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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-04-12

---Logopened Wed Apr 12 00:00:05 2017
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03:20<Wolf01>Miao
03:30<Arveen2>Mrow
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04:09<dihedral>good morning
04:10<crem>I second that.
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04:39<Wolf01>"If we would bundle tram set X with the program by default, we'd disturb that competition." Like Internet Explorer XD
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05:10<Arveen2>bundle ottd with that browser choice application
05:11<__ln__>did you mean: tram choice application
05:12<Wolf01>We should remove all vehicles too, IIRC you can already decide which baseset to use when you install the game, it shouldn't be hard to have a selection of the most valid sets to start playing
05:13<Wolf01>Curated by andy XD
05:14<Wolf01>I think Albert and Eddi are right, we need a sort of steam workshop in bananas with the ability to upvote the content, maybe an usage counter too
05:15<Wolf01>I could even give a hand
05:16<crem>But don't one have to make sure that add-ons are compatible?
05:16<Wolf01>That's why we need curators too
05:18<Arveen2>usage counter is nice. i love stats
05:19<Wolf01>The download count doesn't really count... I have stuff downloaded only because I tried one savegame once
05:20<Wolf01>We have the grfs list used by servers, it could be a good way to check what are the most used ones
05:22<Arveen2>data mining :D
05:23<Wolf01>Yeah, my scenario is the 6th most downloaded... I should update the link to point to a forum topic as I don't have anymore the website
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05:31<Wolf01>Cat
05:31<Arveen2>Catdog
05:31<andythenorth>workdog
05:31<andythenorth>bbl
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05:32<@peter1138>hi bye
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09:43<andythenorth>o/
09:44<@peter1138>yes
09:46<andythenorth>thought so
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09:58<supermop>yo
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09:59<@Alberth>o/
09:59<andythenorth>hi Alberth
10:01<andythenorth>ach, FIRS Extreme
10:02<andythenorth>is a mess
10:02<andythenorth>look at the chart :P http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#extreme
10:03<Wolf01>o/
10:04<@Alberth>hi hi
10:04<@Alberth>looks messy indeed, what's the problem?
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10:05<ST2>should be called FIRS Spaghetti, instead of Extreme - but looks good for me :)
10:06<@Alberth>ha, nice name, I was thinking "FIRS Everything", but Spaghetti is nicer
10:07<Wolf01>Try to untangle it, if you manage to do it then it's a valid map
10:07<andythenorth>specifically the role of Chemicals and Manufacturing Supplies are…blah
10:07<andythenorth>they’re under-supplied and tedious
10:07<@Alberth>nah, just let BB tell you what to do
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10:07*andythenorth considers starting with a clean white sheet of paper
10:07<@Alberth>you're not trying to make it playable are you?
10:07<andythenorth>I’m wondering if it could have been done better :P
10:08<andythenorth>why ‘fibre crops’ but not ‘salt’?
10:08<andythenorth>why ‘wool’, but not ‘vehicles’?
10:08<@Alberth>hysteric raisons
10:08<andythenorth>yes
10:08<andythenorth>also, somewhat, industries I wanted to draw
10:09<andythenorth>Sugar Beet is definitely only there because I wanted to draw the beet factory
10:09<ST2>dnt change it - currently BTPro has 2 servers using FIRS Extreme and it's funny to see the "brain knots" on new players ^^
10:09<@Alberth>fair enough :)
10:09<andythenorth>this is a classic ‘swallowed a spider’ problem
10:09<andythenorth>I want to adjust the fertiliser plant to have a second input
10:10<andythenorth>salt maybe
10:10<andythenorth>but then everything else makes no sense
10:10<@Alberth>it didn't already :p
10:11<andythenorth>salt is one of the world’s major cargos
10:11<andythenorth>historically, and still now
10:11<andythenorth>also it would be white, which is different to other colours
10:11<@Alberth>just add it, or is there no room?
10:11<andythenorth>there’s room
10:11<andythenorth>salt mine -> salt?
10:12<@Alberth>seems simple-ish
10:12<andythenorth>salt -> fertiliser plant -> fmsp and ensp (explosives)
10:12<@Alberth>doesn't it get harvested from evaporating salt water as well?
10:12<andythenorth>yes
10:12<andythenorth>salt works -> salt?
10:12<andythenorth>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion_Salt_Works
10:13<@Alberth>either will work, but it may be nicely different graphically
10:13<andythenorth>salt -> chemical plant -> chemicals?
10:13<Wolf01>Also to food
10:13<andythenorth>salt -> chemical plant -> manufacturing supplies?
10:13<andythenorth>dunno
10:13<@Alberth>latter looks more feasible
10:14<andythenorth>bundling all chemicals together in Extreme was probably a mistake :)
10:14<Wolf01>I should do an economy by myself too
10:14<andythenorth>Wolf01: try and make a giant Extreme 2 :P
10:14<andythenorth>I’m not sure what the goal of it is really
10:15<@Alberth>there is none, just dumping al together
10:15<@Alberth>if you're lucky, there are transport options
10:15<Wolf01>[colour] powder->[colour] cubes->mixed products, mixed byproducts->consumer products
10:16<andythenorth>Wolf01: I do even consider that to some extent now :P
10:16<andythenorth>when making new economies
10:16<andythenorth>pipe is in steeltown just for cargo sprites
10:16<andythenorth>sulphur was quite appealing to add too, because bright yellow
10:16<supermop>andythenorth: pre 1600 or so you could have an economy where the only industrial scale cargo to be transported is "salt -> towns"
10:17<andythenorth>I know :P
10:17<andythenorth>I have considered a pre-industrial economy
10:17<andythenorth>but tbh, someone else could fork FIRS to do that
10:17<andythenorth>FIRS forks are now pretty proven
10:17<supermop>salt, maybe salt cod
10:17<Wolf01>I would like to do something like big pharma
10:17<@Alberth>or make an early economy
10:17<Wolf01>But game doesn't support that :(
10:17<andythenorth>supermop: I considered adding saltfish stuff for scandinavia
10:18<supermop>Wolf01: fine chemicals are neat, but the pills might be a bit boring to transport
10:18<Wolf01>One by one
10:18<@Alberth>yeti size
10:18<Wolf01>To package factory
10:18<@Alberth>in all colours
10:18<Wolf01>Yep
10:19<supermop>Alberth: i guess the problem is when you get to 2100 and are bored of still running the same salt, fish, and wood in your little haneseatic league
10:19<andythenorth>coal tar -> paracetamol -> towns
10:19<@Alberth>you do? I usually start in 1920-1930, and don't even make 2000, generally
10:20<@Alberth>at some point, most industries are connected, and it's done for me
10:20<Wolf01>Me too... I usually get bored way before 2000
10:20<supermop>that will really give the various english translators some work, andythenorth
10:20<Wolf01>But I start in 1850 with horses and FF to ~1900
10:20<@Alberth>it would need a GS to stirr things up, I guess
10:20<andythenorth>new GS :P
10:20<supermop>aus calls it something else entirely from you or me
10:21<supermop>Alberth: i rarely play more than 30 years
10:21<@Alberth>have a bigger map :p
10:21<@Alberth>or more dense industries :p
10:22<supermop>but i guess the most salient property of 'pre-industrial' economies is that they are pre-industrial
10:22<andythenorth>one would think so :P
10:22<supermop>that is, fundamentally different, cargoes etc
10:22<andythenorth>hmm
10:22<andythenorth>ach, I should just finish what I have and do a FIRS 3 :)
10:23<andythenorth>the rest can wait until v4 or so
10:23<supermop>which suggests that it might be interesting to play through that paradigm shift, which occurred in different ways and times in different areas
10:24<@Alberth>but you need industries that really do close
10:24<@Alberth>even if you serve them
10:24<andythenorth>@calc 5488 - 5052
10:24<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 436
10:24<andythenorth>lots of revs since last FIRS release
10:25<supermop>"i send salt on barges to a ship, and the ship brings back cloth' to 'i send specialized electronics by air and receive metal alloys by electric train'
10:25<andythenorth>to do it well, needs more than 32 cargos imho
10:26<supermop>could make for more interesting game than "i send iron ore by slow train' to 'i send more iron ore by a faster train'
10:26<andythenorth>with ability to deprecate / introduce cargos
10:27<supermop>as is now whether you play 20 or 1000 years, you basically do A->B, with capacity growing every decade until new vehicles run out
10:28<supermop>maybe you could do a->b for 50 years but then suddenly you are trying to do C<-D and X->Y->Z by totally new means
10:28<@Alberth>increasing transport is simple upgrading
10:29<@Alberth>openttd supports that out of the box
10:29<supermop>Alberth: yeah
10:29<supermop>changing what you need to transport over time is what would be new
10:29<@Alberth>yes
10:30<@Alberth>or change location of resources
10:30<@Alberth>like the oil in temperate
10:31<andythenorth>GS :P
10:31<andythenorth>newgrf is no good at it
10:31<@Alberth>it can be done, it fully controls closing and opening new industries
10:33<@Alberth>ie suppose you run one economy for 50 years, then switch off the probabilities, and turn on probabilities of industries of another economy
10:33<@Alberth>it also needs closing down of "old" industries, but that could be coded in NewGRF too, I think
10:34<andythenorth>newgrf can do it
10:34<andythenorth>it’s just not able to provide any messages, or make any nice judgements about the state of the map
10:35<@Alberth>yep, it's very disruptive :)
10:35<@peter1138>probably meant to be game-script type stuff?
10:36<@Alberth>until you can tell industries what to do, it doesn't quite work
10:37<@peter1138>sure
10:37<@peter1138>i've never looked into what GS is capable of
10:38<@Alberth>newgrf has no access point for giving information about such things to industries
10:39<supermop>i guess you also need something like mines running out
10:39<@Alberth>it's still NewGRF decides all, except it's generally clueless due to lack of information, and it also has no means to obtain that global information
10:39<supermop>otherwise if you build a salt mine empire in 1000 CE most of the mines will never close
10:40<supermop>unless gs somehow makes salt no longer profitable to transport at a certain time
10:40<supermop>which doesn't really make sense
10:40<@Alberth>that's another point, gs can't control prices of transport
10:40<supermop>salt still earns money, just not enough to fight wars over
10:41<supermop>thats another problem with early transport
10:42<supermop>if it is some how profitable to carry passengers from town to town in a horse carriage in 1500, it will still be profitable in 2500
10:42<supermop>no market forces
10:42<@Alberth>I did think of setting transport prices based on source/destinations, and perhaps players
10:42<@Alberth>not so much based on type of cargo and year, but it could make sense
10:42<supermop>some smarter type of inflation could work
10:42<supermop>?
10:43<supermop>separate running costs into two parts, one could grow with inflation, the other is static?
10:43<@Alberth>making it scriptable has a much larger use
10:44<andythenorth>supply / demand economy
10:44<supermop>so the steam locomotive is 'cheaper' to run when the wages for the three men in the cab are low
10:44<andythenorth>one town pays more than another
10:44<@Alberth>ie everything you do in the program is mostly global for the world, which means gameplay is the same everywhere on the map
10:46<@Alberth>that makes it eg feasible to play at 4096x4096, and use only 256x256 of that
10:47<@Alberth>and it doesn't matter where that 256x256 is
10:48<@Alberth>maybe the script should also be allowed to control the running cost factor or so
10:48<@Alberth>based on company
10:49<@Alberth>and probably engine, although then it becomes newgrf specific very quickly
10:49<Wolf01>https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/avGRgbO_460s.jpg AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
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11:05<@peter1138>Alberth, maybe that isn't a problem though
11:07<supermop>i guess i envision spilting running cost into parts, A, B, maybe C, and then each vehicle is defined as having a certain amount of each
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11:08<supermop>then game or GS or newgrf could globally say, increase part A by 2% per year
11:08<supermop>or decrease part B by 1%
11:09<supermop>or randomly fluctuate
11:09<supermop>maybe an old locomotive has 1000 units of A and 20 of B
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11:10<supermop>but in 1860, A=1 and b=50
11:11<supermop>maybe in 1960, A=10 and b=60
11:11<supermop>idk
11:12<supermop>a boring newgrf GS would keep all parts static, or increase them uniformly, and an exotic one would vary them by odd amounts for obscure reasons
11:13<supermop>basically trying to solve the (maybe not real problem) of a horse and wagon is much cheaper to run than a truck in 1900, but is much more expensive to run than a truck in 2000
11:14<supermop>same with sailboats vs steamships, or steam locomotives vs diesels
11:15<supermop>or a diesel bus vs a super-capacitor bus
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11:19<Wolf01>A/B/C => Fuel cost/spare parts/maintainance guys
11:20<Wolf01>Maybe fees too XD
11:20<supermop>Wolf01: i was thinking you'd do Mechanical/labor
11:20<supermop>with fuel as C
11:21<supermop>fuel probably goes slowly down over time (diesel would be pretty expensive in 0CE) while labor goes up
11:22<supermop>mechanical could be static, or go slowly down or up
11:23<supermop>maybe in 1940 the Diesel has more mechanical cost, similar fuel cost, and less labor costs than the steam locomotive
11:24<supermop>but over the next 20 years, labor get proportionally more expensive, so even if the steam loco is mechanically simpler than the diesel, it cost more because it takes more people to run it
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11:30<supermop>you don't really even need to name the parts though
11:30<supermop>or even separate them
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11:54<Wolf01>Quak
11:55<frosch123>hoin
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27854 /trunk/src/lang (czech.txt spanish.txt) (2017-04-12 19:45:37 +0200 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from Eints:
13:45<@DorpsGek>spanish: 30 changes by SilverSurferZzZ
13:45<@DorpsGek>czech: 18 changes by djst
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14:06<quiznilo>'compatible addons'
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14:06<quiznilo>perhaps some kind of dependency system
14:07<quiznilo>with blockers
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14:40<andythenorth>o/
14:40<@Alberth>o/
14:42<supermop>yo
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15:48<andythenorth>is quiet
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15:53<@Alberth>nn
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15:57<Wolf01>High on ginger ale again wooooo!!!
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16:47<supermop>Wolf01: how do you manage that
16:47<Wolf01>Who? What?
16:50<supermop>ginger ale
16:51<Wolf01>I like it
16:53<supermop>me too
16:55<supermop>nice when i am queezy
16:55<supermop>queasy?
16:56<Wolf01>The nice thing is that I don't even like ginger, but I always eat it when I find it in various forms
16:56<andythenorth>also bed
16:56<Wolf01>nn
16:56<andythenorth>bye
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16:58<supermop>we have candied ginger
16:58<Wolf01>Yeah, I have a packet of that too
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17:31<@peter1138>evening
17:33<Wolf01>o/
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18:24<Wolf01>'night
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18:39<quiznilo>ginger in very small amounts in some foods is very, very good
18:39<quiznilo>lots of people use way too much of it
18:39<quiznilo>I'm like ginger ale though, and love ginger candies and cookies
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20:21<supermop_home>you are like ginger ale, quiznilo?
20:22<quiznilo>yeah, whatever I meant to say
20:23<supermop_home>I buy a little person shaped root of it every now and then, but never manage to use it all up
20:24<supermop_home>very good in certain soups that I or my wife make though
20:24<supermop_home>and pretty cheap to buy here
20:24<supermop_home>for ginger ale, I prefer ginger beer
20:24<supermop_home>ideally the cloudy kind
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21:03<supermop_home>need to buy some gochujang and fancy kimchi
21:03<V453000>get rekt?
21:03<supermop_home>V453000for making Korean micheladas with OB or Hite beer
21:04<supermop_home>also was looking at those old aus renders this afternoon
21:07<V453000>wot
21:07<V453000>:)
21:08<V453000>aus stuff was cute but am spoilt with factorio now
21:08<supermop_home>i figure when it comes to micheladas - you are starting with a crappy beer, so put as much spicy weird stuff in there as you can
21:08<supermop_home>ha
21:09<supermop_home>I am 'spoilt' with a real job rather than working holiday freelance stuff
21:10<supermop_home>but it was kind of fun to have a whatever schedule to design whatever I could
21:10<V453000>well factorio basically is a real working holiday XD
21:10<supermop_home>had an interview for a much more corporate firm today
21:11<supermop_home>place I've been at the last year+ is small and super disorganized
21:11<supermop_home>but sometimes fun
21:11<supermop_home>not going to be as fun as your job though
21:14<V453000>well, making game graphics is a lot of hard work that aren't apparent from the outside :)
21:14<supermop_home>I don't doubt that it is hard
21:15<V453000>fun is often overriden by hard for some people :)
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22:57<lclpsoz>Hello?
22:57<V453000>yo?
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22:59<V453000>by
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---Logclosed Thu Apr 13 00:00:06 2017