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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-07-14

---Logopened Fri Jul 14 00:00:11 2017
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09:31<crem>seems so
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10:42<@Alberth>hi hi
10:44<crem>hi hi hi hi
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11:12<@Alberth>or hw8 ?
11:13<frosch123>is that a unicode codepoint?
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11:26<@Alberth>it"s bau" shifted one key to start with "h", but it fails on making "hoi"
11:27<frosch123>ah :)
11:27<frosch123>"bau" is italian
11:28<frosch123>italian for "woof"
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11:34<Eddi|zuHause>you know wolves don't actually "woof"
11:34<frosch123>will ask him later
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11:39<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: juvenile wolf puppies do sometimes
11:51<Wolf01>Quak, o/
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13:51<andythenorth>what to do?
13:54<Wolf01>An usual reply to that question between my friends is "disgust", but it's because "what to do" and "what we are" it's the same in italian :P
13:54<andythenorth>we are what we do eh?
13:54<Wolf01>Yeah :D
13:56<andythenorth>fricking FIRS :)
13:57<andythenorth>last 20% time
13:57<andythenorth>takes 80% of the effort
13:57<andythenorth>‘overlapping cargo payment curves’ :P
13:57*andythenorth will fix that
13:58<Wolf01>Lucky, usually is last 10% takes 90% effort
14:02<andythenorth>I just have 3 industries to draw
14:02<andythenorth>a few bugs to fix
14:02<andythenorth>and a complete rework of all economies :P
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>it's the 90-90 rule
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>the first 90% of the work takes 90% of the time
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>and the other 10% of the work take the other 90% of the time
14:13<frosch123>there are also some fancy 90-10 rules :p
14:13<frosch123>use 10% of your time to solve 90% of the problems
14:14<Wolf01>I follow the 10% rule, do 10% of the work in 10% of the time and stop
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14:16<Eddi|zuHause>i like that rule, i followed that through to the point where i reduced it by 1% every year
14:16<Eddi|zuHause>and after 10 years i did basically 0 work
14:17<frosch123>get 90% of the money for 10% of the work
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, i also did that. i went back to 10% of the work, but upped the money from 10% to 90% :p
14:29<andythenorth>should I render the payment curve in docs?
14:29<andythenorth>with pil or something?
14:30<andythenorth>can I automate payment curves? :P
14:31<frosch123>if you add up the time of every ottd player since they last looked at the payment curves, will you get more than the age of the universe?
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>does that algorithm terminate?
14:38<andythenorth>AND IMPORTANT!
14:39<@Alberth>point to them instead :p
14:40<andythenorth>mostly I just need to prevent 1:1 overlap
14:40<andythenorth>which happens due to copy-paste of the cargo definitions
14:44<frosch123>then fill them with random numbers
14:44<frosch123>or use the industry id :p
14:44<frosch123>err, cargo id
14:47<Wolf01>Mmmh, the simyoulater post on NRT...
14:51<andythenorth>you just finished reading it? o_O
14:51<andythenorth>did it take several days?
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14:55<@DorpsGek>__ln__: glx was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 1 day, 21 hours, 22 minutes, and 51 seconds ago: <glx> ievan for me
14:56<Wolf01><andythenorth> did it take several days? <- yes
14:58<Wolf01>I think he is just trying to tell us to plan carefully the feature to not change it later
14:58<Eddi|zuHause>he does realize he's talking to andy?
15:01<andythenorth>because somehow I am God of NRT
15:01<andythenorth>I found the post quite interesting
15:01<andythenorth>somehow it both groks significant issues, whilst also missing them
15:05<andythenorth>do we have different number of railtypes for i386 and x64?
15:05*andythenorth didn’t know that
15:06<andythenorth>the map has different bits available for different architectures?
15:06<andythenorth>that is fricking insane
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>that's probably gone through a fractal of half-knowledge
15:08<frosch123>yes, that's why i386 and x64 always desync when playing together :p
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15:09<frosch123>andythenorth: the only issue that we have with i386 support is that we do not support bigger sprite caches than 2gb
15:10<Eddi|zuHause>how dare you!!
15:10<Eddi|zuHause>that's discrimination!
15:10<Eddi|zuHause>check your privileges!
15:10<frosch123>i bought a bigger graphics card only for factorio
15:10<frosch123>i.e. only because of V
15:10<frosch123>i hope he gets a share from the manufacturer
15:14<Wolf01>I'm still thinking about changing catenary to a flag (for railtypes too)
15:15<andythenorth>that’s how this all started :P
15:15<Wolf01>I know
15:15<andythenorth>Wolf01: I just can’t face the barrage of shit
15:15<andythenorth>catenary SIMPLY MUST be able to distinguish 25KV AC, 1500V DC, etc
15:16<andythenorth>AND WHAT ABOUT THIRD RAIL!!!!!
15:16<frosch123>i wondered about splitting of the ground+sideways, which may include catenary
15:16<frosch123>i.e. catenary would be on the level of lamps and parking lots
15:16<Wolf01>Also 4 railtypes with the same exact graphic with only different speed limit...
15:17<andythenorth>ok seriously
15:17<andythenorth>if I add catenary to a tile, is it available for both road and tram?
15:17<frosch123>currently it isn't
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15:17<frosch123>but when moving to sideways, it would
15:17<andythenorth>so does that transform the type?
15:18<Wolf01>We could do a facade style thing, the problem will be on the grf side
15:18<frosch123>no idea, does building track change the sidewalks?
15:19<andythenorth>dunno :)
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>everyone's spamming me with this link, must be valuable.
15:19<Wolf01>Grfs should provide both with and without catenary, if both versions are present, the one with catenary is masked and you have a button to convert it to electrified
15:20<Wolf01>If only electrified is present then there is no "remove catenary" button, and same happens for when the grf defines only standard type
15:21<Wolf01>This is all about UI work
15:21<Wolf01>But still limits the number of roadtypes
15:21<Wolf01>You see 8 and instead you have 15 of them
15:22<Wolf01>But is clean
15:22<Wolf01>The user doesn't have to choose between 15 types which are really 8
15:23<Wolf01>Or even 4
15:23<andythenorth>can I electrify maglev?
15:23<Wolf01>If it defines the catenary feature, why not?
15:24<andythenorth>can I electrify ELRD?
15:24<Wolf01>ELRD should not exist, is ROAD+catenary
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>electrified wetrail
15:26<Wolf01>The best thing to do instead is to have just the *types you need, place infrastructures like catenary and speed limits
15:27<andythenorth>Wolf01: want to patch? :P
15:27<Eddi|zuHause>remove roadtypes, make speedlimit signs
15:27<Wolf01>The problems is where to find enough bits
15:27<Eddi|zuHause>but haven't we already discussed a separate "with catenary" flag?
15:28<Wolf01>Catenary should have number of *types in tile * types of electrification
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>have a "subnet mask"-style mapping of bits towards roadtypes and catenary types :p
15:28<Wolf01>OR! Just one electrification for all, with a single bit
15:29<andythenorth>that was my preference :P
15:29<andythenorth>fucks about catenary types I don’t give
15:29<Wolf01>And the graphic is composed depending of which *types are present
15:30<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: problem with that is that it'll eventually clash with some random newgrf developer's idea about what it should do vs. what you originally intended it to mean
15:30<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: that’s the case for all the newgrf spec :)
15:30<Wolf01>Like everything
15:30<andythenorth>so it’s 100% true, but for all cases
15:30<andythenorth>so non-significant :)
15:30<Eddi|zuHause>there's different layers to this
15:30<andythenorth>it’s only a matter of which developer, when, and how wrong they are :D
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>it's like saying "whether science is 50% right or 99.9% right is irrelevant, it's still 100% wrong"
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>which is how we ended up with a president trump and a brexit, and ...
15:32<andythenorth>what’s the problem with the current implementation?
15:32<andythenorth>it’s clunky, but it works
15:32<FLHerne>Doesn't the Dutch set already have different catenary sprites by railtype or something?
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: that's a problem, because with roadtypes, you can have two roadtypes with clashing catenary sprites
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>on the same trackbits
15:33<FLHerne>That might look odd
15:34<Wolf01>There's sprite composition
15:34<FLHerne>Does notroadtypes also allow newgrfs to set their own sprites?
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>would be weird if it didn't
15:34<frosch123>that's kind of the main point
15:35<andythenorth>isn’t the problem solely that town roads can’t be electrified?
15:35<frosch123>Wolf01: i think if there is a separate ground type to bui,d we can greatly reduce the number of road and tram types
15:35<andythenorth>are there other issues?
15:35<frosch123>taking the current example grfs, we have like 100 ground types, 3 road types, 3 tram types
15:35<Wolf01>frosch123: yes, that could be a good idea
15:36*andythenorth fails to understand :)
15:36<andythenorth>ground type?
15:36<frosch123>andythenorth: sidewalks vs parking lots vs cobble stone vs asphalt does not change the type of vehicles which drive on them
15:36<Wolf01>Grass, dirt, cobbles, pavement, asphalt
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: imagine CHIPS but for roads
15:37<frosch123>yellow lines vs white lines does not either
15:37<andythenorth>eye candy
15:37<andythenorth>so more like building stations
15:37<andythenorth>we have no bits for this though?
15:38<Eddi|zuHause>there's never enough bits, we should remove all bits
15:38<frosch123>andythenorth: i would solve the gameplay issues first before worrying about bits :p
15:38<Wolf01>We should remove stations and place them on a common array
15:39<andythenorth>the problem for me is that NRT just works
15:39<andythenorth>such simple needs for andythenorth
15:39<frosch123>does it?
15:39<andythenorth>the compatibility is…tedious
15:40<andythenorth>w.r.t not being able to bridge incompatible types with a 3rd type
15:40<andythenorth>the rest works
15:57<andythenorth>so cobble road is just ROAD and so on?
16:02<frosch123>it's like manual built town zones
16:05<andythenorth>so that moves 80% of types out of the global toolbar, and into a construction toolbar? o_O
16:06<frosch123>no idea :)
16:06<andythenorth>it’s quite appealing
16:06<andythenorth>what problem is solved?
16:07<frosch123>that we do not invent roadtype compatibility for eye candy differences
16:07<frosch123>which likely also removes problems with upgrading existing roads of towns
16:07<andythenorth>ok so what if simyoulater is ~right?
16:07<frosch123>because changing eye candy does not affect routing
16:08<andythenorth>I can’t avoid implementation details, because they always matter
16:08<frosch123>i have not read it :üp
16:08<andythenorth>but what about options to turn on/off sidewalks, catenary etc when constructing
16:08<andythenorth>rather than inherent to the type
16:08<frosch123>that's too explicit
16:08<andythenorth>so something not than that
16:08<frosch123>when you select dirt roads, there is little point in selecting parking lots and sidewalks
16:09<frosch123>when changing ground type of existing roads i am thinking about something like the object gui
16:09<frosch123>i just have no idea how to build new road :p
16:09*andythenorth never uses objects
16:09*andythenorth will try now
16:10<andythenorth>where are objects? :P
16:10<frosch123>landscape bar
16:10<frosch123>but just think of them like chips
16:10<andythenorth>looking at GarryG’s fake roads
16:11<andythenorth>ha ha
16:11<andythenorth>lego road plates
16:11<frosch123>including lego tram?
16:11<andythenorth>not so much :P
16:11<frosch123>(too few pixels)
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16:14<andythenorth>is catenary eye candy or no?
16:15<frosch123>i wondered whether the eye-candy level should provide the graphics for the catenary, while road/tram type provide the requirement
16:16<frosch123>which may imply that not all eye-candys allow catenary
16:17<frosch123>anyway, independent of that, we should group road/tram types with/without catenary, so adding catenary upgrades both types
16:17<frosch123>(i think wolf wrote that before)
16:18<andythenorth>I have only played an hour or so with electric RVs
16:19<andythenorth>so I likely didn’t get confused much about routing them on tram catenary
16:19<frosch123>the issue with not being able to visually distinguish road from tram catenary will fall onto someones feet somewhen
16:19<andythenorth>I can imagine the problem
16:19<frosch123>so it makes sense to tie the electrifcation of both to each other
16:22<andythenorth>does that demand that every road type is upgradeable to a different (electrified) label?
16:23<frosch123>but if it is, building electric tram + removing tram will keep the now electrified road
16:23<frosch123>may also depend on whether there are vehicles
16:24<andythenorth>if this wasn’t OpenTTD, I’d propose just a flag on the tile
16:24<andythenorth>which would work fine if it was a game, and not a reality simulator
16:24<frosch123>you are thinking in bits again :p
16:24<andythenorth>nah, gameplay
16:24<andythenorth>there are limited number of dimensions for interesting variety
16:24<andythenorth>the dragon game my kids play has fish and wood, and runes
16:25<andythenorth>not 25 kids of fish
16:25<andythenorth>although there are 2 kinds of runes :P
16:26<frosch123>sounds like rock-paper-scissor
16:26<andythenorth>when designing train sets it’s already hard to provide difference between electric and other types
16:26<frosch123>runes beat wood, wood beats fish, fish beats runes
16:27<andythenorth>depends on what you need most right now
16:27<andythenorth>usually you need fish to feed the dragons to get more wood so you can earn runes
16:27<andythenorth>then the runes get you more fish
16:27<andythenorth>casual gaming :P
16:27<andythenorth>or £48.99 to just get the runes now
16:28<andythenorth>my view is quite distorted probably
16:29<andythenorth>I considered 2 kinds of electric rail in Iron Horse (catenary and 3rd rail)
16:29<andythenorth>for realisms
16:29<andythenorth>but it made no sense
16:29<andythenorth>one type is enough
16:30<andythenorth>newgrf authors make poor spec designers :P
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16:56*andythenorth tries to figure out practicalities
16:56<andythenorth>so I upgrade my tramway to 3rd rail tramway
16:58<andythenorth>no catenary :)
16:58<andythenorth>ha, problem solved ;)
16:59<andythenorth>all trams must be Bordeaux style
17:01*andythenorth gives up :)
17:01<andythenorth>sleep time
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---Logclosed Sat Jul 15 00:00:12 2017