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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-05-06

---Logopened Sat May 06 00:00:39 2017
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07:02<Wolf01>Moin
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07:38<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds like he had a fun night https://www.zerotier.com/blog/2017-05-05-theleak.shtml
07:50<Wolf01>"Fast and express belt length increase" \o/
07:50<Wolf01>I could remove the mod from the list
07:51<Wolf01>Not the same lengths but is really welcome
07:52<Wolf01>supermop_ "Please remove tiles." XD only if freeform tracks and road will be added
07:53<Wolf01>AHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA the last post https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1186229#p1186229
07:54<frosch123>length increase? for underground belt, or what?
07:54<Wolf01>Underground belt
07:55<Wolf01>https://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-189
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07:58<Wolf01>Blueprint based gameplay would be a killer thing for sandbox, but without construction robots, you should be able to place the stuff directly
07:58<Wolf01>o/
07:58<andythenorth>o/
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08:00<andythenorth>have I offended frosch? :o
08:01<Wolf01>Mmmh, no clue
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08:27<andythenorth>does grfcodec build with libpng 1.6.x?
08:38<debdog>http://edition.cnn.com/2017/05/03/travel/japan-luxury-shiki-shima-train/index.html
08:38<Wolf01>I'm considering to change nick...
08:39<Wolf01>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolpertinger
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08:50<frosch123>andythenorth: https://packages.debian.org/sid/grfcodec <- apparently it does
08:51<andythenorth>OS X isn’t supported, right?
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08:52<@Alberth>o/
08:53<@Alberth>andy: what would happen if you ignore new BBs request to feed the cities?
08:57<andythenorth>Alberth: ? o_O
08:58<andythenorth>do you mean ‘is there a penalty’?
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09:12<@Alberth>that's the question indeed
09:12<@Alberth>maybe it's a wrong idea :)
09:13<andythenorth>I hadn’t anticipated any penalty
09:13<andythenorth>you either win, and level up, or you go again
09:13<andythenorth>I was thinking it would be quarterly or annual or so
09:13<@Alberth>sounds fair enough
09:14<andythenorth>particularly in desert or snow, it implies also delivering cargos, to grow the town
09:14<andythenorth>town / towns /s
09:14<andythenorth>any towns you like
09:14<@Alberth>it would just measure deliveries, right, rather than growth?
09:14<andythenorth>yes
09:14<andythenorth>transport game ;)
09:14<andythenorth>not sim city
09:15<andythenorth>the difficulty will vary wildly depending on map and town settings
09:15<@Alberth>so, not transporting cargoes to town is a valid option :)
09:15<andythenorth>any pax / mail
09:15<andythenorth>hotels, oil rigs, industries in SPI
09:15<@Alberth>much simpler :p
09:15<@Alberth>plenty of pax wanting to go anywhere :)
09:15<andythenorth>it’s like NCG for pax + BB for freight
09:16<andythenorth>except NCG is win/lose, no ‘level up'
09:16<@Alberth>I was wondering, higher level is provide more, for longer time
09:17<andythenorth>Urban Bee
09:17<andythenorth>Passenger Bee
09:17<@Alberth>which isn't terribly complicated if you build robust networks
09:17<andythenorth>no
09:17<andythenorth>it’s just something to measure progress
09:18<andythenorth>the town goals in BB seem weirdly specific, compared to freight
09:18<andythenorth>x tonnes of coal by 1950 I can understand
09:18<@Alberth>you need more industries :p
09:18<andythenorth>but x passengers between two places seems…less compelling :)
09:19<andythenorth>maybe a zero-towns map :P
09:19<@Alberth>it never specifies "from" afaik
09:19<andythenorth>no
09:19<andythenorth>my mistake :)
09:19<@Alberth>your imagination is filling too many blanks :)
09:20<@Alberth>well, could be another goal, I guess, that would be simplest
09:20<@Alberth>one that never expires
09:20<andythenorth>deliver 100,000 passengers, anywhere?
09:21<@Alberth>euhm, didn't you propose "to" levels?
09:21<@Alberth>ah, deliver
09:21<andythenorth>well yes
09:21<@Alberth>yes, I'd say
09:22<@Alberth>if you want to do that all in one spot, go ahead
09:22<@Alberth>using more spots is simpler :p
09:23<@Alberth>hmm, you could 'cheat' by transporting small distances
09:23<@Alberth>freight deliveries to a city would work, much more complicated to cheat
09:24<@Alberth>pax is trivial, just build sufficient bus stations
09:24<@Alberth>or tram stations, for that matter
09:26<@Alberth>could take the absolute difference between supply and delivery in the same city :p
09:26<@Alberth>so each city must be either supplier or provider
09:26<Eddi|zuHause>that doesn't work well with symmetric cargodist
09:27<@Alberth>likely it won't work well with any cargo-dist :)
09:27<@Alberth>pax is inherently bi-directional
09:28<@Alberth>you need to explicitly stop that
09:29<andythenorth>my original goal was distributing food
09:29<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds stupid
09:29<andythenorth>I’m playing arctic currently
09:29<Eddi|zuHause>... not the food bit
09:30<@Alberth>:)
09:30<andythenorth>doing a few point-to-point routes for food is fine, but unsatisfying
09:30<andythenorth>I’d rather have some target to try and use all the food on the map
09:30<andythenorth>can we measure supply?
09:30<@Alberth>andy needs a tap on the shoulder for doing good job :)
09:30<andythenorth>can be nerfed by demolishing all the food supply industries :P
09:31<andythenorth>instant win
09:31<@Alberth>sure you can measure supply, just not correlated with deliveries
09:31<andythenorth>in 1950, 9000 tons of food were produced, and 3000 tons were delivered?
09:32<@Alberth>better than the other way around :p
09:32<@Alberth>make station for "temporary" storage of food :p
09:33<@Alberth>then deliver it all in one year
09:33<andythenorth>all systems can be gamed :)
09:33<Eddi|zuHause>maybe some food was lost from low ratings?
09:33<Eddi|zuHause>or you started producing a lot of food towards the end of the year, and it was not delivered yet?
09:33<@Alberth>ratings is just a matter of visiting the station often enough?
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09:34<@Alberth>and yes, supply is counted only at final delivery
09:34<@Alberth>but that goes both ways, ie early in the year you get food that started its journey at the end of the previous year
09:35<andythenorth>frosch123: when I run make for the grfcodec project, I get “make: *** No rule to make target `/opt/local/include/libpng16/png.h', needed by `objs/pngsprit.o'. Stop.”
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09:35<andythenorth>dunno if that’s just a path issue
09:35<andythenorth>I copied a grfcodec binary from my old mac, and it works
09:35<@Alberth>you have not libpng16?
09:35<andythenorth>I do
09:36<Eddi|zuHause>probably a ./configure issue
09:36<andythenorth>1.6.29
09:36<@Alberth>at that path? probably not
09:36<andythenorth>there isn’t a ./configure
09:36<andythenorth>I used to be able to build grfcodec on my old mac, so eh
09:36<@Alberth>where does /opt/local come from then?
09:37<andythenorth>doesn’t exist
09:37<@Alberth>manual configu-thingy-ing?
09:37<andythenorth>might have been macports put it there
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09:39*andythenorth doesn’t have macports any longer
09:40<@Alberth>what does libpng-config --cflags say
09:41<@Alberth>maybe your installed library doesn't know the header files are gone
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09:41<andythenorth>-I/usr/local/Cellar/libpng/1.6.29/include/libpng16
09:42<@Alberth>that looks like a different path :)
09:43*andythenorth reading the Makfile
09:43<andythenorth>Makefil *
09:43<andythenorth>err, this is going badly :P
09:43<Eddi|zuHause>not enough "e"s? :p
09:45<andythenorth>maybe my key is sticky
09:46<andythenorth>this keyboard is so loud, I’ve started typing softly :P
09:49<@Alberth>well, food delivery would be fine, as it's not bi-directional in nature
09:50<andythenorth>ok so /opt/local assumes macports is installed
09:50<andythenorth>I can probably patch that to the brew location
09:50*andythenorth will try in a bit
09:50<andythenorth>Alberth: ‘Blanket Goals'
09:50<andythenorth>‘Whole Map Goals’? :P
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09:53<quiznilo>andythenorth: I linked a youtube video in here the other day, how to properly transfer coal from trains to ship
09:53<@Alberth>BB already does specific goals
09:53<quiznilo>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5qdWIUrtBc
09:53<quiznilo>thought you might be interested
09:54<@Alberth>and "delivery to cities" does sound map-wide :)
09:54<@Alberth>tbh I don't know if it should be BB-ish
09:55<@Alberth>at some point food delivery will be dominating anything else
09:55<@Alberth>it's more a global SV for food :)
09:57<@Alberth>doing something wrt to balancing between cities would be nice
09:57<@Alberth>or you deliver everything just to a few cities :p
09:57<quiznilo>interesting... you don't get office buildings or other cool buildings in towns with TTRS until 1930
09:58<Eddi|zuHause>there was once a bug that all towns consisted only of banks
09:58<@Alberth>might still exist :)
09:59<quiznilo>haha
09:59<@Alberth>theaters bug still exist, doesn't it?
10:00<quiznilo>havn't seen that in a bit
10:00<quiznilo>theaters errywhere
10:00<andythenorth>theatres bug still exists
10:00<@Alberth>OpenTTD inhabitants are dedicated theatre visitors :)
10:01<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/6771/too_many_theatres.png
10:01<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7931/theatres_eh.png
10:01<andythenorth>@calc 6659 / 32
10:01<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 208.09375
10:02<andythenorth>one theatre per 200 people
10:02<@Alberth>sounds fair
10:02<andythenorth>‘global SV’ might be interesting
10:02<andythenorth>dunno :)
10:02*andythenorth biab
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10:40<Wolf01>Increased roboport construction range to 55 (110x110 area) to make roboports able to build each other without interconnecting their logistic areas<- wtf?
10:50<@Alberth>progress in AI? :)
11:06<supermop>maybe an opengfx+ houses could help
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11:11<LordAro>Wolf01: so that you may automatically connect "build networks" without also connecting logistic networks
11:11<LordAro>e.g. for walls or something
11:15<Wolf01>Nope... it only works with the first iteration of the network, the second iteration doesn't have access to storage and won't build
11:16<Wolf01>I was thinking that too, to be able to build a crawling network without sharing the storage
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11:18<LordAro>¯\_(ツ)_/¯
11:22<Wolf01>I welcome the area increment, so when I build my template at least now construction bots are able to harvest all the trees and rocks in the spot which before blocked the placement of roboports, but I really don't get the meaning of not interconnecting a logistic area, no access to storage mean no repair/restock ammo and no self replicating templates
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11:54<LordAro>frosch123: wiki updated :)
11:54<frosch123>\o/
11:55<LordAro>https://wiki.openttd.org/Special:Version hmm
11:55<andythenorth>could we nerf passenger generation from towns, depending on number of destinations served (assuming cdist)?
11:55<LordAro>those are quite old
11:56<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: any attempts at that turned out terrible
11:56<andythenorth>unsurprising
11:56<andythenorth>was it tried as log(N)?
11:57<Wolf01>LordAro, which version it was before? :D
11:58<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: basically there are two problems: 1) it's difficult to determine how many destinations there actually are, and which of them are reached. and b) if you make generation too low, you can't ever start a new game
11:58<LordAro>Wolf01: as in, added stuff for the 1.7.1 release :p
11:58<LordAro>you need TB to update mediawiki...
11:58<Wolf01>Oh, I thought you updated the wiki itself
11:59<LordAro>(and i can't say i blame him for not touching it, the mediawiki instance i manage is currently in "read only" mode as the last update broke authentication)
11:59<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: also, if you try to scale the production by reducing the station rating, you trigger all the weird effects of low ratings, like cargo disappearing and industries closing
11:59<Wolf01>Btw, I'm fine with this one, no stupid javascript everywhere
11:59<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: the station doesn’t know how many nodes are in the graph?
12:00<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the unserviced areas are not in the graph
12:00<LordAro>Wolf01: i don't believe newer versions have gotten rid of the older themes
12:00<andythenorth>hmm
12:00<andythenorth>probably best left alone then
12:01<andythenorth>25%, 50%, 100%
12:01<andythenorth>I was thinking
12:01<Wolf01>I should update mine too, but I shut down the server about 2 months ago
12:01<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: and looking up for each house whether it's in the coverage area of a station is too cpu heavy
12:01<andythenorth>fair
12:04<Eddi|zuHause>so in a naive approach you have like a complexity of O(#tiles_in_map*station_spread^2*#networks)
12:05<Eddi|zuHause>*#cargos
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13:14<andythenorth>hmm
13:14<andythenorth>maybe should add this to FIRS Arctic Basic http://www.economist.com/news/business/21721669-finnish-refiner-turning-slaughterhouses-oil-wells-neste-uses-animal-waste-make
13:17<@Alberth>:)
13:18<@Alberth>unfortunately not a good example for animal rights :)
13:39<Eddi|zuHause>how is "wryly" a valid word?
13:41<andythenorth>English
13:41<andythenorth>to do something in a wry fashion
13:41<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, i don't think that will become "mainstream"...
13:42<Eddi|zuHause>a) you can't possibly kill enough cattle to fuel all cars in this world, and b) it's not vegan...
13:52<Eddi|zuHause>it's the same problem as with "bio"fuel, the theory is fine as long as you're just using waste products of other processing, but when the demand rises, you start allocating growing areas just to produce this type of fuel
14:03<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: how do you mean? the efficiency of sun->corn->methan->electricity is 0.2%, solar cells are barely 20%
14:04<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: well, besides that... the point is that areas are taken from producing food into producing fuel. and then rainforest areas are taken to produce the food
14:06<Eddi|zuHause>and as soon as you're starting to cut down rainforest areas, you're no longer "sustainable"
14:06<Eddi|zuHause>which means you didn't achieve anything
14:08<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: also, getting the electricity from the solar cell into your car isn't exactly 100% either
14:13*andythenorth considers “waste animal fats” cargo
14:14<frosch123>it's just biomass
14:14<Eddi|zuHause>it's not that many steps away from soylent green
14:15<frosch123>try vegan meat
14:15<Eddi|zuHause>probably not
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18:16<supermop>can i have a truck refit to less capacity for certain cargo types?
18:17<supermop>like 40 crates of goods, but if you refit to bulk, it only holds 20T?
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18:24<frosch123>yes
18:25<frosch123>want to know how, or just planning?
18:25<supermop>yes, would be nice
18:26<frosch123>in addition to "capacity" in the "properties" section you can also put a "capacity" into the "graphics" section and link it to a switch
18:27<frosch123>cargo_classes_in_consist then gives you the cargo classed
18:27<frosch123>actually "cargo_classes" is better
18:28<frosch123>you can also check specific cargos via "cargo_type_in_veh"
18:28<frosch123>however, if you add "capacity" to "graphics", do not remove "capacity" from "properties"
18:28<supermop>hmm
18:30<Eddi|zuHause>some people have run into traps with this where the default cargo for purchase menu screwed up their calculations
18:34<supermop>huh
18:35<supermop>also, is it easy to have a param to say, double or halve all capacities?
18:35<Eddi|zuHause>might be a bit tedious
18:35<supermop>vanilla style capacities for trucks are tiny if playing with any other sets
18:36<frosch123>it's a matter of adding "* param_capacity" to all "capacity" definitions in your source
18:36<supermop>that does sound a bit tedious
18:36<frosch123>it entirely depends on your search+replace skills :)
18:37<supermop>but so is all the cargo graphic stuff im doing now
18:37<frosch123>no idea how many vehicles you have
18:37<supermop>not many
18:38<Eddi|zuHause>in CETS i simply have one callback for each possible base capacity
18:38<supermop>4 generations, bus, mail truck, goods truck, open truck, hopper, flatbed, 2 generations of container carrier
18:39<Eddi|zuHause>so if i have 100 vehicle, and each one has a base capacity of 20, 30 or 50, then i put capacity_20_switch, capacity_30_switch or capacity_50_switch
18:39<Eddi|zuHause>then the switches handle the doubling, etc.
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18:50<supermop>huh what lable is lumber in firs?
18:50<supermop>wood products?
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18:51<frosch123>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/code_reference.html#cargos
18:52<frosch123>Timber lumber WDPR
18:52<supermop>ooh timber
18:52<supermop>how british
18:53<supermop>im not drawing vehicle bodies yet, so those are goin to just get shipped in crates
18:55<supermop>hmm zinc
18:56<supermop>i hope that gets shipping in big rolls that just happen to look like steel coils
18:56<supermop>otherwise crates again
19:03<supermop>where i have: loaded: [spriteset_mkii_t_flat_empty, spriteset_mkii_t_flat_full_lumber];
19:03<supermop>can i but a middle one in there for halfway full?
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19:06<Wolf01>I have 2 choices now: try to get me banned from astroneer forums OR ignore and just continue to read only mode as I always do
19:08<supermop>hmm forgot to add sand graphics for open truck
19:08<supermop>maybe open truck should carry sand in crates
19:08<supermop>otherwise too much trouble to shovel it out
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19:10<supermop>frosch123 will that bulk class switch also work to make the default graphic to some pile if class is bulk, instead of crates?
19:16<frosch123>sure
19:16<supermop>i assume andy will add more and more types of ore
19:17<frosch123>if you do 8bpp graphics you can also add recoloring sprites to save on drawing actual sprites
19:17<supermop>idk how to do that
19:18<supermop>also i already drew a pile for iron ore, scrap, coal, and gravel
19:18<supermop>but i could recolor the ore to other ores i guess
19:18<frosch123>you can do that with your drawing program
19:19<frosch123>but you can also tell ottd to do it
19:19<frosch123>which may make it easier for multiple loading stages
19:20<supermop>i can imagine
19:20<supermop>i feel like i am forgetting a truck type
19:21<supermop>oh, livestock and grain hopper
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20:23<Wolf01>'night
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21:58<root>ho
21:58<root>he
21:58<root>hi
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---Logclosed Sun May 07 00:00:40 2017