| --- | Log | opened Sat May 20 00:00:58 2017 |
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| 04:57 | <@planetmaker> | o/ |
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| 05:24 | <Wolf01> | o/ |
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| 09:31 | <supermop_home> | yo |
| 09:31 | <supermop_home> | steam trams, diesel trucks, or bendy buses? |
| 09:33 | <Wolf01> | Zeppelin trams |
| 09:36 | <andythenorth> | o/ |
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| 09:37 | <supermop_home> | andythenorth I am dreading a slippery slope whereby I make an inferior remake of hog or egrvts |
| 09:38 | <supermop_home> | but as is stands I feel trolleybi needs more, bigger vehicles, and conventional ones as well |
| 09:40 | <supermop_home> | ogfx+ is all rigid half tile long vehicles, but I am tempted to add articulated trams and buses, semi-trucks, etc |
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| 09:45 | <@planetmaker> | supermop, not sure that OpenGFX+ needs to stay rigidly to half-tile vehicles. The remade default ones should be for compatibility reasons. But newer additions could feature different lengths, I think |
| 09:45 | <@planetmaker> | IIRC for the trains there's even one engine which changes length to 7/8 in the OGFX+ train set (turbo train) |
| 09:47 | <@planetmaker> | supermop, but consider that the tram and bus stops work "best" (in terms of capacity / through-put) with half-tile vehicles (or full tile). |
| 09:50 | <supermop_home> | planetmaker: yeah, an bunch of 9/8semi trucks could get annoying |
| 09:51 | <supermop_home> | I could make all trams either .5 or 1 tiles depending on if they are bendy, |
| 09:52 | <@planetmaker> | probably it's just a balancing issue in that the longer vehicles should carry more. How long exactly they are then doesn't matter and is more a visual choice |
| 09:53 | <@planetmaker> | Anyhow, a lot of this is a matter of looks, I think. And a visually 9/8 vehicle could probably still be coded as 8/8 with a slight overlap ;) |
| 09:54 | <supermop_home> | for a semi-truck, can the tractor and trailer overlap at the hitch? |
| 09:57 | <andythenorth> | yes |
| 09:57 | <andythenorth> | RH messes with lengths and offsets for semi-trucks |
| 09:57 | <andythenorth> | seems to work fine |
| 10:00 | <supermop_home> | andythenorth so you can draw the hitch extending to rear axle(s) ? |
| 10:04 | <andythenorth> | http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/road-hog/repository/entry/src/graphics/vehicles/powerstock_template.png |
| 10:05 | <supermop_home> | makes sense |
| 10:08 | * | andythenorth shoudl finish fricking FIRS |
| 10:08 | <andythenorth> | should * |
| 10:09 | <supermop_home> | I cant believe I am making a truck set before a train set |
| 10:10 | * | andythenorth did that |
| 10:10 | <andythenorth> | we have enough trains |
| 10:10 | <andythenorth> | also train lengths suck |
| 10:10 | <andythenorth> | so making a set is demoralising |
| 10:11 | * | supermop_home never really like trucks |
| 10:11 | <supermop_home> | always loved trains |
| 10:12 | <supermop_home> | I guess I am doing this out of a desire to force furtherance of nrt |
| 10:13 | <supermop_home> | its illustrative of quirks of ELRD at least |
| 10:13 | <supermop_home> | paradoxically, trolleybuses end up to be the hardest transit to build, |
| 10:13 | <andythenorth> | what’s hard about them? |
| 10:14 | <supermop_home> | have to remove town road |
| 10:14 | <supermop_home> | can't just string up wires over a public street |
| 10:15 | <supermop_home> | so ELRD ends up being most suitable for mining trucks, where the small capacity really shows |
| 10:16 | <supermop_home> | you can 'cheat' by building roadstops on straight road to convert it to ELRD, but corners and intersection require destroying |
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| 10:17 | <supermop_home> | I might add dual mode vehicles to help with running through an ornery town that wont let you rebuild its roads |
| 10:18 | <andythenorth> | can’t overbuild normal road? |
| 10:18 | <supermop_home> | no |
| 10:18 | <supermop_home> | well you can with road stops |
| 10:18 | <supermop_home> | but not with the convert tool |
| 10:19 | <supermop_home> | currently you cannot convert roads owned by others, including towns |
| 10:19 | <andythenorth> | that makes sense somewhat |
| 10:20 | <supermop_home> | otherwise i could convert a towns roads to elrd and not pay upkeep, which is fine, |
| 10:20 | <supermop_home> | but a competitor could come by and downgrade them to dirt or something |
| 10:20 | <andythenorth> | I don’t see any resolution to that |
| 10:20 | <supermop_home> | that kind of griefing is probably livable |
| 10:21 | <supermop_home> | but i think nrt might need support for some kind of hierarchy |
| 10:22 | <supermop_home> | where roads are ranked by their sort order |
| 10:22 | <frosch123> | i think we had a solution |
| 10:22 | <frosch123> | like allow converting town road to anything that is compatible to ROAD |
| 10:23 | <supermop_home> | frosch123that would work |
| 10:23 | <supermop_home> | would be nice if you could enforce that the upgrade must have equal or greater powered ness |
| 10:23 | <supermop_home> | but could live without that |
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| 10:33 | <supermop_home> | or set a property for roads that sets them as town buildable |
| 10:33 | <supermop_home> | and you can upgrade to those? |
| 10:33 | <supermop_home> | idk |
| 10:34 | <andythenorth> | time for new FIRS cargo icons :P |
| 10:35 | <andythenorth> | Cement, Coke, Explosives, Fertiliser, Kaolin, Peat, Pig Iron, Pipe, Quicklime, Slag, Soda Ash, Steel, Sulphur, Vehicle Bodies, Zinc |
| 10:35 | <andythenorth> | supermop_home: feel inspired to draw an icon? o_O ^ |
| 10:49 | <andythenorth> | bbl |
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| 10:56 | <frosch123> | o/ |
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| 10:57 | <nekomaster> | Herpderp |
| 10:57 | <nekomaster> | Anyone around that knows how to code railtypes in NML? |
| 10:59 | <nekomaster> | I was wondering how to add Narrow Gauge railtype to my Nars Add-on set |
| 11:02 | <frosch123> | you add a railtypetranslation table to your grf |
| 11:02 | <frosch123> | and then specfiy the railtype for the vehicles |
| 11:02 | <nekomaster> | I have that |
| 11:02 | <frosch123> | load some other grf which provides narrow gauge and you are done |
| 11:02 | <nekomaster> | I already have Metro support |
| 11:03 | <nekomaster> | I just need the code thingy for it like how theres RAIL, ELRL, MTRO, 3RDR |
| 11:03 | <nekomaster> | would ir be NGRL? |
| 11:03 | <@planetmaker> | what does the newgrf wiki suggest? |
| 11:04 | <@planetmaker> | what do other railtype NewGRFs use? |
| 11:04 | <nekomaster> | I can't find anything |
| 11:04 | <frosch123> | https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/RailtypeLabels |
| 11:04 | <nekomaster> | ahh |
| 11:04 | <nekomaster> | I'm still waking up, so I dont know what to search up |
| 11:16 | <nekomaster> | Thanks for the help guys |
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| 12:39 | <Wolf01> | o/, quak |
| 12:42 | <Wolf01> | Alberth, interested? https://www.packtpub.com/packt/offers/free-learning |
| 12:42 | <Wolf01> | Andy too, maybe |
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| 12:57 | <@Alberth> | nah, have programmed too much Python already :) |
| 12:58 | <@Alberth> | did pickup the robot book yesterday |
| 13:00 | <frosch123> | aren't important books usually named by the color of their cover? |
| 13:02 | <@Alberth> | don't own such books |
| 13:02 | <@Alberth> | I do own the dragon book though, if that counts |
| 13:03 | <@Alberth> | and a few others, but they go by title or authors afaik |
| 13:04 | <@Alberth> | and a whole lot non-famous books :p |
| 13:08 | <quiznilo> | krushia: Buy Tucson Steel™ |
| 13:11 | <frosch123> | @op |
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| 13:12 | -!- | mode/#openttd [-b *!*@*.tor-irc.dnsbl.oftc.net] by frosch123 |
| 13:12 | <@frosch123> | @deop |
| 13:12 | -!- | mode/#openttd [-o frosch123] by DorpsGek |
| 13:15 | <quiznilo> | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_Well |
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| 15:49 | <supermop_home> | yo |
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| 17:12 | <supermop_home> | I don't see a cb in specs for current rail type |
| 17:13 | <supermop_home> | how do I have a switch to increase power/decrease running cost when on ELRD? |
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| 17:17 | <FLHerne> | supermop_home: There's a track_type variable |
| 17:18 | <FLHerne> | No |
| 17:19 | <frosch123> | there is |
| 17:19 | <supermop_home> | current_railtype ? |
| 17:19 | <FLHerne> | current_railtype |
| 17:19 | <supermop_home> | can I use current_roadtype? |
| 17:19 | <frosch123> | https://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/NotRoadTypes#Variables <- there is current_roadtype |
| 17:19 | <frosch123> | you can check it in the "power" callback |
| 17:20 | <supermop_home> | if I ask if it is ELRD, do I also need a list of roads that are potentially compatible? of does the roadtype newgrf handle that |
| 17:22 | <supermop_home> | also just on gut feeling, do you feel that dual mode trolley trucks should come after each of the last two trolley trucks, before, or same time |
| 17:23 | <frosch123> | it only works for exact match |
| 17:23 | <supermop_home> | like if trolley truck generations are 1,2,3,4, should dual mode trucks be 2.5, 3.5, or 3.5, 4.5? |
| 17:24 | <supermop_home> | frosch123 so I need to include every possible electric road i know of? |
| 17:24 | <frosch123> | yes |
| 17:25 | <frosch123> | not sure whether dual-mode works well in game |
| 17:25 | <supermop_home> | well currently i think I am the only person who has made non elrd electric roads, so at least I have complete knowledge |
| 17:25 | <supermop_home> | frosch123 thats te point of trolleybi - to test how well electric RVs actually work |
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| 17:36 | <@planetmaker> | hm... that indeed makes a LARGE list of tracks to check for at the start of vehicle NewGRFs :) |
| 17:36 | <@planetmaker> | But it's basically a one-time setup... write a switch which is called by all vehicles just the same |
| 17:36 | <frosch123> | for trains you just attach two engines to the consist |
| 17:36 | <frosch123> | one regular, one electric |
| 17:37 | <@planetmaker> | Well... a regular also works on electric... no need for two |
| 17:37 | <frosch123> | though, that is kind of only more power, not switching |
| 17:37 | <@planetmaker> | that's handled via the compatible_ and powered_railtype variables, isn't it? |
| 17:38 | <@planetmaker> | in the tracksets |
| 17:38 | <frosch123> | the point is that you can have multiple train engines, but only one rv engine |
| 17:38 | <Wolf01> | Yes, but at consist level in case of trains, for RVs it's extremely experimental |
| 17:38 | <frosch123> | for a single engine, switching does not work for rail engines either |
| 17:39 | <frosch123> | but we could add some new variable to test poweredness for some other rail/road/tram type |
| 17:40 | <Wolf01> | It's already there, just check the existing one |
| 17:40 | <Wolf01> | We should add a table, calculated on grf load |
| 17:41 | <Wolf01> | A sort of reverse powered_roadtype |
| 17:41 | <@planetmaker> | Hm, I can't change power depending on track type for a single vehicle? |
| 17:41 | <supermop_home> | planetmaker presumably not all trucks would get the same power boost though. i was thinking something like a 400hp truck that has 1000hp with electric power, and then the 600 hp truck has 1500hp |
| 17:41 | <frosch123> | Wolf01: newgrf can only check for labels they know |
| 17:41 | <frosch123> | they cannot check for stuff which they do not know |
| 17:41 | <Wolf01> | Newgrfs yes, but the game knows everything |
| 17:42 | <frosch123> | planetmaker: you can, but you have to know the exact tracktype |
| 17:42 | <@planetmaker> | supermop, yes, but I mostly meant the switch "is proper road type" which might return "ok to boost" and "no boost" |
| 17:42 | <frosch123> | planetmaker: supermop wants to check for "is compatible to ELRD", not "is ELRD" |
| 17:42 | <Wolf01> | They could ask via callback something like "I'm roadtype X, am I powered on the roadtypes of the current tile?" |
| 17:42 | <frosch123> | only the latter is currently possible |
| 17:43 | <supermop_home> | Wolf01what do you mean |
| 17:43 | <@planetmaker> | yes... so indeed: make a switch which checks for ELRD, DUAL, ... and returns either "1" or "0". And then in the calling switch - depending on that - set the vehicle-specific boost |
| 17:43 | <@planetmaker> | and when you learn of a new tracktype label which should also act as powered, then add that in that one "is it a compatible road" switch |
| 17:43 | <frosch123> | so, let's add var 63 to the list |
| 17:44 | <@planetmaker> | frosch123, not "compatible" but "powered on" |
| 17:45 | <@planetmaker> | at least that's how I understand his use case? |
| 17:45 | <supermop_home> | pm so I could do "power: boost_switch" |
| 17:45 | <Wolf01> | supermop, I mean that the grf doesn't need to know which roadtypes there are, they ask the game for that, the game just returns true or false by checking between all the combinations of all the grfs |
| 17:45 | <frosch123> | planetmaker: "compatible" and "powered" are equivalent for roadtypes |
| 17:45 | <supermop_home> | and then boost switch asks, "current_roadtype = ???" |
| 17:46 | <@planetmaker> | hm ok :) |
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| 17:46 | <@planetmaker> | supermop, yes something like that |
| 17:46 | <supermop_home> | Wolf01 does the game do anything like that in any other cases? |
| 17:47 | <Wolf01> | I don't know, but we might add callbacks like this for both road and rail |
| 17:49 | <Wolf01> | This might help to make easily even dual type engines for rails |
| 17:49 | <frosch123> | https://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/NotRoadTypes#Vehicle_variable_to_test_.22poweredness.22_for_certain_road.2Ftram.2Frailtype |
| 17:49 | <supermop_home> | like rack engines |
| 17:49 | <supermop_home> | increase TE when on rack rail? |
| 17:50 | <Wolf01> | Wherever you want to use the result on the grf |
| 17:50 | <Wolf01> | Increase TE, speed.. |
| 17:56 | <Wolf01> | I don't think is possible to have the same power of the closures of other languages, but if we can pass a parameter to a function and get a result back then there are a lot of possibilities |
| 17:57 | <Wolf01> | If we can only read, then... well... that's limited |
| 17:59 | <supermop_home> | currently i can do this? |
| 17:59 | <supermop_home> | https://paste.openttdcoop.org/psb6a1gee |
| 18:00 | <Wolf01> | I do a lot of async programming which uses extensively this method, with the right braces :P |
| 18:00 | <Wolf01> | Usually javascript |
| 18:01 | <frosch123> | supermop_home: in the "property" section you must give a constant |
| 18:02 | <frosch123> | then you add another "power"/cost" to the "graphics" section |
| 18:03 | <Wolf01> | The problem is to choose the default values for the property section |
| 18:04 | <supermop_home> | is default the unpowered case, or the powered case? |
| 18:04 | <Wolf01> | Eh, depends on the depot from which you are purchasing the engine |
| 18:05 | <supermop_home> | https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pwtxxsyg0 |
| 18:05 | <supermop_home> | assuming this is a diesel truck first, and an electric truck second |
| 18:06 | <frosch123> | as long as the thing in the graphics section always returns a value, the value in the property section does not matter |
| 18:06 | <frosch123> | it only needs to be some value |
| 18:06 | <frosch123> | "1" would do |
| 18:06 | <Wolf01> | Good then |
| 18:07 | <supermop_home> | so what I have works now, only for elrd? and NRT needs to change to allow it to work on compatible roads? |
| 18:08 | <frosch123> | yes |
| 18:08 | <Wolf01> | Yes, only for ELRD, the problem is that you can't know other roadtypes |
| 18:08 | <Wolf01> | At least not those from other grfs |
| 18:09 | <frosch123> | well, you can add all the types which you know when writing the grf :) |
| 18:09 | <supermop_home> | should I wait until there is a better way? |
| 18:09 | <Wolf01> | Which are just ROAD, ELRD, RAIL, ELRL |
| 18:10 | <supermop_home> | will also need a switch for raising/lowering the pantograph |
| 18:10 | <Wolf01> | Or just guess there are HAUL, HWAY etc |
| 18:12 | <Wolf01> | You need a function like switch(hascatenary(current_roadtype)) |
| 18:13 | <supermop_home> | hmmm |
| 18:13 | <Wolf01> | Or just an if |
| 18:13 | <supermop_home> | that exists? |
| 18:13 | <Wolf01> | I don't think |
| 18:14 | <Wolf01> | If it existed for catenary then it should exist for every other possible feature too, like third rail, rack |
| 18:14 | <supermop_home> | although someone may (mis)use catenary for some decorative thing on roads that has nothing to do with power |
| 18:15 | <Wolf01> | Or do some electrified road without catenary graphics but with a rail |
| 18:15 | <Wolf01> | So your pantograph is useless there |
| 18:17 | <supermop_home> | well presumably whoever makes a 3rd rail road would not set it as compatible with a trolley wire road |
| 18:17 | <supermop_home> | so if we could check some table, it wouldn't be an issue |
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| 18:24 | <Wolf01> | But you can't check the table from the grf, as you don't know anything about other types, and if you can ask the game about that then you can only get a boolean, because you can't assign different values to unknown roadtypes |
| 18:24 | <supermop_home> | but i can't yet ask the game |
| 18:26 | <supermop_home> | if I do enumerate every known electric road type, does my switch then have a return line for each of those? |
| 18:26 | <frosch123> | yes |
| 18:27 | <Wolf01> | And if you encounter an unknown roadtype it just return the default |
| 18:29 | <supermop_home> | did andy make an e-HAUL yet? |
| 18:29 | <Wolf01> | Not as I know |
| 18:30 | <supermop_home> | going to check forums for the other two road sets |
| 18:31 | <Wolf01> | There is another, really evil possibility: hardcode 15 different roadtypes and grfs just change the graphics and costs XD |
| 18:31 | <supermop_home> | ha |
| 18:31 | <Wolf01> | And remove canals, of course |
| 18:31 | <supermop_home> | add 15 canaltypes, none of which are buildable |
| 18:32 | <supermop_home> | I wonder what andy will name e-haul in the future |
| 18:32 | <supermop_home> | wonder if i can guess it |
| 18:33 | <supermop_home> | EHAL? EHUL? |
| 18:33 | <supermop_home> | EHHR? |
| 18:33 | <Wolf01> | ELHL |
| 18:33 | <supermop_home> | EHLR |
| 18:33 | <supermop_home> | oh that's better Wolf01 |
| 18:33 | <frosch123> | HAUL does not allow other roadvehicles |
| 18:33 | <frosch123> | so, no point in checking for it |
| 18:34 | <supermop_home> | frosch123 a future ELHL may allow trolley assist mining trucks |
| 18:34 | <Wolf01> | Only because andy made it so, but if supermop wants to make his own HAUL which allows something other... |
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| 18:35 | <supermop_home> | frosch123 aslo I could add a bunch of scooters, mopeds, and rickshaws that are compatible on both ROAD and HAUL just to mess with him |
| 18:35 | <Wolf01> | Caterpillars on DIRT and HAUL, maybe on ROAD too just to piss off some fast bus lines |
| 18:36 | <supermop_home> | the country roads set makes dirt and haul compatible I think |
| 18:36 | <Wolf01> | HAUL should be able to run on DIRT, not vice versa |
| 18:37 | <Wolf01> | As it opens the possibility to have every possible vehicle on HAUL too, since every ROAD vehicle can travel on DIRT |
| 18:38 | <Wolf01> | I don't even know if that is possible :P |
| 18:38 | <frosch123> | it's the other way around |
| 18:38 | <supermop_home> | I've been thinking of making dirt not compatible with road per se |
| 18:38 | <frosch123> | DIRT vehicles can drive everywhere |
| 18:38 | <frosch123> | your f1 car cannot go on dirt |
| 18:39 | <supermop_home> | frosch123maybe very slowly pushed byy hand |
| 18:39 | <frosch123> | your 5mph DIRT bike can take the highway just fine |
| 18:39 | <frosch123> | the other vehicles will happily slow down behind it |
| 18:39 | <Wolf01> | HAUL: powered->DIRT, ROAD: powered->DIRT? |
| 18:40 | <frosch123> | https://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/NotRoadTypes#Compatibility.2FPoweredness <- it's named OFFR there |
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| 18:41 | <supermop_home> | In my mind dirt =/ off-road |
| 18:41 | <nekomaster> | Herpderp |
| 18:41 | <Wolf01> | Early ROADs were dirt :P |
| 18:41 | <nekomaster> | Drunk Question : Can you change the diesel or steam smoke sprites in NML? |
| 18:41 | <supermop_home> | i can drive slowly on a dirt road in a regular car, but if it is really rough, I need a jeep or a tank |
| 18:41 | <supermop_home> | nekomasterthink so |
| 18:42 | <nekomaster> | or i could just use the diesel smoke effect |
| 18:42 | <nekomaster> | how would I get a steam engine to use diesel smoke? |
| 18:42 | <Wolf01> | Also I really must to bed... I must wake up early |
| 18:42 | <nekomaster> | without changing the class? |
| 18:42 | <Wolf01> | 'night |
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| 18:43 | <supermop_home> | visual_effect_diesel |
| 18:43 | <nekomaster> | This is what I have |
| 18:43 | <nekomaster> | visual_effect_and_powered: visual_effect_and_powered(VISUAL_EFFECT_DISABLE, 0, DISABLE_WAGON_POWER); //Set from graphics file |
| 18:43 | <nekomaster> | where would I put the diesel effect? |
| 18:44 | <supermop_home> | visual_effect: VISUAL_EFFECT_ELECTRIC; |
| 18:44 | <supermop_home> | is what my trolley buses use |
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| 18:46 | <nekomaster> | i tried VISUAL_EFFECT_DIESEL instead of VISUAL_EFFECT_DISABLE and i still get steam |
| 18:46 | <supermop_home> | hmm |
| 18:46 | <supermop_home> | maybe trains work different |
| 18:46 | <supermop_home> | with RVs there really isn't much else that makes them steam/diesel/whatever |
| 18:47 | <nekomaster> | i mean the easiest way is to change the class but that will change the class the passenger cars for color too |
| 18:47 | <supermop_home> | oh yeah RVs don't have that |
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| 18:51 | <nekomaster> | nope, changing the class did not change the steam sprite |
| 18:55 | <nekomaster> | For now, if anyone wants a taster of my steam engines here you go |
| 18:55 | <nekomaster> | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fahhl6r2qy0hhhp/nars_add_on_set.tar?dl=0 |
| 18:55 | <nekomaster> | Its basically a new version of NARS ADD-ON set |
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| 18:58 | <nekomaster> | Oh yeah, and theres a EMD Model 40 in my set already |
| 18:59 | <nekomaster> | Heres what I have with the NARS ADD-ON SET 2CC Now |
| 18:59 | <nekomaster> | https://www.dropbox.com/s/5f4ufet897rlhbu/derp.png?dl=0 |
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| --- | Log | closed Sun May 21 00:00:59 2017 |
