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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-04-03

---Logopened Mon Apr 03 00:00:52 2017
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03:02<@peter1138>hmm, so in yapf
03:03<@peter1138>max_penalty means max_penalty_unless_destination_found
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04:11<@peter1138>so if i enforce the max_penalty, then... loads of trains never get serviced :p
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04:41<Samu>hi peter1138 , i didn't change yaps rail depots
04:42<Samu>are you testing my patch or?
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05:11<@peter1138>no i'm testing trunk
05:11<V453000>sooooooooooooooo how do I use grfstrip? :D
05:11<V453000>apparently some guy with E3-1230v6 and an i7 7700K has problems with extra zoom
05:12<V453000>not even mentioning problems with 32bpp
05:12<V453000>how do I strip the grf by grfstrip?
05:12<@peter1138>i guess... run it and check the parameters needed? i dunno, i've never seen it.
05:13<V453000>yeah "run it" is what I need info about :D
05:15<V453000>O-O maybe it worked
05:15<@peter1138>i imagine it has parameters
05:15<@peter1138>./grfstrip -h?
05:15<@peter1138>random webpage search:
05:15<@planetmaker>V453000, instead of castrating your grf you might want to tell the guy to tune his settings ;)
05:16<V453000>but which settings
05:17<V453000>he has sprite_cache_size_px = 512 and is trying to run the game with both 8bpp optimized and 32bpp optimized blitters
05:17<V453000>on 4K screen
05:18<V453000>says making window smaller helps
05:18<V453000>so 4K is clearly not helping, but yeah
05:26<dihedral>tell him to buy a different screen
05:27<@planetmaker>256 colour VGA screen ;)
05:27<Samu>something interesting just happened, NPF vs Yapf
05:27<Samu>NPF trains did actually find a way, while Yapf didn't
05:27<Samu>it's a peculiar test
05:28<Samu>i suppose that on very heavy networks, NPF will do better
05:29<Samu>it's a worst case scenario testings
05:30<Samu>either that, or NPF was lucky, must investigate this better
05:33<Samu>some weird thing is happening on NPF, the train is not getting serviced
05:34<@peter1138>samu, probably related to this
05:34<Samu>when the train needs to service, but has a PBS track to follow, the train won't find a way to a depot, it's forced to follow
05:34<Samu>the pbs
05:37<Samu>looks like once the tracks are reserved, they can't be updated if the vehicle suddenly needs to service, using NPF, not sure about how Yapf handles this
05:38<Samu>also not being updated if the train needs to go to any other destination, not just depots, just tested skipping orders
05:40<Samu>gonna check yapf, on a more manageable situation
05:40<Samu>not on a worst case scenario
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05:44<Samu>once the path is reserved, the train is forced to follow it, no matter what? is that how it's supposed to work?
05:46<Samu>yapf handles this better
05:46<Samu>than nf
05:50<Samu>you're right peter1138 "Fixing this affects train depot finding adversely (as it relies on this bug). "
05:50<Samu>or actually, not really, i'm confused with max_search_nodes
05:51<Samu>one thing is max_search_nodes, other thing is max cost of a path
05:53<Samu>had you limited the max_search_nodes, then yes, it would affect train depot finding adversely, but that's not what max_penalty does
05:54<Samu>max_search_nodes is still the same, wether it's searching for a depot or searching for a route
05:56<Samu>the bug I found, happens on a worst case scenario, will 64x64 rail tiles in every direction, max_search_nodes is quickly reached and Yapf doesn't find a good path, be it depot or station
05:56<Samu>it bugs out
05:57<Samu>with* 64x64
05:58<Samu>with NPF, it did find a way, i dunno if it was by luck (found it before reaching the max_search_nodes limitation) or if it's really not bugged
06:02<Samu>just limited it to 500, still found a way, very odd
06:03<Samu>NPF is either extremely lucky, or ... i dunno, must investigate this better
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08:03<Arveen2> /o/ \o\
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08:14<V453000>isn't north
08:18<Wolf01>Isn't job
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09:05<@peter1138>Samu, reaching max_search_nodes and therefore not finding a path isn't "bugging out"
09:06<Samu>did you try with pbs ?
09:06<@peter1138>i'm not trying anything
09:06<@peter1138>i'm responding to your comment that "the bug i found" ... "it bugs out"
09:08<Samu>i tried to follow NPF counting and how it builds a path
09:08<Samu>got lost
09:10<Samu>there are 2 things happening that I think are bugs, 1 for yapf, 1 for npf
09:10<Samu>with yapf, the "bug" is solveable by increasing the max_search_nodes
09:12<Samu>with npf, a train that needs to service won't be able to pick a new route because it has been previously reserved for the last order
09:12<Samu>complicated to explain~
09:12<Samu>once the path is reserved, there's no other choice but to follow it 'till the end
09:13<Samu>the bug happens when CheckIfTrainNeedsService is called
09:13<Samu>the path is already reserved, and it can't compute a new path to a depot
09:13<@peter1138>as i said. reaching max_search_nodes is NOT a bug
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09:14<@peter1138>and i don't think anyone really cares about npf
09:14<Samu>what is yapf search based on?
09:14<Samu>npf is aystar
09:14<@peter1138>a* as well
09:15<Samu>really? then I really don't understand the different behaviour
09:15<Samu>let me post a savegame
09:15<@peter1138>different limits
09:15<@peter1138>different coding
09:16<@peter1138>i guess opf was dijkstra but then someone changed it to a* as well
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09:17<@peter1138>or was that ntp. can't remember now
09:19<@peter1138>^ how it works
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09:20<Samu>i sent you a pm on the forum with savegame
09:21<Samu>that save shows yapf failing
09:21<Samu>if you change the pathfinder to npf, you'll see it not failing
09:21<@peter1138>with the grid of 64x64 tiles?
09:21<@peter1138>then i'm not interested
09:21<@peter1138>it's not failing
09:21<Samu>oh :(
09:21<@peter1138>it's by design
09:21<@peter1138>not a bug
09:22<Samu>it's weird then that it doesn't fail on npf
09:22<Samu>i wanted to understand why it fails in one but not the other if they're both a*
09:22<@peter1138>they have limits implemented differently
09:22<@peter1138>and a different set of penalties
09:24<Samu>i set max_search_nodes to 500 and it still doesn't fail, which is... odd
09:24<Samu>it would require about 43000 for yapf, and 500 is still sufficient for npf? doesn't sound right
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09:28<Samu>weird, the code still mentions 10000, i thought it had changed, something's wrong
09:32<@peter1138>heh, that js shows how bad dijkstra is
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09:33<Samu> max_search_nodes 10000 unsigned int
09:34<Samu>why u no change to 500?
09:34<Samu>it initializes as 10000 for some reason
09:35<Samu>gonna force a 500 in the code
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09:39<Samu>alright, you're right after all
09:39<Samu>it not really "bugs out" with npf with 500
09:40<Samu>can't find a way
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09:40<Samu>i had to force 500 via code though, it wasn't reading the value i've set via console, even though it was already 500
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09:47<Samu>npf is only initialized once?
09:47<Samu>i'm deeply confused
09:49<Samu>void InitializeNPF()
09:50<Samu>{ bla; bla; _npf_aystar.max_search_nodes =; }
09:50<Samu>i loaded a savegame with 500 in it, but it was still 10000 when pathfinding
09:57<Samu>now it's working, really... I'm sorry
09:57<Samu>i am really terrible
09:58<Samu>set pf.npf.npf_max_searchnodes = 500 in the console does not change it
09:58<Samu>set pf.npf.npf_max_searchnodes 500 in the console does
09:58<Samu>my bad
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10:37<@Alberth>hi hi
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10:48<Samu>FS#6552 - i wonder if slope costs can affect max_penalty
10:49<Samu>it likely does
10:52<@Alberth>what is max_penalty?
10:53<Samu>it's the cost of a path
10:55<@Alberth>ok, what are slope costs then?
10:57<@Alberth>in general, I think the answer is yes, you can have any form of costs. The kind of path that you look for decides what is useful to see as cost
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11:05<Samu>hmm ships are complicated, can't compute water in segments
11:06<Samu>so this is how you save performance on yapf, you segmentate paths
11:10<Samu>it follows the entire segment until it finds a junction
11:11<Samu>the segment can be 50 tiles in a row
11:11<Wolf01>Interesting, I've always wondered why a train didn't consider to take a shortcut on fields instead of following the track
11:12<@Alberth>with not-fluid-types, it could take shortcuts across water
11:12<@Alberth>who need bridges? :)
11:13<Samu>ships are complicated, every tile splits the path
11:13<@peter1138>well done
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11:17<Samu>peter1138: i don't understand your bug report,
11:17<Samu>it's implemented for trains
11:17<Samu>not on the others
11:18<Samu>for rail, at least
11:18<Samu>yapf rail*
11:19<Samu>sorry, i'm semi dumb today, bear with me
11:20<Wolf01>I'm numb instead, too much boredom
11:20<Samu>the penalty for depot searching is only applied when it's trying to locate the closest depot during automatic service
11:20<Samu>if it's ordered to go to a nearest depot, there is no penalty, it's unlimited
11:20<Samu>well i dont understand what you're reporting then :(
11:21<@peter1138>"Yapf will return paths whose penalty is greater than max_penalty in some cases"
11:21<@peter1138>what is unclear?
11:21<Wolf01>It's english
11:22<@peter1138>i'm not normally accused of that :)
11:22<Samu>yapf computes a cost of 2000, then it halves /2, becomes 1000 when going back to checkiftrainneedsservice
11:22<Samu>is that it?
11:23<@peter1138>halves /2 ?
11:23<@peter1138>but no
11:23<@peter1138>"Yapf will return paths whose penalty is greater than max_penalty in some cases" < that is it
11:24<Samu>i don't get it, give me an example
11:24<Wolf01>"If fruit.size <= banana.size then return fruit", in your case it's returning watermelon
11:25<@peter1138>set max_penalty to ... 2000 (because you like that value i guess)... and it will sometimes return a path that has a penalty ... guess what...
11:25<@peter1138>higher than 2000
11:26<Samu>are you sure it does that?
11:26<Wolf01>Prove it!
11:27<Samu>I'm staring at yapf_costrail.hpp now, must see where that happens
11:28<Samu>i was looking to :479
11:28<@peter1138>yes that sets the flag
11:30<Samu>ah, the flag isn't being handled
11:30<Samu>is that it? so it never stops searching
11:30<@peter1138>not quite that simple!
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11:31<Wolf01>peter1138, speaking about more important things, it seem that the music volume was fixed too O_o
11:32<@peter1138>it was never touched
11:32<@peter1138>you made it up
11:32<Wolf01>Then 1.6.1 was haunted
11:33<Samu>what would happen if you put a break; on there? or a return false?
11:34<@peter1138>certainly, it's easy to fix that
11:35<@peter1138>but it "breaks" other things that rely in it
11:35<@peter1138>like depot finding
11:35<Samu>only for automatic servicing
11:35<Samu>which is fine, isn't it? :(
11:37<Samu>CheckIfTrainNeedsService is the only one that sets a max_penalty different than 0
11:40<Samu>:( there are many ways to find a depot, it's in the orders, you tell the train to go to depot, or the interval servicing
11:40<Samu>go to nearest depot = penalty is 0
11:40<Samu>you tell train to go to depot = penalty is 0
11:41<Samu>interval servicing = penalty is whatever it is on the config file, 2000 for default
11:53<Samu>I see this on juanjo patch + return FindDepotData(n->GetLastTile(), n->m_cost, pNode->m_cost != 0);
11:53<Samu>n->m_cost should be n->m_cost / 2 if it is to be equal to the original code
11:56<@peter1138>it should be penalty / 2 if it is to be equal
11:57<@peter1138>max_penalty / 2 sorry
11:58<@peter1138>but if the patch keeps the fake value
11:58<@peter1138>then there is no reason for it
11:58<Samu>n->m_cost is to be compared against the max_penalty
11:58<@peter1138>no it's not
11:59<Samu>max_penalty is a bad name, it's in fact, a cost
12:01<Samu>line 261 yapf_rail.cpp
12:02<@Alberth>variable names are one of the hardest things in programming
12:03<Wolf01>penalty_max_cost then
12:05<Samu>line 3967 train_cmd.cpp if (tfdd.best_length == UINT_MAX || tfdd.best_length > max_penalty) {
12:06<Samu>this max_penalty is the max_cost of the pathfinder halved /2
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12:08<Samu>sends the penalty as 2000, yapf computes it, and anything up to 4000 will still fail the check 4000 / 2 > 2000
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12:25<Samu>just checked about line 575
12:26<Samu>it's working, the flag is dealt with there, i'm getting a return false
12:27<Samu>cost was over 2000, and it stopped searching
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12:31<Samu>hmm, 2000 / 2 = 1000
12:31<Samu>over 2000, the pf doesn't find
12:31<Samu>1000 > 2000 is always false
12:32<Samu>the cost is UINT_MAX in that case
12:32<Samu>if it goes over 2000 in the pf
12:32<Samu>so, in essence, juanjo is right
12:33<Samu>n.m->cost is fine
12:33<Samu>n.m->cost / 2 or n.m->cost would make no difference
12:35<@peter1138>you're still wrong, though
12:37<@peter1138>because it doesn't return n.m->cost / 2
12:37<@peter1138>it returns max_penalty / 2
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12:42<andythenorth>Alberth: IH makefile mostly transplanted to FIRS in copy-paste
12:42<Samu>n.m_cost = parent_cost + segment_entry_cost + segment_cost + extra_cost;
12:43<Samu>if (m_max_cost > 0 && (parent_cost + segment_entry_cost + segment_cost) > m_max_cost)
12:43<Samu>okay, so it's not counting with the extra_cost
12:44<@peter1138>you are funny
12:46<Samu>so this is the bug you're referring to
12:47<Samu>extra_cost not being accounted for
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12:48<andythenorth>ach I made FIRS slower again
12:49<andythenorth>all these checks for incompatible industry, lot of advanced varact2
12:49<andythenorth>can’t OpenTTD check that crap for me? :|
12:52<@peter1138>what's an incompatible industry?
12:53<andythenorth>I give an ID, and min. distance
12:53<andythenorth>there’s a shit version built-in as a static property
12:53<andythenorth>limited to 3 industries
12:53<andythenorth>stops iron ore mine building right next to steel mill (for example)
12:57<@peter1138>so 2000 is... short
12:58<Samu>2000 is about 20 tiles without slopes and other funny stuff like cuves, train speed and so
12:59<Samu>oh wait, extra_cost isn't being accounted, ignore train speed
12:59<@Alberth>andythenorth: nice :)
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13:00<WegeClausen>Hi Question is there a feather list where i can see the town needs
13:01<WegeClausen>as a list
13:01<WegeClausen>at selection gifts
13:02<Samu>lol, the rail crossing penalty is aplied on trains instead of road vehicles...
13:02<WegeClausen>so select food gives the list of townes that take food
13:02<Samu>why so mean
13:02<Samu>level crossing penalty
13:03<@Alberth>WegeClausen: no
13:03<@peter1138>so i'm seeing a penalty of 5300
13:03<@peter1138>on the tile just outside a depot
13:04<@Alberth>"town" doesn't need food, it's "enough houses" near each other
13:05<@peter1138>pf.yapf.rail_depot_reverse_penalty is applied
13:05<@peter1138>even though it's not reversing
13:05<@peter1138>so there'a 5000 penalty just for going into a depot
13:05<@peter1138>no wonder 2000 doesn't work
13:06<@Alberth>start digging and find more bugs? :)
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13:06<@peter1138>it is applying that penalty even though the depot is the target :)
13:07<Samu>if that is true, how do trains still service?
13:07<@peter1138>Samu, as i said, it's due to this bug where max_penalty/2 is always used
13:08<Samu>5000/2 = 2500
13:10<@peter1138>Samu, max_penalty
13:10<@peter1138>not 5000
13:10<@peter1138>max_penalty/2 is always < max_penalty
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13:12<Samu>tfdd.best_length > max_penalty
13:12<@peter1138>Samu, best_length is max_penalty / 2 at that point
13:12<Samu>ah right
13:13<@peter1138>well, i guess the simple solution is to just include the reverse cost into the max_penalty
13:14<Samu>case VPF_YAPF: max_penalty = + something?
13:17<@peter1138>in fact i think it's probably the best way
13:17<@peter1138>else i fear that caching will get broken
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13:18<@peter1138>238 if (max_penalty != 0) pf1.DisableCache(true);
13:18<@peter1138>already disabled ahhg
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13:22<Samu>rail_depot_reverse_penalty = 5000
13:23<Samu>if (m_max_cost != 0) segment_cost += Yapf().PfGetSettings().rail_depot_reverse_penalty;
13:24<Samu>erm, no
13:24<Samu>== 0
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13:32<Samu> inline bool PfDetectDestination(TileIndex tile, Trackdir td)
13:35<Samu>how am i getting a Trackdir now lol
13:36<Samu>ah,, lol
13:37<Samu>if (!Yapf().PfDetectDestination(cur.tile, segment_cost += Yapf().PfGetSettings().rail_depot_reverse_penalty;
13:37<Samu>let's see what happens
13:40<Samu> segment_cost 300 int
13:40<Samu>5000 was not added
13:41<@peter1138>alternatively just flag a depot as a depot when you reach the depot
13:41<@peter1138>instead of turning around
13:42<@peter1138>but i have not determined what other impact that would have yet
13:43<Wolf01>What if you have to turn around at a depot to reach the nearest depot?
13:44<Samu>it just re-enters it
13:44<Samu>without exiting
13:44<@peter1138>Wolf01, where did we get this guy from
13:44<Wolf01>Dunno :)
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27842 trunk/src/lang/spanish.txt (2017-04-03 19:45:36 +0200 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from Eints:
13:45<@DorpsGek>spanish: 9 changes by SilverSurferZzZ
13:45<Wolf01>BTW, does it select the depot it wants to reach and then keeps it for the entire path or it's so smart to check for the nearest depot at every junction?
13:46<@peter1138>there's no memory as such
13:46<@peter1138>it just says "i need a depot pls"
13:46<@peter1138>and it's either too far, or there
13:49<Wolf01> __ln__, is that you?
13:56<@peter1138>hmm i guess i need to test this in MP with desync debugging on
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14:04<Samu>it works so far, i tried with an order to a depot, an order to search for closest depot, an order to a station
14:05<Samu>when it's ordered to enter X depot, and it's not the one it's looking for, the cost is added
14:06<Samu>you have a Set Destination in this case
14:06<Samu>tileindex doesn't match
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14:07<Samu>with an order to search for closest depot, it finds it and does not add 5000
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14:09<Samu>with an order to a station, it adds 5000 if goes through some depot
14:09<Samu>tileindex doesn't match with the destination
14:19<Samu>just tested one more case
14:20<Samu>if it's ordered to go to a depot, but it must pass through another depot, the cost is added when going through the first depot, and not added when it reaches destination depot
14:21<Samu>it works, everything werks!!
14:22<Samu>i actually see ppl build stuff like this
14:23<Samu>they remove the parallel track in front of depot, forcing train to enter the depot
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15:18<@peter1138>damn this bread roll is a bit stale
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15:25<@peter1138>Ship 20 is lost
15:25<@peter1138>thanks :p
15:26<@peter1138>I might just commit this and hope it's correct ;)
15:26<@peter1138>It works for me
15:27<@peter1138>Everything is getting serviced
15:28<@peter1138>Possibly even better than before.
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15:29<@peter1138>orudge why is your connection so shit these days :S
15:29<@peter1138>and also why are you never here :S
15:29<@peter1138>i always am :D
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16:01<@peter1138>aqueduct pillars are silly
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16:05<Wolf01>Bridge pillars are silly
16:05<Wolf01>I want true suspension bridges
16:23<frosch123>there used to be a setting to disable drawing of pillars
16:23<frosch123>not sure whether we removed it
16:23<frosch123>was removed in 0.6
---Logclosed Mon Apr 03 16:25:51 2017
---Logopened Mon Apr 03 16:30:36 2017
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16:31<@peter1138>the spambot's back!
16:31<andythenorth>is it?
16:31<frosch123>better do not mail support
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16:32<@peter1138>Dare I commit potential pathfinder (yapf even) fixes... I mean, it "works" right?
16:33<frosch123>the juanjo stuff?
16:33<SpComb>the unit tests pass, so it must work
16:33<@peter1138>Although I discovered issues after looking at those.
16:33<@peter1138>unit tests. lol
16:34<@peter1138>(actually there seems to have been unit tests for yapf at some point
16:34<frosch123>we have some automated tests
16:34<@peter1138>ai tests
16:43<@peter1138>any for pathfinding? if so, where? Hhe
16:46<frosch123>fs#5926 is a good one
16:49<@peter1138>that's not exactly a unit test...
16:49<@peter1138>and anyway they need grfs that aren't on bananas
16:49<frosch123>wasn't it a coop game?
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16:50<@peter1138>ottdc_grfpack\6_town_buildings or something
16:50<frosch123> <- so, that one
16:50<Pet0r>hi - was hoping someone could help me understand why a certain signal layout doesn't work
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16:51<Pet0r>I have a split where one route is "direct" route to the station and another is a "queuing area" which goes to the same station but snakes a bit for trains to wait in, I have a path signal before the split, and exit signals after, this does split the trains to some extent, but even when the exit signal in the shorter area is green, trains don't always take it
16:51<Pet0r>instead they will go into the longer area
16:52<Pet0r>but it doesn't always happen, I am not sure what the criteria is for why they pick the route they do
16:52<frosch123>path signals and exit signals do not belong together
16:52<Pet0r>even with entry it's the same problem
16:52<Pet0r>(entry placed where path is)
16:53<frosch123>if you ar eusing path signals only, then enable the "show reserved paths" option in the settings
16:55<Pet0r>I could use a single path, how does it do its decision making?
16:55<Pet0r>is it up to the next block signal or what?
16:55<Pet0r>or is it to the next instruction?
16:56<frosch123> <- check that
16:57<Pet0r>I did enable show reserved paths and I can see it reserving the less efficient path but not why
16:58<frosch123> <- maybe that one is better
16:59<Pet0r>ok so maybe path + block might work, I will try
16:59<@peter1138>Just path, generally, works well.
16:59<@peter1138>Block is only needed if you doing strange things with entry/combo/exit signals.
17:01<Pet0r>ok I am sure this looks horrible to you guys but here it is
17:01<Pet0r>there's a one way back signal at the start beofre the split
17:01<Pet0r>you can see there the train coming from the left has chosen and reserved the long route
17:01<Pet0r>but I just don't understand why
17:03<Pet0r>all trains are heading to that station on the right
---Logclosed Mon Apr 03 17:03:10 2017