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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-08-04

---Logopened Fri Aug 04 00:00:39 2017
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04:40<Wolf01>o/
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04:42<@Alberth>o/
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10:12<V453000>my ass is grass and friday
10:12<V453000>sense you seek, sense you find in slugs
10:13<Arveen2>well, Ok then
10:13<Wolf01>:D
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10:20<HeyCitizen>help
10:22<HeyCitizen>no admins? no commands working? no one to help with trolls/blockers?
10:24<ST2>HeyCitizen :)
10:24<ST2>what you talking about?
10:24<V453000>this is the internet
10:24<V453000>we are sparta
10:25<HeyCitizen>so we have a couple of cities on server 1 that have become saturated with stations from the same player
10:25<HeyCitizen>doesnt give a fuuu
10:25<V453000>this is a general openttd channel not for some specific servers :P where are you from? reddit?
10:26<V453000>probably not
10:26<HeyCitizen>rediit ye
10:26<V453000>that would be channel #/r/openttd
10:27-!-NGC3982 [~milda@81-228-202-215-no69.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: leaving]
10:28<@peter1138>heh
10:28<@peter1138>but reddit is the front page of the internet, or something
10:29<V453000>right that
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13:12<Wolf01>https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/a88oVXO_700b_v1.jpg and then there's Italy which is so shitty which isn't even considered for the charts :P
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13:12-!-Maraxus is "Maraxus" on #openttd #factoriocoop @#openttdcoop.stable @#openttdcoop
13:20<Wolf01>Oh, something I could draw!
13:20<Wolf01>https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aGejLLX_700b.jpg
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13:38<V453000>well there you go ;P
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14:04<Wolf01>V, why no FFF yet? Was your turn heh? :D
14:04<V453000>nah
14:04<V453000>I'm probably not going to write anything for a while
14:04<V453000>doing small things, not much to tell
14:05<Wolf01>You could talk about slugs
14:05<V453000>probably not :)
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14:30<@Alberth>Wolf01: They added Belgium, but not Holland :p
14:30<@Alberth>while we are quite well connected
14:31<@Alberth>probably we didn't fit in the message they wanted to give :p
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14:46<Eddi|zuHause>i'm surprised germany is even on that list
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15:21<Wolf01>Miau
15:21<andythenorth>hi
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15:37*andythenorth back at a real laptop
15:38<andythenorth>phones and tablets really don’t cut it :P
15:38<Wolf01>\o/
15:40<andythenorth>everything is remarkably better on a proper device
15:52<andythenorth>did anyone finish FIRS 3 while I was away? o_O
15:54<Wolf01>There was a guy, andythe_ or something like it who wanted to do it
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15:58<andythenorth>should port-type industries include a dock/heliport tile?
15:58<andythenorth>(station)
15:59<Wolf01>Like oil rigs but on shores?
16:00<andythenorth>yup
16:01<Wolf01>It would be better to have a port included
16:02<andythenorth>I just argued in forums that it would suck :)
16:03<gpsoft>Anybody knows how to analyse crash logs?
16:04<Wolf01>Maybe they could be used to spoil cargo distribution in an infrastructure sharing flavour like oil rigs do
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16:15<supermop_>andythenorth: port would be neat
16:16<supermop_>esp when port builds itself in such a way it is awkward to fit your own dock in without terraforming
16:16<andythenorth>double posts are BAD eh?
16:16*andythenorth just released another FIRS, but last post in FIRS thread is mine :P
16:16<supermop_>i guess the dock might get stuck by terrain sometimes though
16:16<andythenorth>yup
16:17<andythenorth>also heliports :P
16:17<supermop_>really heliports could go anywhere i guess
16:19<andythenorth>maybe we need newgrf industry stations :P
16:19<andythenorth>probably not eh
16:19<andythenorth>NewDocks would be better :)
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16:20<Wolf01>Also NotWater could be better
16:21<andythenorth>currently we’re NotShipping :)
16:21<andythenorth>terrible pun :P
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16:25<Wolf01>Shit, I lost track of the ant, they smell my biscuits :|
16:28<andythenorth>that’s like a haiku
16:28<Wolf01>If the structure is fine, then it would be my first one XD
16:41<supermop_>Wolf01: no one says that after a few thousand years you cannot invent your own new poetry structure
16:41<supermop_>should head to LGA soon, but flight delayed 2.5 hours
16:41<Wolf01>:(
16:42<supermop_>dislike laguardia
16:42<supermop_>dislike united
16:42<Wolf01>At least you aren't kept in detention like my last time
16:42*andythenorth all done with flying today
16:42<andythenorth>3.5 hours
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16:49<supermop_>wheres that to then
16:50<supermop_>this one will just be LGA to ORD
16:50<supermop_>but summer in the midwest means ORD has delays for thunderstorms almost daily
16:51<andythenorth>flew back from Tenerife
16:57<supermop_>ooh now its been delayed an additional 75 min
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17:01<andythenorth>hmm
17:02<andythenorth>poor branch discipline means Road Hog is a bit fucked :P
17:02<andythenorth>I have fixes and code quality improvements mixed up with NRT stuff
17:03<supermop_>better just get NRT into trunk then
17:03<Wolf01>Yes
17:05<andythenorth>what’s left?
17:06<Wolf01>Stuff
17:06<andythenorth>always :)
17:06<Wolf01>Mainly fixes and a lot of features
17:06<Wolf01>GameScript integration
17:07<Wolf01>Maybe AI too
17:08<Wolf01>BTW, I love calling stuff stuff, my ex coworker seldom still ask me how to call a new class and I reply "Stuff" without giving him time to write "and don't answer with "Stuff""
17:14*andythenorth tests docklands and unspooled
17:14<supermop_>andythenorth: they are just pixels
17:14<andythenorth>isn’t it
17:15*andythenorth wondering wtf to do about NRT spec :)
17:16<supermop_>need level crossing pixels
17:16<andythenorth>wondering if roads should be built like rail stations are built
17:16<andythenorth>choose route/vehicle type
17:16<supermop_>actually i think i drew level crossings, just didn't know how to code them
17:16<andythenorth>then choose sprites
17:16<andythenorth>appearance and routing should be orthogonal
17:17<andythenorth>it’s more steps for building though
17:17<andythenorth>is catenary appearance, or routing?
17:18<andythenorth>supermop_: is docklands serious, or hax? :)
17:18*andythenorth wondering if it would work better as road stops, or if it’s desirable that the tiles aren’t stops
17:18<supermop_>it is seriously something i wanted to see in game for a long time
17:19<supermop_>maybe, if road stops could be large and sprawling like richbk? wanted?
17:19<supermop_>dk if that was who it was
17:20<Wolf01>I sometime give a look at the vehicle movement code, it doesn't seem so difficult, maybe with a proper documentation...
17:21<Wolf01>I may look on making 4 lanes roadstops or such
17:21<andythenorth>road vehicle movement?
17:22*andythenorth has read road vehicle movement code
17:22<andythenorth>it’s not so bad
17:22<andythenorth>any changes to stations, roadstops, airports
17:22<andythenorth>always get stuck on ‘but we need a generic state machine for tiles, in newgrf'
17:22<Wolf01>Yes
17:22<andythenorth>which is, of course, fricking stupid and unachievable
17:22<andythenorth>in any practical sense
17:23<andythenorth>the number of people who could use such a state machine spec can probably be counted on two hands
17:23<Wolf01>Yes, because you might want to differentiate the movement by vehicle and by the tile graphics too
17:23<andythenorth>and the number of people who could design and implement the spec for it can be counted on no fingers or thumbs
17:24<andythenorth>it’s not always winning to do it in newgrf
17:24<andythenorth>hard-coding additional airports in ottd was a great move
17:24<andythenorth>the gameplay cost of that was very low, compared to theoretical idea of having arbitrary airports
17:24<andythenorth>most of which would suck
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17:25<Wolf01>He didn't like this
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17:26*andythenorth wonders if NRT should offer control over ‘sidewalks’
17:26<andythenorth>but eh, they’re drawn behind the road layer
17:27<andythenorth>basically an eye candy option, independent of the label
17:27<Wolf01>There are sidewalk features like poles, trees
17:27<andythenorth>same, I think as frosch is proposing with groundtypes, except I’m unclear exactly what groundtypes proposal is as yet
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17:27<supermop_>andythenorth: the number of people who can or will use any new spec or feature for openttd can probably be counted on two hands
17:28*andythenorth counts
17:28<supermop_>i can count the number of people using NRT spec on one hand with fingers to spare
17:28<Wolf01>I count 3
17:28<andythenorth>I used all fingers & thumbs trivially
17:28<andythenorth>:OP
17:29<andythenorth>not even counting people who’ve rage quit
17:29<andythenorth>I think there are 20 or 30 people creating credible work, and releasing
17:30<supermop_>one day i will join them to make it 21
17:30<andythenorth>basically if roads grew an eye candy option, then authors could add all the extra crap like parking lots, trees, fountains,
17:31<andythenorth>road signs
17:31<andythenorth>parked trucks
17:31<Wolf01>You can already use objects for that
17:31<andythenorth>snow ploughs
17:31<andythenorth>yeah, but these would be in the 8px or so at the edge of the road
17:31<andythenorth>flowerbeds
17:31<andythenorth>concrete median (dividers)
17:32<andythenorth>Wolf01: if you do figure out vehicle code, can you add a switch for ‘drift mode’?
17:32*andythenorth has been watching Ken Block videos again
17:32<andythenorth>drift is quite easy to simulate, I’ve done it in flash games
17:33<andythenorth>but ideally the rotation point is moved towards the vehicle front
17:33<Wolf01>Mmmmh
17:34<andythenorth>how many bits are left in the map then?
17:34<andythenorth>and what’s the idea about making tram and road both provided by same grf?
17:34<supermop_>idk
17:34<andythenorth>what is spec for that?
17:35<Wolf01>https://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=195989&sid=218e644e737dbf645af9708cdbba4f73 the only problem with objects is that they need to be on the free tiles on the sides, and they can "overflow" on the road
17:35<supermop_>seems like there is no need to enforcethat
17:35<Wolf01>It might be difficult in cities
17:35<supermop_>ok im going to try to go to the airport now
17:36<supermop_>expect NRT to be in stable when i get back
17:36<supermop_>later
17:36<andythenorth>:)
17:36<andythenorth>objects waste a lot of tiles Wolf01 ;)
17:37<andythenorth>have you tried the docklands grf?
17:37<Wolf01>Also, somebody just provided a patch to let cities build tramways, check the forum https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=76806
17:37<andythenorth>did he fork it from NRT? o_O
17:37<Wolf01><andythenorth> have you tried the docklands grf? <- yes, it's nice, finally got rid of the fake roads made with the non-track tiles stations
17:38<andythenorth>I think it’s docklands that most shows weakness of curent spec
17:38<andythenorth>all types there are equivalent, it’s just eye candy
17:38<Wolf01>Yes
17:39<Wolf01>That's the reason behind groundtypes
17:39<Wolf01>And the same reason behind my suggestion to make NRT types dynamic
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17:40<Wolf01>The only downside is that you have unified labels then, you can't make a HAUL road and a HAUL tramway
17:40<andythenorth>we need a UI mockup for groundtypes
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17:41<andythenorth>it’s something like objects, but more compact
17:41<Wolf01>Yeah
17:42<andythenorth>I don’t think it’s significant whether labels are unique or unified
17:42<andythenorth>either is fine, it should be chosen to fit other more important constraints
17:43<andythenorth>what’s the benefit of unifying?
17:44<Wolf01>Both kind of vehicles see the same list
17:45<Wolf01>Maybe you can even check if there's a tramway catenary from a trolleybus
17:46<Wolf01>Just query the tile types and OR the properties
17:46<Wolf01>If one of the two has catenary, then win
17:46<andythenorth>any other benefits? o_O
17:47<Wolf01>But I think we can already do that now, just change some stuff
17:47<Wolf01>Like cycle the types instead of getting the vehicle roadtype
17:47<Wolf01>I don't think there are many benefits
17:49<andythenorth>the catenary thing seems to be an outsized problem :P
17:49<Wolf01>BTW, the data structure will stay the same, is only the array in which are loaded the gfrs to change
17:50<Wolf01>Yes, it's just the "CompatibleRoadType()" to change
17:50<andythenorth>what’s the current set up, one catenary?
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17:50<Wolf01>Yes, road catenary wins
17:50<andythenorth>no, the spec says both types can define catenary
17:50<Wolf01>But only road's one will be drawn, if present
17:51<andythenorth>oh yes
17:51<andythenorth>ok
17:51<andythenorth>spec page mentions that
17:51<andythenorth>maybe just draw both :P
17:52<andythenorth>or leave it as is and [shrug]
17:52<andythenorth>I guess the problem remains knowing if trams have a valid route or not
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17:53<Wolf01>The game knows already what to do, the user has a hard way to tell if the route is valid
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17:54<andythenorth>and in 8bpp, drawing both catenaries will always be hard
17:55<andythenorth>hmm, well there will be a simplification somewhere
17:55*andythenorth will sleep on it
17:56<Wolf01>I would give a try with both catenaries, usually they should just overlap and draw 2 times the same pixels, worst case: http://ww3.hdnux.com/photos/25/23/56/5585806/3/rawImage.jpg
17:56<andythenorth>I considered overlapping
17:56<andythenorth>but that doesn’t solve the player routing knowledge :)
17:56<andythenorth>no visual cue
17:56<Wolf01>But back in time I made the transparent catenary options, so...
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17:57<andythenorth>it comes down to either
17:57<andythenorth>(1) distinct graphics or visual cue
17:57<andythenorth>or (2) a specific ‘needs catenary on tile’ flag for vehicles
17:58<andythenorth>requiring catenary limits potential for newgrf hax for weird stuff
17:59<andythenorth>and means vehicle author has to duplicate information (tramtype label and flag)
17:59<andythenorth>or having labels for electrified types is pointless
18:00<andythenorth>or (I think suggested already)
18:00<andythenorth>a single grf controls the tiles, and there’s a mapping of roadtypes:tramtypes
18:00<andythenorth>e.g, if it’s ELRD, then any tram bits are ELRL
18:01<Wolf01>(x) move the catenary to it's own bit into the tile (your first idea), add a tool to place catenary, newgrfs define catenary aspect (no separation between tramway and road ones|3 definitions: tram alone, road alone, road+tram|road = road+tram, tram alone)
18:02<andythenorth>eh, they’re all a bit complex eh?
18:02<Wolf01>There's no simple solution or we would already have done that
18:04<Wolf01>With road+tram means the author need to define all the possible combinations he want to make possible, it's combinatory, you'll get a soccer field of catenary sprites
18:08<andythenorth>the answer needs to come from player perspective
18:08<andythenorth>I can’t be having stuck trams, as player :)
18:09<andythenorth>the problem is that what looks like catenary in a sensible grf might be something else in a hax grf
18:09<andythenorth>or rather, we can’t rely on multiple grfs to co-operate at all
18:10<Wolf01>With groundtypes already you can only have only one grf's types on a tile
18:10<Wolf01>Maybe even only one NRT grf at all
18:10<andythenorth>hmm
18:10<andythenorth>callback
18:10<andythenorth>when adding roadtype/tramtype bits
18:11<andythenorth>stick the current roadtype/tramtype in a var, and let the author return what type it should be changed to
18:11<andythenorth>so e.g. if adding ELRD to a tile with ROAD and RAIL
18:11<andythenorth>the cb returns ELRL
18:12<andythenorth>assume authors do the right thing
18:12<andythenorth>with a cb, everything falls to author
18:13<andythenorth>they can check crazy stuff like date, terrain type, town zone, all kinds of crap
18:13<andythenorth>but a good grf will just make sure that trams work on trolleybus road and vice versa
18:13<andythenorth>and it’s all on the author to make it sane
18:14<andythenorth>I think this also fixes town roads
18:14<andythenorth>assuming that adding ELRL causes an upgrade to ELRD for the town-owned ROAD
18:15<andythenorth>if the author doesn’t want automatic conversion like that, it’s up to them
18:15<andythenorth>and they are responsible for confused players :P
18:16<Wolf01>Yup, I agree
18:16<andythenorth>also cbs are easy to spec and implement :P
18:16<andythenorth>I think this does maybe imply only one grf per tile
18:16<andythenorth>not sure
18:17<andythenorth>authors can trivially be responsible for the upgrade graph when they control the inputs
18:17<andythenorth>but not if the inputs (lables) are unknown and arbitrary (other grfs)
18:18<andythenorth>I don’t know how ‘only one grf per tile’ would be explainable in gameplay
18:18<andythenorth>seems like players would constantly see error message
18:19<Wolf01>With 3 NRT grfs we already got a crash
18:19<Wolf01>I'm for a single, well done NRT grf for each game
18:19<andythenorth>that is appealing
18:19<andythenorth>but goes against the prevailing trend for grfs
18:19<Wolf01>Like a single, well done industry grf, railtype grf
18:20<Wolf01>Eh, maybe you want american trams and european trucks
18:20<andythenorth>I think it’s worth trying to keep the idea of multiple NRT grfs
18:20<andythenorth>if authors stuck to a limited set of labels....
18:20<Wolf01>Or a grf only provide pax trams and you want heavy equipments too
18:20<andythenorth>it would be fine
18:21<andythenorth>if we mostly had ROAD, ELRD, RAIL, ELRL
18:21<Wolf01>We mostly have ROAD, ELRL :P
18:21<andythenorth>and not ‘35mph trams with metre gauge, 120 pound rail and 600v DC electrification returning to ground’
18:23*andythenorth wonders about forcing every type to specificy whether building it causes ELRD / ELRL upgrade
18:23<andythenorth>and forcing every grf to specify whether it provides ELRD/ELRL
18:24<andythenorth>‘label if unpowered tile'
18:24<andythenorth>‘label if powered tile'
18:24<andythenorth>dual labels for every type?
18:25<Wolf01>This should open possibilities like "you can't upgrade RAIL to ELRL, xxRD can't have catenary"
18:25<andythenorth>I like the dual labels idea
18:26<andythenorth>it supports also the idea of types that don’t care about powered
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18:26<andythenorth>e.g. MUDR or something for mud roads
18:26<andythenorth>could stay as MUDR either way
18:26<andythenorth>so I add ELRL to mud, flipping the powered bit for the tile
18:26<andythenorth>and it stays as MUDR also
18:27<andythenorth>I add ELRL to ROAD, flipping the powered bit for the tile
18:27<andythenorth>and now we have ELRD
18:27<andythenorth>but the type that already existed defines it’s own label
18:27<andythenorth>so arbitrary grfs can combine safely
18:28<Wolf01>You know that in 3 hours I only made a test suite for a single class with 2 assertions? ^_^
18:28<andythenorth>:P
18:28<andythenorth>does the test actually work?
18:28<andythenorth>many tests don’t, in my limited experience
18:28<andythenorth>I try breaking the app to test the tests
18:29<Wolf01>I should exercise on test driven development, and I usually make only simple tests as I'm lazy
18:30<andythenorth>if I downgrade ELRL to RAIL, does that unflip the powered bit for the tile?
18:30<Wolf01>BTW, back on topic, you are elaborating this <Wolf01> (x) move the catenary to it's own bit into the tile (your first idea), add a tool to place catenary, newgrfs define catenary aspect (no separation between tramway and road ones|3 definitions: tram alone, road alone, road+tram|road = road+tram, tram alone)
18:30<andythenorth>breaking the ELRD?
18:30<andythenorth>I am forcing the idea that every type has to accomodate a catenary bit
18:31<andythenorth>but it would be built implicitly, no need for an extra tool (and extra UI and crap)
18:31<andythenorth>dual labels for every type
18:31<andythenorth>I guess it’s OR and NAND
18:31<andythenorth>either type can flip the bit on
18:31<andythenorth>both types have to downgrade to flip the bit off
18:32<Wolf01>You should have 3 possibilities: has catenary bit but no catenary (eg. MUDR) | has catenary bit and provides catenary (ROAD, ELRD) | doesn't allow catenary
18:32<Wolf01>This because reasons
18:33<andythenorth>‘incompatible with types that flip the powered bit on’
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18:33<Wolf01>Exactly
18:33<Wolf01><andythenorth> both types have to downgrade to flip the bit off <- Agreed
18:33<andythenorth>frosch will explain to me tomorrow why this is stupid :D
18:34<Wolf01>But how do you tell the player?
18:34<andythenorth>player will figure it out
18:34<andythenorth>also it doesn’t usually matter
18:34<andythenorth>ROAD vehicles can route on ELRD
18:34<Wolf01>You downgrade ELRL to RAIL but ELRD stays, you'll drive the player mad
18:34<andythenorth>it’s better than breaking routes
18:35<andythenorth>I can see the purpose of a separate catenary tool
18:35<andythenorth>but eh
18:35<Wolf01>But it's the same as now "I added ELRL to ROAD, nor I removed ELRL but the catenary is still there"
18:35<andythenorth>yes
18:35<andythenorth>I think that’s acceptable
18:35<Wolf01>s/removed/downgraded
18:36<andythenorth>confusing, but acceptable
18:36<Wolf01>It's the same as now
18:36<Wolf01>Just a bit more automatic
18:36<andythenorth>except backwards :)
18:36<andythenorth>it would try too hard to not have broken routes, opposite of current situation
18:37<andythenorth>a catenary tool would assume unified catenary?
18:37<Wolf01>No
18:37<andythenorth>hmm
18:37<Wolf01>A catenary tool would assume that the grf knows and tell the game how to upgrade a label
18:37<andythenorth>I don’t hate it, I just think it’s more complexity
18:38<Wolf01>I mean, you have RAIL, use catenary tool over it and you'll get ELRL, fine, thanks, simple
18:38<andythenorth>but without unifying catenary, we’re back at where we started :)
18:38<Wolf01>You have XYRL, you use catenary over it... which other label becomes?
18:39<andythenorth>we’re stuck with player unable to detect why vehicles aren’t routing
18:39<andythenorth>and only a few 8bpp pixels to show it
18:39<Wolf01>Or, you unify the catenary...
18:39<Wolf01>Which means you can't use the catenary to fake subways
18:39<Wolf01>Which is a BAD use case anyway
18:39<andythenorth>so many kittens died :P
18:40<andythenorth>fuck all these proposed catenary hacks, seriously
18:40<andythenorth>‘but NRT must allow boatloads of shit’
18:40<andythenorth>is making it not get shipped
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18:42<andythenorth>catenary is not a good way to do ropeways, ski-lifts, subways, or eye candy
18:43<andythenorth>if we want stuff like this https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/aerial-ropeway-westport-new-zealand-circa-buckets-carry-coal-down-to-railway-terminal-stockton-coal-mine-west-42428732.jpg
18:43<andythenorth>then we should have a new transport type for it
18:43<Wolf01>No, it's not, but until we'll provide authors a good way, they will hack things into it the wrong way
18:43<andythenorth>and subways are always stupid
18:43<andythenorth>hax is hax
18:43<andythenorth>spec doesn’t need to be written around the hax
18:43<andythenorth>then they’re not hax, they’re spec :P
18:44*andythenorth votes unified catenary tool and unified appearance
18:44<andythenorth>if it was drawn via a switch chain, author could swap sprites depending on types on the tile
18:45<andythenorth>so actually multiple types could be drawn, just have to be combined in one sprite
18:45<Wolf01>Yes
18:46<Wolf01>Up to 14*14 combinations
18:46<Wolf01>Maybe even 15x15 if you override ROAD and RAIL
18:46<andythenorth>have fun drawing that :)
18:47<Wolf01>Not my problem
18:47<andythenorth>the work might put them off eh?
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18:47<Wolf01>Server got annoyed?
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20:22<supermop>well flight is delayed 3.5 hours
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20:28<Wolf01>'night
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---Logclosed Sat Aug 05 00:00:40 2017