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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-04-27

---Logopened Thu Apr 27 00:00:26 2017
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03:28<@Alberth>moin
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03:59<@peter1138>hi
04:07<crem>hi
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04:55<Wolf01>Moin
04:55<__ln__>i wasn't expecting you for another 27 minutes
04:56<Wolf01>Eh salesman of worwerk from hell decided is a good thing to awake the wolf
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14:26<andythenorth>o/
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14:29<Arveen>\o/
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14:39<LordAro>o|
14:44<supermop_>_o
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17:20<nekomaster>So I have my Canada heightmap done, sorta
17:20<nekomaster>but its at 8192x8192 resolution
17:20<nekomaster>and while at that resolution I have nice shore lines, if I downsize it I loose the shore lines and end up with two tile high cliff's
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17:23<Cubey>You mean if you pick 4096x4096 in game, or if you downscale it in GIMP or whatever?
17:23<Cubey>Or both?
17:24<nekomaster>Yeah, is there some way to downsize in GIMP or some other program and keep the shore lines. I can give you examples of what I mean
17:24<Cubey>I mean, if you think about a heightmap as a 3D surface
17:24<Cubey>Then it makes sense that your coasts become steeper when you shrink the image
17:25<nekomaster>yeah but at 8K I have long coasts which I dont really want either, but at 4K the shores become too steep with no step
17:25<Cubey>Like let's say your map has x, y, and z dimensions, where the brightness of the pixel denotes the z value
17:25<nekomaster>though I could always just turn down the brightness I would like a bit of a shoreline
17:25<Cubey>If you shrink the x and y coordinates by 50%, you also have to shrink the z by 50%
17:26<Cubey>When you generate a game from a heightmap, you have to pick the maximum map height...the default is 16 I think? I'm not sure
17:26<nekomaster>I believe the default is 16
17:26<Cubey>Have you experimented with smoothing the image? For example applying a gaussian blur to the whole thing
17:27<Cubey>If you have weird artifacts on the coasts that you don't like
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17:27<nekomaster>No, but I was using Lanzcos resizing in irfan view
17:28<Cubey>Lanczos might induce ringing artifacts
17:28<nekomaster>ringing?
17:29<Cubey>Sharper filters like lanczos are best for upscaling, because they make a less blurry image
17:29<nekomaster>ahh
17:29<Cubey>But for downscaling that isn't necessarily the case
17:30<Cubey>When you are upscaling, you wish you had more detail in the image than you actually do, so you use a filter that makes more complex decisions to trick the viewer's eye into thinking the upscaled image is still sharp
17:30<Cubey>When you are downscaling you have more detail than you need, and you need to throw away some
17:30<Cubey>But also heightmaps are different from images and they also get mangled by OpenTTD, because it can only depict one type of slope
17:30<nekomaster>btw I can give you a dropbox link to show the map I have, maybe someone with better skills then I do can figure out how to keep some of hte shore line
17:31<nekomaster>https://www.dropbox.com/s/yrf4x45a7zt38uj/CANADA%208192%20x%208192%20GREEN.png?dl=0
17:31<Cubey>Ok let's take a look at this
17:31<nekomaster>Though if its not possible, then I'll just have the map at 1 tile above sea level
17:33<Cubey>What do you mean by "long" coasts?
17:33<nekomaster>Oh and another problem I've had while trying to resize, is that some rivers end up closing up
17:33<Cubey>Yeah, you are probably going to have to manually clean those up
17:33<Cubey>Because of that slope problem I'm talking about
17:33<nekomaster>yeah
17:34<nekomaster>I wonder if its even worth the trouble to make a shoreline
17:35<Cubey>Hey this looks pretty good
17:36<nekomaster>I tried to add most of the major lakes and rivers and put some in area's where water is sparse
17:36<nekomaster>to keep things interesting
17:37<Cubey>The west coast is really messy (because the heightmap is so noisy around there with all the mountains), so some smoothing might help that
17:37<Cubey>And I think you can fix the coastal flats being one step too high by playing with the levels tool or curves tool a little more
17:38<nekomaster>thing is I already set the levels, the brightness goes up by 5 steps from 0 for each tile
17:38<Cubey>Smoothing and leveling will probably close off some of the rivers, but you can prevent that to some extent by making a layer on top of the image of just the water
17:38<Cubey>And leaving the water alone
17:38<nekomaster>Oh yeah, I totally forgot about htat
17:38<nekomaster>just use the color select tool before I smooth out things and then fill the selection with black for the water
17:39<Cubey>Like once you have the water the way you want it, select all the solid black pixels and paste them into a new layer that you don't change anymore
17:39<Cubey>Yeah exactly
17:39<nekomaster>that way it'll keep all of the water ways open
17:39<Cubey>But some of them may still get closed off when the game generates the map, because of the slopes
17:39<nekomaster>yeah
17:39<Cubey>So you will still have to check it and manually dig them out in the scenario editor
17:39<nekomaster>Thing is though theres so many water ways
17:40<Cubey>Surprisingly they all seem to be OK as it is right now, so keeping the water layer static might just work
17:40<Cubey>I can even see little islands in like the hudson river and st lawrence river that are properly surrounded by water
17:41<nekomaster>yeah, I'm not too too worried about loosing tiny islands
17:42<Cubey>I'm just saying that islands would be a place you'd expect to see the waterways closing up when the map generates
17:42<Cubey>Because the transition from sea-level to ground level might be too steep for the openttd grid
17:42<Cubey>But that seems not to be the case here, so that's a good sign
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17:46<nekomaster>if anything though, I wonder what people prefer, having a bit of a shore line/beach, or just having the lowest ground across the map at 1 tile above the sea
17:47<Cubey>The random map generator and most scenarios I've seen tend to have like, coastal plains at height level 1
17:48<nekomaster>ahh
17:48<nekomaster>maybe I should do that to make things simpler for people
17:48<nekomaster>I did say before I wanted this to be fun, not super realistic
17:48<Cubey>I finally got GIMP open and I can see what you mean about the color steps
17:48<Cubey>Like the darkest shade is 5 steps darker than the second darkest
17:49<nekomaster>yeah
17:49<Cubey>It looks like you only have about 13 or 14 shades in use
17:49<Cubey>So you should generate the map with max height 14 I guess. Or maybe someone knows if that is zero indexed or whatever
17:49<ugu>what projection is that?
17:50<nekomaster>its been stretched
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17:51<Cubey>Smoothing will just blend all these distinct shades together, so maybe that will make things worse... I'm gonna mess around with it and see
17:51<nekomaster>alright
17:51<nekomaster>also I would like to make an even smaller version at 2048x2048 while keeping the water ways
17:52<nekomaster>I'd like to make two scenarios, one at 2048x2048 for most peole, and at 4092x4092 for the crazy people that want to try and make a realistic railroad
17:52<Cubey>Putting the waterways in a separate layer will probably help with that
17:57<Cubey>Wait on a closer look I just realized you specifically defined two brightness layers between the plains and the water
17:57<Cubey>Like your 8192x8192 image has coasts two or three pixels wide around the entire landmass
17:57<nekomaster>yeah
17:58<nekomaster>thats what I was talking about but I might scrap that idea
17:58<Cubey>I thought it was like a mystery why that was happening
17:58<nekomaster>For example, I believe each level is 50 meters
17:59<nekomaster>and Toronto, Ontario, is only 76 meters above sea level
17:59<Cubey>Most of the densely populated places on Earth would be at lvl1 in openttd maps
18:00<nekomaster>ahh
18:00<nekomaster>so it probably would be best if I scrapped the beach/shoreline idea then
18:00<nekomaster>its only really useful when trying to recreate maps from games that have that kind of thing
18:03<Cubey>Well I guess it's a creative choice that's up to you
18:03<Cubey>I was just misunderstanding before, I thought you didn't want it and were looking for a way to get rid of it
18:03<nekomaster>Well I might prefer to go down the route of "its my mod for my own thing"
18:03<nekomaster>but I also want to share it with people
18:03<nekomaster>and I want people to have fun with it
18:04<nekomaster>also having a two step/level coast everywhere might make bridges more expensive when crossing rivers
18:04<Cubey>I did try putting the water in a separate layer, downscaling, and then smoothing the land layer
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18:04<Cubey>And it came out OK, not too many problems with waterways closing up
18:05<Cubey>A lot of your rivers will still have 2 and 3 high banks because they are cutting through higher ground
18:05<Cubey>I think that's totally Ok though. A lot of rivers in north america do have very high and steep banks!
18:06<nekomaster>yeah
18:07<nekomaster>perhaps you could send me what you got, perhaps through a forum PM if you dont have dropbox or one drive
18:07<nekomaster>or too lazy to put it up somewhere else
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18:16<nekomaster>Ungh, what is with these netsplits
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18:20<nekomaster>hmm
18:20<nekomaster>one thing that sucks is that Montreal doesnt get enough space to have Mount Royal
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---Logclosed Fri Apr 28 00:00:27 2017