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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-07-09

---Logopened Sun Jul 09 00:00:03 2017
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04:58<@Alberth>LordAro: The XXX comments were written while reviewing, and may contradict each other
04:58<LordAro>thanks :)
04:58<@Alberth>yw :)
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05:13*andythenorth wants to rework Iron Horse
05:13<andythenorth>but must FIRS :(
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05:28<andythenorth>I might take the first 32 colours from
05:28<andythenorth>and then manually assign them
05:28<andythenorth>repeating map colours isn’t terrible for industries
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05:29<andythenorth>maybe top 64
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05:31<andythenorth>no frosch
05:32<@Alberth>not yet at least
05:33<andythenorth>sometimes there’s no automated solution :P
05:34<@Alberth>in general, it worked quite nicely, just the greens and blue watery colour were not so great
05:34<@Alberth>you tried just leaving those out?
05:35<@Alberth>biggest issue is that colours are completely different from default industries, and from previous FIRSes :)
05:35<andythenorth>is that an issue?
05:35*andythenorth can’t decide
05:35<andythenorth>at first I liked the difference, because it’s new
05:36<andythenorth>but then in my test games I got annoyed
05:36<andythenorth>“why are you hiding the coal mines"
05:36<@Alberth>I failed to recognize anything :)
05:36<@Alberth>but it's a matter of time to adjust
05:37<andythenorth>I might set manual colours, with a guard against the map problem
05:37<andythenorth>I can probably check if colour is in first 64 or so of what Frosch generated
05:37<andythenorth>with some special case for sea
05:38<@Alberth>if a colour that you used before is in the first 64, there isn't much reason not to keep that as-is
05:38<@Alberth>eg black coal mines still work then
05:40<@Alberth>on the other hand, eg brown iron-ore mines in default are hard to see, no reason to keep that
05:41<andythenorth>looks like the algorithm rules out black :)
05:41<andythenorth>can’t see it in the table
05:41<@Alberth>at 18.03 ?
05:42<@Alberth>9th entry or so
05:43<@Alberth>4.67 is x202020 which is also dark
05:44<@Alberth>technically, you could get a clash with "outside map", but that's a non-issue imho
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05:57<LordAro>Alberth: i do believe i can remove the CDECL from the function calls as well, given it's related to the C calling convention
05:57<LordAro> or something, i'm not entirely sure
06:02<@Alberth>hmm, stupid MS inventing own keywords
06:03<@Alberth>I believe there was also something related to preserving the function name, ie skip name mangling
06:03<LordAro>mm, maybe
06:03<@Alberth>but euhm, I don't know, never used Windows
06:03<@Alberth>make it a separate patch at least, perhaps another dev can help you here
06:04<@Alberth>perhaps DLL stuff ?
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06:09<LordAro>hmm, SmallVector::Clear is weird. i feel like it should be freeing memory, but it just resets a counter
06:10<LordAro>i'm not actually all that sure it has any advantages over std::vector anyway
06:12<@Alberth>SmallVector pre-dates vector by a decade or so
06:13<LordAro>vector isn't new to C++...
06:13<@Alberth>ok, less than a decade then :p
06:13<LordAro>regardless, separate patch
06:14<@Alberth>code started in C, where you don't have templates
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06:15<@Alberth>iirc the biggest advantage was that you could add a value without copying it, like push_back does
06:18<frosch123>andythenorth: yes, the algorithms banishes black
06:18<frosch123>the first version had many dark colours, which where hard to distinguish, so i penalised dark colours
06:18<frosch123>ofc there is space for *one* dark colour :p
06:19<@Alberth>argh, how I hate lua with its silent replacement by 'nil'
06:19<frosch123>what are you doing with lua?
06:19<@Alberth>hating it? :p
06:19<@Alberth>writing a property reader/writer, or rather attempting to
06:19<frosch123>i encounter it a lot recently
06:20<frosch123>like at work, in f and now here
06:20<@Alberth>corsix-th is full of it
06:20<@Alberth>maybe I should refuse to use it
06:22<frosch123>LordAro: the main point of SmallVector is that it gives the advantage of emplace long before c++11 existed
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06:23<adf88>hi frosh
06:23<adf88>I have a few small patches
06:23<adf88>would you like to take a look?
06:23<adf88>these are straightforward fixes
06:24<LordAro>frosch123: aye, probably
06:24<frosch123>i saw them in the log
06:25<frosch123>i need to find a working copy without modifies :p
06:25<frosch123>maybe i should look into using a better svn client
06:28<@Alberth>that fails at least for empty directories
06:29<frosch123>most cross-vcs things fail with svn:keywords
06:29<frosch123>maybe we should remove them
06:29<@Alberth>not to mention git fails on big file moves
06:30<LordAro>it's been getting better
06:30<LordAro>although you do have to massage it at times, i'll admit
06:30<@Alberth>not last week
06:31<@Alberth>RB wanted svn keywords for identification of a file in case we ran into one in the wild
06:44<andythenorth>top 64 contrasting map colours?
06:44<andythenorth>or 128?
06:46<frosch123>top 16?
06:46<andythenorth>not enough :)
06:47<andythenorth>and they’re mostly orange or pink
06:47<frosch123>of course they are
06:47<frosch123>you banned all of green and half of violet
06:48<frosch123>i guess top 32 might work
06:48<frosch123>but anything more is too much
06:49<andythenorth>I’ll do the work to shuffle them into 64
06:49<andythenorth>and if that’s lame, I’ll do it again to fit them into 32
06:54<andythenorth>frosch123: can the algorithm force-include colours?
06:54<andythenorth>not essential, just curious
06:55<frosch123>i essentially force-included the map colours and black
06:55<frosch123>that's why the algorithm stays away of them
06:55<frosch123>there is no difference between "force-include" and "ban"
06:55<frosch123>in the former case you just put them manually into front
06:58<frosch123> <- the algorithm starts with the "banned" colours, and then incrementally adds colours which maximize the minimum distance to the already choosen colors
06:58<frosch123>it's no clever algorithm :p just greed
06:59<frosch123>you can manually pick some colors and then auto-assign the rest just fine
07:00<andythenorth>I am using the list for a compile-time guard
07:00<andythenorth>with manual assignment
07:24<andythenorth>ok done :)
07:27<frosch123>does it make sense to add those colors to the economy graphs?
07:27<andythenorth>I wondered
07:27<andythenorth>might be too much colour
07:27<andythenorth>want to try? o_O
07:28<frosch123>not to fill the whole boxes, that would make it unreadable
07:28<frosch123>but maybe some square somewhere
07:31<andythenorth>show the cargo icon? :P
07:34*andythenorth bbl
07:34<andythenorth>pleased the map colours are fixed :)
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07:35<LordAro>Alberth: ah yes, that's why i did the FileList thing - there's something very funny going on with const vs non-const that i couldn't work out -
07:36<LordAro>(this is with FileList restored to its original state)
07:37<LordAro>ah yes, it's not using the const version of Filelist::Get
07:37<LordAro>for reasons i can't tell
07:37<@Alberth>line 5 looks wrong, imho
07:38<LordAro>that's not new :p
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07:38<LordAro>i've got another branch for that
07:39<@Alberth>isn't it just that it has no type for CompareFiosItems ?
07:40<@Alberth>what happens if you declare it?
07:40<LordAro>oh, i forgot about the header declaration
07:40<LordAro>please hold...
07:42<LordAro> there we go, that's "better"
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07:45<@Alberth>hmm, weird indeed, FileList looks ok
07:45<@Alberth>perhaps it gets confused due to the additional pointer, which is not const in both cases
07:46<@Alberth>tbh I have yet to find a reason why the pointer should be const in these cases
07:47<@Alberth>who cares what the caller does with the pointer?
07:47<LordAro>i'd imagine it just cares that they are the same, rather than making any distinction between const/nonconst
07:49<LordAro>that said, if i comment out the non-const Get function, it explodes into templatehell
07:52<@Alberth>oh, perhaps swapping during sort?
07:52<@Alberth>not very const :p
07:54<LordAro>i think that's what the error messages are saying :)
07:56*LordAro adds more code duplication in the form of a nonconst End
07:56<LordAro>compiles \o/
07:57<frosch123>i wonder why no c++xx has added a keyword for const/nonconst c&p
08:00<@Alberth>not sure what c&p means, but perhaps not enough added value?
08:01<adf88>e.g. void
08:02<adf88>void this_is_cost_and_non_const_method() const_or_non_conts
08:02<frosch123>i guess it does not work well with templated parameters
08:02<adf88> this->something(); // const or non-const
08:03<frosch123>but for "autoconst Foo& GetFoo() autoconst { return this->foo; }" it would work
08:03<@Alberth>in general both implementations can be very different
08:03<frosch123>not so much if it needs to distinguish iterator and const_iterator
08:04<@Alberth>maybe they hope to make the compiler smart enough to recognize const
08:05<@Alberth>always nice to find branches that are just old copies of 'master' :p
08:06<adf88>frosch123: no need to
08:06<adf88>auto iter = container->begin();
08:07<frosch123>well, but does "auto" work for function parameters and return values?
08:08<adf88>sorry, I just got in the middle and I don't know what you are trying to achieve :p
08:08<frosch123>ah well, perhaps boost will discover some magic for "boost::if_const<const_iterator, iterator>" :p
08:08<@Alberth>making a spec for the next C++xx :p
08:09<adf88>but I would say: create a function template, it will accept "auto" var
08:09<adf88>T will be either 'const_iterator' or 'iterator'
08:10<@Alberth>git rename guesses are hilarious :p "rename CorsixTH/{Lua/command.lua => Graphics/file_mapping.txt} (87%)"
08:11<frosch123>reminds me of gettext fuzzy matching
08:12<@Alberth>rename MapEdit/Src/app.cpp => CorsixTH/Lua/entities/grim_reaper.lua
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08:20<LordAro>frosch123: auto works in C++17, i think
08:20<LordAro>certainly in lambdas
08:21<LordAro>lambdas are getting fun though - i made a thing a few months ago that was signficantly simpler with a load of top-level lambdas instead of "proper" functions
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08:30<Eddi|zuHause>speaking of templates, i had a go with C++ a while back, trying out a function like "template<typename T> T f(T param)", but how do you instantiate the template properly, if the function is not called in this .cpp file, but in another one? i had to manually put instantiations like "int f(int)" "byte f(byte)" etc...
08:31<frosch123>usually you put the implementation into the header
08:31<frosch123>it's were rare to do the instantiation in a cpp file
08:31<Eddi|zuHause>but that would duplicate the function?
08:32<frosch123>the linker sorts that out
08:32<frosch123>the linker generally sorts out duplication of implicitly declared thigns
08:32<Eddi|zuHause>doesn't really scream "the right" solution to me
08:33<frosch123>like default constructor, copy constructor, destructor, virtual table, run time type info, ...
08:34<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: the point of a template is that it works with many types, not just with the 5 you thought of when writing the template
08:35<Eddi|zuHause>in particular, i was cleaning up a file where the person just copy-pasted the same function 20 times, just swapping out int32/int16/uint16/bool/...
08:38<@Alberth>they solved that linker problem around 20 years ago
08:39<frosch123>i really like languages which do not have "unsigned" stuff
08:40<Eddi|zuHause>i can't do everything in python :p
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08:42<Eddi|zuHause>in this particular case this was some network interface code, where the type had to match the underlying (and fixed) format
08:43<@Alberth>we over-use 'unsigned' in openttd, you should only use it for collections of bits, mostly
08:43<Eddi|zuHause>i also had "great fun" trying to reimplement that interface in python, with the c_types module
08:43<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: as soon as you use "-" on a type, it should be signed
08:44<@Alberth>even before, eg population or length should be signed too
08:45<@Alberth>ie "non-negative values only" is not sufficient for using unsigned
08:46<@Alberth>shit starts to drop when you are using the full width of integers :p
08:46<Eddi|zuHause>well, the extended range really matters if you have to weigh in whether you use 8 or 16 bit, but once you're using 32, 64 or more bits, it's almost irrelevant
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08:48<Eddi|zuHause>i've come across an "unsigned 64 bit integer" which has the meaning "100ns units since 1st january 1601"
08:48<@Alberth>shorter integers is probably also overengineering, just use int everywhere
08:49<@Alberth>of course, network IO and file formats have different considerations here
08:49<Eddi|zuHause>that turns out to be quite hard to remember if your language has "INT" meaning "16 bits"
08:50<frosch123>@calc 2**64/(10**7 *3600*24*365)
08:50<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 58494.2417355
08:50<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: quite conservative choice, 10ns would also last till 5800"
08:50<@Alberth>longer than expected :p
08:51<frosch123>(plus 1600)
08:51<frosch123>but i see that they did not pick 1ns
08:51<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: maybe someone thought "ah well, we won't need better resolution"
08:52<frosch123>i think every time format should have an addition field for number of leap-seconds included
08:53<Eddi|zuHause>just turn off the computer for 24h on days with leap seconds
08:53<Eddi|zuHause>that is apparently the default solution for SAP systems with summer/winter time shifts :p
08:54<@Alberth>haha :)
08:54<@Alberth>just use GMT-relative time
08:54<LordAro> is always worth a read
09:07<@Alberth>amazing :)
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09:16<Eddi|zuHause>LordAro: i feel like i read a simplified excerpt from that recently
09:18<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not sure my processes are time-critical enough to worry about leap seconds, though
09:19<Eddi|zuHause>plus, they won't be running over night, probably
09:31<frosch123>yeah, first make them crash less often :p
09:32<Eddi|zuHause>did you mean "explode"? :p
09:33<adf88>I wish they had do this leap second thing otherwise
09:33<adf88>it's so simple
09:33<adf88>one second in GMT time doesn't have to be equivalent to a physical second
09:33<adf88>virtual GMT seconds could last a little longer or a little slower then a physical second
09:33<adf88>the central committee would be fine-tuning their central clock so it slowly drifts to compress the upcoming changes in Earth movement around sun
09:33<adf88>computers would desynchronize slowly from the master clock, BUT THEY DO SO ANYWAY
09:33<adf88>in it's time, they would safely resynchronize with the master clock, THEY HAVE TO DO IT ANYWAY
09:33<Eddi|zuHause>i do PLC programming, which usually means there's an actual machine attached to it :p
09:34<Eddi|zuHause>adf88: google does something like that, on days with leap seconds they stretch out the seconds over the day ever so slightly
09:36<adf88>for high performance time calculations you don't use GMT anyway so GMT doesn't have to be "scientific"
09:40<Eddi|zuHause>adf88: that's a dangerous claim
09:41<adf88>i meant really high like GPS stuff etc
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09:53<adf88>I heard (and It seems natural) that for scientific calculations like those in space, UTC is not usefull (because of the leap), they use other timers that are not affected by Earh movement around Sun
09:55<Eddi|zuHause>adf88: that's explained in above link
10:00<frosch123>yeah, in space they use parallax seconds and light years :p
10:00<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: yes, those are the best time units :p
10:17<adf88>I remember once when polish handball representation was playing with Norway
10:17<adf88>15 seconds to the end, we are loosing, Bogdan Wenta (coach) takes a break and says to the team:
10:17<adf88>"guys, easy, there's a lot of time"
10:17<adf88>since then, 1 venta = 15 seconds :D
10:17<adf88>we won BTW :)
10:22<Eddi|zuHause>depends on whether you can partition those 15 seconds into multiple attack sequences (e.g. by american-football-like timeouts)
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11:22<andythenorth>is ottd reddit any good?
11:22<frosch123>don't ask anyone from btpro :p
11:23<frosch123>there is some drama which i do not quite follow
11:26<andythenorth>hmm ok :)
11:26<andythenorth>so what icon for Recyclables cargo?
11:26<andythenorth>I tried the 3 arrows in a circle for ‘recycle'
11:26<andythenorth>doesn’t work
11:27<frosch123>just wanted to suggest that
11:27<frosch123>too small?
11:27<andythenorth>arrows don’t fit the number of pixels
11:28<andythenorth>or even
11:28<frosch123>remove the box
11:28<frosch123> <- only arrows
11:31<andythenorth>due to the grid, one arrow must be much larger than the other two
11:32*andythenorth wonders about a 32bpp UI with 8bpp game sprites
11:33<frosch123>draw 2x cargo icons?
11:33<frosch123>you were using 2x gui, right?
11:37<frosch123> <- cement icon
11:37<frosch123>vehicle body is hard though, if you also have vehicles
11:37<andythenorth>mixer :)
11:40*andythenorth tries and fails
11:40<andythenorth>drawing icons is totally different to drawing sprites :P
11:40<frosch123>many of your icons try 3d
11:41<frosch123>2d may be easier with that little pixels
11:42<andythenorth>Foobar and Dan drew most of the other icons
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14:46<andythenorth>upgraded recyclables icon
14:46<andythenorth>still crap
14:46<andythenorth>it bothers me there are two different styles of mineral pile
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14:48<frosch123>i think it's reasonable
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14:49<frosch123>i don't think it is any worse than the other small icons
14:49<frosch123>most icons have the problem of too few pixels
14:50*andythenorth wonders if we should change them
14:53<andythenorth>Alberth: does FIRS 2 default to Extreme for you? o_O
14:53<andythenorth>I get Temperate Basic
14:56-!-mode/#openttd [+v Alberth] by ChanServ
15:06<frosch123>hmm, i can get the map colours into the cargo graphs
15:06<frosch123>but there is no equivalent of showing a partial image
15:06<frosch123>so cargo icons would only work with one icon per image
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: have you ever considered having the default be "Basic (climate-dependent)" and then additional economies for "Basic (Arctic)", "Basic (Temperate)", "Basic (Tropic)", others...
15:09<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: yesterday we tried to make a point that you can play any economy in any climate :p
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>you could still do that with this
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>but you bring the most diversity to people that never change parameters
15:11<Eddi|zuHause>and you can then put a sentence about the climate-independentness of the climate-economy in the description
15:11<@Alberth>andy, nah, I use BB as guide :)
15:16<@Alberth>the OP was complaining FIRS was too complicated
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>that's not a problem, if you ask enough people, you always find people who have these extreme opinions
15:27<Eddi|zuHause>meaning it's simultaneously too complicated and not nearly complicated enough
15:27<andythenorth>I don’t know what to say to over-complicated
15:27<andythenorth>it’s 19 industries versus 12
15:27<andythenorth>temperate / temperate basic
15:28<andythenorth>or temperate basic / temperate :P
15:29<andythenorth>frosch123: I could slice out the cargo icons with PIL :P
15:30<frosch123>hmm, colors do not seem to work either
15:30<frosch123>maybe would require templating the css as well
15:31<andythenorth>dunno if it’s worthwhile :)
15:31<frosch123>yeah :/
15:32<andythenorth>can you remember why we made primaries green and secondaries red?
15:32<andythenorth>I am considering making them all variations of blue or so
15:33<frosch123>we tried different colors
15:33<frosch123>there were several version
15:34<frosch123>i like the current ones
15:35<frosch123>in particular i like green for primary
15:35<frosch123>because they produce on their own
15:36<frosch123>blue is generally a boring color, so making everything blueish would look sad
15:36<andythenorth> seems we tried quite a few options
15:36<andythenorth>there was yellow at some point
15:36<andythenorth>and we distinguished extractive / organic
15:36<frosch123>i can see why that was removed :p
15:36*andythenorth leaves them alone
15:36<frosch123>sounds pretty pointless
15:38<frosch123>oh, maybe the css is working against my colors
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15:51<andythenorth>my to-do list says “cargo weights seem to be arbitrary, fix them"
15:51<andythenorth>local links never work for you lot :P
15:54<andythenorth>how much should 1t of alcohol weigh then?
15:54<andythenorth>or do the bottles make it heavier?
15:55<frosch123>i think you deprecated that task by making most cargos use "1 ton" insead of "1 item/bag/sack"
15:55<andythenorth>not yet :P
15:55<andythenorth>should I put the units in the table?
15:55<andythenorth>all 1 ton are at least easy :P
15:55<frosch123> <- well, at least one can see the colors per economy
15:56*andythenorth wonders why the svgs don’t work for me from there
15:57<andythenorth>tried all three browsers :)
15:59<frosch123> <- render them yourself :)
15:59<frosch123>the Makefile change may be useful in any case
15:59<frosch123>also the ratio thing makes some economies look better, though it may become a economy-specific setting
16:04<andythenorth>colourful :)
16:04<andythenorth>it’s interesting frosch123
16:07<andythenorth>we could do them with the colour on one side
16:08<andythenorth>dunno if the svg css permits that
16:08*andythenorth reading
16:17<andythenorth>the ratio does seem to be an improvement
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16:24<andythenorth>beer is denser than water :o
16:24<andythenorth>1010g per litre
16:31<frosch123>so if you let beer settle for a while: there is alcohol at the top, then water, then the rest?
16:31<andythenorth>perhaps :)
16:33<andythenorth>weight of livestock :P
16:33<andythenorth>chickens, sheep or cows?
16:33*andythenorth leaves it alone
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16:36<andythenorth>seems we already set it to weight of ponies :P
16:38<supermop_home>apparently melb is building out some suburban line by 3 more stations
16:38<andythenorth>FIRS 3 creeps closer to the end
16:39<andythenorth>bothers me I can’t re-order the economies
16:39<andythenorth>Extreme should be last
16:39<andythenorth>maybe I just break savegames, that happens anyway
16:41<frosch123>i think you can reorder them
16:41<frosch123>without breaking savegames
16:41<frosch123>add "+16" to the values until they are in the order you want
16:42<frosch123>then do "param_foobar = param_foobar & 0xF" at the start of the grf
16:42<andythenorth>is too late in day for me to figure out what that does :)
16:43<andythenorth>I have elaborate but flawed code already to try and avoid breaking savegames
16:43<andythenorth>it does nothing useful :)
16:44<frosch123>essentially it make the combobox choose paired-values (economy, sortorder)
16:44<frosch123>lower nibble is economy, upper nibble is sortorder
16:44<andythenorth>I need to implement that tomorrow :)
16:45*andythenorth must to bed
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17:22<andythenorth>Manufacturing Supplies has no special behaviour
17:22<andythenorth>unlike ENSP and FMSP
17:22<andythenorth>it should be removed / renamed / rethought
17:22<andythenorth>it’s just hax
17:24<andythenorth>it’s consumed at 9 industries
17:24<andythenorth>6 of them it’s just packaging
17:24<andythenorth>1 is a port
17:24<andythenorth>1 is parts
17:24<andythenorth>the other I have NFI
17:25<andythenorth>crates of boxes? o_O
17:25<supermop_home>boxes of crates
17:25<andythenorth>nets of nets
17:25<supermop_home>jars of bottles
17:25<andythenorth>oh that’s just cardboard :P
17:26<andythenorth>bags of sacks
17:26<andythenorth>texitle mill should _produce_ MNSP, not consume it :P
17:26<andythenorth>daft cargo
17:26<andythenorth>‘Packaging’ then?
17:26<andythenorth>and remove it from Furniture Factory and Textile Mill?
17:28<andythenorth>IRL, it should also cover the common industrial chemicals like salt
17:29<andythenorth>but that didn’t happen
17:29<andythenorth>also Ice
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17:31<andythenorth>also Bed
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---Logclosed Mon Jul 10 00:00:05 2017