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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-04-08

---Logopened Sat Apr 08 00:00:59 2017
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02:23<@Alberth>moin
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02:42<@peter1138>hi
02:45<@Alberth>o/
02:46<andythenorth>lo
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02:51<@peter1138>bugging me that water tiles next to the coast all dead-end onto the coast
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03:20<Eddi|zuHause>i think that's because coast tiles all register as water tiles
03:21<Eddi|zuHause>so the water tile thinks it's adjacent to another water tile, and thus allows the trackbits
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03:35<@peter1138>no, water tiles don't do any adjacency checks
03:39<Eddi|zuHause>really? i thought that was a thing... either in the pathfinder's follow track function, or in the ship's enter tile function
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08:35<quiznilo>so, I'm trying to understand production at Bulk Terminals with FIRS
08:36<@Alberth>what is not clear
08:36<quiznilo>it looks like it doesn't matter how much inputs you send it, it generates the same amounts month by month, beyond the 'normal/enhanced/gung-ho' levels
08:36<@Alberth>yep, as with other FIRS industries
08:37<@Alberth>hmm, really the same eh?
08:37<quiznilo>so beyond a certain level, it's 'wasteful' to send more to it, if you want more output
08:37<@Alberth>what does it need?
08:37<quiznilo>clay and food
08:37<quiznilo>and generates farm supplies and chemicals
08:38<quiznilo>and its operating at 'gung-ho' level
08:38<@Alberth>and monthly output at the industry window is not going up?
08:39<quiznilo>no
08:39<quiznilo>and I'm really juicing it
08:39<@Alberth>ie there is a difference between what you get in the trains, and what the industry produces
08:39<quiznilo>it looks like a primary
08:40<@Alberth>that concept is very blurred in FIRS, pretty much anything produces stuff
08:40<quiznilo>yeah, it's very circular
08:40<@Alberth>you could wait for andythenorth here, he should know
08:41<@Alberth>or post a question in the forum
08:41<@Alberth>be sure to mention a version, there are a zillion different FIRS versions, and they tend to change cargoes :)
08:42<@Alberth>personally, I don't aim to maximize production, so I never ran into your problem
08:42<@Alberth>can't you fund a new terminal for the additional cargo that you have?
08:43<@Alberth>can't use the same station as the other terminal, each industry needs its own delivery station
08:43<quiznilo>yeah
08:44<@Alberth>farm suplies may be a reason why it doesn't go up
08:44<quiznilo>firs tends to generate giant amounts of little-used track and stations
08:44<@Alberth>the entire idea is that these are limited
08:44<quiznilo>bulk terms say they take food and clay, and that's it
08:45<@Alberth>it changes per version and economy :p
08:45<quiznilo>they generate farm supplies, which I take... 162/month, and never higher
08:46<@Alberth>yeah, as I said, it may be intentional to limit supplies production, but I don't know
08:47<quiznilo>yeah, it looks like a primary industry, I expected proportional output
08:47<quiznilo>I'm getting the income from bringing all this stuff here
08:48<@Alberth>GRF industries have full control over how production scales with input, basically it can do anything
08:49<quiznilo>well, I'm done for today, have to work
08:49<@Alberth>I usually can't be bothered to do supplies, by the time I have most connections, I am bored of the game :)
08:49<@Alberth>ok, see you
08:50<quiznilo>hah
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09:32*frosch123 discovered pyspread
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09:41<Eddi|zuHause>what does that do?
09:45<@Alberth>spreading itself over all computers
09:45<@Alberth>aka distributed-processing
09:45<@Alberth>andy used it for a while at least
09:46<frosch123>https://manns.github.io/pyspread/index.html <- i mean that
09:46<frosch123>it's a spreadsheet application, but with python types and syntax
09:46<@Alberth>almost :p
09:46<@Alberth>spiffy
09:48<frosch123>but i would totally expect andy to build a cross-computer fork-bomb
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10:08<quiznilo>eep
10:18<@Alberth>ha, it was "spread", it's still on the python.org wiki, but the link is dead
10:26<@peter1138>Whew, that was a ride & a half
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11:39<DannyK_>Hello
11:39<DannyK_>I think I have found a bug in OpenTTD
11:40<DannyK_>Could someone take a look?
11:47<FLHerne>DannyK_: What bug have you found?
11:48<DannyK_>FLHerne: it's got to do with signals
11:48<FLHerne>(bugs should go at https://bugs.openttd.org/ once you're sure they exist)
11:48<DannyK_>https://k82.imgup.net/1-depot-co4c38.gif
11:48<FLHerne>Ah, that's not a bug, that's just how path signals work
11:48<FLHerne>Er, block signals
11:49<FLHerne>Path signals don't
11:49<DannyK_>And another one, when depot is disconnected:
11:49<@peter1138>yeah, it's in the same block
11:49<DannyK_>https://k32.imgup.net/2-depot-dia345.gif
11:49<FLHerne>Block signals are fairly stupid, they go red when anything is in the track region between them and the next signal
11:50<@peter1138>it's disconnected, of course it's green
11:50<FLHerne>There are no signals on the depot loop, so both ends are in the same signal block
11:51<FLHerne>Either put a signal on the loop, or use path signals before junctions
11:51<@peter1138>s/before junctions//
11:51<FLHerne>(using path signals before junctions is usually simpler)
11:52<FLHerne>peter1138: Some people get upset if you use path signals where they aren't needed
11:52<@peter1138>Yes. Some people voted Trump or for Brexit. Doesn't mean it's right.
11:52<FLHerne>(they're a bit ugly and supposedly slow the server down a bit more)
11:52<FLHerne>But yes
11:53<DannyK_>I don't really get why the 4th signal goes red and not the second one ... probably because I'm stupid lol
11:53<@peter1138>DannyK_, there's a direct loop of track, making it part of the block that the train is in.
11:55<@peter1138>77mile/125km ride, tomorrow promises to be shorter.
11:55<FLHerne>DannyK_: http://www.flherne.uk/files/signals.png
11:55<DannyK_>Still, don't get it, forgive me, I'm quite new to this ...
11:56<FLHerne>DannyK_: Path signals (the tall ones) are intelligent, they work out the route the train needs to follow and reserve only that
11:56<FLHerne>DannyK_: Block signals (the short ones you're using) are a bit stupid, they just check whether the block they're protecting has a train anywhere in it
11:57<FLHerne>When the train goes past the first signal you've circled, the block I've marked in red has a train in it
11:58<FLHerne>The other one you've circled is an entry to the same block, so it goes red
12:10<quiznilo>those pulsating gifs
12:11<quiznilo>no andy north yet?
12:12<quiznilo>DannyK_: you know what a 'block' of track is?
12:13<DannyK_>quiznilo: a section between two signals?
12:13<quiznilo>ya, mostly
12:14<quiznilo>it's a contiguous section of track not interrupted by a signal
12:14<quiznilo>can you see how that part of the track behind both red block signals constitutes a single block?
12:14<quiznilo>so, when one signal goes red, the other will go red
12:15<quiznilo>because the block becomes occupied by that train
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12:19<quiznilo>go into settings/Interface/Viewports and tick 'Show path reservations for tracks' to 'on'
12:19<quiznilo>you'll get visual feedback as to what is happening
12:20<@Alberth>quiznilo: doesn't work usefully for block signals
12:21<quiznilo>ah well
12:22<DannyK_>I wish there was a way to see how a track gets divided into blocks ...
12:22<@Alberth>DannyK_: is the section after the first signal, along the depot, upto the firfth signal (ie after the 4th signal) one block?
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12:23<DannyK_>Alberth: I think so
12:23<quiznilo>is it interrupted by a signal at any point?
12:23<quiznilo>along the path in front of the depot?
12:24<DannyK_>quiznilo: Does the depot's inbuilt signal count?
12:24<quiznilo>no
12:26<DannyK_>quiznilo: Then I don't think it is interrupted by any signal along the way up to the fourth signal
12:27<quiznilo>ya.. so then it's a block. Each color here marks a different block, and once a train enters that red block, all signals into that area will also go red https://www.flherne.uk/files/signals.png
12:27<@Alberth>for a block protected by block-signals, all ingoing signals become red when a train enters, right?
12:27<@Alberth>so when the train pass the 1st signal, the 4th signal (another entry to the same block) also goes red
12:28<@peter1138>heh, still on this :p
12:28<@Alberth>response-time is somewhat slow :)
12:29<quiznilo>signalling is fundamental
12:29<quiznilo>it's important to understand it
12:30<@Alberth>it's also quite complicated if you don't see the principle
12:31<quiznilo>it's very important, otherwise trains will crash
12:31<quiznilo>and people will die
12:32<@Alberth>nah, 2nd train won't get out the depot :)
12:32<@Alberth>and I have seen people making tracks dedicated for each train :D
12:33<@Alberth>an insane amount of track of course, but it works
12:34<DannyK_>Alberth: That's how I was years ago, before I got to give OpenTTD a try again yesterday and decided to understand signals once and for all ...
12:36<@Alberth>makes sense
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12:37<quiznilo>pronland continues to grow http://i.imgur.com/cGEyKE9.jpg and it's the weekend, so I should work some on it
12:39<DannyK_>It may sound ridiculous, but grasping the signalling is harder for me than programming haha
12:39<@Alberth>I have seen people that can program struggle before, so yep
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12:40<quiznilo>if I weren't lazy, I could make some pngs that quite clearly illustrate what a 'block' is, and how the signals work around them
12:41<@Alberth>I would expect some signalling guides to exist at the web, as well as YT, imho
12:41<DannyK_>quiznilo: I'm quite sure I'm not the only one who would've found them life-saving
12:44<@Alberth>the biggest mistake of a lot of guides is that they try to explain all signals, while the one-way path signals covers about 95% of your needs
12:44<@Alberth>the two-way path signal does the other 4.999%
12:44<quiznilo>I don't like one-way path signallers... there is something wrong with them
12:44<quiznilo>block signals forever
12:45<@Alberth>simple block signal covers about 80%
12:45<DannyK_>I don't understand why it is the 4th signal that turns red (along with the 1st one) and not the 5th one, past that loop ...
12:45<quiznilo>I use simple block signals 90% of the time, the rest of the time I use path signal
12:45<@Alberth>all the other weirdo combo signals do the other 20%
12:46<quiznilo>one the train enter a block, any block, all the block signals at the entrance to that block will turn red
12:46<@Alberth>the latter are also useful for the remaining 0.001% with path signals
12:46<quiznilo>they only allow 1 train at a time into a block, and as soon as a train enters, they all go red
12:46<@Alberth>hmm, let's make a set of pictures, one moment
12:47<quiznilo>the 5th signal is an entry signal for the following (empty) block, and stays green
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12:51<quiznilo>https://www.flherne.uk/files/signals.png this is the key image. every different color is a different block of track... once the train enters the 'red' block, all the entry signals into the red block turn red, first and fourth signal. That fifth signal will turn red if a train enters the orange block of track
12:57<@Alberth>http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/collision.png
12:59<@Alberth>left-most picture, train could be there, with green signal for next block, suppose that signal stays green when 2nd train runs through 1st signal like in the middle picture. You could end up with the right-most picture if the second train goes along the depot
13:00<@Alberth>if the signal before the 1st train does not turn red, the first train could now enter the same block, and you would have a collision
13:00<+glx>it's due to the crossing, even if it's an unreachable path
13:04<quiznilo>DannyK_: don't over-think it, it's simple, when a train is in a block, all block signals into that block will turn red
13:04<quiznilo>are we beating a dead horse?
13:06<quiznilo>anyone know about FIRS industries? Perhaps I should look at the source code.
13:06<@Alberth>then you need the correct revision :)
13:07<quiznilo>a 'psd' file is a graphics file?
13:08<@Alberth>yes, it's not a source file at least
13:08<@Alberth>hmm, likely you won't even find the source
13:09<@Alberth>it's all python generated
13:09<quiznilo>I'm looking at http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/show/psds
13:09<@Alberth>what version do you have?
13:09<quiznilo>whatever the in-game deal downloads
13:09<quiznilo>2.1.5
13:10<quiznilo>oh lordy... python
13:10<@Alberth>sheep_farm/sheep_farm.psd: Adobe Photoshop Image, 500 x 350, RGB, 3x 8-bit channels <-- yep, graphics file :)
13:11<@Alberth>let me see if I can get some source for you :)
13:11<quiznilo>it's here http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/entry/src/industries/arable_farm.py
13:12<quiznilo>industry = IndustryPrimaryOrganic
13:12<quiznilo>that's what I want
13:12<quiznilo>industry = IndustryPrimaryPort(id='bulk_terminal' aha! I knew it, it's a primary industry
13:15<@Alberth>http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/bulk_terminal.pnml
13:16<@Alberth>generated parameterized nml code for the bulk terminal
13:20<_dp_>that python-nml looks cool, does it exist as a separate module?
13:20<quiznilo>what do I use to view a pnml file?
13:21<quiznilo>more
13:24<@Alberth>any text editor
13:25<@Alberth>my *.pnml is not python, it's nml source code to be processed by cpp, the C pre-processor
13:26<@Alberth>although in the meantime, andy wrote code to generate nml by python, thus eliminating the cpp step
13:27<quiznilo>fancy
13:27<_dp_>I meant *.py files
13:27<@Alberth>right, well, no idea, have a look in the repo
13:28<_dp_>it seems to be part of firs right now
13:29<_dp_>but would be nice if it could be used for writing other grfs too
13:34<@Alberth>it's fully tailored to firs
13:34<quiznilo>it's a lot of work to make a program generic
13:34<@Alberth>if you write another industry set, bits may be re-usable
13:35<@Alberth>otherwise, it's probably just as fast to write your own template generator python code
13:35<@Alberth>ie use some templating library for python, hack a nml template, use python code to fill and generated all the templates, done
13:37<_dp_>ye, already did smth like that
13:38<_dp_>pretty basic though, mb I'll try to do smth more generic next time
13:38<@Alberth>it's going to be dedicated to one type of grf at best
13:38<@Alberth>unless you want to write pretty much a higher level nml language
13:39<_dp_>well, higher level nml is exactly what I'm looking for
13:39<@Alberth>you're welcome to write nml2 :p
13:40<_dp_>too much work :p
13:40<@Alberth>but higher level without closing off some directions is highly complicated
13:41<@Alberth>simple dedicated program beats the shit out of it :)
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27849 trunk/src/lang/korean.txt (2017-04-08 19:45:39 +0200 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from Eints:
13:45<@DorpsGek>korean: 4 changes by telk5093
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14:08<quiznilo>https://paste.pound-python.org/show/Xg6i2Uqa7gTv5DDnNKtD/ there we go... industries classified
14:10<quiznilo>also, I love the splash screen, there are a ton of good station confi ideas on it
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14:22<Non-ICE>\o/
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15:25<@peter1138>omg no real commits for 4 days, this game is dead!
15:28<Samu>buff ships
15:29<@peter1138>how's the caching going
15:29<_dp_>no real commits in two years if you ask me :p
15:29<Samu>i stopped, i suppose i won't go anywhere with it
15:30<Samu>im not a real programmer :(
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15:40<quiznilo>ships are OP, buff airports
15:57<@peter1138>Samu, pfft, giving up is for losers
16:13<quiznilo>anyone know if there is any difference between 'unload all' and 'transfer'?
16:13<quiznilo>o.O
16:14<quiznilo>all these hidden mysteries of ottd
16:15<@peter1138>yes, one unloads, and one transfers
16:16<_dp_>iirc only difference is that transfer gives fake income
16:18<_dp_>oh, and probably doesn't transfer cargo to industry even if station accepts it
16:18<FLHerne>quiznilo: They're equivalent unless there's an accepting industry next to the station
16:18<quiznilo>ah! I was wondering about that, what to do in that situation... makes sense
16:19<FLHerne>quiznilo: "Unload all" allows cargo to be delivered to surrounding industries/buildings, "transfer" keeps all the cargo on the station
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16:21<quiznilo>clever
16:21*_dp_ played with hotkeys for so long that don't even remember what orders actually do xD
16:22<quiznilo>hmm...
17:36<_dp_>http://imgur.com/a/S7hHO
17:52<@peter1138>uhh k
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18:42<_dp_>oh, almost missed codejam %)
18:42<_dp_>guess merging 1.7.0 can wait some more xD
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20:01<DannyK_>somebody still here?
20:14<FLHerne>DannyK_: Yes...
20:15<FLHerne>(not for very long, it's the morning now)
20:19*Mazur isn't.
20:35<DannyK_>FLHerne: could you please take a look at my openttd pic?
20:36<FLHerne>Which?
20:36<DannyK_>FLHerne: https://k30.imgup.net/blsig1ac11.png
20:36<FLHerne>| Don't ask to ask, just ask | is in the topic
20:37<FLHerne>Same reason as before
20:37<FLHerne>To a block signal, any area of track that's joined together and not separated by signals is a block
20:39<FLHerne>The area you've marked is all joined together (via the junctions at each ends) without going through a signal
20:39<DannyK_>FLHerne: So, if I create 3 or hundreds of parallel tracks, they will all light RED, right?
20:39<FLHerne>DannyK_: If you arrange them like that, yes
20:40<FLHerne>(and that's correct)
20:40<DannyK_>FLHerne: I think I'm starting to grasp it, finally!
20:40<FLHerne>Remember, in some circumstances (and depending on settings) trains can reverse at various places
20:41<FLHerne>Imagine a second train approaches the signal you've circled from the left
20:41<FLHerne>Hm, not quite, in your case
20:42<FLHerne>If a train with no length (:P) was allowed past that signal, it could reverse at the next signal (just past the junction) and then collide with the one that's already there
20:43<DannyK_>FLHerne: I get it
20:43<FLHerne>If that next signal was a tile further along, it could actually happen with a real train (the signal calculations don't care about that corner case)
20:44<FLHerne>If this sort of thing is causing you problems, try using path signals (the tall ones at the right of the signal toolbar)
20:44<FLHerne>They're a bit cleverer and take into account where trains are actually going
20:45<DannyK_>FLHerne: They work according to individual tracks, not blocks, right?
20:46<FLHerne>Yes
20:46<DannyK_>FLHerne: Depots also divide the tracks into blocks, right?
20:47<FLHerne>I don't think so
20:48<FLHerne>No, just tested
20:49<FLHerne>From the PoV of trains *leaving* the depot, they behave as if there was a path signal at the exit
20:49<FLHerne>Otherwise, they don't really affect signalling at all
20:50<FLHerne>(if there are multiple lines going in, they join on the tile in front of the depot, and form one block)
20:55*FLHerne -> sleep
20:55<FLHerne>Good morning...
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---Logclosed Sun Apr 09 00:00:00 2017