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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-03-30

---Logopened Thu Mar 30 00:00:46 2017
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04:43<Wolf01>o/
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04:49<Wolf01>Oh hi, long time no see
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05:29<Samu>hi
05:31<crem>hi
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06:43<Wolf01>I didn't notice that we had the Prince of Madness in this chan :D
06:44<@peter1138>ok so
06:45<@peter1138>we fork & exec the extmidi process, which is nice
06:45<@peter1138>but one process i use doesn't cleanly shutdown on SIGTERM, but does with SIGINT
06:47<@peter1138>:S
06:48<Wolf01>Internet didn't gave you any suitable solution?
06:48<__ln__>*give
06:48<@peter1138>well i know i can send whatever signal i like
06:48<@peter1138>but i don't know what is appropriate
06:48<@peter1138>i mean, is it just a bug in this other program that it doesn't cleanly shutdown on SIGTERM?
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06:52<@peter1138>orudge fix your shitty connection young man
06:52<Wolf01>Maybe I should donate 5€
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07:41<Samu>question, https://hg.openttd.org/trunk.hg/file/d304b218dbd9/src/pathfinder/opf/opf_ship.cpp
07:42<Samu>shouldn't 'the_dir' be TrackdirBits?
07:42<Samu>why is it TrackdirByte
07:42<Samu>line 32
07:43<@peter1138>no
07:45<@peter1138>100 tpf->the_dir = TrackEnterdirToTrackdir(track, direction);
07:45<@peter1138>^ trackdir, not trackdirbits
07:45<Wolf01>Oh, Eddi|zuHause they seem to have fixed the blasting sound volume in the menu of transport fever :D
07:46<@peter1138>but
07:46<Samu>it gets trackdir but stores as trackdirbyte
07:46<Wolf01>Now it would be cool if it gets fixed in OTTD too :>
07:47<@peter1138>Wolf01, the intro game?
07:47<Wolf01>Nah, BMG in the entire game
07:47<@peter1138>BMG?
07:47<Wolf01>Background music
07:47<@peter1138>what?
07:47<Wolf01>*BGM
07:47<@peter1138>what's wrong with it?
07:47<Wolf01>Every time I launch the game I get the music at 100% while it is at 15%
07:47<@peter1138>on windows?
07:47<Wolf01>This since... ever
07:48<Wolf01>Yes
07:48<Wolf01>I need to move the volume slider to make it work right
07:48<@peter1138>don't see it on flyspray
07:48<Wolf01>I was sure I reported it a lot of time ago...
07:52<Wolf01>Wow... rail speed layer, this is really a good addition
07:53<Wolf01>Ha! There is a stupid slowdown from 120 to 87
07:53<Wolf01>Straight track
07:54<@peter1138>well, music volume is set on start up
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07:55<@peter1138>does it stay the same volume when the track changes?
07:55<Wolf01>I don't know, never gave it time
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07:59<Wolf01>It seem to do it only the first time I run the game, if I quit and run it again the volume is right
08:00<Wolf01>*after changing the volume, if I don't change the volume I bet it stays at 100% every time
08:00<Wolf01>But I might have to reboot to check it
08:01<@peter1138>is it dmusic or win32 driver?
08:01<Wolf01>How could I tell it?
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08:02<@peter1138>-d driver=1
08:02<@peter1138>(run in a terminal)
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08:03<Wolf01>It says nothing
08:03<@peter1138>nothing?
08:03<Wolf01>Oh ok, I had to start the music
08:03<Wolf01>win32 driver
08:07<Samu>peter1138: if it's Trackdir, why is it using TrackdirByte, any special reason?
08:11<@peter1138>- byte track;
08:11<@peter1138>+ TrackdirByte track;
08:11<@peter1138>r8038: merge cpp branch
08:12<Samu>what does that mean?
08:12<Samu>gonna try Trackdir, see if it crashes or something
08:20<Wolf01>Do you know about variable types?
08:22<Samu>line 141 is also confusing
08:22<Samu>byte ship_dir
08:22<Samu>why not Direction ship_dir
08:24<Samu>oh, it's DirectionByte
08:24<Samu>i don't understand this stuff
08:26<@peter1138>:)
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08:37<drac_boy>hi
08:37<@peter1138>hello dragonhorseboy
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09:32<Samu>alright, i might be able to do something for opf after all, but it requires some struct changes
09:33<Samu>i need to have ship owner in the pfs
09:33<Samu>TrackPathFinder { bla; bla; Owner ship_owner; };
09:36<Samu>now i can detect a ship depot tile of the owner of the ship
09:36<Samu>now, all i have to do is... pathfind to something that is a ship depot tile
09:36<Samu>hmm
09:37<Samu>whatever it finds first, use it as the destination
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09:55<Wolf01>Nice, double slip switches, let me see if I can fix some stations now
10:00<Wolf01>Fixed a tricky one
10:06<Samu>making opf great again
10:06<Samu>keke
10:07<@peter1138>yeah no
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11:06<Wolf01>o/
11:06<@Alberth>moin
11:06<@peter1138>hello
11:15<supermop>yo
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13:00<Samu>yay, for the first time, I made opf locate a ship depot on its own
13:00<Samu>but it fails most of the time
13:01<Samu>hmm wondering how i can improve this
13:01<@Alberth>improve the heuristic
13:03<Samu>i'm not really sure how it checks the tiles
13:03<@Alberth>it might not even do that
13:04<@Alberth>it's not a proper path-finder like yapf or npf
13:04<Samu>when it doesn't have the destination tile, i had to fake a "bird_dist"
13:04<Samu>keeps on decreasing bird_dist-- every check
13:04<Samu>just so it can keep searching
13:05<@Alberth>ok, I never read the code of opf
13:05<Samu>how to fake this bird_dist better?
13:05<Samu>the destination tile is unknown
13:06<Samu>but it requires some distance, to see if it's closer to the target
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13:07<@Alberth>do you know about bisection?
13:07<Samu>nop
13:10<@Alberth>say you want to find a word in a dictionary
13:10<@Alberth>basically it can be anywhere, but the book is ordered alphabetically
13:11<@Alberth>bisection say that you have a first place where it can be and a last place where it can be, and it's anywhere inbetween
13:11<@Alberth>you pick the page in the middle between both places, and check an entry there
13:12<@Alberth>if that entry is smaller than what you're looking for, you know the word you're looking for is not in the first half
13:12<@Alberth>if it's bigger, the word is not in the second half
13:13<@Alberth>so you're reducing the number of pages to look by 50%
13:13<@Alberth>you can of course play this game again with the remaining pages
13:14<@Alberth>until you found the word, or concluded it's not in it
13:14<Samu>i can retrieve the location of all depots
13:14<Samu>and then send it to the pathfinder as destination
13:14<Samu>see if it can find for each?
13:14<@Alberth>is a depot at the other side of the map useful to try?
13:15<Samu>nop, not really
13:15<Samu>there is a max_distance of about 12 tiles for automatic service, and an unlimited distance for forced service
13:16<Samu>it's 12 for opf for some reason, the other 2 it's about 20
13:18<Samu>hmm i see what you mean, i attempt to locate a depot within x tiles radius from the location of the ship
13:19<Samu>send it to pathfinder to see if it can find a way to it
13:19<Samu>is that it?
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13:19<@Alberth>not sure, but you're trying to decide a bird-distance, I thought bisection may be useful
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13:23<Samu>hmm i might try a different approach indeed
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27836 trunk/src/lang/catalan.txt (2017-03-30 19:45:36 +0200 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from Eints:
13:45<@DorpsGek>catalan: 2 changes by juanjo
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14:34<Wolf01>@seen andythenorth
14:34<@DorpsGek>Wolf01: andythenorth was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 21 hours, 43 minutes, and 32 seconds ago: <andythenorth> ascii shrug
14:34<Wolf01>Mmmh, brexit negative effect?
14:43<Samu>hmm
14:44<@peter1138>so apparently we have timetable stuff and it works
14:45<@peter1138>and apparently it can do separation? though i've never had it working
14:45<@peter1138>what do i do wrong?
14:45<Samu>HALP https://paste.openttdcoop.org/plwntbwg1
14:45<Samu>i got a problem with the loop
14:45<Samu>i want it to sort before searching with the pathfinder
14:46<Samu>else it can jump from depot to depot everytime is advances a tile
14:46<Wolf01>Did you timetabled the entire trip with the first vehicle, them ctrl+started the vehicles from the depot?
14:46<@peter1138>no
14:46<@peter1138>i usually have 1 vehicle
14:46<@peter1138>then add others later
14:46<Wolf01>Btw, I always find my vehicles clump together also when timetabled and started separate
14:47<Samu>how to sort a list of depots based on distance manhattan and then have the pathfinder search in order of closest to distant?
14:48<Wolf01>If you add them later you must stop the entire line and separate them again
14:48<@peter1138>is it this ctrl-start that does the magic?
14:48<Wolf01>Seem so
14:48<@peter1138>cos i've never heard of it
14:48<Wolf01>The separation seem to be done only when starting from the depot
14:49<@peter1138>what if they're all in different depots :S
14:49<@peter1138>and then
14:49<@peter1138>what is the autoseparation patch?
14:49<Wolf01>I think that tries to keep track on when the last vehicle of a "line" visited a station
14:49<frosch123>the trunk separation is a one time thing
14:49<Wolf01>s/on/of
14:50<Samu>u talking to me? i'm a bit lost
14:50<frosch123>the patch is a continuous thing
14:50<@peter1138>are there issues with the patch?
14:50<frosch123>it's kind of the opposite of timetabling
14:50<Wolf01>No clue, never tried it and get tired of timetables too as they don't seem to work
14:51<Wolf01>I usually set "load for 2 days"
14:51<frosch123>i have no idea how it is used, whether it is a global thing or similar
14:51<Wolf01>Or in case of freight, load for 10 days
14:52<frosch123>but if it is, it would break synchronisation of vehicles from other routes
14:52<frosch123>if someone uses that
14:53<@peter1138>i've never managed to achieve any form of synchronisation with the current timetables
14:53<Wolf01>I like the transport fever autoseparation, it's continuous but has the only downside to block the stations, so you get the red wave effect sometimes
14:54<frosch123>peter1138: anyway, i think jgr made several modifications to the original patch
14:54<@peter1138>jgr's patch pack is what i'm looking through
14:55<@peter1138>i just wonder... is it an improvement worth having, and if it is, what has stopped it being included
14:56<frosch123>i have never understood the point of any kind of timetables :)
14:56<@peter1138>(or of course maybe just nobody's looked at it)
14:56<frosch123>i certainly did not look at it
14:56<frosch123>rb may have, since he did the trunk version of the other thing
14:57<@peter1138>i think maybe they're more useful for passenger/mail traffic than cargo, certainly
14:57<@peter1138>if i set up multiple vehicles on the same route, they will nearly always end up with vehicles bunched together
14:57<@peter1138>timetimes can help a bit but once vehicles start getting late, they are basically ignored
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14:58<frosch123>i always set vehicles to load for n days, and do not set any travel times
14:58<frosch123>which is more or less a work-around for percentage load
14:58<@peter1138>work-around?
14:59<@peter1138>hm
14:59<frosch123>the problem with vehicles bunching up is, the first vehicle loads everything, the other ones leave empty, right?
14:59<frosch123>you do not want to full-load, you do not want to half-load
14:59<frosch123>load-for-n-days is the only intermediate thing we have
15:00<frosch123>in general i would prefer more conditional orders, which would allow setting percentage loads per cargo type and minimum/maximum loading times
15:00<frosch123>i never found a use-case for travel times
15:01<frosch123>but possibly this is a pbs<->presignal, cdist<->transfer argument
15:01<frosch123>vehicle separation does everything automaticaly, the order system would allow manual construction
15:04<Wolf01>Also, peter1138, I hope the vanilla autoseparation doesn't relies only on autofilled timetable
15:05<Wolf01>And I would like a mixed full load order with timetable (load for 15 days but leave if full load)... as now it seem to work only for load if available
15:05<Samu>chat is busy
15:06<frosch123>i think there was some forum discussion about more detailed orders
15:06<frosch123>which split up the single-entry station load order into multiple lines, to specify cargo filters, and waiting conditions
15:07<frosch123>but users of that would be distinct from those using auto separation :)
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15:14<Wolf01>Sure, autoseparation need continuous work to be effective
15:15<@peter1138>in trunk? so it's effectively useless
15:18<@peter1138>q
15:19<Wolf01>The problem with timetables is that you don't have enough time to make it adapt to the network, you can set "I want at the factory a load of steel on 1st april, a load of grain on 3rd april and depart with canned food on 15th april to reach the city on 4th may"
15:21<Wolf01>But it's weird with planning a week(s) long trips
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>trunk-separation works by ctrl+click on "startdate" in the timetable window
15:32<Eddi|zuHause>but you need at least one station that has extra-long waiting times to catch up lateness
15:32<Eddi|zuHause>and that station should have the ability to overtake (bit tricky with trams)
15:35<Wolf01>My calculator says: the sum of those does not work
15:35<Eddi|zuHause>otherwise you permanently get a late vehicle stuck behind an on-time vehicle
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, there is nothing "auto" about that separation
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>except for saving you the trouble of setting an individual start time for each vehicle
15:38<Eddi|zuHause>what's maybe missing is the ability to skip a full round-trip if you're more than X days (or X%) late
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>or possibly the ability for two vehicles to flip their start date position
15:40<@peter1138>is this stuff this patch resolves?
15:40<@peter1138>i don't quite get "opposite of timetaabling"
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15:44<Eddi|zuHause>"autoseparation" is more like "scheduling" rather than "realtime"
15:45<Eddi|zuHause>basically, autoseparation takes over the timetable feature, so you cannot manually timetable anymore, but it constantly adjusts the times to (hopefully) keep your vehicles separated
15:46<Eddi|zuHause>so you can set the times as a guideline for autoseparation, but basically they are ignored
15:46<Eddi|zuHause>(except for the total roundtrip time, which gets used as the base for the separation)
15:48<@peter1138>hmm
15:48<@peter1138>so if it's there it definitely needs to be a per-order-list setting
15:52<frosch123>with "opposite" i meant: timetables make vehicles always run the on the same schedule. the patch changes that to adjust the timetables all the time dependending on how the vehicles run
15:54<@peter1138>yes
15:54<@peter1138>ideally you'd set the timetable and it would then just manage to keep them separated based on that
15:54<@peter1138>but i dunno
15:54<@peter1138>difficult if the timetable is too short
15:56<frosch123>that's also a kind of a problem of the current auto-fill
15:56<frosch123>it does not add extra time to loading timte
15:56<frosch123>*times
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>in the "real" world you'd timetable with something like 80% of max speed, so you have the ability to go faster to catch up when late
15:56<Wolf01>And overtake
15:57<Wolf01>Specially overtake
15:57<@peter1138>overtaking would be possible if they weren't all going the same speed
15:57<@peter1138>except for trains
15:58<Wolf01>Articulated vehicles can't overtake
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>trams can't overtake
15:58<@peter1138>but then in ottd you want your vehicles to go as fast as possible anyway
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>in traffic jams you can't overtake
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>vehicles don't balance over two lanes of a one-way road
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>or over two parallel roads
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>lots of things missing
15:59<@peter1138>meanwhile, clearly this patch is deemed useful as it's been around long enough
15:59<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: i dislike autoseparation, but i can totally understand the demand for it
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>afair the main problem has always been how to disable it
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>there always seemed to be two settings which claimed to enable autoseparation
16:02<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: being able to timetable a target speed would be nice
16:02<supermop>currently if i schedule a tram to drive at 80% speed over a segment, it will never go to 100 even if late
16:03<Eddi|zuHause>exactly, but if you overload it too much it will be even more of a pain to set up
16:03<Eddi|zuHause>there needs to be timetable macromanagement
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>like instant autofilling
16:04<@peter1138>you can schedule speed limits?
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>yes
16:04<supermop>yep
16:04<@peter1138>hmm
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16:05<supermop>it would be nice to have a savegame wide company setting to schedule timbled vehicles to drive at x% max speed?
16:05<supermop>to save figuring it out each time?
16:05<supermop>non timetabled vehicles just drive at whatever they can
16:06<supermop>but the skip a round would be a life saver for trams
16:06<frosch123>sounds equivalent to "add x% time to all auto-filled timetable entries"
16:06<supermop>frosch123: but for speed
16:06<frosch123>why would you want to let vehicles drive slower?
16:07<frosch123>if they could also load during that time
16:07<Eddi|zuHause>to save energy on acceleration :p
16:07<Eddi|zuHause>and wear :p
16:08<@peter1138>frosch123, it seems you can, though
16:08<frosch123>yes, michi_cc added that iirc
16:08<@peter1138>"Change Speed Limit" in timetables is there
16:08<@peter1138>so somebody thought it was useful
16:08<supermop>if several lines share a tram stop, i might not want an early tram from line 1 to show up too soon and block a late tram from line 2?
16:08<frosch123>i don't think i used it a single time :)
16:08<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: do you guys have a term for 'turns' like brits do in their rail parlance?
16:09<supermop>like 'this train is working this turn"?
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know what you mean
16:09*frosch123 should make a list of unused ottd features to remove. then compare that list to andy's
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16:10<supermop>like there is a concept of a 'working' or service or whatever - lets say Edinburgh - York - London
16:10<supermop>that leaves at 14:00 or whatever
16:10<@peter1138>let's just play TTD
16:10<supermop>that's kind of separate from the concept of a physical train - "train 1" or whatever
16:11<supermop>if train 1 is all fucked, you could ask train 2 to work that service
16:11<frosch123>we call it "linie" (line)
16:11<supermop>even if every other day train 1 does it
16:11<frosch123>it's like in simutrans
16:11<frosch123>there you create "order lists" and assign vehicles to them
16:12<supermop>so maybe tram 4 runs the 13:30 service to Wherever Heights
16:12<@peter1138>vehicles should use "i'm early" time to get serviced :p
16:12<supermop>but its so late that it wont be able to start until 14:30, meanwhile tram 5 is sitting there with nothing to do
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>there's usually an "Umlauf", meaning if you have a schedule that takes 3 hours one way, and goes every 2 hours, then you assign one train to take trips 1,4,7 one train takes 2,5,8 and one train takes 3,6
16:13<supermop>then let tram 4 and 5 swap runs
16:13<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: yeah
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know any more details than that
16:16<frosch123>i think the majority of trains just service the same route in both directions
16:16<frosch123>it's obvious on regional trains
16:16<frosch123>but it does not appear to be different for ice
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16:16<Eddi|zuHause>in our local tram system, occasionally two lines are connected
16:17<+michi_cc>peter1138: There was an attempt to make a railtype GRF with like 10 mph speed limit increments, which I found a bit too silly.
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>so if you have line 1 going A-B and line 2 going A-C, you have one tram going A-B-A-C-A-B-...
16:17<@peter1138>oh gods
16:17<@peter1138>was that the guy asking the other day?
16:17<@peter1138>wanted 32 rail types...
16:17<frosch123>can we add a weight limit to timetables?
16:18<@peter1138>that is nonsense
16:18<frosch123>why do you hate scrollable dropdowns?
16:18<@peter1138>?
16:18<frosch123>:p
16:19<frosch123>peter1138: sorry, i just cannot imagine a gui for 32 railtypes
16:19<frosch123>andy coimplains about the station gui all the time
16:19<frosch123>i don't think a dropdown with 32 items fits on his screen
16:19<@peter1138>that's because he has a super retina display and runs at 4x * 2x * 8x or something
16:23<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, problem with ignoring the timetable speed limit is you don't know when you are back on schedule again until the next stop
16:23<@peter1138>then it ends up being early and hogs a station slot
16:24<@peter1138>(not that that doesn't happen anyway)
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that is a problem of the timetables being a bit crude
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>you could work around that by placing more waypoints
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>currently, waypoints are a bit useless for timetabling, because they only tell you how early/late you are, but can't be used to balance that out
16:27<@peter1138>can't stop at them i suppose
16:28<Eddi|zuHause>allowing slowdown or speedup would help with that
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16:50<@peter1138>ok so what else
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17:17<supermop>new property for buses for probability of passengers getting sick
17:21<Samu>peter1138: let me present u the OPFShipFindNearestDepot https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pgbublr1a
17:24<Samu>gonna check if this is working as intended, brb
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17:28<@peter1138>enhanced viewport looks cool... and bit... and probably buggy :p
17:29<Samu>perhaps i don't need to compute the reversed distance, since I'm not gonna reverse
17:29<Samu>this can be simplified
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17:30<Samu>actually, I'm not sure
17:32<Samu>gonna experiment without it
17:33<@DorpsGek>Commit by peter1138 :: r27837 trunk/src/blitter/8bpp_simple.cpp (2017-03-30 23:33:40 +0200 )
17:33<@DorpsGek>-Fix (r26969): Black remap did nothing in 8bpp-simple blitter.
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17:37<@peter1138>too much in one patch though
17:37<@peter1138>industry tool tips etc
17:42<Wolf01>http://englishrussia.com/images/newpictures/Fishing_in_the_North//104321/70214/142979_3_trinixy_ru.jpg heh...
17:43<Wolf01>It's the compatibility link between tram and water
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17:48<@peter1138>ctrl-click... no separation hmm.
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17:51<Samu>damn it, i'm dealing with too many distances, grrr
18:04<Samu>how is int to uint converted?
18:04<Samu>why use int for distances if they're always positive?
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18:06<Samu>question, i got a int max_distance = INT_MAX, but i need to convert it to uint
18:06<Samu>(uint)max_distance = what?
18:06<Samu>INT_MAX or UINT_MAX?
18:07<Wolf01>'night
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18:08<Samu>nobody knows?
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18:45<+glx>Samu: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two%27s_complement
18:59<@peter1138>hurr
18:59<@peter1138>tubular brass
19:09<Eddi|zuHause>it's called a Tuba for a reason :p
19:14<Eddi|zuHause>oh, there was a transport fever patch
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20:19<Samu>glx, i got (uint)max_distance = INT_MAX
20:19<Samu>which is still okay
20:19<Samu>if (distdepot <= (uint)max_distance && distdepot < best_dist) {
20:20<Samu>max_distance is a int and is equalt to INT_MAX
20:20<+glx>casting to uint never change the value, only its interpretation
20:21<Samu>sometimes max_distance is equal to 20
20:21<Samu>(uint)20 = 20
20:21<Samu>so i got nothing to worry about then
20:21<+glx>negative int just become big uint
20:22<+glx>(uint)-1=MAX_UINT ;)
20:22<Samu>ah nah. i'm never dealing with negative distances, the values max_distance can be are 0, 20 and INT_MAX
20:23<+glx>so it's safe for your math
20:23<Samu>cool, thx
20:24<Samu>alrigh, going to bed, tomorrow i'll post this, i just figured out better how to feed OPF
20:24<Samu>patch is nearly ready for opf :)
20:24<Samu>cyas
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---Logclosed Fri Mar 31 00:00:48 2017