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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-03-28

---Logopened Tue Mar 28 00:00:43 2017
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02:23<__ln__>that's correct
02:25<@peter1138>You are welcome to this advanced knowledge I offer you.
02:58<@peter1138>Alright, oil rigs work again...
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05:11<@peter1138>hmm, it's looking messier :S
05:11<@peter1138>and i've not even got around to ensure docking points are cleared/set when appropriate
05:12<@peter1138>and it crashes :D
05:22<Wolf01>If it hurts then it's working :D
05:23<Wolf01>At least it's what my gym instructor said :P
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05:32<Wolf01> NRT thingie?
05:33<@peter1138>is my cycling not working? cos that doesn't hurt
05:34<Wolf01>Then you should do moar!
05:34<@peter1138>hmm maybe i need to push harder
05:35<@peter1138>£550 for a power meter :(
05:37<Wolf01>BTW, you don't need to push too much cycling and running, they are long term workouts, you don't need to build up an insane amount of muscle :P
05:39<@peter1138>i don't do running
05:39<@peter1138>that just kills me outright
05:40<@peter1138>much harder than cycling
05:44<Wolf01>Lol, their site isn' even working
05:44<Wolf01>+t somewhere
05:44<__ln__>they probably got slashdotted
05:46<Wolf01>I hope it will run OTTD :P
05:46<Wolf01>If it's not an early april fool
05:48<__ln__>if it's not, then of course getting OTTD to run on it will be the priority
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06:57<Wolf01>Stupid software causing connection abort
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07:03<@peter1138>Wolf01, could be worse, say, like a web-irc client.
07:04<Wolf01>In fact, I was aiming at installing the telegram app just to have it off the browser... I'm starting to hate web-apps
07:07<Samu>my cat on keyboard
07:07<Wolf01>And it managed to write exatly one line of nothing?
07:08<Samu>it pressed space bar
07:08<Wolf01>mIRC doesn't even send the message if composed only by spaces
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08:01<Wolf01> foookin' realism
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08:04<andythenorth>do trains stop if not enough power?
08:04<andythenorth>[most boring idea ever]
08:04<Wolf01>Just eyecandy
08:04<andythenorth>why are power stations ‘needed’ for electric trains [according to forums]
08:04<andythenorth>but coal, diesel etc aren’t needed for other trains
08:05<andythenorth>because players
08:05<Samu>electrified trains stop if the rail is downgraded from electrified to normal
08:05<Wolf01>You should stockpile fuel to run your business, but to stockpile fuel you must set up a business first which need fuel to get fuel
08:06<Wolf01>Or just let your vehicles run on money
08:06<Wolf01>Vehicles should stop when you can't pay for their running costs
08:07<andythenorth>such vehiclesa
08:07<@peter1138>why was i doing multidocks? what was the point? :p
08:08<andythenorth>more fun
08:08<Wolf01>Making andy happy?
08:08<andythenorth>nobbles ships a bit
08:08<andythenorth>but also stations on opposite sides of peninsula etc
08:09<@peter1138>multidocks itself doesn't
08:09<@peter1138>i've not done anything like dock reservation
08:11<Wolf01>Mmmh, I think I should try to bring back my demoscene fetish
08:11<Wolf01>The CPC emulator is calling
08:11<Wolf01>Must... resist
08:11<Samu> hmm it was closed :(
08:12<Wolf01>And this time I even have a color screen... no more guessing colors in a green phosphorous monitor
08:13<@peter1138>red is green
08:13<Wolf01>Blue is green too
08:13<Wolf01>Even white is green
08:13<@peter1138>i had an rgb monitor with a green/amber/rgb switch on it once
08:14<@peter1138>green was ok
08:14<@peter1138>but amber just turned off the blue
08:14<@peter1138>so, er... red and green still showed up
08:15*peter1138 whips out Cool Retro Term
08:16<Wolf01>I should also recover the real CPC from grandma house before it gets to the trash bin
08:17<Wolf01>Maybe I should also try to recover a disk drive and a system disk... I never had one :(
08:17<@peter1138>I've got one in a box somewhere. No PSU for it.
08:19<Wolf01>Mine is integrated in the monitor... so if it blows up I'm tfu
08:21<Wolf01>Eh, good old times... The best part of plain old basic is that you have to design your code too, in order to not get lost in the spaghetti code
08:21<Samu>i wish i could see on screen the pathfinder working
08:21<Samu>see which tiles it has searched
08:21<Wolf01>Samu, you can
08:21<Wolf01>Look how pbs do it
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09:01<andythenorth>vineyard such
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09:05<Wolf01> should benefit from this ;)
09:13<Samu>@calc 162-96+228-194
09:13<@DorpsGek>Samu: 100
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09:52<Samu>peter1138: yesterday you talked about PBS based for ships, where can that help?
09:52<Samu>it caches the path?
09:52<Samu>reserved tracks for ships?
09:53<@peter1138>something like not needing to pathfind every tile
09:54<@peter1138>but it changes ship behaviour massively
09:54<@peter1138>(they'd separate)
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09:54<Samu>has it been tested?
09:55<Samu>when it detects a ship in the way, just ignore the ship
09:56<@peter1138>it hasn't been written
09:56<Samu>not needing to pathfind every tile would be a great achievement indeed
09:57<Samu>trains don't do it every tile, only in "blocks"
09:58<@peter1138>trains don't have junctions every tile
09:58<@peter1138>usually :D
09:58<@peter1138>and they can follow a reserved path through a set of junctions instead of pathfinding again at every one
09:59<@peter1138>(but hey, somebody said pbs signals were evil at some point)
10:02<Samu>why's that?
10:04<@peter1138>some people say they are slow
10:04<@peter1138>i don't know if they mean performance wise, or if they mean that train flow is slower
10:13<Samu>i'm preparing a savegame on a 64x64 map with rail tracks in every direction on all tiles, will see how good/bad pbs is
10:13<Samu>takes tile editing the map :
10:21<@peter1138>maybe it reevaluates the path at every junction or something
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10:26<UncleCJ>Hehe, I found you! :-) I introduced OpenTTD to the girlfriend this weekend - she loves time management games and OpenTTD has been my guilty pleasure for a long time. Suffice to say we've had a great weekend ;-)
10:27<UncleCJ>I'll find the Discord I saw as well
10:28<Samu>ok, pbs is bad
10:28<Samu>it did not find a path
10:28<Samu>train is going into weird places
10:28<Samu>and not finding the correct direction
10:28<Samu>max_search_nodes have to be increased apparently
10:29<Samu>let me test
10:30<Samu>needed to search 44013 nodes to find a path for pbs
10:30<Samu>but then again,it only needed to search for it once
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10:37<Samu>PBS can actually fail in a real game
10:38<Wolf01><peter1138> i don't know if they mean performance wise, or if they mean that train flow is slower <- people tend to explain how it works without even knowing the theory, specially if those people don't even know anything regarding IT
10:38<Samu>the chances for it to happen are likely low
10:38<Wolf01>So if they see that the train network is "slow" because of reservations blocking trains to enter in a certain block, then for them is really computationally slow
10:39<Samu>it's not about that
10:40<Samu>the limit is the max_search_nodes
10:40<Samu>if pbs doesn't find a path within this limit
10:40<Samu>train goes into stupid places
10:41<Wolf01>Samu, it's like "can I cross play multiplayer between linux and windows?" "no you can't they are totally different versions, are developed for 2 different OSes"
10:41<Wolf01>If one tells me that irl, the first response is a punch in the nose
10:46<Arveen2>one punch KO
10:46<Arveen2>windows is like a simulation game while the linux one is a first person shooter
10:56<Samu>darn, can't upload to imgur now
10:56<Samu>what's wrong with it
10:57<Samu>whatever, this works
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10:58<Samu>train is lost, the reserved path makes no sense, it is supposed to go to the bottom corner
10:58<Wolf01>Samu, that's a solvable problem
10:59<Samu>yes, increase max_searchnodes to about 45k
10:59<Samu>no? yes
10:59<Samu>i tested
11:01<Samu>dbg: [yapf] [YAPFt]! 1- 25298 us - 10001 rounds - 1352 open - 10000 closed - CHR 0.0% - C -1 D -1 - c0(sc0, ts0, o0) --
11:01<Samu>10000 is the default max_search_nodes
11:02<Wolf01>Don't even try to fix it by changing the numbers, there is always a limit that is too low related to what you need to achieve
11:02<Wolf01>Change the way it works
11:02<Wolf01>The pbs regions idea might be a good way
11:02<Samu>dbg: [yapf] [YAPFt]- 1- 171964 us - 44013 rounds - 488 open - 44012 closed - CHR 0.0% - C 20578 D 0 - c0(sc0, ts0, o0) --
11:03<Samu>it needed 44012
11:03<Samu>now it's heading the right direction
11:03<Wolf01>Because it isn't the right thing to do
11:03<Wolf01>It's like "n
11:03<Wolf01>I need to go to new york, but google suggest me to swim on the atlantic ocean"
11:04<Wolf01>A wise person suggests you to take a ship
11:05<Wolf01>But you are focusing on how many food you need to bring with you to swim to new york
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11:06<@Alberth>hi hi!
11:08<Wolf01>Samu, you often use absurd things to prove your thoughts, ok, proving things with absurd is a viable way, but working with absurd is not, it's only useful to show the.. absurd limits of the algorythm
11:11<Samu>i think PBS could be used for ships
11:12<Samu>but it needs a bigger limit than that
11:12<Samu>than 10000
11:12<Samu>reserve a path
11:12<Samu>once per trip
11:13<Samu>instead of pathfinding every time it changes tiles
11:13<Wolf01>Doesn't need to reserve a path through the whole map, you'll make other ships go nuts cutting all their possibility to move
11:14<Samu>i would let ships cross other ships
11:14<Samu>if i could do this
11:14<Wolf01>Then you are missing the point
11:14<@Alberth>just cache the path then
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11:15<Samu>maybe it's not pbs i'm talking about? then it's the reserved path
11:15<Samu>i dunno, i used a path based signal to force train to pathfind only once
11:16<@Alberth>not sure if it actually does that
11:16<@Alberth>likely it does check if the path still exists
11:16<Wolf01>If you cache the path, then you terraform a sea tile, the path might be recalculated, but other ships have their path too, and you will need to recalculate everything, game freeze for 2 seconds
11:18<Wolf01>Shower time
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11:21<@Alberth>how can that be worse than it does now?
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11:26<nekomaster>Hello :)
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11:33<@Alberth>hi hi
11:33<nekomaster>Hey Alberth
11:33<@Alberth>how does "king of the road" sound for your RV set?
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11:36<@Alberth>or "king of the US highway", although that has a bit of water association :)
11:40<@peter1138>15:28 < Samu> ok, pbs is bad
11:40<@peter1138>15:28 < Samu> it did not find a path
11:40<@peter1138>Samu, PBS does not find paths
11:40<@peter1138>if you're exceeding a pathfinder limit, that'll happen regardless of pathsignals
11:41<nekomaster>I was thinking of something interesting as a name, but I'd rather have something more fancy for a realistic North american set which I do plan to make once I'm finished with GARVS
11:41<nekomaster>I also would like a name for my projects to have a cool sounding acryonym
11:41<nekomaster>I wish I was as good as andy when it comes to making cool or interesting project names
11:42<nekomaster>I do still like my cheeky name for for that 2cc Metro/Subway version I made (2cc Rapid Transit for me! or 2ccRTFM)
11:43<nekomaster>I'll always remember it as 2cc READ THE F**KING MANUAL
11:43<@Alberth>2cc is the least interesting feature, I think :)
11:44<nekomaster>Though it does put it up near the top of the GRF List on the online content downloader
11:44<@Alberth>and it's becoming your trade-mark :)
11:44<nekomaster>But its not mine
11:45<nekomaster>that belongs to the 2cc set (trams, trains, and buses)
11:45<@Alberth>fair enough
11:45<nekomaster>I just wanted to have some cheeky names for my Metro and Wagon Only conversions
11:45<nekomaster>that also let people know they're made from the 2cc trains
11:45<@Alberth>andy can help :)
11:46<nekomaster>BEST OF AMERICA
11:46<nekomaster>Maybe that should be used for a realistic set
11:46<nekomaster>BOA - Best of America
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11:46<andythenorth>ach these sprites suck
11:46<nekomaster>Hey, speaking of the devil
11:46*andythenorth needs to redraw
11:47<nekomaster>be glad your sprites are 100 times better then mine
11:47<nekomaster>but at least I'm slowly tackling these busses
11:50<@Alberth>buildings are perhaps easier than buses and trucks
11:50<nekomaster>I tried houses before, I think its more difficult to make good looking houses and buildings
11:50<nekomaster>I did once want to make a Canadian buiding set
11:51<@Alberth>oh, why is that difficult?
11:51<@Alberth>all the scales must match or so?
11:51<nekomaster>enh, I dunno, I havent tried it in years
11:51<nekomaster>I think last time I tried drawing buildings was 2008-2009
11:56<andythenorth>buildings are way easier than RVs or steam trains
11:56<andythenorth>or anything asymmetric
11:56<nekomaster>I hope I never have to draw a steam engine
11:56<andythenorth>symmetrical train vehicles are pretty easy
11:56<andythenorth>buildings are most fun
11:57<nekomaster>im kind of having fun drawing these buses
11:57<nekomaster>when I'm not overwriting 3 hours of work
11:57<andythenorth>Alberth: fixed this
11:57<Samu>hmm must investigate, see if i can copy paste it into ships
11:59<@Alberth>:O paths! how nice
12:03<Eddi|zuHause>who emptied my mouse battery?
12:03<nekomaster>Not me
12:03<Wolf01>andythenorth, that vineyard remembers me about
12:03<nekomaster>I have a 4 year old Kana mouse
12:04<andythenorth>maybe I should draw a castle
12:04<Eddi|zuHause>as long as it's not neuschwanstein...
12:05<Eddi|zuHause>or its cheap knockoff, the disney castle
12:05<nekomaster>I know! draw a Medival Times castle!
12:05<Wolf01> or this, this is near my home
12:05<Samu>oh, reserved tracks can only have 1 train on them
12:06<nekomaster>70 dollars admisision
12:06<Samu>for ships, this would be bad
12:06<nekomaster>Thats something that could be done for a tourist destination for a industry set, a stationary ship or plane
12:06<Samu>it sets the track as "reserved" or "unreserved"
12:06<Samu>in the map array thingy
12:06<nekomaster>How about setting the tracks on fire?
12:07<Wolf01>Samu, we like one ship per tile
12:07<Wolf01>Also, andythenorth, did you read the comment on NotWater?
12:08<Samu>my idea would be like ... multiple ships being able to reserve the same tracks
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12:10<nekomaster>Man, I'm glad I'm not color blind
12:10<nekomaster>Otherwise my sprites would probably look weird
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12:11<Samu>YAPF and NPF try to reserve a path for the ship as long as possible. This improves the performance of ship pathfinding. Added by J0anJosep
12:11<Samu>who's this josanjopp guy?
12:11<Samu>he did it
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12:12<Eddi|zuHause>*insert something rude here about assuming that they don't*
12:15<Wolf01>Oh, tomorrow is brexit
12:15<@Rubidium>it actually makes the performance of the pathfinding lower, but who cares?
12:15<nekomaster>I wonder how Brexit will effect the Commonwealth countries
12:17<Samu>performance is lower, how?
12:17<@Alberth>lower, as in not higher?
12:17<@Rubidium>it needs to do more in the pathfinding to reserve the stuff
12:18<@Rubidium>having said that, it will require fewer pathfinding calls... but that's not improving the performance of pathfinding
12:22<Samu>lets see what happens
12:22<Samu>trying to download his stuff
12:29<nekomaster>Well I think I'm pretty much done a GMC New look now
12:29<nekomaster>I hope New Yorkers will be happy :)
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12:41<@peter1138>Rubidium, "ship pathfinding" covers overall behaviour rather than "ship pathfinder"
12:43<@peter1138>so this guy has done everything :p
12:45<@peter1138>big rail depots...
12:45<@peter1138>depot platforms...
12:46<LordAro>was gonna say
12:46<LordAro>that's an impressive amount of stuff
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12:55<andythenorth>such patches
12:59<frosch123>our original gfx fanboys are such amateurs
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12:59<frosch123> <- look what insane lists people can compose for other games
13:00<nekomaster>GMC New look and old look sprites!
13:00<nekomaster>after I check the mail, get more coffee, and maybe have something to eat, its off to work on the Orion 1 Bus
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13:04<Samu>dayum, water track reservation, he did what I was thinking about
13:06<Samu>i dont like what he has done to docks, they're only 1 tile
13:06<V453000>zerg rush much?
13:10<Samu>i like the potential of track reservation
13:10<Samu>too bad it can only be reserved by 1 ship at a time
13:10<Samu>I would try to implement it in some other way
13:11<Samu>cache the path perhaps
13:11<Samu>something Alberth said
13:12<@peter1138>that's the whole point of reservation
13:13<Samu>that'd be nice if rivers were wider
13:13<Samu>they're blocking each other
13:17<Samu>i wonder how this could be done :(
13:17<Samu>cache the path, halp!
13:17<Samu>prevent pathfinder from repeating each tile
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13:31<Samu>so he uses the map array t.t
13:31<Samu>much like trains
13:31<Samu>but then, how does the pathfinder only find once?
13:31<Samu>it doesn't need to pathfind multiple times, i still have to figure where this is done
13:32<@peter1138>it can follow the reservation
13:34<frosch123>did anyone checkout juanjo's font gui patch?
13:35<@peter1138>heh, looking at it in his repo now
13:37<frosch123>good, no more distractions from nrt for me :)
13:38<@peter1138>it seems to want me to pick a font by path
13:38<@peter1138>instead of the usual way
13:38<@peter1138>no font list as such
13:40<@peter1138>heh, circling boats
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13:48<Samu>i need something akin to path reservation, instead of using map array, use something else, probably vehicle cache to store the path?
13:49<Samu>damn, it sucks that I can't program for real
13:49<Samu>i have so many ideas :(
13:50<@peter1138>you probably want path caching
13:50<@peter1138>which is not reservation
14:00<@peter1138>hmm, so ships dock when they enter a tile, which is fine
14:01<@peter1138>they do it at the very edge
14:01<@peter1138>looks odd for small ships
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14:17<@peter1138>i have a suspicion this code only works nicely because i'm on a small map
14:26<Wolf01>Try 65536x32
14:26<@peter1138>yeah no
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15:32<Arveen2>i hope that screen is claw resistant
15:35<@peter1138>i guess the destination finder should have a max distance
15:35<@peter1138>though that might just end up making it worse
15:41<Samu>that's max_penalty
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15:41<Samu>trains searching for depot, have it
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16:50<@peter1138>Any objections to not requiring group names to be unique at all?
16:50<andythenorth>ascii shrug
16:52<Wolf01><andythenorth> ascii shrug <- Please, just don't tie each other ;)
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17:30<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think that qualifies as ascii
17:32<@peter1138>That took long enough!
17:37<Samu>anyone looking into ship pathfinding atm?
17:38<@peter1138>And also noone
17:38<Samu>how to cache paths?
17:38<Samu>don't know where to start
17:38<Samu>but it looks like an idea with potential
17:44<@DorpsGek>Commit by peter1138 :: r27833 trunk/src/track_type.h (2017-03-28 23:44:40 +0200 )
17:44<@DorpsGek>-Change: Trackdir maps directly to TrackdirBits
17:45<@peter1138>ooh white skittles
17:46<Samu>hmm trackdir stuff, i saw that a lot lately :(
17:47<Samu>trackdir maps directly to trackdirbits?
17:47<@peter1138>1 << trackdir = trackdirbit
17:47<@peter1138>instead of... 0x0800
17:47<@peter1138>no actual change
17:48<@peter1138>just sets the value a different way where you can see where it comes from
17:52<Samu>ah i see
17:55<@peter1138>actually inspired by juanjo's git repo
17:55<@peter1138>he used numbers instead of the trackdirs, heh
17:58<@peter1138>hmm well
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18:31<@peter1138>yeah, ship docking works better when you restrict the trackbits
18:31<@peter1138>bit it needs neighbour info which is not nice
18:32<@peter1138>Maybe storing water trackbits on the map is not a bad idea
18:34<Samu>what ship docking? what is it doing?
18:35<@peter1138>if it docks on the trackbit which heads to the dock tile itself, it then can't find a path when it leaves the dock
18:35<@peter1138>gives you the ship is lost message, briefly
18:35<@peter1138>gets to the end of the tile, turns around, and magically it's happy again
18:36<Samu>ah, that bug
18:36*peter1138 tries sparse towns
18:36<Samu>or "not really a bug" but annoying anyway
18:36<@peter1138>it's a bit keen to say it's lost
18:36<@peter1138>but then the message is deleted
18:37<@peter1138>it's like... did i imagine that?
18:40<Samu>i had to use 2 path finds to overcome that, just to find a depot
18:40<Samu>did u see my post on the forum?
18:41<Samu>my patch* typo
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19:52<@peter1138>and of course changing the water tile trackbits breaks savegames :(
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20:09<Samu>cyas goodnight
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---Logclosed Wed Mar 29 00:00:45 2017