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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-04-09

---Logopened Sun Apr 09 00:00:00 2017
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00:24<snadge> ... lol @ 1.6gb soundfont version of original music
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06:00<quiznilo>there are terabyte sound fonts that ship on external HDs
06:02<quiznilo> gotta get those pedal sounds, and steel resonance just right
06:03<quiznilo>the dude left anyway... *sigh*
06:05<quiznilo>I need to figure out how to check when trains and cars are going to be available in newgfrs... it's 1909 and I need to know when I can transport steel at > 35mph
06:09<quiznilo>oh... no steel in FIRS, I forgot
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06:29<FLHerne>quiznilo: I don't think there's a way to check that in-game
06:29<FLHerne>quiznilo: Also, it's randomized by up to a few years, so you can't look it up precisely ;-)
06:29<quiznilo>yes, sadly. It's a moot point, because steel doesn't even exist in the game
06:30<FLHerne>Well, "Metal" in FIRS is pretty much the same thing (produced by steel works, can be turned into goods among other things)?
06:32<FLHerne>Also, yay, I finally have interconnected passenger services to every one of the 105 towns in my world
06:32<FLHerne>Time to refocus on freight
06:32<quiznilo>achievement unlocked
06:34<Eddi|zuHause>i can never focus on freight
06:34<Eddi|zuHause>passengers are just so overwhelming
06:34<FLHerne>There's a really handy patch that adds a multiplier for pax/mail volumes
06:35<quiznilo>nice network
06:35<quiznilo>passengers is more money if done right... no pulling around empty trains
06:35<Eddi|zuHause>but when i want to start a new game after a few years, i have to re-learn how to compile that patch in :p
06:36<Eddi|zuHause>earning money is not the problem
06:36<quiznilo>oh, I can help
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06:36<quiznilo>compile a patch in, that is
06:36<FLHerne>quiznilo: If you fiddle about with station-refitting, you can load freight both ways ;-)
06:36<Eddi|zuHause>the problem is that with cargodist, you really have to make an effort to transport ALL the passengers
06:36<Eddi|zuHause>can't have them piling up at stations
06:36<FLHerne>(although keeping it roughly balanced can be a pain)
06:37<quiznilo>that's more of a possibility with FIRS, two way freight trains
06:37<quiznilo>there is that
06:37<quiznilo>*adds another chemical ship*
06:38<Samu>eua is provoking a war with north korea... ww3 starting soon :(
06:39<Samu>who would have thought it would be trump and not hillary clinton
06:41<Eddi|zuHause>"The Rhine bridge in Wörth will be closed due to a demonstration against unnecessary closing of traffic infrastructure" how self-referential :p
06:41<Samu>oslo was attacked?
06:41<Samu>:( this europe is becoming 3rd world
07:16<_dp_>quiznilo, you can cheat date into future and check intro dates
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08:11<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i unify the holy roman empire and get like 8 achivements simultaneously...
08:13<@Alberth>a good days work :)
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09:07<Eddi|zuHause>more like half a year :p
09:07<Eddi|zuHause>or even more...
09:07<Eddi|zuHause>they released like 3 major version updates inbetween
09:08<Eddi|zuHause>almost a year, i think
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10:29<@peter1138>ooh a ufo
10:30<@peter1138>wonder how long it sticks around if there's no track
10:30<@peter1138>it landed on the sea
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10:52<_DannyK>Hello everyone
10:53<_DannyK>Could someone please take a look at my gif and let me know if I understand the concept?
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10:58<@Alberth>_DannyK: correct
10:59<_DannyK>Alberth: thank you
10:59<@Alberth>double direction is quite error prone, and doesn't have much throughput, it's simpler and better to use uni-directional signals if you can
11:00<@Alberth>in particular with path signals :)
11:00<_DannyK>Alberth: what are uni-directional signals? isn't that what I used on the gif?
11:01<@Alberth>uni-directional signals are signals that allow passage only from one side
11:01<_DannyK>Alberth: Ah, one way, I suppose?
11:01<@Alberth>the gif shows bi-directional signals, trains can go through from either side
11:01<_DannyK>Alberth: yes that's right
11:02<@Alberth>"one way" is used too for uni-directional :)
11:02<_DannyK>Alberth: I wish there was option to enable visualisation of blocks during track design ...
11:03<FLHerne>_DannyK: Just stop using block signals, then you don't have to worry about it ;-)
11:04<_DannyK>FLHerne: hi, how are you? got some sleep? :)
11:04<@Alberth>In general, a block is either a simple straight stretch between two signals, or it's a junction "surrounded" by signals
11:04<FLHerne>There are very few situations where block signals are actually better than path ones for achieving something
11:05<FLHerne>(and those tend to be weird magic signal-logic that you probably don't want to bother with currently)
11:05<_DannyK>FLHerne: I like to use them not only because they are from original TT, but also because I like to understand stuff thoroughly ...
11:05<FLHerne>_DannyK: Fair enough
11:05<@Alberth>so while the visualization may be of use in the beginning, you'll soon get the hang of it, and don't need it any more
11:06<FLHerne>I just get worried about the perception that OTTD signalling is hard/buggy/inflexible/whatever
11:06<Samu>it's hard
11:06<FLHerne>Which some people seem to get
11:06<@Alberth>/me picks whatever :p
11:06<_DannyK>FLHerne: I'd rather say, my mind is buggy/inflexible/whatever
11:06<FLHerne>_DannyK: When you've got standard block signals figured out, have a look at
11:07<Samu>block signals vs junctions = random stuff
11:07<@Alberth>euhm, don't :p it's pure magic :p
11:07<FLHerne>(taking the slightly odd block-size rules and doing something useful but very weird with them)
11:07<@Alberth>_DannyK: it might help to take this in small steps, do a limited number of signals and use them
11:08<@Alberth>you might run into some area where your signalling isn't enough, then extend
11:08<Samu>i don't know how the white/yellow strip signs work
11:09<@Alberth>if you try to do all signals at the same time, it's harder
11:09<@Alberth>Samu: until you join openttdcoop, you don't need to :)
11:09*_DannyK eating
11:11*FLHerne tends to throw away tidiness/efficiency of signalling away in favour of aesthetics anyway
11:28<_DannyK>Alberth: what did you mean by saying that double direction signals don't have much troughput?
11:34<@peter1138>Samu, ship path caching
11:35<@Alberth>_DannyK: assume a single track that is used in both directions.
11:36<_DannyK>Alberth: ah
11:36<@Alberth>once a train enters that track from one side, it must go all the way to the other side before a train from the other side can use it
11:36<@Alberth>double direction signals can also cause deadlock
11:37<@peter1138>We should've gone through with the plan and removed block signals :p
11:37<@Alberth>if you put a double signal in the middle of a single track, both sides are "safe", so trains can enter from both sides upto the signal position
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11:38<@Alberth>then however, neither train can go any further until the other train leaves
11:38<@Alberth>which never happens :p
11:39<@Alberth>wouldn't removal of block signals break all existing savegames ? :)
11:40<@Alberth>danny: in other words, double direction signal is quite useless
11:42<_DannyK>Alberth: I understand, thank you for explaining
11:45<@Alberth>double direction path signal fixes the deadlock problem by giving one side priority
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11:47<_DannyK>Alberth: didn't know, thanks
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11:48<@Alberth>double direction path signal is not better in throughput, so still rarely used
11:48<Samu>i'm not doing anything regarding ship path caching :(
11:48<@Alberth>standard solution is to make a dedicated track for each direction of traffic, and then you're done
11:49<@Alberth>(until you have so much traffic it won't fit at a single line :p )
11:49<_DannyK>Alberth: haha
11:49<_DannyK>Alberth: and then ... my exotic junction nightmare begins
11:50<@Alberth>if you play with breakdown enabled, you reach that point fairly quickly
11:50<@Alberth>junctions aren't very difficult wrt signalling, you just have a lot of tracks to deal with
11:51<@Alberth>uni-directional tracks are the simplest
11:51<@Alberth>simplest junction is to connect all incoming lines at one point, and from there go to all outgoing lines
11:52<@Alberth>works, but you get all traffic at that merged track, and it runs full quickly
11:52<@Alberth>so instead, for each incoming line, split traffic towards all outgoing directions
11:53<@Alberth>that scales much better, but had a lot of intermediate tracks
11:53<_DannyK>Alberth: and it took one sentence to clear it up ... right there at wiki ... "Any and all track tiles physically reachable from the signal up to the next signal on that track are counted as the same block, regardless if there are multiple branches."
11:54<@Alberth>it's even more than physically reachable
11:54<@Alberth>it just needs "connected"
11:54<@Alberth>ie an X cross is also 1 block
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11:55<@Alberth>even though a train can only go the the opposite end, and not to both orthogonal directions
11:58<@Alberth>but it's good that you try to improve it, we have no idea what part is hard to understand
11:59<_DannyK>Alberth: maybe it's just that this big stupidity of mine is hard to come by lol
12:00<@Alberth>don't think so, signalling is generally considered difficult for some reason
12:00<@Alberth>I can't read understand why, sadly
12:01<_DannyK>Alberth: probably because you quickly understood the principle behind it
12:02<_DannyK>Alberth: and also because I'm most likely overthinking it, instead of playing by trial and error
12:03<@Alberth>there isn't much to think, the game just refuses to let a train go through :p
12:04<@Alberth>if you don't belief the game, press "ignore red signal", and perhaps stuff crashes :p
12:05<_DannyK>Alberth: I only hope you are equipped with enough patience to help me understand all the confusions I'm going to have later on ... :)
12:05<@Alberth>I get my most crashes by changing signalling while trains use the track :p
12:06<_DannyK>Alberth: haha, so you learn the hard way if the new design works or not
12:07<@Alberth>oh, it always works, but for good performance, the signals need to be at the right spot, so after changing track layout, they must usually move
12:07<@Alberth>if you make an error while juggling signals, yep, trains do crash :p
12:08<@Alberth>but services cannot be stopped! :D
12:10<@Alberth>safest is to first reroute trains around the work area, then do big rework, and then let the trains use it
12:10<@Alberth>sometimes however, there is no space for rerouting
12:16<@Alberth>danny: just ignore all the combo-signals, they are obsolete, unless you want to do openttdcoop magic
12:17<@peter1138>path signals all the way
12:18<_DannyK>I've heard they are good, but also slow down the game, true or false?
12:18<@peter1138>and if we ever integrate signal restrictions then all that complex mumbo jumbo can be replaced with a little bit of code
12:18<@peter1138>everyone who ever said it slows down the game never provided any proof, as far as i know
12:19<@peter1138>and it's entirely possible that originally it meant slows down the flow of trains
12:20<@Alberth>next trains do wait until the block is empty, for competing tracks
12:21<@Alberth>likely, when the previous train leaves the block, its route becomes unfavorable due to being in use by that previous train
12:22<@Alberth>I don't understand why it doesn't make that decision earlier
12:25<@Alberth>in one game, I switched from path signals to combo signals, for this reason
12:25<@Alberth>track was too busy to have this delay
12:26<Samu>openttdcoop game requires 1.7.0-RC1
12:26<@Alberth>trunk works too
12:26<@Alberth>or do you mean in MP ?
12:28<@peter1138>hmm, probably ought to stock up the fridge with b33r
12:28<@Alberth>sounds like a good idea for the next long weekend
12:28<@peter1138>seems my legs don't want to work though :(
12:29<@Alberth>b33r promise doesn't help?
12:34<@peter1138>it's not just laziness, they ache quite a bit
12:34<@peter1138>it's this lovely weather we're having
12:34<@peter1138>it made me do 2 days of hard riding
12:44<supermop_home>you can try something like that to compare
12:44<supermop_home>and then saturate it with trains
12:46<_DannyK>supermop_home: thank you I will play with it
12:46<supermop_home>or at least see that for making a basic line or terminus, PBS is much easier to set up
12:47<supermop_home>in that instance, the top two tracks are pbs, the bottom two are block, with basic block on the line and entry/exit signals at the termini
12:47<supermop_home>the more junctions or crossovers you add, the worse the block line will perform, and you'll need to add flying junctions, etc sooner
12:49<supermop_home>if the line is simple enough block is only slightly worse than PBS, but as it gets busier or more complex, PBS helps more
12:50<supermop_home>if you aren't doing anything co-op like, like making circuits out of track, using pbs everywhere works great
12:51<supermop_home>also i cant believe that demonstration I built is profitable
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27850 /trunk/src/lang (korean.txt spanish_MX.txt) (2017-04-09 19:45:38 +0200 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from Eints:
13:45<@DorpsGek>korean: 3 changes by telk5093
13:45<@DorpsGek>spanish (mexican): 18 changes by Absay
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14:23<_dp_>hmm... 1.7 seems to work with 1.6.1 servers just fine
14:23<_dp_>are there really no changes at all?
14:24<@peter1138>It should not connect.
14:24<_dp_>I fooled version check
14:26<_dp_>normally it would desync pretty fast
14:26<_dp_>but nope, still going
14:26<@peter1138>I recommend reading the change log. That would pretty conclusively show you that there certainly were changes.
14:26<@peter1138>Why would there be a release with no changes...
14:28<_dp_>I'm reading it and so far don't see anything that affects game mechanics
14:31<_dp_>aside from newgrf stuff that I don't understand I see only two changes that can desync
14:31<_dp_>both extremly rare
14:32<LordAro>not everything is listed in the changelog
14:32<@peter1138>19:23 < _dp_> are there really no changes at all?
14:32<@peter1138>Is clearly false
14:32<LordAro>but... as long as you understand what you're doing is a Bad Thing(tm) and don't report any issues you have, i guess you're free to do whatever you want
14:33<_dp_>I'm thinking of adding small red "connect anyway" button somewhere
14:35<LordAro>there's no way that will ever be a thing
14:35<LordAro>nor should it be
14:38<_dp_>well, I'm not suggesting to add it to vanilla openttd ;)
14:38<LordAro>i'd suggest it would be a very bad idea to publish such a patch anywhere
14:38<@peter1138>I recommend just using 1.6.1 to connect to 1.6.1
14:43<_dp_>having multiple versions is a pain in the ass
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14:46<LordAro>_dp_: how?
14:49<_dp_>idk, I often find myself in a situation when I have multiple client none of which I can use
14:49<_dp_>because my working copy is broken, reserve is wrong version and vanilla is freaking useless
14:50<Eddi|zuHause>in that case it's probably better for everyone else if you stopped playing
14:50<_dp_>done that long ago :p
14:51<@peter1138>there's never any changes in it!
15:03<_dp_>ofc there are
15:03<_dp_>realistic acceleration by default
15:03<@peter1138>19:23 < _dp_> are there really no changes at all?
15:03<_dp_>clearly worth a major version! :p
15:04<_dp_>> _dp_> hmm... 1.7 seems to work with 1.6.1 servers just fine
15:06<@Rubidium>does 1.6.1 (without version check) work on 1.7 servers?
15:07<_dp_>Rubidium, yeah, I couldn't make it desync
15:07<_dp_>guess with trams or smth it will
15:07<frosch123>the same probably holds if you join a 1.0 server
15:07<_dp_>frosch123, nope, it usually desyncs pretty fast
15:08*Rubidium finds it interesting that a 1.7 savegame loads in 1.6
15:08<_dp_>for what I saw in changelog unless you do some tricky stuff with canals or secondary road types it's perfectly synced
15:09<frosch123>1.6/1.7 should desync on cdist
15:09<@peter1138>frosch123, it can't, there are no changes
15:09<frosch123>i remember changing the name
15:10<@peter1138>we should allow changing newgrfs in game too
15:10<@peter1138>that never causes issues
15:10<frosch123>Rubidium: they probably commented out savegame conversion
15:10<Wolf01>We should disable the version check and add a warning with "please don't do stuff which might cause desync"
15:11<@peter1138>Wolf01, but there was really no changes at all. except at least two. but no changes.
15:12<Wolf01>That's even better, you might craft specific warnings against the server version
15:13<@peter1138>_dp_, what did you have to do to make 1.6.1 connect to 1.7 servers then?
15:13<Wolf01>"Please don't do these 2 things: blah blah"
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15:14<_dp_>peter1138, actually in my case I didn't have to do anything, I just forgot to update rev.cpp :p
15:14<Wolf01>How do you forget to update one file?
15:15<_dp_>Wolf01, it's not part of codebase since it's generated automatically
15:15<_dp_>but I had that generation disabled ofc
15:15<frosch123>ok, so dp's 1.6 client was actually a 1.7 client
15:15<frosch123>he just changed the displayed version to 1.6
15:16<_dp_>frosch123, exactly
15:17<@peter1138>so a version which claims to be 1.6 but is actual 1.7 has no changes from 1.7. gotcha.
15:18<_dp_>peter1138, no changes from 1.8
15:18<Wolf01>Oh, there is 1.8 too?
15:19<Wolf01>Does it still have canals?
15:19<_dp_>dunno, just no changes from it :p
15:19<Wolf01>So canal removal will fail :(
15:20*peter1138 attempts to decipher r27758
15:20<@peter1138>although i guess it is a blank commit as there are no changes, really.
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15:24<@peter1138>i don't see how it's meant to work as TAB_SIZE_BITS is not changed and it's still in bits 11-15, i think
15:26<frosch123>TAB_SIZE only applies to the first 32 tabs
15:26<frosch123>then comes a gamescript tab, which is way larger, and then a newgrf tab which is even more larger
15:27<frosch123>see GetStringTab
15:27<@peter1138>i am :)
15:28<frosch123>the other important part ist that MakeStringId contains a "+" instead of a "|"
15:38<_dp_>oh, I know, I'll make it so it only ignores version if Ctrl is pressed
15:38<_dp_>nobody will ever find it xD
15:39<@peter1138>Put it on shift-click
15:39<@peter1138>To estimate the cost of joining with the wrong version
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15:57<@peter1138>Everyone is alive, apparently. Phew.
15:57<@peter1138>ok so grf debug output isn't changed
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16:04<Wolf01>Some say the breaks of the train was malfunctioning.
16:04<Wolf01>Breaks, sure
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16:42<Eddi|zuHause>when i hear "brakes malfunctioning" i always assume that the valve between engine and wagons wasn't opened, and they also didn't proerly check it
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16:43<Eddi|zuHause>then, obviously, when the driver hits the brakes, only the engine's brakes will engage, and none of the wagons' brakes
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17:28<+glx>I though trains had brakes on by default
17:29<Wolf01>But if you can't drop the pressure from the engine...
17:29<Wolf01>TBH, how they did stop at the last station with broken brakes?
17:30<Wolf01>I bet on human error
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17:44<quiznilo>what happened to all the fences around my track, it's all gone!
17:44<quiznilo>transparency opts look fine
17:45<Wolf01>Disabled full detail?
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>some newgrf you loaded?
17:45<quiznilo>possibly, but it was showing fences before
17:45<Wolf01>We succesfully removed something without knowing?
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>did you place something next to the tracks?
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>did you press X?
17:45<quiznilo>this is across the entire map, no fences
17:45<quiznilo>a multiplayer game
17:46<quiznilo>no, it isn't transparency or transparency opts, checked those
17:46<@peter1138>quiznilo, options -> full detail
17:46<@peter1138>well, spanner
17:46<quiznilo>that hides fences?
17:46<@peter1138>it hides details
17:46<quiznilo>I unticked that for performance reasons, and full animation
17:46<@peter1138>more than just fences
17:46<Wolf01>[23:45:02] <Wolf01> Disabled full detail? <-
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17:46<Eddi|zuHause>it hides sprites that have no gameplay relevance
17:46<quiznilo>but the fences are more than full detail
17:47<Eddi|zuHause>like... fences...
17:47<@peter1138>not really
17:47<quiznilo>Wolf01: ya, sorry
17:47<quiznilo>I was ignoring you
17:47<Wolf01>Eh, I know the feel
17:47<quiznilo>fences aren't a 'detail'!
17:47<quiznilo>they're important!
17:47<Eddi|zuHause>yes they are
17:47<Eddi|zuHause>and the effect on performance is probably negligible
17:48<quiznilo>you wouldn't say that if you were at risk of trying to connect to your opponent's track
17:48<quiznilo>the fences are how you can see at a glance if it's your track or your opponent's track
17:49<Wolf01>There are games other than coop ones?
17:49<Eddi|zuHause>but you can also find that out with the ? tool
17:49<@peter1138>20145 -> 201BF
17:49<@peter1138>E145 -> 2
17:49<quiznilo>'at a glance
17:50<quiznilo>pvp forever
17:50<quiznilo>ottd, eve, everywhere
17:51<quiznilo>I did learn today that you can't blow up your opponent's statues
17:51<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, it's a setting that just always was there
17:51<Eddi|zuHause>it's probably pointless, but nobody wants to touch it
17:51<Wolf01>I'm not really into pvp, I suck :P
17:52<quiznilo>carebear *cough*
17:52<Eddi|zuHause>i tried pvp in path of exile once... you always get paired with someone 20 levels above you, who instantly mauls you
17:53<quiznilo>that sucks
17:53<quiznilo>that's not fun pvp
17:53<Eddi|zuHause>and even if they were same level, they usually have better gear and still instantly maul you
17:56<quiznilo>well, I like the pvp that isn't like that
17:56<Wolf01>I got beaten down by people 20 levels below me
17:57<Wolf01>I have a *bad* memory of player killers in diablo 1
17:57<quiznilo>chess is pvp
17:58<@DorpsGek>Commit by peter1138 :: r27851 /trunk/src (newgrf_text.cpp newgrf_text.h) (2017-04-09 23:58:07 +0200 )
17:58<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#6555]: StringID truncation to 16 bits broke string remapping test.
17:59<@peter1138>another non-change
17:59<Wolf01>I told you to remove canals
18:02<Eddi|zuHause>are you lead coder/project manager now?
18:04<Wolf01>Nah, it should be just a suggestion
18:06<supermop_home>I wish there was a way to launch a game straight from SE
18:07<Wolf01>Scenario editor
18:07<quiznilo>show them a patch and they'll consider it :)
18:07<Eddi|zuHause>man it's been forever since i tried the SE
18:07<Wolf01>Changing game_mode from a running game without reloading could be fun
18:09<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: you can just treat it as loading the game... the demand was simply for a quick way to do that without going through the main menu
18:09<Wolf01>Nah, I was thinking more about a transition from SE to normal game without interruptions
18:10<Wolf01>Maybegoing back to SE too
18:10<Wolf01>But it should remove every player property
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18:10<supermop_home>either would be an improvement
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18:10<Eddi|zuHause>that may work, but you'd have to check a lot of corner cases to be sure
18:11<Wolf01>Reinitialize all the toolbars too
18:11<Eddi|zuHause>why would loading in SE remove player property?
18:11<Eddi|zuHause>there is a command for that
18:11<Wolf01>Uhm, yeah, true
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18:13<quiznilo>ottd should send email also
18:13<quiznilo>oh... what was that rule?
18:16<quiznilo>Zawinski's law
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18:30<FLHerne>quiznilo: Well, you could hook an email relay to the admin port
18:30<FLHerne>r/openttd have a bidirectional IRC bridge for the ingame chat
18:31<quiznilo>oh cool
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19:05<quiznilo>hmm... took a year for one of my trains to climb a hill
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19:54<Samu>nerf coal
19:54<Samu>less production perhaps
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---Logclosed Mon Apr 10 00:00:02 2017