| --- | Log | opened Sat May 06 00:00:39 2017 |
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| 07:02 | <Wolf01> | Moin |
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| 07:38 | <Eddi|zuHause> | that sounds like he had a fun night https://www.zerotier.com/blog/2017-05-05-theleak.shtml |
| 07:50 | <Wolf01> | "Fast and express belt length increase" \o/ |
| 07:50 | <Wolf01> | I could remove the mod from the list |
| 07:51 | <Wolf01> | Not the same lengths but is really welcome |
| 07:52 | <Wolf01> | supermop_ "Please remove tiles." XD only if freeform tracks and road will be added |
| 07:53 | <Wolf01> | AHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA the last post https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1186229#p1186229 |
| 07:54 | <frosch123> | length increase? for underground belt, or what? |
| 07:54 | <Wolf01> | Underground belt |
| 07:55 | <Wolf01> | https://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-189 |
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| 07:58 | <Wolf01> | Blueprint based gameplay would be a killer thing for sandbox, but without construction robots, you should be able to place the stuff directly |
| 07:58 | <Wolf01> | o/ |
| 07:58 | <andythenorth> | o/ |
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| 08:00 | <andythenorth> | have I offended frosch? :o |
| 08:01 | <Wolf01> | Mmmh, no clue |
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| 08:27 | <andythenorth> | does grfcodec build with libpng 1.6.x? |
| 08:38 | <debdog> | http://edition.cnn.com/2017/05/03/travel/japan-luxury-shiki-shima-train/index.html |
| 08:38 | <Wolf01> | I'm considering to change nick... |
| 08:39 | <Wolf01> | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolpertinger |
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| 08:50 | <frosch123> | andythenorth: https://packages.debian.org/sid/grfcodec <- apparently it does |
| 08:51 | <andythenorth> | OS X isn’t supported, right? |
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| 08:52 | <@Alberth> | o/ |
| 08:53 | <@Alberth> | andy: what would happen if you ignore new BBs request to feed the cities? |
| 08:57 | <andythenorth> | Alberth: ? o_O |
| 08:58 | <andythenorth> | do you mean ‘is there a penalty’? |
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| 09:12 | <@Alberth> | that's the question indeed |
| 09:12 | <@Alberth> | maybe it's a wrong idea :) |
| 09:13 | <andythenorth> | I hadn’t anticipated any penalty |
| 09:13 | <andythenorth> | you either win, and level up, or you go again |
| 09:13 | <andythenorth> | I was thinking it would be quarterly or annual or so |
| 09:13 | <@Alberth> | sounds fair enough |
| 09:14 | <andythenorth> | particularly in desert or snow, it implies also delivering cargos, to grow the town |
| 09:14 | <andythenorth> | town / towns /s |
| 09:14 | <andythenorth> | any towns you like |
| 09:14 | <@Alberth> | it would just measure deliveries, right, rather than growth? |
| 09:14 | <andythenorth> | yes |
| 09:14 | <andythenorth> | transport game ;) |
| 09:14 | <andythenorth> | not sim city |
| 09:15 | <andythenorth> | the difficulty will vary wildly depending on map and town settings |
| 09:15 | <@Alberth> | so, not transporting cargoes to town is a valid option :) |
| 09:15 | <andythenorth> | any pax / mail |
| 09:15 | <andythenorth> | hotels, oil rigs, industries in SPI |
| 09:15 | <@Alberth> | much simpler :p |
| 09:15 | <@Alberth> | plenty of pax wanting to go anywhere :) |
| 09:15 | <andythenorth> | it’s like NCG for pax + BB for freight |
| 09:16 | <andythenorth> | except NCG is win/lose, no ‘level up' |
| 09:16 | <@Alberth> | I was wondering, higher level is provide more, for longer time |
| 09:17 | <andythenorth> | Urban Bee |
| 09:17 | <andythenorth> | Passenger Bee |
| 09:17 | <@Alberth> | which isn't terribly complicated if you build robust networks |
| 09:17 | <andythenorth> | no |
| 09:17 | <andythenorth> | it’s just something to measure progress |
| 09:18 | <andythenorth> | the town goals in BB seem weirdly specific, compared to freight |
| 09:18 | <andythenorth> | x tonnes of coal by 1950 I can understand |
| 09:18 | <@Alberth> | you need more industries :p |
| 09:18 | <andythenorth> | but x passengers between two places seems…less compelling :) |
| 09:19 | <andythenorth> | maybe a zero-towns map :P |
| 09:19 | <@Alberth> | it never specifies "from" afaik |
| 09:19 | <andythenorth> | no |
| 09:19 | <andythenorth> | my mistake :) |
| 09:19 | <@Alberth> | your imagination is filling too many blanks :) |
| 09:20 | <@Alberth> | well, could be another goal, I guess, that would be simplest |
| 09:20 | <@Alberth> | one that never expires |
| 09:20 | <andythenorth> | deliver 100,000 passengers, anywhere? |
| 09:21 | <@Alberth> | euhm, didn't you propose "to" levels? |
| 09:21 | <@Alberth> | ah, deliver |
| 09:21 | <andythenorth> | well yes |
| 09:21 | <@Alberth> | yes, I'd say |
| 09:22 | <@Alberth> | if you want to do that all in one spot, go ahead |
| 09:22 | <@Alberth> | using more spots is simpler :p |
| 09:23 | <@Alberth> | hmm, you could 'cheat' by transporting small distances |
| 09:23 | <@Alberth> | freight deliveries to a city would work, much more complicated to cheat |
| 09:24 | <@Alberth> | pax is trivial, just build sufficient bus stations |
| 09:24 | <@Alberth> | or tram stations, for that matter |
| 09:26 | <@Alberth> | could take the absolute difference between supply and delivery in the same city :p |
| 09:26 | <@Alberth> | so each city must be either supplier or provider |
| 09:26 | <Eddi|zuHause> | that doesn't work well with symmetric cargodist |
| 09:27 | <@Alberth> | likely it won't work well with any cargo-dist :) |
| 09:27 | <@Alberth> | pax is inherently bi-directional |
| 09:28 | <@Alberth> | you need to explicitly stop that |
| 09:29 | <andythenorth> | my original goal was distributing food |
| 09:29 | <Eddi|zuHause> | that sounds stupid |
| 09:29 | <andythenorth> | I’m playing arctic currently |
| 09:29 | <Eddi|zuHause> | ... not the food bit |
| 09:30 | <@Alberth> | :) |
| 09:30 | <andythenorth> | doing a few point-to-point routes for food is fine, but unsatisfying |
| 09:30 | <andythenorth> | I’d rather have some target to try and use all the food on the map |
| 09:30 | <andythenorth> | can we measure supply? |
| 09:30 | <@Alberth> | andy needs a tap on the shoulder for doing good job :) |
| 09:30 | <andythenorth> | can be nerfed by demolishing all the food supply industries :P |
| 09:31 | <andythenorth> | instant win |
| 09:31 | <@Alberth> | sure you can measure supply, just not correlated with deliveries |
| 09:31 | <andythenorth> | in 1950, 9000 tons of food were produced, and 3000 tons were delivered? |
| 09:32 | <@Alberth> | better than the other way around :p |
| 09:32 | <@Alberth> | make station for "temporary" storage of food :p |
| 09:33 | <@Alberth> | then deliver it all in one year |
| 09:33 | <andythenorth> | all systems can be gamed :) |
| 09:33 | <Eddi|zuHause> | maybe some food was lost from low ratings? |
| 09:33 | <Eddi|zuHause> | or you started producing a lot of food towards the end of the year, and it was not delivered yet? |
| 09:33 | <@Alberth> | ratings is just a matter of visiting the station often enough? |
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| 09:34 | <@Alberth> | and yes, supply is counted only at final delivery |
| 09:34 | <@Alberth> | but that goes both ways, ie early in the year you get food that started its journey at the end of the previous year |
| 09:35 | <andythenorth> | frosch123: when I run make for the grfcodec project, I get “make: *** No rule to make target `/opt/local/include/libpng16/png.h', needed by `objs/pngsprit.o'. Stop.” |
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| 09:35 | <andythenorth> | dunno if that’s just a path issue |
| 09:35 | <andythenorth> | I copied a grfcodec binary from my old mac, and it works |
| 09:35 | <@Alberth> | you have not libpng16? |
| 09:35 | <andythenorth> | I do |
| 09:36 | <Eddi|zuHause> | probably a ./configure issue |
| 09:36 | <andythenorth> | 1.6.29 |
| 09:36 | <@Alberth> | at that path? probably not |
| 09:36 | <andythenorth> | there isn’t a ./configure |
| 09:36 | <andythenorth> | I used to be able to build grfcodec on my old mac, so eh |
| 09:36 | <@Alberth> | where does /opt/local come from then? |
| 09:37 | <andythenorth> | doesn’t exist |
| 09:37 | <@Alberth> | manual configu-thingy-ing? |
| 09:37 | <andythenorth> | might have been macports put it there |
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| 09:39 | * | andythenorth doesn’t have macports any longer |
| 09:40 | <@Alberth> | what does libpng-config --cflags say |
| 09:41 | <@Alberth> | maybe your installed library doesn't know the header files are gone |
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| 09:41 | <andythenorth> | -I/usr/local/Cellar/libpng/1.6.29/include/libpng16 |
| 09:42 | <@Alberth> | that looks like a different path :) |
| 09:43 | * | andythenorth reading the Makfile |
| 09:43 | <andythenorth> | Makefil * |
| 09:43 | <andythenorth> | err, this is going badly :P |
| 09:43 | <Eddi|zuHause> | not enough "e"s? :p |
| 09:45 | <andythenorth> | maybe my key is sticky |
| 09:46 | <andythenorth> | this keyboard is so loud, I’ve started typing softly :P |
| 09:49 | <@Alberth> | well, food delivery would be fine, as it's not bi-directional in nature |
| 09:50 | <andythenorth> | ok so /opt/local assumes macports is installed |
| 09:50 | <andythenorth> | I can probably patch that to the brew location |
| 09:50 | * | andythenorth will try in a bit |
| 09:50 | <andythenorth> | Alberth: ‘Blanket Goals' |
| 09:50 | <andythenorth> | ‘Whole Map Goals’? :P |
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| 09:53 | <quiznilo> | andythenorth: I linked a youtube video in here the other day, how to properly transfer coal from trains to ship |
| 09:53 | <@Alberth> | BB already does specific goals |
| 09:53 | <quiznilo> | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5qdWIUrtBc |
| 09:53 | <quiznilo> | thought you might be interested |
| 09:54 | <@Alberth> | and "delivery to cities" does sound map-wide :) |
| 09:54 | <@Alberth> | tbh I don't know if it should be BB-ish |
| 09:55 | <@Alberth> | at some point food delivery will be dominating anything else |
| 09:55 | <@Alberth> | it's more a global SV for food :) |
| 09:57 | <@Alberth> | doing something wrt to balancing between cities would be nice |
| 09:57 | <@Alberth> | or you deliver everything just to a few cities :p |
| 09:57 | <quiznilo> | interesting... you don't get office buildings or other cool buildings in towns with TTRS until 1930 |
| 09:58 | <Eddi|zuHause> | there was once a bug that all towns consisted only of banks |
| 09:58 | <@Alberth> | might still exist :) |
| 09:59 | <quiznilo> | haha |
| 09:59 | <@Alberth> | theaters bug still exist, doesn't it? |
| 10:00 | <quiznilo> | havn't seen that in a bit |
| 10:00 | <quiznilo> | theaters errywhere |
| 10:00 | <andythenorth> | theatres bug still exists |
| 10:00 | <@Alberth> | OpenTTD inhabitants are dedicated theatre visitors :) |
| 10:01 | <andythenorth> | http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/6771/too_many_theatres.png |
| 10:01 | <andythenorth> | http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7931/theatres_eh.png |
| 10:01 | <andythenorth> | @calc 6659 / 32 |
| 10:01 | <@DorpsGek> | andythenorth: 208.09375 |
| 10:02 | <andythenorth> | one theatre per 200 people |
| 10:02 | <@Alberth> | sounds fair |
| 10:02 | <andythenorth> | ‘global SV’ might be interesting |
| 10:02 | <andythenorth> | dunno :) |
| 10:02 | * | andythenorth biab |
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| 10:40 | <Wolf01> | Increased roboport construction range to 55 (110x110 area) to make roboports able to build each other without interconnecting their logistic areas<- wtf? |
| 10:50 | <@Alberth> | progress in AI? :) |
| 11:06 | <supermop> | maybe an opengfx+ houses could help |
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| 11:11 | <LordAro> | Wolf01: so that you may automatically connect "build networks" without also connecting logistic networks |
| 11:11 | <LordAro> | e.g. for walls or something |
| 11:15 | <Wolf01> | Nope... it only works with the first iteration of the network, the second iteration doesn't have access to storage and won't build |
| 11:16 | <Wolf01> | I was thinking that too, to be able to build a crawling network without sharing the storage |
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| 11:18 | <LordAro> | ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |
| 11:22 | <Wolf01> | I welcome the area increment, so when I build my template at least now construction bots are able to harvest all the trees and rocks in the spot which before blocked the placement of roboports, but I really don't get the meaning of not interconnecting a logistic area, no access to storage mean no repair/restock ammo and no self replicating templates |
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| 11:54 | <LordAro> | frosch123: wiki updated :) |
| 11:54 | <frosch123> | \o/ |
| 11:55 | <LordAro> | https://wiki.openttd.org/Special:Version hmm |
| 11:55 | <andythenorth> | could we nerf passenger generation from towns, depending on number of destinations served (assuming cdist)? |
| 11:55 | <LordAro> | those are quite old |
| 11:56 | <Eddi|zuHause> | andythenorth: any attempts at that turned out terrible |
| 11:56 | <andythenorth> | unsurprising |
| 11:56 | <andythenorth> | was it tried as log(N)? |
| 11:57 | <Wolf01> | LordAro, which version it was before? :D |
| 11:58 | <Eddi|zuHause> | andythenorth: basically there are two problems: 1) it's difficult to determine how many destinations there actually are, and which of them are reached. and b) if you make generation too low, you can't ever start a new game |
| 11:58 | <LordAro> | Wolf01: as in, added stuff for the 1.7.1 release :p |
| 11:58 | <LordAro> | you need TB to update mediawiki... |
| 11:58 | <Wolf01> | Oh, I thought you updated the wiki itself |
| 11:59 | <LordAro> | (and i can't say i blame him for not touching it, the mediawiki instance i manage is currently in "read only" mode as the last update broke authentication) |
| 11:59 | <Eddi|zuHause> | andythenorth: also, if you try to scale the production by reducing the station rating, you trigger all the weird effects of low ratings, like cargo disappearing and industries closing |
| 11:59 | <Wolf01> | Btw, I'm fine with this one, no stupid javascript everywhere |
| 11:59 | <andythenorth> | Eddi|zuHause: the station doesn’t know how many nodes are in the graph? |
| 12:00 | <Eddi|zuHause> | andythenorth: the unserviced areas are not in the graph |
| 12:00 | <LordAro> | Wolf01: i don't believe newer versions have gotten rid of the older themes |
| 12:00 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 12:00 | <andythenorth> | probably best left alone then |
| 12:01 | <andythenorth> | 25%, 50%, 100% |
| 12:01 | <andythenorth> | I was thinking |
| 12:01 | <Wolf01> | I should update mine too, but I shut down the server about 2 months ago |
| 12:01 | <Eddi|zuHause> | andythenorth: and looking up for each house whether it's in the coverage area of a station is too cpu heavy |
| 12:01 | <andythenorth> | fair |
| 12:04 | <Eddi|zuHause> | so in a naive approach you have like a complexity of O(#tiles_in_map*station_spread^2*#networks) |
| 12:05 | <Eddi|zuHause> | *#cargos |
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| 13:14 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 13:14 | <andythenorth> | maybe should add this to FIRS Arctic Basic http://www.economist.com/news/business/21721669-finnish-refiner-turning-slaughterhouses-oil-wells-neste-uses-animal-waste-make |
| 13:17 | <@Alberth> | :) |
| 13:18 | <@Alberth> | unfortunately not a good example for animal rights :) |
| 13:39 | <Eddi|zuHause> | how is "wryly" a valid word? |
| 13:41 | <andythenorth> | English |
| 13:41 | <andythenorth> | to do something in a wry fashion |
| 13:41 | <Eddi|zuHause> | anyway, i don't think that will become "mainstream"... |
| 13:42 | <Eddi|zuHause> | a) you can't possibly kill enough cattle to fuel all cars in this world, and b) it's not vegan... |
| 13:52 | <Eddi|zuHause> | it's the same problem as with "bio"fuel, the theory is fine as long as you're just using waste products of other processing, but when the demand rises, you start allocating growing areas just to produce this type of fuel |
| 14:03 | <frosch123> | Eddi|zuHause: how do you mean? the efficiency of sun->corn->methan->electricity is 0.2%, solar cells are barely 20% |
| 14:04 | <Eddi|zuHause> | frosch123: well, besides that... the point is that areas are taken from producing food into producing fuel. and then rainforest areas are taken to produce the food |
| 14:06 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and as soon as you're starting to cut down rainforest areas, you're no longer "sustainable" |
| 14:06 | <Eddi|zuHause> | which means you didn't achieve anything |
| 14:08 | <Eddi|zuHause> | frosch123: also, getting the electricity from the solar cell into your car isn't exactly 100% either |
| 14:13 | * | andythenorth considers “waste animal fats” cargo |
| 14:14 | <frosch123> | it's just biomass |
| 14:14 | <Eddi|zuHause> | it's not that many steps away from soylent green |
| 14:15 | <frosch123> | try vegan meat |
| 14:15 | <Eddi|zuHause> | probably not |
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| 18:16 | <supermop> | can i have a truck refit to less capacity for certain cargo types? |
| 18:17 | <supermop> | like 40 crates of goods, but if you refit to bulk, it only holds 20T? |
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| 18:24 | <frosch123> | yes |
| 18:25 | <frosch123> | want to know how, or just planning? |
| 18:25 | <supermop> | yes, would be nice |
| 18:26 | <frosch123> | in addition to "capacity" in the "properties" section you can also put a "capacity" into the "graphics" section and link it to a switch |
| 18:27 | <frosch123> | cargo_classes_in_consist then gives you the cargo classed |
| 18:27 | <frosch123> | actually "cargo_classes" is better |
| 18:28 | <frosch123> | you can also check specific cargos via "cargo_type_in_veh" |
| 18:28 | <frosch123> | however, if you add "capacity" to "graphics", do not remove "capacity" from "properties" |
| 18:28 | <supermop> | hmm |
| 18:30 | <Eddi|zuHause> | some people have run into traps with this where the default cargo for purchase menu screwed up their calculations |
| 18:34 | <supermop> | huh |
| 18:35 | <supermop> | also, is it easy to have a param to say, double or halve all capacities? |
| 18:35 | <Eddi|zuHause> | might be a bit tedious |
| 18:35 | <supermop> | vanilla style capacities for trucks are tiny if playing with any other sets |
| 18:36 | <frosch123> | it's a matter of adding "* param_capacity" to all "capacity" definitions in your source |
| 18:36 | <supermop> | that does sound a bit tedious |
| 18:36 | <frosch123> | it entirely depends on your search+replace skills :) |
| 18:37 | <supermop> | but so is all the cargo graphic stuff im doing now |
| 18:37 | <frosch123> | no idea how many vehicles you have |
| 18:37 | <supermop> | not many |
| 18:38 | <Eddi|zuHause> | in CETS i simply have one callback for each possible base capacity |
| 18:38 | <supermop> | 4 generations, bus, mail truck, goods truck, open truck, hopper, flatbed, 2 generations of container carrier |
| 18:39 | <Eddi|zuHause> | so if i have 100 vehicle, and each one has a base capacity of 20, 30 or 50, then i put capacity_20_switch, capacity_30_switch or capacity_50_switch |
| 18:39 | <Eddi|zuHause> | then the switches handle the doubling, etc. |
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| 18:50 | <supermop> | huh what lable is lumber in firs? |
| 18:50 | <supermop> | wood products? |
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| 18:51 | <frosch123> | http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/code_reference.html#cargos |
| 18:52 | <frosch123> | Timber lumber WDPR |
| 18:52 | <supermop> | ooh timber |
| 18:52 | <supermop> | how british |
| 18:53 | <supermop> | im not drawing vehicle bodies yet, so those are goin to just get shipped in crates |
| 18:55 | <supermop> | hmm zinc |
| 18:56 | <supermop> | i hope that gets shipping in big rolls that just happen to look like steel coils |
| 18:56 | <supermop> | otherwise crates again |
| 19:03 | <supermop> | where i have: loaded: [spriteset_mkii_t_flat_empty, spriteset_mkii_t_flat_full_lumber]; |
| 19:03 | <supermop> | can i but a middle one in there for halfway full? |
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| 19:06 | <Wolf01> | I have 2 choices now: try to get me banned from astroneer forums OR ignore and just continue to read only mode as I always do |
| 19:08 | <supermop> | hmm forgot to add sand graphics for open truck |
| 19:08 | <supermop> | maybe open truck should carry sand in crates |
| 19:08 | <supermop> | otherwise too much trouble to shovel it out |
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| 19:10 | <supermop> | frosch123 will that bulk class switch also work to make the default graphic to some pile if class is bulk, instead of crates? |
| 19:16 | <frosch123> | sure |
| 19:16 | <supermop> | i assume andy will add more and more types of ore |
| 19:17 | <frosch123> | if you do 8bpp graphics you can also add recoloring sprites to save on drawing actual sprites |
| 19:17 | <supermop> | idk how to do that |
| 19:18 | <supermop> | also i already drew a pile for iron ore, scrap, coal, and gravel |
| 19:18 | <supermop> | but i could recolor the ore to other ores i guess |
| 19:18 | <frosch123> | you can do that with your drawing program |
| 19:19 | <frosch123> | but you can also tell ottd to do it |
| 19:19 | <frosch123> | which may make it easier for multiple loading stages |
| 19:20 | <supermop> | i can imagine |
| 19:20 | <supermop> | i feel like i am forgetting a truck type |
| 19:21 | <supermop> | oh, livestock and grain hopper |
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| 20:23 | <Wolf01> | 'night |
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| 21:58 | <root> | ho |
| 21:58 | <root> | he |
| 21:58 | <root> | hi |
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| --- | Log | closed Sun May 07 00:00:40 2017 |
