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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-05-20

---Logopened Sat May 20 00:00:58 2017
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09:31<supermop_home>steam trams, diesel trucks, or bendy buses?
09:33<Wolf01>Zeppelin trams
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09:37<supermop_home>andythenorth I am dreading a slippery slope whereby I make an inferior remake of hog or egrvts
09:38<supermop_home>but as is stands I feel trolleybi needs more, bigger vehicles, and conventional ones as well
09:40<supermop_home>ogfx+ is all rigid half tile long vehicles, but I am tempted to add articulated trams and buses, semi-trucks, etc
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09:45<@planetmaker>supermop, not sure that OpenGFX+ needs to stay rigidly to half-tile vehicles. The remade default ones should be for compatibility reasons. But newer additions could feature different lengths, I think
09:45<@planetmaker>IIRC for the trains there's even one engine which changes length to 7/8 in the OGFX+ train set (turbo train)
09:47<@planetmaker>supermop, but consider that the tram and bus stops work "best" (in terms of capacity / through-put) with half-tile vehicles (or full tile).
09:50<supermop_home>planetmaker: yeah, an bunch of 9/8semi trucks could get annoying
09:51<supermop_home>I could make all trams either .5 or 1 tiles depending on if they are bendy,
09:52<@planetmaker>probably it's just a balancing issue in that the longer vehicles should carry more. How long exactly they are then doesn't matter and is more a visual choice
09:53<@planetmaker>Anyhow, a lot of this is a matter of looks, I think. And a visually 9/8 vehicle could probably still be coded as 8/8 with a slight overlap ;)
09:54<supermop_home>for a semi-truck, can the tractor and trailer overlap at the hitch?
09:57<andythenorth>RH messes with lengths and offsets for semi-trucks
09:57<andythenorth>seems to work fine
10:00<supermop_home>andythenorth so you can draw the hitch extending to rear axle(s) ?
10:05<supermop_home>makes sense
10:08*andythenorth shoudl finish fricking FIRS
10:08<andythenorth>should *
10:09<supermop_home>I cant believe I am making a truck set before a train set
10:10*andythenorth did that
10:10<andythenorth>we have enough trains
10:10<andythenorth>also train lengths suck
10:10<andythenorth>so making a set is demoralising
10:11*supermop_home never really like trucks
10:11<supermop_home>always loved trains
10:12<supermop_home>I guess I am doing this out of a desire to force furtherance of nrt
10:13<supermop_home>its illustrative of quirks of ELRD at least
10:13<supermop_home>paradoxically, trolleybuses end up to be the hardest transit to build,
10:13<andythenorth>what’s hard about them?
10:14<supermop_home>have to remove town road
10:14<supermop_home>can't just string up wires over a public street
10:15<supermop_home>so ELRD ends up being most suitable for mining trucks, where the small capacity really shows
10:16<supermop_home>you can 'cheat' by building roadstops on straight road to convert it to ELRD, but corners and intersection require destroying
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10:17<supermop_home>I might add dual mode vehicles to help with running through an ornery town that wont let you rebuild its roads
10:18<andythenorth>can’t overbuild normal road?
10:18<supermop_home>well you can with road stops
10:18<supermop_home>but not with the convert tool
10:19<supermop_home>currently you cannot convert roads owned by others, including towns
10:19<andythenorth>that makes sense somewhat
10:20<supermop_home>otherwise i could convert a towns roads to elrd and not pay upkeep, which is fine,
10:20<supermop_home>but a competitor could come by and downgrade them to dirt or something
10:20<andythenorth>I don’t see any resolution to that
10:20<supermop_home>that kind of griefing is probably livable
10:21<supermop_home>but i think nrt might need support for some kind of hierarchy
10:22<supermop_home>where roads are ranked by their sort order
10:22<frosch123>i think we had a solution
10:22<frosch123>like allow converting town road to anything that is compatible to ROAD
10:23<supermop_home>frosch123that would work
10:23<supermop_home>would be nice if you could enforce that the upgrade must have equal or greater powered ness
10:23<supermop_home>but could live without that
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10:33<supermop_home>or set a property for roads that sets them as town buildable
10:33<supermop_home>and you can upgrade to those?
10:34<andythenorth>time for new FIRS cargo icons :P
10:35<andythenorth>Cement, Coke, Explosives, Fertiliser, Kaolin, Peat, Pig Iron, Pipe, Quicklime, Slag, Soda Ash, Steel, Sulphur, Vehicle Bodies, Zinc
10:35<andythenorth>supermop_home: feel inspired to draw an icon? o_O ^
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10:57<nekomaster>Anyone around that knows how to code railtypes in NML?
10:59<nekomaster>I was wondering how to add Narrow Gauge railtype to my Nars Add-on set
11:02<frosch123>you add a railtypetranslation table to your grf
11:02<frosch123>and then specfiy the railtype for the vehicles
11:02<nekomaster>I have that
11:02<frosch123>load some other grf which provides narrow gauge and you are done
11:02<nekomaster>I already have Metro support
11:03<nekomaster>I just need the code thingy for it like how theres RAIL, ELRL, MTRO, 3RDR
11:03<nekomaster>would ir be NGRL?
11:03<@planetmaker>what does the newgrf wiki suggest?
11:04<@planetmaker>what do other railtype NewGRFs use?
11:04<nekomaster>I can't find anything
11:04<nekomaster>I'm still waking up, so I dont know what to search up
11:16<nekomaster>Thanks for the help guys
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12:39<Wolf01>o/, quak
12:42<Wolf01>Alberth, interested?
12:42<Wolf01>Andy too, maybe
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12:57<@Alberth>nah, have programmed too much Python already :)
12:58<@Alberth>did pickup the robot book yesterday
13:00<frosch123>aren't important books usually named by the color of their cover?
13:02<@Alberth>don't own such books
13:02<@Alberth>I do own the dragon book though, if that counts
13:03<@Alberth>and a few others, but they go by title or authors afaik
13:04<@Alberth>and a whole lot non-famous books :p
13:08<quiznilo>krushia: Buy Tucson Steel™
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17:12<supermop_home>I don't see a cb in specs for current rail type
17:13<supermop_home>how do I have a switch to increase power/decrease running cost when on ELRD?
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17:17<FLHerne>supermop_home: There's a track_type variable
17:19<frosch123>there is
17:19<supermop_home>current_railtype ?
17:19<supermop_home>can I use current_roadtype?
17:19<frosch123> <- there is current_roadtype
17:19<frosch123>you can check it in the "power" callback
17:20<supermop_home>if I ask if it is ELRD, do I also need a list of roads that are potentially compatible? of does the roadtype newgrf handle that
17:22<supermop_home>also just on gut feeling, do you feel that dual mode trolley trucks should come after each of the last two trolley trucks, before, or same time
17:23<frosch123>it only works for exact match
17:23<supermop_home>like if trolley truck generations are 1,2,3,4, should dual mode trucks be 2.5, 3.5, or 3.5, 4.5?
17:24<supermop_home>frosch123 so I need to include every possible electric road i know of?
17:25<frosch123>not sure whether dual-mode works well in game
17:25<supermop_home>well currently i think I am the only person who has made non elrd electric roads, so at least I have complete knowledge
17:25<supermop_home>frosch123 thats te point of trolleybi - to test how well electric RVs actually work
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17:36<@planetmaker>hm... that indeed makes a LARGE list of tracks to check for at the start of vehicle NewGRFs :)
17:36<@planetmaker>But it's basically a one-time setup... write a switch which is called by all vehicles just the same
17:36<frosch123>for trains you just attach two engines to the consist
17:36<frosch123>one regular, one electric
17:37<@planetmaker>Well... a regular also works on electric... no need for two
17:37<frosch123>though, that is kind of only more power, not switching
17:37<@planetmaker>that's handled via the compatible_ and powered_railtype variables, isn't it?
17:38<@planetmaker>in the tracksets
17:38<frosch123>the point is that you can have multiple train engines, but only one rv engine
17:38<Wolf01>Yes, but at consist level in case of trains, for RVs it's extremely experimental
17:38<frosch123>for a single engine, switching does not work for rail engines either
17:39<frosch123>but we could add some new variable to test poweredness for some other rail/road/tram type
17:40<Wolf01>It's already there, just check the existing one
17:40<Wolf01>We should add a table, calculated on grf load
17:41<Wolf01>A sort of reverse powered_roadtype
17:41<@planetmaker>Hm, I can't change power depending on track type for a single vehicle?
17:41<supermop_home>planetmaker presumably not all trucks would get the same power boost though. i was thinking something like a 400hp truck that has 1000hp with electric power, and then the 600 hp truck has 1500hp
17:41<frosch123>Wolf01: newgrf can only check for labels they know
17:41<frosch123>they cannot check for stuff which they do not know
17:41<Wolf01>Newgrfs yes, but the game knows everything
17:42<frosch123>planetmaker: you can, but you have to know the exact tracktype
17:42<@planetmaker>supermop, yes, but I mostly meant the switch "is proper road type" which might return "ok to boost" and "no boost"
17:42<frosch123>planetmaker: supermop wants to check for "is compatible to ELRD", not "is ELRD"
17:42<Wolf01>They could ask via callback something like "I'm roadtype X, am I powered on the roadtypes of the current tile?"
17:42<frosch123>only the latter is currently possible
17:43<supermop_home>Wolf01what do you mean
17:43<@planetmaker>yes... so indeed: make a switch which checks for ELRD, DUAL, ... and returns either "1" or "0". And then in the calling switch - depending on that - set the vehicle-specific boost
17:43<@planetmaker>and when you learn of a new tracktype label which should also act as powered, then add that in that one "is it a compatible road" switch
17:43<frosch123>so, let's add var 63 to the list
17:44<@planetmaker>frosch123, not "compatible" but "powered on"
17:45<@planetmaker>at least that's how I understand his use case?
17:45<supermop_home>pm so I could do "power: boost_switch"
17:45<Wolf01>supermop, I mean that the grf doesn't need to know which roadtypes there are, they ask the game for that, the game just returns true or false by checking between all the combinations of all the grfs
17:45<frosch123>planetmaker: "compatible" and "powered" are equivalent for roadtypes
17:45<supermop_home>and then boost switch asks, "current_roadtype = ???"
17:46<@planetmaker>hm ok :)
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17:46<@planetmaker>supermop, yes something like that
17:46<supermop_home>Wolf01 does the game do anything like that in any other cases?
17:47<Wolf01>I don't know, but we might add callbacks like this for both road and rail
17:49<Wolf01>This might help to make easily even dual type engines for rails
17:49<supermop_home>like rack engines
17:49<supermop_home>increase TE when on rack rail?
17:50<Wolf01>Wherever you want to use the result on the grf
17:50<Wolf01>Increase TE, speed..
17:56<Wolf01>I don't think is possible to have the same power of the closures of other languages, but if we can pass a parameter to a function and get a result back then there are a lot of possibilities
17:57<Wolf01>If we can only read, then... well... that's limited
17:59<supermop_home>currently i can do this?
18:00<Wolf01>I do a lot of async programming which uses extensively this method, with the right braces :P
18:00<Wolf01>Usually javascript
18:01<frosch123>supermop_home: in the "property" section you must give a constant
18:02<frosch123>then you add another "power"/cost" to the "graphics" section
18:03<Wolf01>The problem is to choose the default values for the property section
18:04<supermop_home>is default the unpowered case, or the powered case?
18:04<Wolf01>Eh, depends on the depot from which you are purchasing the engine
18:05<supermop_home>assuming this is a diesel truck first, and an electric truck second
18:06<frosch123>as long as the thing in the graphics section always returns a value, the value in the property section does not matter
18:06<frosch123>it only needs to be some value
18:06<frosch123>"1" would do
18:06<Wolf01>Good then
18:07<supermop_home>so what I have works now, only for elrd? and NRT needs to change to allow it to work on compatible roads?
18:08<Wolf01>Yes, only for ELRD, the problem is that you can't know other roadtypes
18:08<Wolf01>At least not those from other grfs
18:09<frosch123>well, you can add all the types which you know when writing the grf :)
18:09<supermop_home>should I wait until there is a better way?
18:09<Wolf01>Which are just ROAD, ELRD, RAIL, ELRL
18:10<supermop_home>will also need a switch for raising/lowering the pantograph
18:10<Wolf01>Or just guess there are HAUL, HWAY etc
18:12<Wolf01>You need a function like switch(hascatenary(current_roadtype))
18:13<Wolf01>Or just an if
18:13<supermop_home>that exists?
18:13<Wolf01>I don't think
18:14<Wolf01>If it existed for catenary then it should exist for every other possible feature too, like third rail, rack
18:14<supermop_home>although someone may (mis)use catenary for some decorative thing on roads that has nothing to do with power
18:15<Wolf01>Or do some electrified road without catenary graphics but with a rail
18:15<Wolf01>So your pantograph is useless there
18:17<supermop_home>well presumably whoever makes a 3rd rail road would not set it as compatible with a trolley wire road
18:17<supermop_home>so if we could check some table, it wouldn't be an issue
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18:24<Wolf01>But you can't check the table from the grf, as you don't know anything about other types, and if you can ask the game about that then you can only get a boolean, because you can't assign different values to unknown roadtypes
18:24<supermop_home>but i can't yet ask the game
18:26<supermop_home>if I do enumerate every known electric road type, does my switch then have a return line for each of those?
18:27<Wolf01>And if you encounter an unknown roadtype it just return the default
18:29<supermop_home>did andy make an e-HAUL yet?
18:29<Wolf01>Not as I know
18:30<supermop_home>going to check forums for the other two road sets
18:31<Wolf01>There is another, really evil possibility: hardcode 15 different roadtypes and grfs just change the graphics and costs XD
18:31<Wolf01>And remove canals, of course
18:31<supermop_home>add 15 canaltypes, none of which are buildable
18:32<supermop_home>I wonder what andy will name e-haul in the future
18:32<supermop_home>wonder if i can guess it
18:33<supermop_home>EHAL? EHUL?
18:33<supermop_home>oh that's better Wolf01
18:33<frosch123>HAUL does not allow other roadvehicles
18:33<frosch123>so, no point in checking for it
18:34<supermop_home>frosch123 a future ELHL may allow trolley assist mining trucks
18:34<Wolf01>Only because andy made it so, but if supermop wants to make his own HAUL which allows something other...
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18:35<supermop_home>frosch123 aslo I could add a bunch of scooters, mopeds, and rickshaws that are compatible on both ROAD and HAUL just to mess with him
18:35<Wolf01>Caterpillars on DIRT and HAUL, maybe on ROAD too just to piss off some fast bus lines
18:36<supermop_home>the country roads set makes dirt and haul compatible I think
18:36<Wolf01>HAUL should be able to run on DIRT, not vice versa
18:37<Wolf01>As it opens the possibility to have every possible vehicle on HAUL too, since every ROAD vehicle can travel on DIRT
18:38<Wolf01>I don't even know if that is possible :P
18:38<frosch123>it's the other way around
18:38<supermop_home>I've been thinking of making dirt not compatible with road per se
18:38<frosch123>DIRT vehicles can drive everywhere
18:38<frosch123>your f1 car cannot go on dirt
18:39<supermop_home>frosch123maybe very slowly pushed byy hand
18:39<frosch123>your 5mph DIRT bike can take the highway just fine
18:39<frosch123>the other vehicles will happily slow down behind it
18:39<Wolf01>HAUL: powered->DIRT, ROAD: powered->DIRT?
18:40<frosch123> <- it's named OFFR there
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18:41<supermop_home>In my mind dirt =/ off-road
18:41<Wolf01>Early ROADs were dirt :P
18:41<nekomaster>Drunk Question : Can you change the diesel or steam smoke sprites in NML?
18:41<supermop_home>i can drive slowly on a dirt road in a regular car, but if it is really rough, I need a jeep or a tank
18:41<supermop_home>nekomasterthink so
18:42<nekomaster>or i could just use the diesel smoke effect
18:42<nekomaster>how would I get a steam engine to use diesel smoke?
18:42<Wolf01>Also I really must to bed... I must wake up early
18:42<nekomaster>without changing the class?
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18:43<nekomaster>This is what I have
18:43<nekomaster>visual_effect_and_powered: visual_effect_and_powered(VISUAL_EFFECT_DISABLE, 0, DISABLE_WAGON_POWER); //Set from graphics file
18:43<nekomaster>where would I put the diesel effect?
18:44<supermop_home> visual_effect: VISUAL_EFFECT_ELECTRIC;
18:44<supermop_home>is what my trolley buses use
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18:46<nekomaster>i tried VISUAL_EFFECT_DIESEL instead of VISUAL_EFFECT_DISABLE and i still get steam
18:46<supermop_home>maybe trains work different
18:46<supermop_home>with RVs there really isn't much else that makes them steam/diesel/whatever
18:47<nekomaster>i mean the easiest way is to change the class but that will change the class the passenger cars for color too
18:47<supermop_home>oh yeah RVs don't have that
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18:51<nekomaster>nope, changing the class did not change the steam sprite
18:55<nekomaster>For now, if anyone wants a taster of my steam engines here you go
18:55<nekomaster>Its basically a new version of NARS ADD-ON set
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18:58<nekomaster>Oh yeah, and theres a EMD Model 40 in my set already
18:59<nekomaster>Heres what I have with the NARS ADD-ON SET 2CC Now
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---Logclosed Sun May 21 00:00:59 2017