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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-06-10

---Logopened Sat Jun 10 00:00:27 2017
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03:05<andythenorth>o/
03:20<@Alberth>o/
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05:06<Wolf01>o/
05:07<Arveen2>moin wolf
05:13<Wolf01>Good job V453000 for the FFF#194, steam browser can't handle it, I had to read it on firefox XD
05:16<Arveen2>hmm
05:16<Arveen2>i can open it within steam
05:16<Wolf01>Yeah, but I can't scroll the page
05:16<Wolf01>Too resource heavy
05:17<Arveen2>nice there is a screenshot of some source code
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05:29<andythenorth>is it?
05:29<Wolf01>Nope
05:34<andythenorth>why not?
05:35<Wolf01>Kickbanned cousin because he wanted me to make his website for yesterday
05:37<Wolf01>"You can't come here after 1.5 years of teasing me to make the website and want it done in a week, I'll start it in september, take or leave"
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06:00<@Alberth>o/
06:02<@Alberth>you should have charged money for each month earlier :)
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09:41<andythenorth>well
09:41<frosch123>moo
09:43<andythenorth>such
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09:46<frosch123>will "such" be the grfid of fish4?
09:47<andythenorth>could be
09:47<andythenorth>or FIRS 3
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09:50<frosch123>or bandit 3: such useful coal haulers
09:57<andythenorth>fair
09:57<andythenorth>I considered making all HAUL vehicles non-articulated
09:58<andythenorth>so they can use drive-in stops
09:58<andythenorth>but….why? :P
09:58<Wolf01>I have some spare time on my spare time, does somebody want to help me to fix some more things on RATT?
09:58<frosch123>what purpose do drive-in stops have?
09:59<andythenorth>aren’t they there to deceive some people into thinking they have higher throughput?
09:59<andythenorth>I used to use them because they’re “more efficient"
10:00<frosch123>how did you get the idea?
10:00<frosch123>i mean i never measured it, but it sounds unlikely
10:03<Wolf01>frosch123, looking at https://github.com/andythenorth/NotRoadTypes/tree/can-build-vehicle-infrastructure
10:08<frosch123>the behaviour of ExistingRoadSubTypesForRoadType does not match it's description
10:09<Wolf01>Ok, lets work on it
10:11<andythenorth>frosch123: it has 3 bays, eh? Not 2 :P
10:11<frosch123>3 bays?
10:11<andythenorth>stops
10:11<andythenorth>there are some problems with this idea, but people often count wrong
10:11<frosch123>drive-in has 2 bays, and a bottleneck for driving in and out
10:12<frosch123>drive-through have two independent directions for enter/exit, no bottleneck, and as many bays as the vehicles are short
10:12<Wolf01>"Return a filtered list of RoadSubTypes for the given RoadType, based on company and if to check for their introduction date"
10:13<frosch123>Wolf01: if you pass a valid company, "any_date" is not even used
10:14<Wolf01>There it misses a check
10:15<Wolf01>Could I do this? return AddDateIntroducedRoadTypes(rt, company->avail_roadtypes[rt], any_date ? MAX_DAY : _date);
10:16<frosch123>i would rather think that "any_date = true" mans to ignore "c"
10:16<frosch123>*means
10:16<frosch123>if something is available to some company at some point it time, it will be available to everyone at some time
10:18<frosch123>CanBuildVehicleInfrastructure has the same problem
10:19<Wolf01>Do roadtypes cease to be available to company when all vehicles for it expire?
10:19<frosch123>it has like 4 input parameters (including _game_mode and disable_unsuitable_building"), but the function itself looks implausible to use them correclty in all cases
10:20<frosch123>company_avail is set to zero
10:20<frosch123>but, i have no idea
10:20<frosch123>i would have to look it up myself
10:21<Wolf01>I'll make a document with all the cases I can remember and think about
10:23<frosch123>GetCompanyRailtypes seems to check both company_avail and intro_date
10:23<frosch123>so, it uses company_avail to detect preview, but does not considere expiring vehicles
10:23<frosch123>so railtypes remain available
10:23<frosch123>possibly it's broken for roadtypes
10:29<Wolf01>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pgtrp31sc/dunpcy
10:30<frosch123>you added a password :p
10:30<Wolf01>Meh
10:30<Wolf01>Retry
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10:31<Wolf01>Stupid browser filling password fields
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10:31<Wolf01>I didn't even check the "mark as private"
10:31<frosch123>are those the rules from railtypes, or did you invent them?
10:32<Wolf01>As railtypes can't do half of those things I invented them
10:32<frosch123>gamescripts dintinguish deity-mode and company-mode
10:32<frosch123>deity-mode should be equal to scenario editor
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10:33<Wolf01>Ok, so deity-mode is company=null, any_date=true, while company mode is the opposite
10:33<frosch123>Wolf01: i think with making roadtype unavailable when you sell the last one of them, you make a lot of things more complicated, and inconssitent to trains
10:34<frosch123>i always went for "make it work exactly like railtypes"
10:34<frosch123>possbily with the deity/scenedit extension
10:35<Wolf01>Yes, that's what I want to achieve, currently I don't think RATT make available a subtype without vehicles
10:36<Wolf01>Deity is completely broken on base, and less broken with this patch
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10:37<peter1138>hi
10:37<Wolf01>o/
10:38<Wolf01>Currently RATT is "can you build ROAD? Ok, you can build every subtype, same for TRAM"
10:40<supermop_home>hmm i can't build tram right now
10:41<Wolf01>Really?
10:41<supermop_home>I only have one tram in my grf
10:41<supermop_home>tramtype: ELRL
10:42<supermop_home>tramtype translation table is { RAIL, ELRL }
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10:47<Wolf01>Could I remove the "any_date" param and just check if the company is valid? Or there is an explicit case which needs to filter only subtypes available at the current date for deity?
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11:05<Wolf01>o/
11:05<__ln___>btw, thank you united kingdom for your gift to 100-year-old finland. i watched it live and it was cool.
11:05<Wolf01>https://gist.github.com/Wolfolo/227add4fe83c57b165d4e1a84576e22e I tried with removing the any_date, as I always set it accordingly with the company, so it didn't make any difference
11:20<Wolf01>And I renamed it to CanBuildRoadTypeInfrastructure and moved to road.cpp as the only relation to vehicles is an interal loop
11:22<supermop_home>the tram still thinks it is a bus
11:23<frosch123>you need to set the tram flag in the misc_flags
11:23<frosch123>it's the only thing that distinguishes tram from roadvehicles
11:24<supermop_home>hmm
11:24<supermop_home>the tramtype doesn't do that?
11:25<Wolf01>Nope, and I can't think why XD
11:25<frosch123>no, possibly nml could be extended to check that stuff, but it's likely not easy
11:26<Wolf01>Also I'm an idiot, I forgot to commit the staged changes
11:26<supermop_home>also my articulated buses have smoke coking from both parts... should look in to fixing that
11:35<Wolf01>Ok, pushed changes, the usage of those 2 functions should be more clear now, they still need fixes
11:40<Wolf01>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=75637&p=1187581#p1187581 ???
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11:54<Wolf01>Mmmh, I found a nice problem: I can't add a station to the vehicle schedule, but why? The first thought is that is not reachable by the pathfinder, but no error popup tell me it
11:55<Wolf01>The second problem is that it was a freight station
11:55<andythenorth>NML could grow ‘FEAT_TRAMS’, but as a method of eliminating a single flag, it seems heavy-handed
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12:00<Wolf01>supermop_home, pylons on the background for asphalt paved road with overhead wire are drawn over the vehicles
12:01<Wolf01>I don't know if it was fixed, but I think I have the latest unspooled grf
12:03<Wolf01>http://imgur.com/HPyCdRD
12:26<__ln___>i find this a bit more interesting: http://imgur.com/a/9biQh
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12:28<__ln___>(photo taken by me)
12:28<Wolf01>Airshow?
12:29<__ln___>indeed
12:37<V453000>andythenorth: Use python they said. What could possibly go wrong I said. https://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-194
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12:46<@Alberth>ha, very nice V :)
12:47<@Alberth>automagic generation always wins :p
12:48<andythenorth>V453000: now generate the python that generates the lua ;)
12:51<Wolf01>Automatic factorio is automatic
12:53<andythenorth>what about automatic FIRS?
12:53<andythenorth>Alberth: what to do about these map colours eh? :)
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13:01<frosch123>V453000: the "generate .bat with python" definitely made me think of andy
13:02<frosch123>anyway, i expect a factorio->grf converter next
13:04<@Alberth>the green thingie? not use it? :p
13:05<@Alberth>can't have 32bpp industry-map colours due to compatibility, probably
13:06<@Alberth>less industries works too
13:06<@Alberth>same-ish colours between non-conflicting chains perhaps?
13:06<frosch123>hmm, there are formulas to compute the "visual distance" between colors
13:07<frosch123>maybe we should write a python script to find the colors which stays ways from all the map colours and from themself each other
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13:08<@Alberth>you may not have enough colours then
13:08<@Alberth>ideally you'd take the industry-chain into account, probably
13:09<frosch123>chains cross a lot
13:10<@Alberth>declare it as bad chain :p
13:10<frosch123>how about coloring primary, secondary, tertiary, harbour?
13:10<@Alberth>NML error: Cannot compute industry map colour
13:10<frosch123>so you can start your game with the greenish industries
13:11<@Alberth>finding a specific source or destination becomes tricky?
13:11*andythenorth wondered about contrast checking in nml https://www.w3.org/TR/2000/WD-AERT-20000426#color-contrast
13:11<andythenorth>I’ve already got the palette computed as RGB
13:11<frosch123>there is no point in doing it in nml
13:11<frosch123>you only need to do it once, and the put a table onto the wiki: use these colors in this order
13:11<@Alberth>true, but fun :)
13:12<andythenorth>I could do it in the FIRS compile
13:12<andythenorth>is there a newgrf var for ‘current map colour’ :P
13:12<frosch123>grf parameter :)
13:13<frosch123>would also fit a color blind mode
13:13<frosch123>i believe there were also formulas for color distance with typical color vision defects
13:13<andythenorth>yes
13:13<@Alberth>contrast reduces to conversion to gray-scale, wouldn't it?
13:13<andythenorth>we could do a high contrast OpenTTD :P
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13:31<andythenorth>hmm where are the map colours in src?
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13:32<frosch123>src/table/heightmap_colours.h
13:32*andythenorth would not have found that by guessing :)
13:32<frosch123>they are no rgb codes
13:33<frosch123>it's tables of 4 colours for dithering
13:33<andythenorth>which 4?
13:36*andythenorth looks
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13:37<frosch123>i looked for a color difference video on yt
13:37<frosch123>i came to one that is a machine-read wiki page
13:38<andythenorth>those are weird
13:38<andythenorth>like machine-read news voiceovers
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27878 trunk/src/lang/vietnamese.txt (2017-06-10 19:45:37 +0200 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from Eints:
13:45<@DorpsGek>vietnamese: 7 changes by nglekhoi
13:48<andythenorth>maybe I should just sample the map colours, and write a guard :)
13:48<frosch123>ah, there is a "colormath" python module
13:49<frosch123>so, i do not need to understand the formulas
13:50*andythenorth looks
13:50<frosch123>let's try to find the theoretically best colors :)
13:51<andythenorth>could OpenTTD just assign the colours? :P
13:52<frosch123>if we find a good result, we could add a nml built-in function
13:52<andythenorth>have to account for towns also :)
13:52<frosch123>good_colour(1)..good_colour(200)
13:52<andythenorth>oh water also :P
13:53<frosch123>i'll only use land
13:53<frosch123>you can figure out water yourself for water industries
13:53*andythenorth considers counting how many unique colours in FIRS
13:54<andythenorth>there is a lot of reuse (sort by colour) http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/code_reference.html#industries
13:55<andythenorth>44 colours by counting on my fingers :P
13:56<andythenorth>for 80 industries
13:57<supermop_home>Wolf01 the pylon issue is known
13:58<supermop_home>the problem is, I have the 'top' of the pylon on the front layer
13:59<supermop_home>because on a junction or corner, a pylon on the east or west corner is conceivably either front or back depending on route RV takes through the tile
14:00<supermop_home>I had hoped that the top half of the pylon would be high enough to not show up on top of RVS passing 'in front' of the pylon
14:00<frosch123>wtf... apparently this library knows so many diifferent color representations
14:00<frosch123>that they are using graph algorithms to find conversion paths between them
14:00<supermop_home>but unfortunately most RVs are taller than I thought
14:01<andythenorth>frosch123: that is wtf :P
14:03<supermop_home>if we can get more control over draw order/location of pylons could fix it that way
14:07<andythenorth>Alberth: I’ve lost your link showing the disappearing peatlands :)
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14:21<@Alberth>in-game, or in RL?
14:21<andythenorth>IRL
14:21<andythenorth>did you post it here?
14:22<@Alberth>if you've seen it, likely :)
14:22<@Alberth>MB posted some in the forum, which were nice too
14:23<andythenorth>I mean the one showing the map colour bug, sorry :)
14:23<andythenorth>English lacks precision
14:23<andythenorth>I can’t reproduce it
14:23<@Alberth>http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/peatfields.png
14:23<andythenorth>ah, heightmap is on
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14:24<@Alberth>every now and then you have to manoeuvre around a heap of tiles :)
14:24<@Alberth>or in this case, move up :p
14:25<@Alberth>my pyrite mines were at the wrong side of a mountain iirc
14:25<andythenorth>pyrite mine has horrible contrast on green map
14:26<andythenorth>I am 100% NOT red-green colour blind, but I can hardly see it
14:26<@Alberth>ah, right, for me it's very visible :)
14:27<@Alberth>reading the name of the industry at the legend is becoming difficult though
14:34<andythenorth>any reason? o_O
14:37<@Alberth>letters are too small to read without glasses :p
14:37<@Alberth>it's very weird when you notice you can't quite focus any more to read details
14:38*andythenorth has glasses :P
14:38<andythenorth>you have original base set font?
14:38<@Alberth>yep
14:38<andythenorth>and 2x UI zoom?
14:38<@Alberth>or at least, something equally small :p
14:39<@Alberth>no zoom, just 1x
14:39<andythenorth>ha
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14:54<frosch123>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pbmoxuslj <- how to validate?
14:55<frosch123>i guess i should generate a html page or something
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14:55<andythenorth>:)
14:55<frosch123>hmm, found a bug
14:55<andythenorth>seems FIRS forest is 100% invisible on dark green map
15:11<@Alberth>that's why it can flash white :)
15:16<frosch123>https://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/texts/industrymap_green.html https://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/texts/industrymap_darkgreen.html https://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/texts/industrymap_violet.html https://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/texts/industrymap_green_darkgreen_violet.html
15:17<frosch123>the result certainly looks weird to me, but not obviously wrong
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15:25<andythenorth>lots of browns eh
15:27<andythenorth>I am suspicious about 0x51
15:27<andythenorth>seems that would disappear on dark green
15:27<frosch123>i am assigning the colors in greedy mode
15:27<frosch123>so it picks some red first, which then downgrades all other reds
15:27<frosch123>it may be smarter to pick two different reds first
15:27<andythenorth>can I just assign them to FIRS industries by ID :P
15:28<andythenorth>industry 0 gets first from list
15:28<frosch123>andythenorth: 0x51 is pretty far down the list
15:28<andythenorth>oh it’s a distance thing?
15:28<andythenorth>ok
15:28<frosch123>all lists contain all the colors which are not map colors
15:29<andythenorth>feel like converting the hex to dec? :P
15:29<frosch123>the ones at the bottom are just very bad
15:29<andythenorth>I’m intrigued how close I got to optimum by guessing
15:29<frosch123>you can't compare that with that list
15:30<frosch123>like the last list has b7 in first position
15:30<frosch123>if you would have picked b6 first, then b7 would be far down the list
15:30<frosch123>b6 and b7 are almost the same color, so once you have picked one, the other one is bad
15:33<andythenorth>I see :)
15:39<frosch123>reload page
15:39<frosch123>i added decimal, and the CIE2000 distance score
15:41<andythenorth>neat
15:42<andythenorth>now how to apply it :)
15:42<frosch123>cound how many industry you have in each climate
15:42<frosch123>then pick the n-th first from the all-map-colors table?
15:44<andythenorth>hmm could do
15:44<andythenorth>means their colour varies per economy
15:44<andythenorth>does original TTD do that too?
15:45<frosch123>original ttd hardly shares industries
15:45<frosch123>but they do not change colors
15:45<frosch123>hmm, so, 0x68 and 0x46 look weird to me
15:46<andythenorth>why?
15:46<frosch123>they are almost the same, still so far up the table
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15:48<andythenorth>fair point
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15:49<frosch123>well, the formula says they have a distance of 14.977
15:50<frosch123>so, blame the formula? or ban dark colors?
15:50<frosch123>or accept it?
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15:53<andythenorth>accept it I think
15:54<andythenorth>it hasn’t favoured many of the brights
15:59<frosch123>https://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/texts/color_distances.html <- possibly hard to read :p
16:00<andythenorth>quite cool though
16:00<frosch123>maybe i should add "black" to the map colors, to disencourage dark
16:02<andythenorth>worth trying
16:02<frosch123>reload, looks better to me
16:03<andythenorth>yup
16:03<andythenorth>now to also distinguish from town :)
16:03<andythenorth>there is a reason all FIRS town industries are white or yellow :P
16:04<frosch123>i think you may have to do that manually :p
16:05<andythenorth>I could set colours automatically, unless over-ridden manually
16:06<frosch123>add tags to colors: on sea, on land, in town
16:09<andythenorth>multiple lists?
16:10<frosch123>no idea whether you want to use the same color for two industries if one is on land and the other on sea
16:14<andythenorth>sometimes
16:14<andythenorth>unique colours isn’t a goal I’ve pursued
16:14<andythenorth>I try to make them unique in a chain, and try to keep each economy looking nice as far as possible
16:20<andythenorth>now all I have to do is automate it :)
16:20<V453000>factorio->grf conversion sounds like a challenge "D
16:20<V453000>:D
16:21<andythenorth>what, make grfs in F?
16:21<frosch123>code newgrf in factories
16:22<frosch123>andythenorth: V added a picture to his blog, which showed the art pipepline as a f factory
16:23<frosch123>even "kurzgesagt" just made a video about automatisation
16:23<andythenorth>factory factory
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16:42<andythenorth>frosch123: I’ll try automating now :P
16:42<andythenorth>based on https://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/texts/industrymap_green_darkgreen_violet.html
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16:46*frosch123 is curious how it will actually turn out in-game
16:49*andythenorth shall find out soon
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17:03<andythenorth>frosch123: pushed
17:04<frosch123>all economies?
17:04<andythenorth>yup
17:04<andythenorth>it’s global
17:04<andythenorth>industry id => colour position in list
17:04<andythenorth>quite crude
17:07<frosch123>docs do not reflect it?
17:08<andythenorth>they do here :) http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/code_reference.html#industries
17:09<frosch123>didn't refresh hard enough i guess
17:09<frosch123>lots of red, lots of yellow
17:10<frosch123>very little blue
17:10<frosch123>(when using steeltown)
17:11<frosch123>maybe you are right with town colors
17:11<frosch123>i have a stockyard next to a town
17:11<frosch123>which is hard to see
17:12<frosch123>but that restricts colors even more
17:12<frosch123>andythenorth: do you have "show height" enabled on the industry map?
17:12<andythenorth>currently yes
17:13<andythenorth>usually not
17:13<frosch123>if disables we could use more colors
17:13<andythenorth>I see no use for it on industry view
17:13<andythenorth>it doesn’t tell me anything I need to know
17:13<frosch123>i have the map always set to industry view
17:14<frosch123>the other map types are useless to me
17:14<frosch123>in hilly terrain i toggle the height to estimate the best route
17:15<andythenorth>fair
17:15<andythenorth>well I’m not going to revert this
17:15<andythenorth>but I’m not convinced it’s finished yet :)
17:16<frosch123>it may require some manual assignment
17:16<frosch123>for town industries
17:16<frosch123>for sea industries
17:16<andythenorth>over-rides
17:16<frosch123>also it makes sense to pick similar colors for industries which you can distinguish by their size
17:16<frosch123>like 1x3 vs. 8x5 can have similar colors
17:17<frosch123>otoh, maybe small industries should use the more obnoxious colors
17:18<frosch123>if a industry has only a few pixels on the map, it's hard to find
17:18<frosch123>it also makes sense to use the colors with higher scores for those industries which appear in multiple climates
17:19<frosch123>so you use the good colors in most economies instead of skipping them
17:19<frosch123>s/climates/economies/
17:21<andythenorth>previously I have pretty much used those rules for manual picking :)
17:22<frosch123>yeah, i basically suggest to use the first n colours from the list, and then assigning them manually :p
17:22<frosch123>but i guess only assigning a subset manually is also fine
17:25<andythenorth>I could repeat :P
17:25<andythenorth>it’s rarely a problem
17:26<andythenorth>first 40 or so :P
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21:34<Wolf01>'night
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---Logclosed Sun Jun 11 00:00:29 2017