how some people can get motivated to draw so many sprites
04:00<@peter1138>hmm 5°C, that's a bit cold to get the legs out
04:01<andythenorth>nekomaster: mental strength :P
04:01<andythenorth>if you look at RH, it’s mostly copy-paste
04:01<nekomaster>I'm not fond of tedious work
04:03<nekomaster>coding isn't so bad because I can just recycle stuff and change a few settings
04:04<andythenorth>vehicles same
04:06<andythenorth>there are only about 5 trucks and 5 trams here http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/road-hog/push/LATEST/docs/html/road_vehicles.html
04:06<andythenorth>the rest is copy-paste
04:07<@Alberth>pixel-copying :)
04:08<andythenorth>if only I could automate it :P
04:08<@Alberth>get a few infinite amount of monkeys :p
04:09<andythenorth>you mean evolutionary procedural? o_O
04:09<andythenorth>then pick the best ones?
04:10<nekomaster>Well right now I'm planning on just reusing one model of truck for each class for all cargos
04:10<@Alberth>:O generate random combinations, and ask which to iterate in the next generation, hmm, tediously clicking I am afraid :p
04:10<andythenorth>Alberth: yeah, that’s why I didn’t :P
04:11<@Alberth>if you have good constraints on what "good" is, you could dramatically reduce the number of vehicles to select from
04:12<@Alberth>but it's non-trivial, to say the least :p
04:12<nekomaster>hmm
04:13<nekomaster>does anyone have any idea when Semi-Trailer Truck Doubles started becoming a thing?
04:14<andythenorth>nekomaster: IRL, 1930s-1950s
04:14<nekomaster>oh really?
04:14<andythenorth>well that’s when I found a picture of one in California
04:15<nekomaster>Ahh
04:15<andythenorth>but there is a difference betwen ‘something unusual that is worth a picture on the internet’
04:15<nekomaster>when I think of Doubles I think of your typical Semi-Tractor
04:15<andythenorth>and 'actual history’
04:15<nekomaster>I imagine that doubles as we know them today probably started becoming a big thing after the success of big powerful Semi-tractors in the 60's and 70's
04:18<andythenorth>nekomaster: you could spend a lot of time in Hank’s Truck Pictures ;)
04:19<andythenorth>http://www.hankstruckpictures.com/autocar.htm
04:20<nekomaster>looks like Western Express started doing doubles in 1958
04:20<nekomaster>:|
04:21<andythenorth>http://www.hankstruckpictures.com/john_jurkowski_trucks4.htm
04:21<andythenorth>https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/17/f5/91/17f591357815c89dc1dbc69b5024db78.jpg
04:22<nekomaster>At the moment Articulated Semi-Trucks don't start appearing on my lists until 1975, after they lifted the limit on length of semi-trucks
04:22<nekomaster>so by 1975 long nose trucks started becoming the norm
04:22<andythenorth>https://www.picclickimg.com/d/l400/pict/361772326845_/1950-AUTOCAR-DCU75-INLAND-EXPRESS-Massachusetts-Turnpike-DOUBLES.jpg
04:24<andythenorth>my advice: just use IRL to get rough ideas, then make it fit the game
04:25<andythenorth>if it helps, north america is a big continent, and the rules etc for trucks in Florida can be very different to those in BC
04:25<nekomaster>Well in 1975, the first Semi-turck appears
04:25<andythenorth>take what you need to make a good roster
04:25<nekomaster>and I think in 1980 the first doubles will appear
04:25<nekomaster>I'll just take some other Semi-tractors from each generation date, and make them fit
04:26<andythenorth>doubles are a massive jump in capacity, right?
04:26<andythenorth>maybe you should limit them to a turnpike NRT :P
04:26<nekomaster>Well some area's do allow doubles
04:27<nekomaster>I know they apepar here in Oshawa from time to time on major roads but they're usually coming off the highways and going to General motors or other industries in Oshawa
04:27<nekomaster>Like trucks going to and from the Concrete plant here
04:29<nekomaster>I think I might go with a 1980 GMC General for the first Double Semi-Tractor
04:31<nekomaster>I think I'll model the first Double semi-tractor after the Smokey and the Bandit 1980 GMC General
04:33<andythenorth>fair
04:34<nekomaster>Also I like how its got a big sleeper cab bolted on the back
05:03<andythenorth>28 slopes done :P 12 left to do
05:05<nekomaster>http://pastebin.com/gPP5ZSEx
05:05<nekomaster>trucks!
05:06<andythenorth>I get the names of forests, lakes, rivers, quarries and mines btw
05:06<andythenorth>mostly
05:06<nekomaster>Hmm?
05:07<andythenorth>for trucks
05:07<nekomaster>YOu talking about how you name Road Hog trucks?
05:07<andythenorth>of / from /s
05:07<andythenorth>yes
05:07<nekomaster>that might work out for North american stuff too
05:08<nekomaster>1975 Petrolia [SEMI TANKER]
05:08<nekomaster>2025 Kedron Triple
05:13<nekomaster>so now that I have some stuff laid out, I think I should get to work on the sprites
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05:34<Samu>hello
05:34<nekomaster>mm
05:34<nekomaster>time for for the painful tedious work of sprit work
05:36<Samu>hmm when the ship is going against the pier and wants to find a ship depot, it fails at finding it, it should not fail
05:36<Samu>pathfinder doesn't try reverse finding
05:36<Samu>how to fix?
05:44<@Alberth>ships don't turn around
05:46<@Alberth>likely, it should explore other feasible directions
05:48<andythenorth>‘paste from viewport’ is nuts :)
05:48*andythenorth wonders who uses it
05:48<andythenorth>maybe I should
05:49<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think the feature is that crazy... but i don't really use viewports
05:50<Eddi|zuHause>it's possibly a bit misnamed
05:50<andythenorth>I could make a section of map with ready-made stations on
05:50<andythenorth>and just paste them in
05:52<@Alberth>?
05:52<@Alberth>it just jumps to the VP location, afaik
05:53<Samu>when the ship leaves depot, it goes the wrong way now, it didn't use to be like this, or at least I don't recall it doing like this
05:53<Samu>need to test 1.7.0-RC1
05:53<Samu>picks the wrong exit
05:55<andythenorth>ha
05:55*andythenorth thought paste from viewport would paste infra
05:55<Samu>okay, the problem might be caused by me after all, gonna try fix it
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06:01<Samu>bool bDest = IsShipDepotTile(n.m_segment_last_tile) && GetShipDepotPart(n.m_segment_last_tile) == DEPOT_PART_NORTH;
06:01<Samu>ships only stop at the northest tile of a ship depot
06:02<Samu>i was letting them stop at either
06:02<Samu> :(
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06:05<@Alberth>andy, that would require the copy/paste patch :p
06:08<Samu>ships have to reverse at times
06:08<Samu>but the pathfinder says path not found, hmm
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06:09<Samu>once it reverses, path is found
06:09<Wolf01>o/
06:10<Samu>hi
06:10<@Alberth>o/
06:10<Samu>how do i make the pathfinder aware that it will eventually reverse the ship'
06:10<Samu>and thus, find a path
06:12<Wolf01>Eh
06:13<Wolf01>Is it me or webster didn't update the clock?
06:14*andythenorth bbl
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06:17<Samu>http://imgur.com/MLPpTNT
06:17<Wolf01>Samu, if you make the pathfinder ignore the ship direction? When stationally most ships can turn around in place, so once the pathfinder finds a path, the ship should automatically rotate
06:17<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: is it maybe set to UTC?
06:18<Samu>problem in picture
06:18<Samu>order 1 was skipped because ship is "lost", pathfinder doesn't find a path, but the ship would reverse anyway
06:18<Samu>and then it would find the path
06:19<Wolf01>Ships should avoid 90° turns only when moving
06:19<Wolf01>But I don't see why they can't turn 180° when stationary
06:19<Wolf01>Like trains at stations
06:21<@Alberth>imho, only as a last resort
06:23<Wolf01><Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: is it maybe set to UTC? <- yeah, time zones and DST always ruin my biorythm... I don't see why not to use UTC everywhere, you can have high noon even at 20:30, even now clocks aren't in sync with the sun anyway
06:23<Eddi|zuHause>i've seen ships get hopelessly lost after docking in a river, because they couldn't turn around
06:25<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: well, the general idea of DST is that the clock should move with sunrise (but changing the clock every day to adjust would be unwieldy)
06:25<Eddi|zuHause>it's rather unimportant for your biorhythm when noon is
06:25<Wolf01>Lets use roosters then
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06:37<Wolf01>Quak
06:38<frosch123>ciao
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06:52<Samu>what are tile hases for? I see this many times, but still not sure what they're doing
06:52<Samu>hashes
07:01<@Alberth>quick finding of a tile
07:02<@Alberth>if you have a million tiles randomly picked, and you need to know if a given tile is in that set, you don't want to check each of the million tiles
07:03<@Alberth>so you compute a mostly unique value for each tile, and save each of the million tiles according to its unique value
07:03<@Alberth>for a given tile that you need to find, compute also the unique value, and only checks the tiles stored on that value
07:05<@Alberth>for a good hash, the latter is a few tiles at most
07:05<@Alberth>so you save checking of about 999,998 other tiles or so
07:07<Samu>typedef CNodeList_HashTableT<CYapfShipNodeExitDir , 10, 12> CShipNodeListExitDir;
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07:39<Samu>m_max_search_nodes = 10000 is quite a low value
07:40<Samu>can't detect a ship depot a few tiles away on open sea
07:41<Samu>wish i could visualize what tiles it has worked on during search
07:41<Samu>how further 10000 can reach
08:07<Wolf01>Try caching all ship depots, order them by nearest and then try to pathfind towards the nearest one, if unreachable then try the next one
08:08<Samu>it's a hard setting that value m_max_search_nodes = 10000
08:09<Samu>user defined, actually, in config
08:09<Samu>but i never touched it
08:10<Samu>when invoking pathfinder, it would still only search up to 10000
08:10<Samu>nodes
08:11<Samu> if (!QueryNewTileTrackStatus()) return TryReverse();
08:11<Samu>querynewtiletrackstatus returns false
08:12<Samu>!false becomes true
08:12<Samu>tryreverse, wondering what happens
08:13<Samu>i see, TryReverse only reverses for non-tram road vehicles
08:13<Samu>i think i know where i got to fix
08:18<Samu>ships might be doing reversings unexpectedly, i wonder
08:18<Samu>nothing like testing and see what happens
08:21<Samu>problem solved!
08:21<Samu>yay, can't believe i'm doing well
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08:22<Samu>this has also solved the ship is lost message, it's no longer lost
08:22<Samu>yay
08:22<Samu>2 in 1 fix
08:24<Samu>must try some 90 degree forbidden stuff
08:24<Samu>don't wanna break it
08:27<Samu>ah i see, the ship is too smart now
08:27<Samu>this fix is creating unexpected reversals
08:28<Samu>Alberth: how do i make a OnlyReverseAsLastResort
08:32<Samu>http://imgur.com/x9KNfVo - ship turns left to go into terrain because it knows it can reverse :(
08:32<Samu>it should go straight because there's still water ahead
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08:58<Eddi|zuHause>https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/mickens/files/towashitallaway.pdf
09:00<@peter1138>Afternoon
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09:05<Wolf01>a Web page is now like
09:05<Wolf01>"V’Ger from the first “Star Trek” movie, a piece of technology
09:05<Wolf01>that we once understood but can no longer fathom" true... that's really true
09:06<Wolf01>WTF copying from PDF is always so shitty?
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09:31<Eddi|zuHause>PDF is only marginally better than CSS :p
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10:06<supermop_home>dont have univers on here anymore
10:07<supermop_home>also new ID seems not to have spell check
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10:13<Samu>who can help?
10:13<Samu>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/phoeeb6pa
10:14<Samu>problem i have is this: http://imgur.com/x9KNfVo
10:14<Samu>i added that to follow track
10:15<Samu>ship is turning left to reverse
10:15<Samu>instead, i want it to follow the water
10:16<Samu>Alberth: !! :(
10:17<Samu>i only want it to reverse if there really is no other alternative
10:19<@peter1138>hi
10:21<Samu>unsure how to do this
10:22<Samu>it needs to know if there are other exits
10:22<Samu>if there is, then don't reverse
10:22<Wolf01><Eddi|zuHause> PDF is only marginally better than CSS :p <- indeed, in PDF is the whole structure which is a pita
10:22<Samu>don't take this node
10:22<Samu>use the node which has an exit
10:23<Wolf01>"ship too smart now" XD
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10:24<@Alberth>try the reverse exit last
10:24<@Alberth>or give it a high penalty
10:26<Samu>reverse exit last? gonna see if such thing exists
10:30<Samu>CYapfOriginTileTwoWayT ?
10:33<@peter1138>Yeah, big penalty for reverse
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10:46<Samu>gotta see how's it done for rails, rails have it working best
10:55<Samu> bool ret = pfnFindNearestDepotTwoWay(v, origin.tile, origin.trackdir, last_tile, td_rev, max_penalty, YAPF_INFINITE_PENALTY, &fdd.tile, &fdd.reverse);
10:55<Samu>interesting
10:58<Samu>infinite penalty
10:58<Samu>nice way to solve things
11:05<Samu>pfnFindNearestDepotTwoWay isn't what I want
11:05<Samu>hmm
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11:08<Wolf01>Meow
11:09<Wolf01>https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/mickens/files/towashitallaway.pdf <- andythenorth please read
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11:24<andythenorth>such
11:25<Wolf01>Last time I've laughed so much it was when I read the same rants about Delphi and it's weird conversion of values to boolean
11:26<andythenorth>there’s a guy with a list of poor PHP design choices somewhere
11:27<andythenorth>it’s very lojng
11:27<Wolf01>Yeah, I bookmarked that
11:28<@peter1138>lol @ song lyrics : bedding taylor swift, every night in the oculus rift
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11:38<marrenarre>If I install OpenTTD via the system package manager on Debian, is it bad to install online content via OpenTTD’s package manager?
11:39<marrenarre>Especially since e.g. opengfx is installed by APT as a dependency.
11:40<frosch123>there is only a bare minimum in the package manager
11:40<supermop_home>hmm need to remember how to put stuff on my website
11:41<marrenarre>frosch123: Okay so no worries about any weird mixup? I’ll just go ahead and install stuff?
11:42<frosch123>the content download is only supposed to offer stuff that is compatible
11:42<@Alberth>since online content is done as normal user, it'll end in your $HOME, not in /usr/somewhere, where the packages stuff is
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11:53<@peter1138>marrenarre, it will not conflict :) openttd will not alter the system installed content, and will use the newest content when possible.
11:54<marrenarre>frosch123, peter1138: Okay, thank you!
11:55<marrenarre>Alberth also.
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12:02<Snail>peter1138: any chance we could raise the number of RailTypes in a game to 32?
12:02<@peter1138>I had a patch for that...
12:03<Snail>nice… where can I find it?
12:03<@peter1138>http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/rt32.diff
12:03<@peter1138>It's... old.
12:03<@peter1138>2013...
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12:04<@Rubidium>it's from this millenium, so it's not that old
12:04<@peter1138>I think there's a more recent one someone else did on the forums.
12:04<@peter1138>Rubidium, they all are! decade, on the other hand...
12:04<Snail>it would be nice itf it were put in trunk
12:05<@Rubidium>maybe we should...
12:05<@peter1138>Well it was a bit nasty, and might break stuff like NRT...
12:05<@Rubidium>... make a folder with ancient patches in ^/trunk ...
12:05<@peter1138>http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/ < start there :D
12:05<@Rubidium>... and then not provide or update them. We did put the patch in trunk, right?
12:06<@peter1138>http://fuzzle.org/o/ < don't forget this though.
12:06<@peter1138>http://fuzzle.org/o/dump/ < and this
12:06<@peter1138>ahhh the old opengl patch
12:07<@Rubidium>π <- there, all of my patches
12:07<@peter1138>pocketpc patch
12:07<@peter1138>i mean... what even is a pocket pc these days?
12:09<@Rubidium>given that pockets are growing in size as of late... I guess they're getting bigger
12:09<Snail>how many road types do we have with NRT?
12:09<@Rubidium>too
12:11<frosch123>Snail: 16 road + 16 tram
12:11<frosch123>so, essentially, 16 items in every dropdown
12:12<Snail>right… but considering that rails have additional levels of complexity (gauges, electrification types)
12:12<frosch123>Snail: why do you need more railtypes? do you want to vary them like new objects? or do you want to provide combinations of mixed properties?
12:12<Snail>we could have 32 for them
12:12<Snail>I need to provide combinations of rail types (light, heavy, highspeed…) with electrification systems
12:12<frosch123>18:12] <Snail> right… but considering that rails have additional levels of complexity (gauges, electrification types) <- that does not sound as if you have taken a look at the existing nrt grfs :p
12:13<frosch123>Snail: consider adding grf parameters
12:13<@peter1138>consider gameplay vs realism
12:13<frosch123>a dropdown with "a" "b", "a+b", "c", "a+c", "b+c", "a+b+c" just makes no sense
12:13<Snail>even with parameters, I’d need more than 16 in a game… especially if the game spans from 1840 to today
12:15<@Rubidium>oh yes... we definitely need 4 feet 8.5 inches and 1435 mm gauges ;)
12:15<Snail>frosch123: it does make sense. A player would need to choose between “catenary”, “third rail”, “third rail + catenary” across different track types (2 gauges, 3 axle weights, different speeds)
12:15<Snail>Rubidium: no, but we can’t put 1435 and 1000mm on the same track :p
12:15<frosch123>Snail: no, it makes no sense, because there is no train grf which would use all those combinations
12:15<Snail>frosch123: there will be
12:16<Snail>so it does make sense
12:16<Snail>frosch123: it’s like the chicken and the egg. There are no train grf’s like that, because the rail types don’t allow. It’s not a valid argument to not expand rail types
12:17<frosch123>it's a first world problem, you cannot have everything
12:17<@Alberth>having 32 different train types that cannot use each other rail, is nuts
12:17<Snail>Alberth: there will of course be compatibilities
12:18<@Alberth>why have different railtypes if they can both use 1?
12:18<@peter1138>does NUTS have rail types?
12:18<Snail>trains with both 3rd rail and catenary would be able to use “3rd rail”, “catenary” and “3rd-rail + catenary” types
12:18<@Alberth>peter1138: yes
12:19<@Alberth>Snail: people will simply build the most common railtype
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12:19<@Rubidium>super high speed, super heavy 3rd rail catenary... aka "universal rail"
12:20<@peter1138>and complain that autoreplace doesn't work
12:20<Snail>Alberth: but they would evolve with time, and with their needs
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12:20<@Alberth>200 year game play, 32 railtypes, 6 years for a new railtype?
12:20<Snail>say, if the best vehicle for climbing a mountain is a 3rd-rail engine, they would build that track, or a “3rd rail + catenary” track to allow for more compatibilities
12:20<@Alberth>models life longer
12:21<@Alberth>*live
12:21<Snail>Alberth: not necessarily, because different railtypes would be available at the same time. Users would choose the best depending on cost and their capabilities
12:21<@Alberth>cost is a non-issue
12:22<@Alberth>you'll end up with 3/4 of the track types unused, so why have them in the first place?
12:23<@Alberth>condense choices, and give player a reasonable amount of useful alternatives
12:24<Snail>this is a way to avoid the problem rather than dealing with it
12:24<Snail>I’d need to force my players to buy a heavier track if they need 3rd rail… even if they only use light vehicles
12:25<@Alberth>most players don't care about such details, imho
12:25<@Alberth>unless you have trains as a hobby or prefosseion
12:25<Snail>they’d have to pay more for a track that’s heavier and has a higher topspeed than they actually need… because we don’t want to increase the number of rail types
12:27<@Alberth>any number is insufficient, by definition
12:27<Snail>so why not going back to 2 :p
12:27<@Alberth>fine by me
12:27<@Alberth>I could even play with 1
12:28<@peter1138>well we had 3 originally...
12:28<Snail>right, so we play in a different way. My point is, I don’t want to force anyone to use lots of railtypes if they don’t want to
12:28<Snail>I’m just suggesting the possibility of using more than 16 for those who need to/want to
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12:31<@Alberth>reality is broken, don't need to replicate it in openttd, imho
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12:31<@Rubidium>but if you want to go so far into the nitty gritty of things, then railtypes are basically bad. You need something to configure the perfect railtype for your particular situation
12:31<@peter1138>+return (RailType)(GB(_m[t].m3, 0, 4) | (GB(_m[t].m1, 7, 1) << 4));
12:31<@peter1138>^ that was the nasty bit about the patch :p
12:32<@Rubidium>So you don't have 32 railtypes, no you have dozens of gauges, dozens of voltages, dozens of weights, dozens of forms, dozens of types of steel and so on to choose from
12:34<@Alberth>use a railway simulator to simulate a railway
12:34<@peter1138>This is :D
12:34<Snail>that’s like putting to an extreme. I’d be fine to have a combination of 2 / 3 gauges, max weight, max speed, and electrification type to choose from
12:34<@Alberth>it's not, it's a transport game
12:34<Snail>a bit like locomotion when electrification was an overlay to a track
12:34<Snail>but it’s not possible in OTTD to allowing for more railtypes would be a way to get the same effect
12:35<@Rubidium>because for reality, I really need NP46, UIC54E1, UIC54E3, UIC54E5 and UIC60
12:35<@peter1138>don't forget uk loading gauge!
12:36<@Rubidium>and 1500 VDC <2500 A, 1500 VDC 2500-4000 A, VDC > 4000 A, 3000 VDC, 15kV AC, 25 kV AC
12:36<@peter1138>bah
12:36<@peter1138>just add a byte to the map array
12:36<@peter1138>256 rail types
12:36<@Alberth>only 8 properties :p
12:37<@Alberth>less if you have more values for a property than 2 :p
12:37<@Rubidium>and not to mention the safety systems that might be available (which is, ofcourse, a bitmask): ATB EG, ATB NG, ATB VV, ERTMS level 1, ERTMS level 2, ERTMS level 3, ERTMS level 3 hybrid, PZB, LZB, ...
12:37<Snail>ok, so let’s put everything on 1 railtype
12:38<@Rubidium>oh, and the type of sleepers ofcourse... concrete, wooden, composite
12:38<Snail>monorail, maglev, electrified…
12:38<Snail>but why not road vehicles and trams too
12:38<Snail>all in 1
12:38<@Rubidium>heh... by I haven't started on the hardnesses/brands of rail yet...
12:39<Snail>even cable cars… and airplane runways too… who needs different roads/rails anyway
12:41<@Rubidium>there are at least 14 "qualities" of rail and at least 44 "brands" of rail that we need to model properly
12:41<@Rubidium>can we ever be realistic for a huge country like the Netherlands
12:42<@peter1138>ok we can use 4 bits of m6
12:42<@Alberth>:O that many? lots of old tracks I guess
12:43<Snail>Rubidium: if we took things to an extreme, we could talk about either 1 type for all, or thousands of types. My point is just to have the possibility to expand current things a bit
12:43<@Rubidium>but where it too much?
12:44<@Rubidium>s/it/is/
12:45<@Rubidium>and we already expanded it two bits
12:46<@peter1138>actually it was always 4 bits
12:47<frosch123>peter1138: we need a dropdown with a text filter :p
12:47<Snail>one could argue that 16 tram tracks are also “too much”… after all there is less variation for trams than there is for trains… but that was done
12:48<@Alberth>Snail: it's like the map size. I have yet to see a usefully filled map at 1024x1024, yet people wanted 2048x2048. Later, people wanted 4096x4096. Patchpacks still have 8192x8192, it is never enough, even though all those maps are just more empty space
12:48<@Alberth>yet I still haven't seen anyone filling a map of 1024x1024
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12:50<@peter1138>ps, why the game run so slow?
12:50<@peter1138>make it use all cores!
12:54<@Alberth>gpu doesn't work either
12:56<@peter1138>michi_cc has a patch for that!
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13:14<andythenorth>Snail: why weight, specifically?
13:15<andythenorth>also do you have speed limits?
13:32<Snail>andythenorth: yes
13:32<Snail>I have both axle weight limits and speed limits
13:33<Snail>axle weight limits are important in the early years, when you can run light rolling stock on lighter rails (cheaper)
13:33<Snail>and before using the large steamers of the late XIX century, you need to upgrade your rails
13:34<Snail>having more railtypes allows to use early electric rolling stock, without having to buy heavier tracks
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27830 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2017-03-26 19:45:37 +0200 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from Eints:
13:45<@DorpsGek>catalan: 6 changes by juanjo
13:45<@DorpsGek>italian: 1 change by lorenzodv
13:45<@DorpsGek>russian: 6 changes by Lone_Wolf
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14:07*andythenorth finds constraints useful
14:08*peter1138 ties up andythenorth
14:08<@peter1138>Wait that sounds a bit too kinky.
14:08<andythenorth>can you unsay that?
14:08<andythenorth>thanks
14:09<V453000>omg you guys tying each other?
14:09<V453000>shit got real
14:09<andythenorth>is V453000
14:10<andythenorth>look everyone
14:10<V453000>is
14:10<andythenorth>such BRIX
14:11<V453000>yeah no
14:11<V453000>factorio 300% atm
14:11<Supercheese>more like such railtankers
14:11<Supercheese>very higres
14:11<V453000>but big time python mayhem
14:11<Supercheese>much biter
14:11<V453000>doing some pretty mad shit with python blender :) all of my rendering is now handled by python scripts now
14:12<andythenorth>lawks
14:12<andythenorth>saves pressing the buttons though
14:12<andythenorth>also proof that python is dangerous
14:12<andythenorth>anyone can use it :P
14:12<V453000>it's not just about that, with blender you can do "some" degree of automation, but this is so much more flexible
14:13<Supercheese>and it's Factorio
14:13<Supercheese>so automate everything
14:13<andythenorth>factorio should have a script API
14:13<V453000>for example, ever since I started using Blender I always wanted a feature which would allow me to override all materials EXCEPT some in a render pass ... blender only allows to override everything, which has stupidly many cases when it completely breaks
14:13<andythenorth>in and out
14:13<V453000>andythenorth: some guy already wrote fbasic, he controls the factory with it
14:13<frosch123>sounds like we will see yaks in factorio before we see slugs
14:13<V453000>he made a self-replicating base that plays itself
14:13<andythenorth>the real factory?
14:14*andythenorth considers F as general-purpose automation software
14:14<V453000>XD
14:14<andythenorth>could have a real furnace somewhere
14:14<andythenorth>super pro edition
14:16<V453000>but yeah, stuff's fun
14:16<V453000>also what is it with yaks? :D
14:16<frosch123>they produce a lot of wool
14:17<frosch123>which is an ingredient to firs or something
14:18<andythenorth>FIRS Tibet economy
14:18<andythenorth>yak farm: butter, wool
14:18<andythenorth>windchime factory
14:32<andythenorth>so in Photoshop CC 2017, the paint bucket has anti-alias on permanently
14:32<andythenorth>NFI what Adobe think they’re doing
14:32<andythenorth>this seems like the worst photoshop ever
14:33<supermop_home>andythenorth well I will be sticking with 2016 then
14:33<frosch123>isn't there some checkbox to uncheck somewhere?
14:34<andythenorth>it’s permanently checked and greyed out
14:34<andythenorth>I have to switch to RGB mode, uncheck it, and switch back to indexed
14:35<supermop_home>that sounds even worse than if they had even removed the option to uncheck
14:35<frosch123>ah, yeah, you are probably their only indexed user
14:35<supermop_home>if they make you jump through a hoop
14:35<supermop_home>me too
14:35<supermop_home>but I'm not on 2017
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14:59<@peter1138>if x is constant
15:00<@peter1138>does "+ 1 - x" get nicely thrown away?
15:04<supermop_home>now iD has frozen up while trying to print a pdf
15:05<@Alberth> + (1 - x) I would expect to be surely being computed at compile time
15:05<@peter1138>Yeah
15:05<@Alberth>but, if you want to win the war by merging constants, you have basically already lost :p
15:06<frosch123>where is lordaro to talk about constexpr? :p
15:06<@Alberth>but it likely does common sub-expression elimination etc, so likely it computes something completely different than you think :p
15:07<@DorpsGek>Commit by peter1138 :: r27831 trunk/src/widget.cpp (2017-03-26 21:07:08 +0200 )
15:07<@DorpsGek>-Fix (r24577): Misaligned resize icon (due to widget bounds being inclusive)
15:07<LordAro>frosch123: sup
15:08<@peter1138>Hmm
15:09<@peter1138>Damn it
15:09<@peter1138>Thought I'd messed up. I was running the wrong copy :po
15:09<@peter1138>-o
15:10<@Alberth>phew :)
15:10<@peter1138>It would've been a "you had one job" moment...
15:10<@peter1138>(but yeah, most of the time left = 10, right = 20 ... 10 pixels... not in ottd land! that's 11 pixels...
15:10<@peter1138>)
15:12<@peter1138>I also spent too long verifying that I wasn't imagining it was different.
15:12<@peter1138>Turns out original TTD doesn't even have them.
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15:26<@Alberth>yep, left and right are messy inclusive
15:26<@Alberth>I killed a lot of that in the gui rewrite :p
15:30<@peter1138>It simplifies some things. But it's unusual.
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15:49<@peter1138>Hmm
15:49<@peter1138>Width 65 x 22... results in the widget being about double the height it should be
15:49<@peter1138>(didn't actually measure it)
15:49<@peter1138>Width 0 x22
15:49<@peter1138>works
15:49<@peter1138>er
15:49<@peter1138>s/width/size/
15:53<@Alberth>0 wide or 0 high widgets are used a lot :)
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15:54<@peter1138>it's just a minimum size
15:54<@Alberth>ah, ok
15:54<@peter1138>i don't see why, if the width is set correctly (and is narrower than the widget ends up being) it makes the widget taller
15:56<@Alberth>weird, width and height aren't related, except in some special widgets, afaik
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15:59<@peter1138>Oh, I found it...
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16:08<@peter1138>http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/fakecaption1.diff
16:08<@peter1138>or
16:08<@peter1138>http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/fakecaption2.diff
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16:29*andythenorth makes better vineyard
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16:34<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8394/vineyard.png
16:34<andythenorth>is just base set sprites
16:34<andythenorth>not too far from https://sites.create-cdn.net/siteimages/40/9/8/409824/11/5/5/11552532/1732x1082.jpg?1456180223
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16:42<Eddi|zuHause>the building is too tall
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16:45<andythenorth>the building is ugh
16:46<andythenorth>also bedtime
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18:25<Eddi|zuHause>https://www1.wdr.de/kinder/tv/die-sendung-mit-der-maus/video-vorspann-maus-klingonisch-100.html
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19:13<Samu>i'm invoking pathfinder twice :( https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pxmwekzc2
19:14<Samu> typedef CYapfOriginTileT<Types> PfOrigin; // origin provider
19:14<@peter1138>shocking
19:15<Samu>i would have to use CYapfOriginTileTwoWayT, but that would require changing a ton of code
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19:16<nekomaster>blargh
19:17<Samu>besides, water tracks don't have signals
19:17<Samu>i'd need a slightly different version of CYapfOriginTileTwoWayT
19:18<Samu>and i'm still unsure how to interpret this code
19:18<Samu>i'm surprised I made it this far
19:19<@peter1138>to be h onest
19:19<@peter1138>nobody really understands the yapf code
19:19<@peter1138>not even the author
19:19<Samu>orly
19:19<@peter1138>i mean, notice how the code style is totally different to the rest... :p
19:19<@peter1138>nobody dare touch it
19:20<Samu>i see tons of template class, consts and whatever
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19:21<Samu>don't really know how it builds up nicely with each other
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19:24<Wolf01>Man... I've just finished to set a custom highlight for locomotive basic
19:24<@peter1138>Hmm, just noticed the intro game in TTD is muted
19:25<Samu>oops, i made the wrong copy paste
19:25<Wolf01>Notepad++ is not really the right tool for custom highlights, I had to do some compromises
19:25<Samu>this is what I wanted to paste https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pubn57tm0
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19:26<Samu>line 79 and 80 is invoking the pathfinder twice
19:26<Samu>ideally, i should invoke only 1 pathfinder, which accents 2 origins
19:27<Samu>it wouldn't be repeating some nodes
19:27<Samu>which accepts* 2 origins typo
19:28<Samu>path_found1 is the path that is found on the direction the ship is heading to, path_found2 is the path found starting on the opposite ship direction
19:29<Samu>sometimes pf1 doesn't find a path, but on the reversed direction it does
19:30<Samu>i retrieve the ship depot tile that it finds on pf2, but still let the ship take pf1 path, to maintain expected behaviour
19:30<Wolf01>280 i$=UPPER$(INKEY$):IF i$<>"Y" AND i$<>"N" THEN 280 <- maybe I'm tired
19:30<Samu>ship doesn't smart up
19:30<Samu>and i still get a depot found
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19:32<Samu>the correct way to do this would be however with 1 pathfinder, 2 origins, not 2 pathfinders, each with 1 origin
19:32<Samu>halp
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19:33<+glx><Wolf01> Man... I've just finished to set a custom highlight for locomotive basic <-- the amstrad cpc one ?
19:33<Wolf01>Exactly
19:34<+glx>hmm missing GOTO on your 280 line I think :)
19:34<Wolf01>Implicit
19:34<Wolf01>It's the condition I can't understand
19:35<+glx>it wants "Y" or "N"
19:35<Wolf01>Yes, but it can't be both
19:35<+glx>if not it restarts input
19:36<+glx>!Y and !N is Y OR N
19:36<+glx>well !(Y OR N)
19:36<Wolf01>Then I'm tired
19:36<Wolf01>And the Pirate DeMorgan will come to pull my feets this night
19:37<+glx>but yes basic DeMorgan stuff :)
19:37<Wolf01>*-s
19:38<Wolf01>I don't know why but I've seen <> as ==
19:39<+glx>== is = in conditions
19:39<+glx>(not the best idea at that time)
19:39<Wolf01>Yeah, it doesn't even exists == in loco basic
19:41<+glx>but using only <,> and = to write conditions probably simplified the parsing
19:43<Wolf01>BTW, code is unreadable... it seem javascript with inline closures... full of subroutines mixed in the main loop
19:43<+glx>size optimisation for a big program ?
19:43<Wolf01>Nah, a 300 lines game
19:44<Wolf01>I'm trying to fix the ocr errors
19:45<+glx>anyway basic is easily unreadable when you start to do some complex stuff
19:45<Wolf01>Spaghetti code
19:45<Wolf01>At its finest
19:45<+glx>I remember the fun it was to enter lines of data :)
19:46<Wolf01>Eh, I just passed one of the symbol definitions, and I have 2 pages of data at the end
19:47<+glx>usually data lines contained z80 asm stuff, but can also be music or graphics
19:47<@peter1138>urgh... screen burn
19:48<Wolf01>820 CLS:LOCATE 1,3:IN~ 6,0 <- here is one error... INK became IN~
19:51<Wolf01>1090 x=INT(RND*(maxx-minx+1»+minx <- yes, like I won't spot this one
19:52<+glx>mode 0 game I guess
19:52<Wolf01>Yeah
19:53<@peter1138>BBC BASIC or get out
19:53<Wolf01>Oh dear... FOR ;=1 TO objr... all "i" became ";"
19:55<+glx>I hope "j" detection was better
19:55<Wolf01>That seem ok
19:55<+glx>else good luck with the usual imbricated i and j loops :)
19:56<Samu>max_search_nodes of 10000 is quite low :(
19:56<Samu>at least for ships
19:56<+glx>that's why buoys are recommended for ships
19:56<Samu>on open sea that's like 15 tiles away max radius
19:58<Samu>but when searching for nearest depot, i don't have buoys
19:58<Samu>it's the pathfinder that is looking for it
20:00<Samu>@calc 828 - 802 + 158 - 146
20:00<@DorpsGek>Samu: 38
20:00<Samu>well, 38 tiles away then
20:02<Samu>perhaps i could try a mix of 2 different searches
20:02<Samu>first, it tries to Find the closest reachable ship depot
20:03<Samu>if it does not find it, then resort to using the original search, based on distance manhattan
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20:05<Samu>would be less cpu intensive in case the ship needs servicing and doesn't find any
20:05<@peter1138>Just make them sink.
20:05<Samu>:)
20:06<Samu>38 is quite short, hmm let me see what the max distance was on the original
20:07<@peter1138>dosbox to the rescue
20:09<Samu>maximum_go_to_depot_penalty / YAPF_TILE_LENGTH
20:09<Samu>YAPF_TILE_LENGTH is 100
20:09<Samu>maximum_go_to_depot_penalty is something i can find on config file
20:10<Samu>2000
20:10<Samu>@calc 2000 / 100
20:10<@DorpsGek>Samu: 20
20:10<Samu>orly?
20:10<Samu>well then 38 is higher
20:10<Samu>keks
20:10<Samu>screw it
20:13<Samu>i still need a fallback to the old find method when I manually click the button to send a ship to depot
20:13<Samu>i don't like the "cannot find local depot" error message
20:13<Samu>either this, or increase max node search thingy
20:14<Samu>but I don't know how to increase that
20:15<supermop_home>need a cheap peaty scotch for cocktails
20:16<supermop_home>ardbeg is way too $ here now
20:16<Wolf01>Ok, I seem to have fixed all the errors... today I might try to get it to the emulator
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20:34<Wolf01>'night
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21:37<nekomaster>damn
21:37<nekomaster>Making sprites takes me way too long
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---Logclosed Mon Mar 27 00:00:42 2017