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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-07-16

---Logopened Sun Jul 16 00:00:13 2017
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02:23<andythenorth>o/
02:23<supermop_>good morning
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02:44<@Alberth>o/
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02:53<andythenorth>hi Alberth
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03:11<supermop_>good night
03:15<andythenorth>bye supermop
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03:36<@Alberth>all these long evening discussions :)
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04:39<Wolf01>Moin
04:41<Wolf01>I concluded that I like OTTD as is, and we just need to find a solution for the double catenary.
04:41<@Alberth>o/
04:43<andythenorth>hi Wolf01
04:43<Wolf01>If I want something different there are cities skylines and transport fever :P
04:49<Wolf01>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Syromyatniki_Spletenie_11.JPG lolwhat
04:51<andythenorth>gauntlet track :)
04:52<Wolf01>Related to yesterday picture: http://www.mdpi.com/remotesensing/remotesensing-07-14916/article_deploy/html/images/remotesensing-07-14916-g001-1024.png
04:54*andythenorth thinks that frosch route is worth exploring
04:55<andythenorth>there are a few problems though
04:55<Wolf01>"how to tell if exist both catenary for trolley bus and tram on a tile for transport tycoon" isn't so helpful.. only frosch and unspooled pictures come up
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05:01<Wolf01>[10:54:01] * andythenorth thinks that frosch route is worth exploring <- you mean ground types?
05:01<andythenorth>yes
05:01<andythenorth>I think it’s potentially a confusing, clunky UI
05:02<andythenorth>and I can’t understand how overbuilding would work when you just want to add tram to road or vice versa
05:02<andythenorth>but I think otherwise it has some interesting advantages
05:03<Wolf01>Based on what I understood, it's just another way to call the "powered *types" algorythm
05:04<andythenorth>yes, it’s a rearranging
05:04<andythenorth>afaict
05:04<andythenorth>instead of having e.g. dedicated cobble road, compatible with ROAD
05:04<andythenorth>you have all the ROAD compatible types in a menu, and choose to build one based on appearance
05:05<Wolf01>So, grfs need to provide all the possible combinations and the game just prompts what it found and let you do it or not
05:05<andythenorth>I’ve always found compatibility a fucked up concept
05:05<andythenorth>because….HTH is the player supposed to know what’s compatible?
05:06<andythenorth>it’s a spec designed for authors :P
05:06<andythenorth>it’s quite onanistic
05:07<Wolf01>"quite"
05:08<andythenorth>I’d have to play with the railtypes wiki pages open
05:08<andythenorth>and I don’t even know what label a vehicle uses :P
05:09<Wolf01>Yes, it's a bit confusing, too much reality crammed in
05:31<Wolf01>I was thinking about *types as basesets, you can select only one
05:31<Wolf01>The problem is that they need to be complete
05:32<Wolf01>You can't have one for roads and one for tramways, but you need to have something like unspooled
05:39<Wolf01>https://mobile.slashdot.org/story/17/07/15/2140222/uk-wifi-provider-tricks-customers-into-agreeing-to-clean-sewers ha
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05:55<adf88>hi
05:56<adf88>we have MAX_BUILDING_PIXELS which is a pixel limit for "buildings"
05:56<adf88>it's 200px
05:56<adf88>I was wandering
05:56<adf88>wondering
05:57<__ln__>wandering is also nice
05:57<adf88>if other similar limits could be defined for different tile types
05:57<adf88>e.g. a bridge sprite is assumed to be max 200px high
05:58<adf88>maybe this limit could be smaller
05:58<adf88>this whole limits are used when painting tiles - to detect if they are visible
05:59<adf88>and whether they need to be painted
06:00<FLHerne>Is that 200px above deck height, or the ground?
06:00<FLHerne>Second one can be reached fairly easily with tall bridges
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06:00<adf88>above norther corner of tile ground (foundations included)
06:01<Wolf01>Quak
06:01<adf88>in case of bridges
06:01<adf88>it's limit above the deck
06:01<adf88>200px seems many
06:03<frosch123>hoi
06:03<adf88>hi
06:04<frosch123>adf88: for performance reason?
06:04<frosch123>or why?
06:04<adf88>yes
06:04<adf88>i'm trying to tweak ViewportAddLandscape
06:04<frosch123>i guess make a quick hack for clear land and trees, and profile whether it makes a difference at all :)
06:04<adf88>there is exclusive limit for bridges
06:05<adf88>so I;m wondering, maybe just lower it
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06:05<FLHerne>adf88: This must be fairly close https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=50037#p1071113
06:05<FLHerne>(not actually an in-game screenshot, aaui)
06:09<adf88>Exactly 200px :)
06:12<FLHerne>Mm, so it's a good yardstick for how ridiculously huge a 200px bridge would be
06:12<FLHerne>Lower limit might be sane ;p
06:25<andythenorth>ach, 1 more FIRS thing done for v3
06:27<adf88>are you familiar with the glitch in zBase on tile grid lines?
06:27<adf88>ground sprites are anti-aliased thus blurred and oversized at edges
06:27<adf88>does the sprite sorter assume no overlapping, thus glitches?
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06:34<frosch123>ottd does not clear the previous screen contents before drawing
06:35<frosch123>is the groundtiles are not opaque, you will see whatever dirt there was before
06:35<frosch123>groundtiles are drawn top to bottom, unless there are foundations
06:36<adf88>so the sprites are undersized?
06:36<frosch123>yes, i think so
06:36<adf88>because it would mean that to less is being drawn right?
06:36<adf88>too less
06:38<frosch123>you could add a GfxFillRect at the beginning of ViewportDoDraw to clear the background
06:38<frosch123>grey if you want to hide it, pink if you want to make it obvious :)
06:42<frosch123>though not sure whether grey works with the outside-map area
06:48<adf88>nah, zBase should fix their sprites :p
06:52<andythenorth>frosch123: with ground types, how does overbuilding work? o_O
06:52<andythenorth>say I want to add tram to the current tile?
06:53<frosch123>the groundtype is asked whether it is possible. if it says no, you have two options: do not allow building tram, or revert ground to some default ground which allows everything
06:54<andythenorth>if I want to keep road on the tile, do I have to find the current roadtype in the UI?
06:54<frosch123>likely the former, since "default ground" may be weird
06:55<frosch123>andythenorth: you mean some query tool? set filter according to existing tile?
07:00<andythenorth>yes, I think
07:01<andythenorth>seems I have to know the current roadtype (or tramtype) before I can overbuild to add tram (or road)
07:02<frosch123>yes, if you have road and haul next to each other
07:02<frosch123>but other than that i would think incompatibiltiy is a rare case
07:03<andythenorth>something I can’t articulate there
07:03<andythenorth>hmm, maybe it’s a non issue
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07:42<andythenorth>anyone fancy testing FIRS Basic economies, now that MNSP is removed?
07:42<andythenorth>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/
07:49<adf88>damn
07:49<adf88>another thing hard to revert
07:49<adf88>why there are two bits used to store "is bridge above" state in Tile::type?
07:49<adf88> one would be enough
07:55<LordAro>adf88: oh, i did make my own FALLTHROUGH patch, looked very similar to yours :)
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07:55<LordAro>naturally i'm currently away from the computer with it on
07:56<adf88>i just did basic grep/sed and fix warnings that's all
07:56<adf88>the patch needs tweak for different compilers tho
07:57<LordAro>yeah, basically
07:57<LordAro>i think i had gotten that far
07:57<LordAro>wanted to test with clang as well, iirc
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08:10<FLHerne>adf88: Not for different bridge axes?
08:10<adf88>if only bridges could cross each other...
08:11<FLHerne>If there's a bridge above and that matters, you have to search for a bridgehead to actually get any info on the bridge
08:11<FLHerne>Separate flags for each axis would reduce the number of wasted tiles to search
08:11<adf88>ah, yes, you're right
08:12<adf88>didn't spot that
08:13<FLHerne>But then, it's rare to build very many bridges in parallel, so it might not help very much
08:15<frosch123>you only need to change a few lines to allow crossing bridges :)
08:15<frosch123>it will look bad, but it likely works
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08:21<andythenorth>is 15 years of play enough to test an economy? o_O
08:22<frosch123>to mass produce some medicine i think you need to test it with 20 people
08:32<andythenorth>is FIRS a controlled substance?
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08:43<Wolf01>I almost emptied my netflix watchlist, there are all the star trek series now
08:44<Flygon>To go or seen?
08:44<Flygon>I really gotta watch through TOS and Enterprise before hitting Discovery when it comes.
08:45<Wolf01>To go, I've seen a lot of anime series I missed before
08:45<Wolf01>And movies
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08:48<Flygon>Oh man.
08:49<Flygon>Yeah, that'll keep you busy for at least 3 months.
08:49<Flygon>...add a week if you're gonna do the films.
08:49<Flygon>Oh! Wolf01.
08:49<Flygon>Add Heavy Metal, if you haven't seen it.
08:49<Flygon>Possibly the greatest Canadian film of all time.
08:50<Flygon>Oh, crap.
08:50<Wolf01>Eh... not available in my country
08:50<Flygon>I thought this was a different IRC network and channel.
08:50<Flygon>Yeah, I thought this was an... er, AU-related channel.
08:50<Flygon>Yeah, it's on AU Netflix.
08:52<Wolf01>BTW I know it
08:52<Flygon>The film?
08:53<Wolf01>Yes
08:53<Flygon>Aye.
08:57<Flygon>Then you probably know why I'm so embaressed espousing it in #openttd hahaha.
08:57<Flygon>I saw your name and my brain went "Oh, yep. Definitely this channel that casually discusses R-rated films".
08:58<Eddi|zuHause>why shouldn't that be a thing that we discuss?
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09:00<Flygon>Not really something I ever saw discussed here. :V
09:04<Wolf01>I think we are almost all of the right age here :P
09:08<Eddi|zuHause>i mean, if you straight out linked porn here, i could see people going "don't do that"... but casually suggesting a movie?
09:19<Flygon>I'm a very shy man!
09:19<Wolf01>Me too, but not on internet, on internet I'm a werehuman (a wolf which transforms to human)
09:22<Flygon>You are possibly the single greatest enemy to the furry fandom. :P
09:22<Wolf01>Not a furry
09:22<Flygon>Hence enemy!
09:22<Wolf01>:P
09:22<Wolf01>Also not brony and other stuff like that
09:23<Wolf01>Only lego
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09:30<Flygon>I'm beginning to regret colourizing and inbetweening this animation in pixel art.
09:30<Flygon>Onion skinning works poorly at low res.
10:05<Wolf01>Also https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aWqMQo2_460sv.mp4
10:07<frosch123>i know it, but i cannot name it
10:07<Wolf01>GoT
10:07<frosch123>it's likely vangelis, but which movie?
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10:08<frosch123>oi, i was thinking along dark star or something :p
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10:10<Wolf01>Also I don't know if I would like to start watching the new season this night or wait until the end and watch it all
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10:41<supermop_>andythenorth I rarely play more than 15 years
10:42<supermop_>any seriously built out passenger network can't really be readily overhauled past that point so I lose interest
10:45<supermop_>Wolf01what is the lego version of furry? stubby?
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10:47<supermop_>yo Alberth
10:49<@Alberth>o/
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11:07<Fabinis>good day, what port should i open to host openttd server? TCP 3979 ?
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11:12<Wolf01>@ports
11:12<@DorpsGek>Wolf01: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
11:16<Wolf01>https://www.packtpub.com/packt/offers/free-learning machine learning NML...
11:16<Wolf01>Maybe soon or later it learns to combine FIRS automagically
11:16<Wolf01>o/ Alberth
11:16<Wolf01><supermop_> Wolf01what is the lego version of furry? stubby? <- wtf XD
11:17<Fabinis>thx
11:25<@Alberth>the problem with those books is that you also have to read them :p
11:26<Wolf01>I read all the titles
11:29<@Alberth>aka a very short summary :)
11:34<Wolf01>Also I'm a hoarder, something might always be useful :P
11:35<andythenorth>eh Temperate Basic FIRS is good
11:35*andythenorth had better test the next one
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12:58<andythenorth>frosch123 …you thought there was a way to shuffle the FIRS economy order in action 14, without breaking saves? o_O
12:59<frosch123>yes
13:00<Exec>Hey. https://i.imgur.com/EGI6O3h.png I have this mess of lines/junctions. Any ideas to make it better? :D I can't destroy buildings, not in the current state with those cities. Money is not much of an issue (although I wouldn't use the bribe option)
13:00<andythenorth>more bridges? o_O
13:02<frosch123>more bridges, more tunnels, less sharp curves
13:03<__ln__>do you mean curves that are less sharp, or fewer sharp curves
13:03<frosch123>either way works
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13:04<Eddi|zuHause>i'd say the former is a better goal, because it's the sharpness of the curves that is the bigger problem, not the amount of curves
13:09<frosch123>wow, there are areas in the world where felix is spelled feliks
13:09<andythenorth>hmm
13:09<andythenorth>PIPE needs some dedicated station and depot sprites
13:12<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8500/PIPE_2.png
13:23<frosch123>hmm, meh, reordering economies does not work :/
13:23<frosch123>the numeric values of the combobox items must be consecutive
13:24<andythenorth>that’s what I found :)
13:24<andythenorth>glad it’s not just me :P
13:24<andythenorth>there is a mechanism to abstract the position from the numeric_id
13:24<andythenorth>but not in a way that will preserve savegames
13:25<andythenorth>and I’m not sure it actually works :P
13:37<Wolf01>Preserving savegames is easy, breaking change -> new major version
13:38<andythenorth>I might just break savegame :P
13:38<andythenorth>including my own
13:39<Wolf01>As if it never happened before
13:39<Wolf01>¯\_(ツ)_/¯
13:41<frosch123>removing MNSP should already break everything
13:45<andythenorth>yes
13:45<andythenorth>FIRS 2 savegames were long ago broken :O
13:46<andythenorth>wrong emoji :P
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13:58<andythenorth>Tropic Basic is probably ok
13:58<andythenorth>3 years in, I don’t miss MNSP :P
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14:19*andythenorth uses the ‘jet planes won’t crash (much)’ cheat
14:19<andythenorth>bad andythenorth
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14:29<Eddi|zuHause>how dare you! you must only play the pure base game. (no newgrf, all default settings)
14:29<Eddi|zuHause>actually, not even default settings, but the default settings of 10 years ago
14:29<andythenorth>I just can’t be building big airports for delivering supplies to oil wells :P
14:29<Eddi|zuHause>helicopters
14:30<andythenorth>too slow for the distance
14:30<Eddi|zuHause>i once used zeppelins
14:30<andythenorth>+1
14:30<andythenorth>zellepins are great for that
14:30<andythenorth>@seen pikka
14:30<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: pikka was last seen in #openttd 15 weeks, 5 days, 23 hours, 11 minutes, and 35 seconds ago: <Pikka> not really sure yet
14:33<Wolf01>Indeed
14:33<andythenorth>so should we have a NewNotRoadTypes spec?
14:34<andythenorth>it’s 12 months since I wrote the last one :P
14:34<Wolf01>Add some punctuation and release it as v2
14:35<Wolf01>Shit... already 1 year?
14:35<Wolf01>Meh...
14:35<andythenorth>stuff takes time :)
14:43<frosch123>10 years ago i wrote grf2html :)
14:51<andythenorth>9 years of FIRS :P
14:52<andythenorth>ok time to break savegames :P
14:52<andythenorth>more
14:53<V453000>._.
14:53<V453000>what is years
14:54<andythenorth>365.25 days, no?
14:54<andythenorth>how long are slug years?
14:54<V453000>yes
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15:01<andythenorth>V453000: have you drawn the FIRS industries I need yet?
15:03<V453000>not one pixel done
15:07<andythenorth>bit lame
15:09<frosch123>maybe you can trick him into thinking slug and slag being the same
15:09<@Alberth>I think slag would make great food for slugs
15:11<Eddi|zuHause>they used slag around here to pave roads
15:11<Eddi|zuHause>they get incredibly slippery when wet
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15:46<andythenorth>I need a grfid for OpenGFX+ industries
15:46<andythenorth>w.r.t http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/8322
15:46<andythenorth>oh, the patch has it on the issue :)
15:46<andythenorth>winner
15:52<@Alberth>took only a year to find it :)
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16:00*andythenorth closing tickets :)
16:02<andythenorth>not many left http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/issues
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16:08<@Alberth>:O
16:08<@Alberth>almost done :p
16:10<andythenorth>I have a local list :P
16:10<andythenorth>not done
16:10<andythenorth>but done enough for v3 nearly :D
16:11<andythenorth>not sure how many more economies I’ll add
16:12<@Alberth>it ends at 128 industries, I guess
16:12<andythenorth>likely
16:13<andythenorth>I want to do a Pacific Northwest economy
16:13<@Alberth>but you may run out of different look & feel before
16:13<andythenorth>and rework Extreme
16:14<andythenorth>I had ideas about Japan, and maybe an ‘Urban’ economy
16:14<andythenorth>coffee -> coffee shop
16:14<andythenorth>tablets -> electronics shop :P
16:14<@Alberth>yep, extreme needs more indsutries, obviously
16:14<andythenorth>I think urban might suck to play :P
16:14<andythenorth>extreme breaks my head
16:14<@Alberth>nice for those mega-cities people
16:15<andythenorth>I think I might allow someone else to invent Urban
16:15<@Alberth>relabel to "hysteric accident"
16:15<andythenorth>and Japan, it’s only adding rice that appeals
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16:15<@Alberth>and tea :p
16:15<andythenorth>hmm, tea
16:15<andythenorth>india
16:15<andythenorth>I had an idea about australia and exporting, but it overlaps IAHC
16:16<@Alberth>didn't play that since the rename, I think
16:16<andythenorth>it’s ok
16:18<@Alberth>in india you need wagons with people on top of the roof :p
16:19<@Alberth>japan set has no industries?
16:20<andythenorth>not sure
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16:20<andythenorth>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=723411
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>you should mark all newgrfs incompatible that you did not write yourself!!
16:23<frosch123>india needs durian farm
16:23<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I wanted to reserve a range of grfids
16:24<andythenorth>where do I apply? :|
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>last i heard the CA?? range was up for grabs :p
16:27<andythenorth>I’ll need a warranty
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16:29<frosch123>is firs3 incompatible with firs2?
16:30<andythenorth>yes
16:30<frosch123>i thought it was obvious to forget that check :)
16:30<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/entry/src/incompatible_grfs.py#L36
16:30<andythenorth>I nearly forgot :P
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>that's really a non-issue if you just keep the grfid
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>and just increase the minimum compatible version in the A14
16:31<andythenorth>then I can’t have both versions on Bananaramas
16:31<andythenorth>leaving the old one around appeases those who hate the changes
16:31<andythenorth>maybe
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>maybe you should have different GRFIDs for "release" and "development" :p
16:32<andythenorth>also I need a grfid for “Preindustrial era houses”
16:32<andythenorth>and “Oil rig layout"
16:32<andythenorth>whatever they are
16:32<andythenorth>apparently incompatible
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16:41<Wolf01>Mmmh I was training for couple lego speedbuild, but alone is not the same :P
16:42<supermop_>the house one does something with coal
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18:21<SpComb>https://pngtile.qmsk.net/terom/openttd/giant-sample/ I've updated the code for these again, it's now also available as a Docker image: https://github.com/qmsk/pngtile https://hub.docker.com/r/qmsk/pngtile/
18:21<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause: ^ I think I remember you trying to get that running once
18:21<Eddi|zuHause>I don't think so
18:24<SpComb>11:16:45 * peter1138 fails at getting SpComb's pngtile to... well, do anything :s
18:24<SpComb>21:08:34 < Eddi|zuHause> yorick: SpComb had a "pngtile" project
18:25<Eddi|zuHause>that is not "me trying to get it to run"
18:25<Wolf01>Oh shit, scrollable ottd pictures
18:25<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause: april 2011 :(
18:26<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: I mean, sure, i am appreciating the effort :)
18:26<Wolf01>Thats like last ice age
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19:06<supermop_>man i wasted the whole day
19:09<SpComb>I've been hacking away at pngtile for about 15h straight today, feelsgood
19:18<Wolf01><supermop_> man i wasted the whole day <- better than 2 whole years
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22:08-!-Bhootrk_ is "realname" on #debian-publicity #debian-qa #debian-reproducible #debian-ruby #debian-systemd #debian-www #fish #freedombox #gcc #koha #kosagi #linux-rt #linuxfs #mastodon-administration #mingw-w64 #mm #msys2 #munin #ooni #open-maps-more-than-maps #openjdk #openttd #openttdcoop #osm #osm-de #osm-dev #osm-es #otr #ovirt #packaging #pax #publiclab #qemu #Qubes_OS #redditprivacy #reproducible-builds #sepia #slackware #spi #subgraph #suckless #tor #virt #vserver #zcash
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22:09-!-Bhootrk_ is "realname" on #debian-publicity #debian-qa #debian-reproducible #debian-ruby #debian-systemd #debian-www #fish #freedombox #gcc #koha #kosagi #linux-rt #linuxfs #mastodon-administration #mingw-w64 #mm #msys2 #munin #ooni #open-maps-more-than-maps #openjdk #openttd #openttdcoop #osm #osm-de #osm-dev #osm-es #otr #ovirt #packaging #pax #publiclab #qemu #Qubes_OS #redditprivacy #reproducible-builds #sepia #slackware #spi #subgraph #suckless #tor #virt #vserver #zcash
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22:11-!-Bhootrk_ is "realname" on #debian-publicity #debian-qa #debian-reproducible #debian-ruby #debian-systemd #debian-www #fish #freedombox #gcc #koha #kosagi #linux-rt #linuxfs #mastodon-administration #mingw-w64 #mm #msys2 #munin #ooni #open-maps-more-than-maps #openjdk #openttd #openttdcoop #osm #osm-de #osm-dev #osm-es #otr #ovirt #packaging #pax #publiclab #qemu #Qubes_OS #redditprivacy #reproducible-builds #sepia #slackware #spi #subgraph #suckless #tor #virt #vserver #zcash
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22:12-!-Bhootrk_ is "realname" on #debian-publicity #debian-qa #debian-reproducible #debian-ruby #debian-systemd #debian-www #fish #freedombox #gcc #koha #kosagi #linux-rt #linuxfs #mastodon-administration #mingw-w64 #mm #msys2 #munin #ooni #open-maps-more-than-maps #openjdk #openttd #openttdcoop #osm #osm-de #osm-dev #osm-es #otr #ovirt #packaging #pax #publiclab #qemu #Qubes_OS #redditprivacy #reproducible-builds #sepia #slackware #spi #subgraph #suckless #tor #virt #vserver #zcash
23:12-!-Maarten [~maarten@99.173.18.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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---Logclosed Mon Jul 17 00:00:14 2017