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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-08-01

---Logopened Tue Aug 01 00:00:35 2017
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05:03<Wolf01>o/
05:03<Arveen2>\o
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05:12<Wolf01>o/
05:12<andythenorth_>Hi wolf
05:13*andythenorth_ thinking about groundtypes
05:14<andythenorth_>might be annoying to use
05:14<andythenorth_>for example overbuilding tram on multiple ground types
05:14<@peter1138>underground types
05:14<@peter1138>3d map array
05:14<Wolf01>I have been thinking for 2 days how to refactor the vehicle movement code
05:14<andythenorth_>lawks
05:15<@peter1138>larks
05:15<@peter1138>rewrite
05:15<andythenorth_>3D vehicle movement
05:15<Wolf01>And put it into external resources
05:15<andythenorth_>peter1138 something needs shaking up eh?
05:15<andythenorth_>NewBugs
05:21<andythenorth_>Wolf01 what's the unsolvable thing for NRT? Trolleybus on town roads?
05:22<Wolf01>No, that's easily solvable
05:22<andythenorth_>How?
05:22<Wolf01>Just change it so you can convert city owned roads
05:23<Wolf01>The worst thing is the ability to tell what has the catenary, if road or tramway
05:23<andythenorth_>to arbitrary roadtypes?
05:24<andythenorth_>Or using some compatibility graph?
05:24<Wolf01>It would be cool to have some compatibility graph
05:24<andythenorth_>having two types of catenary is dumb
05:24<andythenorth_>There should just be one type
05:24<andythenorth_>It's a game
05:25<andythenorth_>But then we can't use label-based vehicle compatibility
05:25<Wolf01>BTW, you can't even make town roads as one way right now
05:25<andythenorth_>Have to have a catenary bool
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05:25<Wolf01>o/
05:25<@Alberth>o/
05:25<andythenorth_>Lo alberth
05:26<andythenorth_>Is everyone on holidays? Or slow time at work?
05:26<Wolf01>The catenary bool was a great idea
05:26<andythenorth_>was it? :)
05:26<andythenorth_>but then labels don't determine power
05:28<Wolf01>I fail to see the downsides... ROAD and ELRD vs ROAD+catenary
05:28<V453000>hello gentlemen
05:28<V453000>I shit brix
05:28<Wolf01>Hello sluglord
05:28<andythenorth_>downside is it doesn't work like railtypes
05:28<andythenorth_>lo V
05:28<andythenorth_>such textures
05:28<Wolf01>That's the problem, road isn't rail
05:29<V453000>need moar
05:29<V453000>hand painting my ass
05:30<andythenorth_>I have child #1 drawing pixels now
05:30<V453000>automation
05:30<andythenorth_>Pixelmator on ios
05:30<andythenorth_>need apple $1m pencil
05:31<V453000>I was actually considering buying an ipad for drawing in subway
05:31<V453000>but the pencil is utterly puny when compared to wacom's pen
05:32<andythenorth_>haven't tried pencil
05:32<Wolf01>Just buy a surface
05:32<andythenorth_>Ipad pro genuinely good hardware
05:32<andythenorth_>But
05:32<V453000>fun part, I am still considering bying an ipad for drawing in subway since I don't dare carrying my 2k euro tablet in subway...
05:32<andythenorth_>Ios still sucks balls
05:32<V453000>yeah ios = no full photoshop
05:32<V453000>= the fuck
05:34<andythenorth_>Photoshop will die
05:34<andythenorth_>Affinity will kill it
05:34<Wolf01>Uhm, there's the lenovo yoga, but I don't know if it supports pens
05:34<V453000>is SF the critical person to do the killing blow? :D
05:35<andythenorth_>biab
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05:45<andythenorth_>anyone used the CargoSprinter thing in Iron Horse?
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05:59<@Alberth>pax thingie, isn't it?
05:59<@Alberth>I think I used it a few times
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06:00<@Alberth>but I never build serious pax networks :p
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06:18<Wolf01>I forgot how github works...
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06:22<@Alberth>it's a website, just click on buttons :p
06:22<Wolf01>It's not user friendly... and local git says "Error encountered while pushing to the remote repository: Not a valid reference 'origin/master'"
06:22<Wolf01>But I've just updated that
06:23<@Alberth>git isn't friendly indeed
06:23<@Alberth>you're on the local master, and not origin/master ?
06:23<Wolf01>Local master
06:23<@Alberth>ie not trying to push origin/master?
06:24<Wolf01>I'm trying to sync it with OTTD/master
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06:25<@Alberth>you fetch wit a repo, not with a branch, although you can select a branch to update, perhaps
06:25<@Alberth>s/with/from/
06:25<@Alberth>at least, it sounds like you do git fetch origin/master
06:25<Alkel_U3>but git is really easy https://xkcd.com/1597/
06:27<@Alberth>it's horrible that people don't just refuse this kind of crap :(
06:29<@Alberth>option to pull a branch doesn't even exist, you simply get all updates, I think
06:30<@Alberth>ie git fetch origin
06:33<Wolf01>BTW, to sync my origin with OTTD, base(mine)...head(OTTD) or the contrary? Because it was too difficult to write "merge X into Y" like I have on the desktop client...
06:35<__ln__>what do you mean "option to pull a branch doesn't even exist"
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06:42<@Alberth>git-fetch(1) doesn't have an option to specify a branch
06:42<@Alberth>s/have/list/
06:42<__ln__>why don't you pull instead of fetch
06:44<@Alberth>"... git pull is shorthand for git fetch followed by git merge FETCH_HEAD"
06:44<@Alberth>and I usually don't want to do that merge and only that merge
06:44<Wolf01>I always synced every branch alone
06:45<@Alberth>but since it does git fetch, you still can't get changes of just 1 branch, as far as I can see
06:45<@Alberth>Wolf01: pulling in new commits, and merging commits in your version are 2 different steps
06:46<@Alberth>former gets everything new from remote, as far as I can see, latter must be done 1 branch at a time
06:47<@Alberth>likely, you try to pull new updates every time, which takes some network traffic, but is otherwise harmless
06:47<Wolf01>No, I mean, I have 4 branches, I pull every branch individually, work/merge/etc, commit&push
06:47<@Alberth>so how do you get updates for a single branch with fetch?
06:48<Wolf01>I don't know, I use the UI
06:48<Wolf01>Just right click on the item and "fetch"
06:48<Wolf01>Or directly "pull"
06:48<@Alberth>so how do you know you don't pull everything the first time?
06:49<Wolf01>Because when I switch to another branch it's not updated
06:49<@Alberth>pulling and updating a local branch are 2 different things
06:49<@Alberth>maybe the UI confuses things here
06:50<@Alberth>but it's not what git does
07:02<blathijs>Actuall, git fetch takes a refspec argument, so I think you can do "git fetch origin some_branch"
07:02<blathijs>Though I think it doesn't use the default fetch storage config, so it only fetches into FETCH_HEAD if you do that I believbe
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07:03<blathijs>Oh, it actually does update the remote-tracking branch, if it exists, according to the git-fetch manpage
07:04<@Alberth>that would be logical :)
07:04<blathijs>I often use it to fetch pull requests from github, using git fetch origin pull/123/head, but then it only updates FETCH_HEAD
07:05<@Alberth>since 123 branch doesn't exist, I guess
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09:26<supermop_>yo
09:33<Arveen2>https://media.giphy.com/media/11ZSwQNWba4YF2/giphy.gif
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09:52<Wolf01>Mmmh, should the movement defined by the tile for all vehicles or by the vehicle in that particular tile?
09:53<Wolf01>*should be
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09:57<Wolf01>A) makes easy to define movement for different things, like on different road stops, ramps, roundabouts; B) allow to have vehicles moving in a different way, allowing for example different turn radius based on vehicle lenght
10:04<supermop_>notStateMachines?
10:05<Wolf01>My idea was to put the actual vehicle movement arrays into a grf
10:05<supermop_>i want non loop tram end of lines
10:06<supermop_>or single track you so you can force trams to go around a loop in the same direction
10:07<Wolf01>I want to make vehicles always overtake on one way roads
10:07<supermop_>but a tram might be 2-3 tiles long, and a switch that lets it reverse would have to then control movement on several tiles past its own
10:14<supermop_>so basically what i need instead is an n-scale model tramway on my desk
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10:16<andythenorth_>Wolf01
10:16<andythenorth_>did you sort the repo sync?
10:16<Wolf01>Yeah
10:16<andythenorth_>pull ottd/master
10:16<andythenorth_>merge, push
10:16<Wolf01>I made a direct link now, so next time I should just make a pull request from that one
10:17<Wolf01>Stupid cross repo merge UI
10:18<andythenorth_>I use shell :p
10:18<andythenorth_>I can't imagine using a git UI
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10:23<andythenorth_>anyone ever use narrow gauge in Iron Horse?
10:23<Wolf01>I only use rail/elrl :P
10:24<Wolf01>Not even mono or maglev
10:27<supermop_>i do to look pretty
10:28<supermop_>and in that one switchback game i posted on here from years back
10:28<supermop_>NG passenger service is rarely sensible
10:28<supermop_>i sometimes used it to save money in early games
10:33<Wolf01><supermop_> but a tram might be 2-3 tiles long, and a switch that lets it reverse would have to then control movement on several tiles past its own <- basically you want a sort of wye
10:34<andythenorth_>depot :p
10:34<andythenorth_>infinite length wye
10:35<andythenorth_>supermop_: so I should delete NG? o_O
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10:42<Wolf01>Mmmh, reimplement tram EOL loop as zigzag
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11:12<Wolf01>Quak
11:13<frosch123>moi
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12:22<supermop_>Wolf01: not quite a wye
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12:24<supermop_>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=72718&hilit=bluestone
12:24<supermop_>like the crossover at upper left
12:25<Wolf01>Yeah
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12:29<supermop_>i guess i could actually code all these roads now
12:30<supermop_>i no longer have the rendering plug in i used for those however
12:31<supermop_>would need to redo all the textures for vray
12:31<andythenorth_>i guess I should keep narrow gauge eh?
12:31<supermop_>andythenorth_: it looks pretty
12:33<andythenorth_>logically, it would be better done as light rail in road hog
12:33<andythenorth_>at least for this roster in IH, where NG is not important
12:34<andythenorth_>maybe when I have laptop I can do something for NRT
12:34<andythenorth_>to aid finishing it
12:36<andythenorth_>frosch123 with groundtypes, how would tram reverse loops be built?
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12:43<supermop_>by original plan was to draw the U loops at end of line as N crossovers
12:43<supermop_>and let the trams look stupid when using them
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12:55*andythenorth_ wonders how the bits get in the tile
13:02<Wolf01>Single tram track in the middle of the road?
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13:04<supermop_>single track tram in middle of airport runway
13:05<supermop_>helipad in middle of log flume
13:05<supermop_>runway in middle of subway
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13:31<frosch123>andythenorth_: what is special about tram reverse loops?
13:31<frosch123>why/what should be different?
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13:35<Wolf01>He is worried about identifying the *type
13:35<andythenorth_>if tram is built with road, then it will be tricky to add reverse loops where the road needs to continue
13:35<andythenorth_>a unified building tool makes that impossible
13:36<Wolf01>You continue with building just the road?
13:36<andythenorth_>the tram bits and road bits are same
13:36<frosch123>since when are tram and road built together?
13:36<andythenorth_>assuming groundtypes
13:36<frosch123>groundtypes does not change the gameplay
13:36<andythenorth_>only one groundtype per tile
13:36<Wolf01>I don't think bits will be touched
13:36<frosch123>it's just shuffles who provides which graphics
13:38<andythenorth_>so what's the UI sequence (clicks) for adding say TRAM to say cobble road?
13:38<frosch123>btw. there is yet a third option: allow 100 road types, 100 tram types, but only allow 256 combinations of road/tram type in a single game
13:38<andythenorth_>if I lose connection I'll rejoin btw :p
13:38<frosch123>andythenorth_: same as now? select tram, add tram
13:39<andythenorth_>which type of tram?
13:39<andythenorth_>provided by which grf?
13:39<frosch123>the tram that is built is not necessarily the tram you selected
13:40<andythenorth_>likely I've misunderstood groundtypes proposal :)
13:40<andythenorth_>and UI
13:40<frosch123>like already today: adding unelectrified trackbits to electrified track keeps it electrified
13:40<Wolf01>I still have one question: if the grf author has both tramway with catenary and trolleybus, and defines sprites for ROAD+ELRL and ELRD+RAIL, what does it change from now?
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13:41<frosch123>Wolf01: all sprites on a tile are provided by a single grf, so the grf has full control to make the appearance unique
13:41<Wolf01>And if I want to install one grfs with only roadtypes and one with tramtypes?
13:41<frosch123>with separate road and tram grfs we always make one draw/win over the other
13:41<Wolf01>Rekt?
13:42<frosch123>tbh i don't see much tramtypes happen
13:44<frosch123>wrt. compatibility i do not expect more than 4 roadtypes and 3 tramtypes, but i expect tons of visual options which do not affect compatibility at all
13:44<andythenorth_>groundtypes would be built similar to objects?
13:45<andythenorth_>so I might have a window with 'cobble road', 'cobble road with catenary', 'cobble road with tram', cobble road with tram and catenary'?
13:46<andythenorth_>ah but they're all on egroundtype
13:46<andythenorth_>so for reverse loop I just choose a different variant of same groundtype
13:47<Wolf01>I had a weird idea, also, remove tramtypes at all, have 30 roadtypes which define the graphics for both road and road+tram (tram only uses the current graphics), and you add both rail and catenary as flags
13:47<andythenorth_>somewhat my original hack :D
13:48<frosch123>i don't know depots would behave; but for ordinary tracks i imagine 3 tools: build roadbits (only upgrade ground), build trambits (only upgrade ground), change ground without modifying bits
13:48<frosch123>3 conversion tools: convert road, convert tram, convert ground
13:48<andythenorth_>we need a UI mockup :)
13:49<andythenorth_>but I am on a phone :p
13:52<Wolf01>Mmmh, I don't understand well how ground should behave (I understood it has some properties which allow or not certain combinations) but there isn't much to mock, the other tools just continue to work like they are now
13:57<andythenorth_>what would be the most awesome thing, as a player?
13:57<Wolf01>Full freedom
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13:58<andythenorth_>nah the UI for that would be unusable ;)
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13:58<frosch123>merging two tiles into a 6 lane road with 2xroad,2xtram,2xroad :p
13:59<andythenorth_>full freedom would imply precise control over each layer (ground, road, sidewalks etc) :)
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14:00<Wolf01>Which is a combination of NRT and newobjects
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14:01<andythenorth_>frosch123: also clover leaf junctions :p
14:01<frosch123>split before merge :p
14:02<andythenorth_>different lanes
14:02<andythenorth_>blah blah
14:04<andythenorth_>what's the country roads grf?
14:04*andythenorth_ looks
14:07<andythenorth_>mud and sand
14:08<Wolf01>BTW, making *types dynamic would be cool, so you can have 28 roads and 2 trams, with curated graphics so every combination is drawn and approved by the author itself
14:09<Wolf01>And the author decides which combinations won't be possible to have
14:09<andythenorth_>could supermop roadtypes be done with sidewalks overlay?
14:10<supermop_>done as in complete? sure
14:10*andythenorth_ wondering about object-style eye candy layer
14:10<supermop_>sidewalks/benches/trees/lamps/whatever
14:10<frosch123>it's like the trees
14:11<frosch123>just that sidewalks are not toggleable via transparency settings
14:11<Wolf01>A grf could provide only one thing? For example, can you have a vehicle+roadtype+object all in one?
14:13<andythenorth_>RH provides vehicles and roadtypes in one grf
14:14<andythenorth_>biab, will lose connection now
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16:09<andythenorth_>is it resolved then? :D
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16:53<Eddi|zuHause><Wolf01> A grf could provide only one thing? For example, can you have a vehicle+roadtype+object all in one? <-- all-in-one grfs tend to turn out terrible in the long run... people keep asking "could i have part X without part Y?"
16:54<Eddi|zuHause>usually because something new popped up which does Y in a better way
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17:24<andythenorth_>such train lengths
17:25*andythenorth_ figuring out narrow gauge now
17:25<andythenorth_>nearly figured all of v2 Iron Horse :)
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17:27<andythenorth_>wondering if 2/8 is plausible, for wagons
17:28<andythenorth_>it's only 8px in - view
17:28<andythenorth_>might be too small eh
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17:32<Eddi|zuHause>in CETS 3/16 was the shortest i did
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19:48<Wolf01>'night
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---Logclosed Wed Aug 02 00:00:36 2017