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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-06-18

---Logopened Sun Jun 18 00:00:38 2017
00:12<supermop_home>only think I can think thay may have caused it is that I've now added ids to every RV
00:12<supermop_home>maybe they are too big or something
00:37<supermop_home>item(FEAT_ROADVEHS, item_f1_mail, 010105) {... maybe 6 digits is too many
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03:03<andythenorth>o/
03:15<@Alberth>o/
03:16<@Alberth>critical customers at home eh? :)
03:40<andythenorth>yup
03:48<Eddi|zuHause>supermop_home: IDs are 16 bit, and you can only use 14 bit if you use the articulated vehicle callback
03:49<Eddi|zuHause>and that error needs a better message
03:51<Eddi|zuHause>so the highest usable number is 16383
03:52<Eddi|zuHause>also, leading 0 probably has special meaning like "octal number"
04:22<andythenorth>bbl
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06:06<Wolf01>o/
06:14<@Alberth>bbl
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06:25<Wolf01>https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/awnqWE1_460sv.mp4 LOL
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06:41<andythenorth>isn’t it
06:41<Wolf01>Happyness?
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06:44<andythenorth>sun is out
06:44<andythenorth>why not
06:44<andythenorth>is it roadtypes?
06:45<Wolf01>Maybe, I still don't know how what to do
07:28<Wolf01>https://it.slashdot.org/story/17/06/17/0458217/what-happens-when-software-companies-are-liable-for-security-vulnerabilities
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08:04<andythenorth>daft story
08:14<Wolf01>Mmmmh, what is happening with internet? I can watch fullhd videos on youtube but I have 1.5s lag
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08:32<@Alberth>o/
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08:50<andythenorth>lo Alberth
08:51<LordAro>o/
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08:58<andythenorth>ok so nobody has drawn the new FIRS cargo icons :(
08:58*andythenorth will have to do it eh?
08:59<andythenorth>or fix the makefile
08:59<andythenorth>hmm
08:59<andythenorth>makefile blocks releases currently
09:05<andythenorth>Alberth: is now any good to help fix FIRS makefile? o_O
09:14<@Alberth>what's the problem?
09:15<@Alberth>someone added 50 commits :p
09:16<supermop_home>hmm how am I going to automatically change formatting of 300 numbers
09:18<@Alberth>from what to what?
09:19<andythenorth>Alberth: afaict, Bananas requires readme.txt, license.txt and changelog.txt in the root of the tar
09:19<andythenorth>and won’t allow any other files except the grf
09:19<@Alberth>k
09:20<andythenorth>but the FIRS compile nests those things inside docs/
09:20<andythenorth>they need picked out, or FIRS needs to change assumptions (either is fine)
09:22<@Alberth>argh, why is it named "firs.tar"
09:22<@Alberth>ever tried having 2 firs-es in one directory?
09:24<Eddi|zuHause>supermop_home: with a code generator
09:28<supermop_home>Alberth 6 digit numbers to 5 digit
09:29<andythenorth>Alberth: I wondered why it doesn’t use the version number
09:30<@Alberth>so global substitution of \b\d(\d\d\d\d\d)\b to \1 ? ( "\b" is begin or end, "\d" is a digit, stuff between "(".. ")" is collected and copied with \1 )
09:31<@Alberth>maybe you don't want to discard any 6th digit?, but \b0(\d\d\d\d\d)\b instead (most significant digit must be 0 )
09:32<@Alberth>a bit more simple minded, search/replace " 0" to " " ?
09:33<supermop_home>actually change all leading 010 to 2, 020 to 3, 030 to 4 will probably work
09:33<@Alberth>andy, I am pretty sure my Makefile did have a version number :)
09:34<@Alberth>regular expression search/replace
09:34<supermop_home>number is [waytype][power source][type, 2 digits][length][generation]
09:35<@Alberth>why don't you use letters?
09:35<@Alberth>would seem more readable?
09:35<supermop_home>don't know if i can in the numerical id
09:35<@Alberth>not likely :p
09:35<supermop_home>eddi says 16000 ish is biggest can be
09:35<supermop_home>so assuming that is base 10
09:36<@Alberth>@calc 2**14
09:36<@DorpsGek>Alberth: 16384
09:36<andythenorth>oh you hit the articulated RV ID limit? o_O
09:37<supermop_home>but can combine way and power, eg 123 for diesel, electric, bimode RVS, 456 for trams
09:37<@Alberth>you can store the info in bits, which has a higher information density, but that's not quite readable unless you use hexadecimal notation
09:38<@Alberth>and have some experience reading bits from such numbers :)
09:38<supermop_home>making type 1 digit is possible but means i cant add anymore types in future like for hot metal or containers
09:39<andythenorth>supermop: are you assigning meaning to the numeric IDs? o_O
09:43<supermop_home>andythenorth yes
09:44<supermop_home>I feel compelled to
09:44<andythenorth>don’t :)
09:44<andythenorth>really
09:44<andythenorth>I had to manually fix that in my sets too many times
09:44<andythenorth>start at 1 and work up
09:44<supermop_home>though I may just omit all of them
09:46<Eddi|zuHause>well, i did advise against it...
09:46<supermop_home>currently they are only used to order vehicles by some artificial sense of similarness
09:47<Eddi|zuHause>really, there is neither need nor use for that
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09:48<andythenorth>definitely, just count up from 1, in blocks of 10
09:48<@Alberth>andythenorth: what should stay in docs? just "html" and "index.html" ?
09:48<andythenorth>Road Hog does it (end of the page) http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/road-hog/push/LATEST/docs/html/code_reference.html
09:48<andythenorth>Alberth: unsure :)
09:48<Eddi|zuHause>and unless you're worried about loading different versions of the grf, then the IDs are mostly irrelevant
09:48*andythenorth wonders if there should be a single ‘compiled’ dir for all the output
09:49<andythenorth>spamming the root dir with misc files and dirs seems untidy
09:49<Eddi|zuHause>that's usually called "build"
09:49<andythenorth>I’m also not sure if the .dotall file is final output, or intermediate
09:50<andythenorth>sorry :)
09:50<Eddi|zuHause>"bin" might be inappropriate
09:50*andythenorth wasn’t 100% responsible for the docs, there is a lot of historical facts here
09:50<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: we're discussing grf tar content :)
09:50<supermop_home>I guess I can use regular expression replace to replace all ", ......)" to ")"
09:50<Eddi|zuHause>sure
09:51<@Alberth>you may want to limit content of the "....."
09:51<andythenorth>hm
09:51<Eddi|zuHause>\d or something
09:51<@Alberth>in particular not allow that to be "," :p
09:51<Eddi|zuHause>", \d{6})"
09:51<Eddi|zuHause>or so
09:51<andythenorth>is this the issue here? The format for distribution isn’t the format we can distribute on bananas
09:52<Eddi|zuHause>make bundle_bananas?
09:52<andythenorth>the distribution should contain the docs, including html docs
09:52<andythenorth>but we don’t distribute the distribution
09:52<andythenorth>we distribute something else
09:52<andythenorth>so who needs the distribution at all?
09:53<Eddi|zuHause>that's probably the wrong question
09:53<@Alberth>hmm, I have no idea what bananas expects
09:53<andythenorth>it’s quite hard to test :)
09:54<supermop_home>ok
09:54<andythenorth>as the only way to find out is to try uploading things
09:54<supermop_home>now it compiles
09:54<andythenorth>which is somewhat committed :P
09:54<andythenorth>seems musa could also exclude files from the bananas upload
09:54<andythenorth>but I didn’t explore that option
09:55<@Alberth>I have several grfs that only have a directory in the root
09:55<andythenorth>all of our technological future will be trying to reverse engineer legacy systems that are live in production :P
09:55<andythenorth>via their web interface
09:55<@Alberth>people have to learn to just ditch old crap :p
09:56<andythenorth>the bananas rebuild stalled :)
09:56<andythenorth>frosch has a VM for it
09:56<andythenorth>but we never rebuilt it :)
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09:58<supermop_home>anyone want to test?
09:59<andythenorth>where is it?
09:59<@Alberth>only a directory in the root is definitely not problem
10:01<andythenorth>ok
10:04<supermop_home>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=76402&p=1188006#p1188006
10:10<andythenorth>supermop_home: no trucks? o_O
10:10<andythenorth>do I need more roads?
10:13<@Alberth>"docs" is created in render_docs magic, it seems
10:14<@Alberth>can't you simply generate the .txt files next to firs.grf?
10:14<andythenorth>yes
10:14<@Alberth>mk-archive script is quite limited in changing directory structure
10:15<andythenorth>I dislike spamming the root folder
10:15<andythenorth>especially because changelog.txt and readme.txt are generated
10:15<@Alberth>add a directory level
10:15<andythenorth>it’s very easy to edit the generated files
10:16<andythenorth>not good outcome :)
10:16*andythenorth considers making a ‘dist’ dir then
10:16<andythenorth>and just putting the bananas files in there
10:17<@Alberth>ie make a "target" directory, or whatever its name, and add target/{firs.grf,license.txt,changelog.txt} and target/docs
10:17<supermop_home>andy, parameter?
10:17<andythenorth>and duplicate some of the files into docs
10:17<@Alberth>mk-archive needs the same hierarchy, but from any directory
10:17<andythenorth>yup
10:18<andythenorth>the tar doesn’t need the html docs in it, that’s a luxury
10:18<andythenorth>I will try and achieve this now :)
10:18<andythenorth>supermop_home: I must be doing something wrong, but can’t figure out what
10:18<andythenorth>I have some buses though
10:19<supermop_home>andythenorth it should work with regular nrt roads
10:19<andythenorth>what is in a ‘bundle’ dir by convention?
10:19*andythenorth has naming anxiety
10:19<supermop_home>at least it does for me
10:19<supermop_home>what year are you in?
10:20<supermop_home>first truck is 1910
10:20<supermop_home>bus not until 1930 so far
10:20<andythenorth>2000
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10:20<supermop_home>are you filtering by passengers?
10:20<andythenorth>no
10:20<andythenorth>I probably have the wrong grf or so
10:20<supermop_home>D:
10:21<supermop_home>idk
10:22<andythenorth>Dual Mode and Generic RVs 0.2.6?
10:23<@Alberth>andythenorth: there is ${PROJECT_VERSIONED_NAME} that you can use as basename for the tar or zip
10:23<andythenorth>ok
10:23<@Alberth>not tested, but I think it works
10:23<andythenorth>I am going to publish grf + bananas docs into ‘firs-{version}’ dir
10:24<andythenorth>and then tar that
10:24<andythenorth>might be faff, not sure
10:25<andythenorth>supermop_home: it works for you locally I assume? o_O
10:30<@Alberth>maybe bananas changes it, but at least it beats "firs.tar" any day.
10:30<andythenorth>Alberth: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/revisions/13e8b34d0f38/diff/Makefile
10:30<andythenorth>bit crude
10:30<@Alberth>oh, inside the tar is already done!
10:30<andythenorth>could at least use a ‘for f’ loop or so
10:30<@Alberth>ie the "--base" option
10:31<andythenorth>I feel like this might have loose ends currently :)
10:32<supermop_home>andythenorth yes it works as expected for me
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10:32<andythenorth>I don’t know whether to keep generating firs.grf into the root also
10:32<@Alberth>afaik, mk-archive copies paths from the arguments, and optionally inserts "--base" in front of it
10:34<@Alberth>maybe useful for development to have firs.grf at a fixed place
10:39<andythenorth>it’s easier to not have to check for existence of a dir
10:40<andythenorth>but I only use firs.grf manually when checking file timestamp if compile has issues
10:42<andythenorth>ok, well Bananas accepted the tar :)_
10:42<andythenorth>so at least the format is good, even if my code is ugly :)
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10:48<@Alberth>it's just 3 lines, a for-loop is about equally long
10:48<andythenorth>it’s easy to understand this way I guess
10:51<@Alberth>yup
10:52<andythenorth>sorted for now then, thanks
10:52<andythenorth>I am not happy about the amount of stuff generated in root dir
10:52<andythenorth>but eh
10:52<andythenorth>:)
10:52<andythenorth>it’s much less than some python web frameworks :P
10:53<andythenorth>and it’s too hot to rebuild things :)
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10:55<@Alberth>writing Java code learned me that having lots of directories isn't useful either :p
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10:57<andythenorth>I navigate the mac file browser with cursor keys and ‘type first letter of name’
10:57<andythenorth>nesting makes that less pleasant :)
10:57<andythenorth>I think I could maybe eliminate or move custom_tags.txt and custom_tags.template
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10:58<@Alberth>pick unique first letters :p
10:59<@Alberth>at work I tend to type "cd *test"
10:59<@Alberth>which suggests the directory name is too long :p
10:59<andythenorth>:P
11:01<LordAro>Alberth: i'm not seeing a way to do the pointer -> references changes separately. qsort explicitly takes a comparator function that has 2 pointer args and i'm not seeing how i can sanely convert between them
11:01*andythenorth wonders if custom_tags.txt has to be in root
11:01<andythenorth>can’t see it being passed to nml
11:02<@Alberth>LordAro: sounds fair
11:02<@Alberth>it's a pity, but not much you can do about it
11:03<LordAro>mm
11:03<@Alberth>the other way around then?
11:04<@Alberth>oh, that wont' fly either of course due to std::sort comparator arguments
11:05*andythenorth adds CUSTOM_TAGS var
11:05<andythenorth>crosses fingers
11:06<LordAro>Alberth: aye
11:06<andythenorth>apparently worked
11:07<andythenorth>move the grf into /generated?
11:08<@Alberth>nmlc --help may have an option
11:08<andythenorth>it does
11:08<andythenorth>I think I just give it the path
11:08*andythenorth tests
11:11<andythenorth>‘makefiles are fun'
11:16<andythenorth>is it weird to delete an intermediate dir after tarring it?
11:16<andythenorth>it’s of no other use than creating the .tar
11:22*andythenorth does that
11:22<@Alberth>traditionally, you do that with "make clean"
11:22<andythenorth>I wondered
11:22<@Alberth>easier for debugging the makefile if it messes up
11:22<andythenorth>what would you expect to get from just ‘make’, and where?
11:23*andythenorth thinks this is about to all make sense, finally
11:23<@Alberth>default target, I'd do the bare minimum, but you may have other ideas about what that means
11:24<supermop_home>still no luck andy?
11:24<andythenorth>supermop_home: sorry, makefile-ing
11:25<andythenorth>so just ‘make’ creates (1) docs (because I want them from make) (2) intermediate files in /generated (3) firs.grf in /generated
11:25<andythenorth>firs.grf is fairly useless on its own
11:25<andythenorth>you either want ‘make install’ to test it in game, or some form of tar or bundle
11:25<@Alberth>if you remove things after creating the tar, it should be fine, as it won't remove things if it breaks then
11:28*andythenorth leaves the grf in generated/firs.grf
11:28<andythenorth>and awaits user complaints :P
11:33<supermop_home>is tropic basic changed at all for firs 3?
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11:35<andythenorth>supermop_home: not afaik
11:35<supermop_home>oops openttd on this computer too old for firs 3
11:36<supermop_home>time to grab another
11:46<@Alberth>new computer with new openttd
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11:55*andythenorth needs a new computer
11:55<andythenorth>the FIRS compile is slow on this one :(
11:56<Wolf01>Stop doing that on a Mac
11:56<andythenorth>Mac / any other laptop with a crap CPU
11:57<+glx>I think windows has slower file access than mac/other OS
12:02<Wolf01>You could always use linux with an i7 and a ssd
12:03<andythenorth>is linux notably faster than OS X?
12:07<Wolf01>I'm sure it's faster than Windows
12:08<Wolf01>At least for what I tried so far
12:08<andythenorth>who understands behaviour of motors in parallel?
12:08<Wolf01>What?
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12:12<supermop_home>andythenorth they use twice as much current?
12:12<andythenorth>this crap (I think it is anyway) on Eurobricks
12:13<andythenorth>every time someone uses multiple motors in a model, someone pops up and says “but it’s bad for the motors"
12:13<andythenorth>and I can’t remember enough electrical physics to convincingly show them they don’t know their arse from their elbow
12:17<Wolf01>Since you are driving them at 9v while they are made for 15v, I don't think they can be harmed so easily, maybe if you load them too much they could overheat and protection kicks in
12:17<supermop_home>Wolf01 i think it will just drain the battery faster
12:19<supermop_home>I doubt the current will be enough to overheat those lego wires
12:19<supermop_home>that I remember from when I was a kid
12:19<Wolf01>You already can connect 4 motors to a single battery pack, and even more if you want (I used 6), I don't think that battery drain is a problem
12:20<supermop_home>if anything new lego wires are probably heavier gauge
12:23<Wolf01>The problem is pretty mechanical-electric, a stalled motor drains more current, since 2 same lego motors don't exactly match speed you might have the slower one loading the faster one, draining more current, but it's really a little problem
12:51<@Alberth>stalled motors are a problem, as movement means induction which means resistance which means reduced current which means less heat
12:52<andythenorth>they have thermal protection :)
12:52<@Alberth>you don't want to rely on that :)
12:52<andythenorth>that problem applies to 1 motor or n :)
12:53<andythenorth>http://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?/forums/topic/151360-moc-sand-jeep/&do=findComment&comment=2812086
12:53<@Alberth>yes, multiple motors isn't much of a problem in itself
12:54*andythenorth is doing a wavey hands job in that post
12:54<@Alberth>you get different voltages likely, so different torque output, ie different efficiency, as motors are designed for some optimal voltage
12:54*andythenorth used a lot of words and half-remembered physics to say “works for me” :P
12:55<@Alberth>less efficient is more heat, but nothing really bad, afaik
12:56<@Alberth>of course cooling of lego motors isn't very optimal :p
12:56<andythenorth>nah
12:56<andythenorth>there’s very little case ventilation, and no built-in fan or so
12:57<@Alberth>a motor is basically just a large copper coil, can't go much wrong with it
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13:02<andythenorth>that’s my experience :)
13:02*andythenorth has broken enough motors to not be mystified by them
13:12<Eddi|zuHause>you could put a fan on the motor :p
13:23<@Alberth>making sure some air can circulate around it would help too :)
13:23<@Alberth>ie not build it into a closed box
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15:33<supermop_home>latest nrt is a week old
15:33<supermop_home>is that intended?
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>openttd is dying!
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16:24<andythenorth>o/
16:25<frosch123>hoi
16:25<frosch123>no more wifi, for a while :)
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16:50<frosch123>yay for people blindly adding casts to silence warnings, without understanding them
16:52<+glx>nice way to silently break things
16:53<+glx>I guess it's a 64bit to 32bit cast
16:54<frosch123>is modifying argv[0] allowed?
16:54<frosch123>we write some \0 into it, to extract the path
16:54<+glx>I think argv should be const
16:54<+glx>but it's often abused to store stuff :)
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18:50<Montana>when did 1.7.1 get released?
19:01<ST2>tuesday, 13th, if not mistaken ^^
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19:03<Montana>I did not noticed -.-'
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---Logclosed Mon Jun 19 00:00:40 2017