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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-04-30

---Logopened Sun Apr 30 00:00:30 2017
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00:51<quiznilo>this is a new one... ottd opponent appears to be transporting livestock in zeppelins
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02:13<andythenorth>o/
02:31<quiznilo>mornin' andy... I'm out
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02:41<@Alberth>o/
02:45<andythenorth>hi Alberth
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03:38<andythenorth>can’t think how to shorten this name: http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/industries.html#fertiliser_and_explosives_plant
03:39<@Alberth>make a parameter "boring" or "fun", and rename to "fertilizer plant" resp "explosives plant" :p
03:40<@Alberth>if you produce one cargo more than the other, the choice is easy
03:42<@Alberth>either cargo is a bit fishy, looking at the cargo flow
03:43<@Alberth>fertilizer fits better with the other cargos imho, explosives is odd
03:44<@Alberth>could work for a mining economy though
03:44<andythenorth>BOOM
03:44<@Alberth>make a MAYHEM economy, aimed at coop :p
03:45<@Alberth>I am quite not sure bulk terminal makes sense, imho
03:46<@Alberth>"clay" ?
03:46<@Alberth>make a drag-site on water that produces clay
03:48<andythenorth>I should rename it kaolin
03:48<andythenorth>too much RL intervening :P
04:07<@Alberth>:)
04:09<andythenorth>could drop clay maybe
05:07<@Alberth>bbl
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06:29<Wolf01>Moin
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07:23<Wolf01>Shit V453000, do you guys even get rest?
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08:05<andythenorth>so
08:06<frosch123>mola
08:06<andythenorth>such chores to do
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08:12<Wolf01>o/
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08:41<Wolf01>o/
08:41<@Alberth>hi hi
08:41<supermop>andythenorth: http://imgur.com/a/RYBfr
08:42<supermop>this cant be a good idea, but here i am
08:42<supermop>need to figure out how to composite sprites for truck bodies
08:43<supermop>also, what are the disadvantages of curtain-sided trucks
08:44<frosch123>django could suddenly open them
08:46<supermop>they vanilla goods trucks have ridges down the side and i never really could tell if they were meant to be curtain sided or part of the framing of the truck
08:46<supermop>though i may as well try drawing loading sprites so...
09:02<Wolf01>Pfff I was looking on the debug switches to re-enable the pollution layer :|
09:02<Wolf01>I just noticed that layers now have nice buttons on the minimap
09:03<Wolf01>Still not possible to enable them on the actual minimap but only on the large map
09:08<frosch123>the new "q" behaviour confuses me
09:08<Wolf01>Yes, a bit, but I got used and now I really like it
09:09<Wolf01>Specially in sandbox mode
09:12<andythenorth>supermop: what kind of truck are curtain-side? o_O
09:12<andythenorth>box or flat?
09:12<andythenorth>that is why I never included them
09:12<andythenorth>also realisms
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09:47<__ln__>two finns and a german on the podium
09:50<frosch123>who is winning?
09:50<__ln__>bottas won, vettel second
09:51<LordAro>woah spoilers
09:52<frosch123>i thought it would be something more violent
09:55<__ln__>LordAro: yes, spoilers in each car
09:55<LordAro>ayy
10:07<supermop>andy a curtain sider is a curtain sider
10:10<frosch123>Wolf01: somehow the "made in" tooltip is only shown for not-hand-craftable stuff
10:10<frosch123>no idea whether it has always been like that
10:18<@peter1138>max speed 48.3 mph, oo er
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11:03<Wolf01>frosch123, I think that where to make other stuff is already inferred from the number of materials required, up to 2, up to 4 and more than 4
11:32<supermop>can i paint part of a truck cc blue and then use some cc magic to make it other colors in some cases?
11:38<andythenorth>supermop: 'depends’
11:38<andythenorth>but yes
11:41<supermop>this open truck, idk if the 'open' part whatever it's called should be cc or grey or wood
11:41<supermop>or 2cc
11:44<andythenorth>2cc
11:44<andythenorth>then the player chooses
11:45<supermop>im using the same bodies for all generations
11:45<andythenorth>yup[
11:45<supermop>although it would be nice to add fancier 2cc stripes in later generations
11:46*andythenorth wonders
11:46<andythenorth>why is train length display in depot not just an int?
11:46<andythenorth>and could I have a setting so it’s an int?
11:46<supermop>are containers really carried on regular flatbeds, or is it a different type of frame?
11:46<andythenorth>both
11:47<supermop>i recall it looking more like a hollow frame, without much decking
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11:47<andythenorth>skeletal trailers where containers are common
11:47<andythenorth>otherwise flat or dropside
11:48<supermop>also - how to take containers off a trolley truck without getting 1500V on the lift?
11:48<supermop>i guess it would just short out
11:52<andythenorth>third rail
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11:52<supermop>battery?
11:53<supermop>pull off to side on trolley poles?
11:53<supermop>think pallets on flatbe is better then
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12:02*andythenorth has to have integer length trains, or at least x.5
12:02<andythenorth>anything else is all wrong
12:03<andythenorth>but that means I have to rework most of Iron Horse :|
12:07<frosch123>supermop: you can do about everything with recoloring
12:08<frosch123>andythenorth: why do you care, are you turning into v?
12:08<andythenorth>yes
12:08<andythenorth>I thought the same
12:09<frosch123>v chained 2 or 3 wagons into a single articulated wagon, so that all wagons and engines have length 1 tile
12:09<andythenorth>I am considering it
12:09<andythenorth>or drop realism
12:11<andythenorth>.9 and .1 are particularly irritating
12:11<andythenorth>I am seriously considering patching locally to ‘eliminate’ the issue
12:11<andythenorth>ceil(length)
12:11<supermop>what is the need for integer trains?
12:13<Wolf01>Why not just make consists of wagons with randomized liveries and fixed length (4 tiles, 8 tiles)?
12:13<Eddi|zuHause>i have a totally different issue with that display
12:13<andythenorth>Wolf01: I considered fixed length trains
12:13<Eddi|zuHause>that it doesn't properly display 1/16th units
12:13<andythenorth>everyone uses TL 5, right?
12:13<andythenorth>like coop?
12:13<Wolf01>Usually, yes
12:13<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think so :p
12:13<Wolf01>5 or 7
12:14<Eddi|zuHause>doesn't coop use 3?
12:14<Eddi|zuHause>my freight trains often come in length 10 or 12
12:14<andythenorth>2 x TL 5
12:14<Wolf01>Attach 2 consists together
12:14<andythenorth>with or without engine? o_O
12:14<andythenorth>maybe you shouldn’t choose engine, that’s unnecessary
12:14<supermop>i like 4-5 for passengers and 3 for branch freight, 8 for main freight
12:15<andythenorth>you just buy ‘coal train’ or whatever
12:15<andythenorth>much simpler
12:15<supermop>andythenorth: also add in app purchases
12:15<Eddi|zuHause>that would annoy the crap out of me
12:15<andythenorth>hmm
12:15<Wolf01>andythenorth, yeah, that would "fix" the problem of using fast pax engine with freight wagons and trying to figure out why it doesn't go uphill with a full load of steel
12:15<andythenorth>I also considered a magic last vehicle
12:16<andythenorth>last vehicle could fake its length to make the train integer length
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>you mean a caboose?
12:16<quiznilo>heavyweight mail car $$
12:16<andythenorth>just whatever is last
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>i honestly don't understand your problem
12:16<supermop>tbh i never care if i have all 4.9 TL trains at my 5 tile station
12:16<Wolf01>Ahaha, just make 8 fake cabeese, 1/8, 2/8, 3/8... and use the one which fill the integer
12:16<supermop>Eddi|zuHause same here
12:17<quiznilo>I'm assuming 'cabeese' is the plural of 'caboose'
12:17<supermop>whats the problem with a 4.8 length train?
12:17<andythenorth>everything
12:17<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: if a wagon is 0.6, and the display in the depot is 4.2, i know at a glance that i can fit another wagon in
12:17<supermop>all i need to know is that i need a station at least that long
12:17<Eddi|zuHause>if it's 4.8 i can't
12:18<Wolf01>What about a "tile lenght indicator" in the depot window instead?
12:18<Eddi|zuHause>if it flat out "rounded" to 5, i must actually attach a wagon to see that it won't fit anymore
12:18<Wolf01>Or length too
12:18<supermop>if i buy one more wagon and its 5.1 i sell the wagon or save it for the next train
12:18<frosch123>Wolf01: compatiblity issues with 28/32 vehicles
12:18<frosch123>otherwise i would have added it years ago :p
12:19<Wolf01>No, I meant really a ruler drawn over the rows, like the word processors
12:20<frosch123>yes, but that only works if 1 tile length is always 32 or 28 pixels
12:20<frosch123>and not different per train
12:20<Wolf01>It is?
12:21<Wolf01>Never noticed that... maybe because I'm using always the same grf since... ever
12:21<frosch123>you need a game which is less f-ed up with half features like ottd :)
12:22<Eddi|zuHause>can such a game even exist?
12:23<Wolf01>Yeah, pong
12:25<Eddi|zuHause>i'm sure there are loads of WTF in the original pong code
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12:35<johannes_2>Hello, I have a city with only one train station, where the servies for all kinds of produces goods (passengers, mail and money) are judged good or better. still, the town rating is still medium for years now...
12:35<johannes_2>could there be any reason why the town does not increase my rating?
12:38<frosch123>if you have a services station and do nothing otherwise, rating should increase about every 16 months
12:38<quiznilo>if you subscribe to the notion that TTD was the original asperger's troll, there are lots of problems with 4.8 length trains, or 5.1 length trains.
12:38<frosch123>note that unserviced stations decrease rating
12:38<frosch123>so make sure that all your stations are good
12:41<supermop>what magic do you use to render various minerals andythenorth?
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12:42<andythenorth>python recolouring of pngs
12:45<johannes_2>frosch123: actually all stations are good, but it did not increase after 5 years iirc
12:45<johannes_2>also, many other towns increase the rating more often than once a year
12:45<frosch123>https://wiki.openttd.org/Game_mechanics#Local_authority_rating <- well, check yourself
12:46<Eddi|zuHause>quiznilo: but with stock vehicles you only ever get .0 and .5
12:48<supermop>ogfx sprite sheet has some open trucks with brown sides
12:48<LordAro>frosch123: you can do better than that :p http://hg.openttd.org/trunk.hg/file/57b4f62e2c66/src/town_cmd.cpp#l3061
12:49<supermop>and something that looks covered by a big grey tarp
12:49<supermop>i should be using like 2nd gen ih wagons for these truck bodies
12:51<johannes_2>frosch123: thanks. I have one active station and a rating of mediocre, so the formula says it needs to increase by 17 every month, which means that after 13 months, the rating must be >= 0 + 13*17 >= 200
12:51<johannes_2>however, I've just skipped 13 months and it is still mediocre
12:51<johannes_2>I once had on old train station that I bulldozed, but these should not be counted
12:52<frosch123>well, it's less about your station rating, but more about how often you load/unload cargo
12:52<johannes_2>cargo is transfered more often than each 50 days
12:54<johannes_2>would you mind looking at the city? I could mail the savegame to you
12:55<frosch123>maybe ask eddi
12:55<frosch123>i need to get more iron
12:56<johannes_2>Eddi|zuHause: Could you please check my savegame for issues with this city?
12:56<Eddi|zuHause>no, i cannot check your savegame
12:57<supermop>johannes_2 best to post it on tt-forums
12:57<supermop>with maybe some screenshots
12:57<johannes_2>or I'll just run gdb on it
12:57<johannes_2>that should clearly show the calculation
12:58<Eddi|zuHause>you know that saying about kanonen and spatzen?
12:58<supermop>not everyone can open up an run the game right now, but someone on the forum will probably take a look
12:58<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: that sounds way too idiomatic to have been covered in any german class i took
13:00<supermop>maybe all the cabs should be 2cc for trolley trucks
13:02<johannes_2>hehe at least, if it's a bug (which I don't assume), I'll know the exact reason
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13:41*andythenorth biab
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14:08<quiznilo>supermop: 3 for branch freight? Seriously?
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14:43<andythenorth>I could do all trains at 4/8 or 8/8
14:56<V453000>that sounds like too much of a good idea
14:56<V453000>do 7.4/8
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15:00<andythenorth>V453000: why is non 0.5 lengths shit?
15:00<andythenorth>I can’t figure it out
15:00<V453000>because station and signal tiles are always whole numbers?
15:01<andythenorth>isn’t it
15:01<andythenorth>also it’s a stupid guessing game
15:01<andythenorth>depot buy menu doesn’t indicate length
15:02<frosch123>make a patch for thatr
15:02<V453000>well you can mention it there
15:02<V453000>in graphics too
15:02<andythenorth>also how does 10/8 resolve to single decimal place?
15:02<V453000>but it's just a mess gameplay wise
15:02<andythenorth>is it a mess?
15:02<andythenorth>or am I just being weird?
15:02<V453000>it is a mess
15:02<andythenorth>it annoys fuck out of me, but I don’t know why
15:02<andythenorth>seems a bit OCD
15:02<V453000>4/8 or 8/8
15:02<V453000>teh rule
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15:03<andythenorth>but 6/8 looks nice :P
15:03<andythenorth>and fits nicely into 3, 6, 9 tile TL :P
15:05<V453000>yeah, and horribly into everything else :P
15:05<V453000>esp when mixed with 8/8 engines
15:08<frosch123>which tech do i need for blueprints?
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15:10<frosch123>also what about these receipts with a cargo that is both input and output?
15:10<frosch123>first i though it was a typo, but now i found a second one
15:15<frosch123>ah, found the blueprints
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15:23<Wolf01>V453000, the new train orders, how do they work? I tried to set "fluid count > 10k && item count = 0" but even after the fluid reached 22k the train was still there
15:33<Wolf01>Ok, I think I got it... I had to set the signal, I thought it was for the circuit network condition
15:34<andythenorth>“Cogeneration plant” or “Combined heat and power plant”?
15:34<andythenorth>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogeneration
15:35<Wolf01>Why differ? Just "power plant" isn't good?
15:35<frosch123>i use the term "cogeneration" at work
15:36<andythenorth>Wolf01: it has different graphics to regular coal / oil power plant
15:36<andythenorth>or I could just…not do that
15:36<Wolf01>Does it use the same fuel?
15:36<andythenorth>Peat
15:37<andythenorth>I am kicking around having biomass / woodchips in some other economy
15:37<andythenorth>also
15:37<andythenorth>some kind of 21st century sustainability thing
15:37<andythenorth>plastic -> additive manufacturing plant
15:37<andythenorth>iphones -> shredder
15:38<andythenorth>probiotics -> dairy ->.yoghurt shop
15:38<andythenorth>gluten free food -> general store
15:38<andythenorth>windmills -> sea
15:38<Wolf01>Meh... 1 U-235 so far :(
15:38<andythenorth>batteries -> tesla plant
15:38<andythenorth>town food waste -> compost
15:39<andythenorth>such FIRS
15:39<frosch123>andythenorth: you are already quite good at deprecating cargo, you do not need external hipster terms
15:39<Wolf01>XD
15:39<Wolf01>BTW, is tesla plant->batteries
15:40<andythenorth>tesla plant -> batteries -> tesla car plant
15:40<andythenorth>via rocket
15:40<andythenorth>I needed more sea industries: space X landing barge
15:40<andythenorth>accepts: nothing
15:40<andythenorth>produces: lightly used rockets
15:41<Wolf01>Mmmmh, rockets... make a graphic for aicrafts which only raise vertically in the runway, then transparent graphics and no shadow until they land on the other airport
15:47<supermop>Wolf01 hard to click on
15:47<Wolf01>Because you click on the planes while they travel at 900kmh?
15:47<supermop>sure
15:48<Wolf01>Nice reflexes then
15:48<supermop>really don't feel like drawing truck cargo
15:49<andythenorth>supermop: just don’t :P
15:49<supermop>what are the sensible tradeoffs for load spead?
15:49<supermop>speed
15:49<andythenorth>supermop: what code base are you working with?
15:49<supermop>like, running cost seems like wouldn't care
15:50<supermop>andythenorthi am adding the rest of the ogfx+rv types to trolleybi trucks
15:50<supermop>so trolleybi, which is very simple
15:50<andythenorth>hmm
15:50<andythenorth>if you ported it to Road Hog, you get a lot free
15:50<supermop>i would also usually choose load speed over top speed 90% of the time for RVs
15:51<andythenorth>but it’s much more to work with
15:51<andythenorth>more dependencies etc
15:51<supermop>andythenorth: then its not ogfx+ ish
15:51<supermop>i want pm to just take the trolleybi and roll them into ogfx+ someday
15:51<andythenorth>ok
15:52<andythenorth>no automatic cargo graphics for you then :)
15:52<supermop>there would be a lot id do different if i was working from whole cloth
15:52<andythenorth>seems RH the loading speed is traded against weight
15:52<andythenorth>rather than cost
15:52<supermop>andythenorth happy to steal magic if i can
15:52<supermop>like, i wouldn't make 40 pax trolley buses if i was making a supermop+ RVs
15:53<supermop>nor would every RV be rigid body, .5 TL
15:55<supermop>maybe cargo decay?
15:55<supermop>do people pay attention to that>
15:55<andythenorth>they have no way of knowing about it
15:56<andythenorth>I apply it to some vehicles anyway
15:56<supermop>more doors etc on side to load cargo faster could be traded off with cost or weight or speed i guess
15:57<supermop>but idk what circumstances would make someone choose the fast vs slow loading then
15:58<andythenorth>fast loading = high decay
15:58<andythenorth>slow loading = low decay
15:58<supermop>the trolley busses already have more HP, and less running cost than diesel trucks, so don't want to split too many more hairs there
15:58<andythenorth>is how I do it for buses
15:58<supermop>bus is straightforward
15:59<andythenorth>as far as possible I try and make the choice of vehicle about how it looks
15:59<andythenorth>ottd is a piss-poor economic simulator
15:59<andythenorth>but is very nice ‘watch the pixels’ move simulator
16:00<supermop>greyhound has only one door but goes fast and is tolerable for 4 hours, city bus has 2 wider doors, a low floor, but is slow and makes you sick in 5 minutes
16:00<andythenorth>same for commuter ferry versus overnight ferry
16:00<supermop>crate of newspapers probably doesn't care what it is in
16:01<andythenorth>decay on freight is only for refrigerated cargo
16:01<andythenorth>also livestock
16:01<supermop>fwiw i see fish delivered on flatbeds on my block every morning
16:01<supermop>blue plastic tank pallets
16:02<supermop>so weight is high and capacity is low, but the fish are still swiming so they don't mind the lack of refridgeration
16:03*supermop lives in chinatown
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16:06<supermop>flatbed, open truck, reefer, box truck, mail truck,
16:06<supermop>guess can add tanker and hopper
16:06<supermop>that should be enough
16:07<supermop>dump truck?
16:08<supermop>really the only point of this set is "here is something that uses ELRD" , "someone else make something better"
16:08<andythenorth>I did dump truck
16:09<supermop>dump truck seems neat for electrified dirt road
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16:16<andythenorth>V453000: you have engines with wagons attached :o
16:16<andythenorth>in NUTS
16:16<andythenorth>hmm
16:34<supermop>hmm i feel like i should get rid of this big grey band on the tankers
16:39<quiznilo>I worry about making a 4.04 length train, that shows as 4.0 in the depot, but still loads and unloads super slow on 4 length platforms
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>train length unit is 1/16
16:41<quiznilo>so this won't happen?
16:41<Eddi|zuHause>so 4.0625 is the next step after 4.0
16:42<quiznilo>well, does train length round or just some kind of integer cut-off?
16:43<andythenorth>ha funny how the cycle goes
16:43<andythenorth>now I’m playing with NARS 2, I want the FIRS station rating hack back :P
16:43<andythenorth>I can’t afford enough trains
16:44<andythenorth>to always have one waiting
16:44<quiznilo>what is that station rating hack?
16:45<andythenorth>reduces penalty for not picking up
16:45<andythenorth>or sets station rating to 100%
16:52<quiznilo>I propose changing departure order in depots from FILO to FIFO
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>i'm pretty sure it's neither of those
16:53<quiznilo>oh
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>most likely it's based on vehicle ID
16:54<Eddi|zuHause>so if vehicles 2,5,10 and 12 are in the depot, and vehicle 8 leaves the block to make the depot exit free, then vehicle 10 will leave next
16:54<quiznilo>for some reason, I expect it to behave like station loading does
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not sure if that applies to depots, but for signals it also once depended on acceleration, so whichever vehicle got from speed 0 to the next vehicle step first would move
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17:04<supermop>got 1 px of clear space between tank and chassis to see road
17:04<V453000>andythenorth: that's just an extreme measure to make all purchaseable units exactly 16/8
17:04<V453000>buying things per tile is nice for nuts
17:04<supermop>not sure if that's going to look ok
17:04<V453000>but the configurability can suck if you have different visuals for similar wagon
17:08<supermop>andythenorth: in hog/horse, did stock wagons etc end up as 1st cc or as some kind of brown?
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17:15<andythenorth>supermop: CC in hog, grey in horse
17:15<andythenorth>but horse is wrong
17:21<andythenorth>hmm
17:21<andythenorth>Hunting Camp and Herding Coop are same length in both words
17:21<andythenorth>and same start and end letters
17:21<andythenorth>chances of that, statistically?
17:22*andythenorth renamed an industry
17:23<supermop>andythenorth callback to set name based on build year
17:24<supermop>in 0 CE its a hunting camp, in 2000 its a herding coop
17:27<dpk>LordAro: hey
17:28<LordAro>dpk: coincidence
17:29<andythenorth>bed
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18:25<quiznilo>sometimes, when I'm playing competitive ottd, I start wishing for tactical nuclear weapons, in-game
18:26<Wolf01>Then you should play factorio
18:26<quiznilo>I didn't know factorio had a competitive mode
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19:17<Wolf01>'night
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19:49<quiznilo>Accidentally fat-fingered attempting to send myself a private message
19:49<quiznilo>it crashed https://paste.pound-python.org/show/0W5EgoXt9dzD4WfEVfOE/
19:49<quiznilo>guess I should've compiled debugging symbols in >.<
19:52<quiznilo>http://i.imgur.com/E634fwr.png screenshot
19:55<quiznilo>crash is confirmed reproducable
20:02<ST2>well, which version on server/client
20:02<ST2>?
20:02<ST2>because, by default, there's no option to sent PM to itself
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20:04<quiznilo>OpenTTD jgrpp-0.18.0-35-gab22cfbc8
20:04<ST2>so you know where to report the bug :)
20:04<quiznilo>:)
20:04<quiznilo>check scrot, I tried to send a PM to the server
20:05<quiznilo>and I betcha this happens in vanilla ottd also
20:05<ST2>nop
20:06<ST2>that's why I asked which version you were using - on vanilla works as intended :)
20:07<quiznilo>I will let the furry know that his patchset has a bug then
20:12<supermop>ok no cargo yet, but i've drawn all the remaining trolley trucks
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---Logclosed Mon May 01 00:00:32 2017