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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-08-06

---Logopened Sun Aug 06 00:00:42 2017
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02:35<andythenorth>o/
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04:55<Eddi|zuHause>uhm... what? https://www.paradoxplaza.com/404
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05:19<Wolf01>o/
05:22<Wolf01>Another update to space engineers... almost 3 every week... too bad I didn't learn how to play it and wreck everything each time
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05:39<Eddi|zuHause>hm... deciding whether to use metro overhaul mod... seems a bit dicey from the descriptions/comments
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07:20<@Alberth>o/
07:25<Wolf01>o/
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07:46<andythenorth>eh
07:47<andythenorth>the theory of making trains all same length
07:47<andythenorth>is only good in theory
07:48<andythenorth>:|
07:49<andythenorth>it makes it hard to create difference between generations
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08:14<Wolf01>Make different liveries
08:15<Wolf01>Did you ship the depot patch?
08:21<andythenorth>:|
08:21<andythenorth>we need help
08:30<Wolf01>I need serious help
08:36*andythenorth crashed ottd
08:36<andythenorth>there’s a lot of that
08:41<andythenorth>ach I really just need to use 10/8
08:41<andythenorth>or change this engine
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09:00<andythenorth>crashed ottd, again :P
09:02<LordAro>andythenorth: you should file a bug report
09:03<andythenorth>with all the others in FS? o_O
09:03<LordAro>;)
09:03<andythenorth>“Invalid report: newgrfs changed”
09:03<andythenorth>I don’t know why changing the grfid of a running newgrf causes ottd to crash :(
09:03<andythenorth>seems brittle
09:04<LordAro>imo, ottd shouldn't ever be able to crash
09:04<LordAro>in a perfect world
09:04<LordAro>might get to say "your game is now unusable, gj"
09:04<LordAro>but not crash
09:09<andythenorth>it does give me an assert message :)
09:09<andythenorth>except when it locks hard
09:10<LordAro>hehe
09:10<Flygon>It's not a crash until the CPU locks up and gives you an illegal instruction warning.
09:10<LordAro>see what it does when NDEBUG is defined :p
09:10<Flygon>Somehow. On a 2017-era CPU.
09:10<LordAro>they do happen from time to time, aiui
09:11<LordAro>https://svnweb.freebsd.org/base?view=revision&revision=321899 like this tangentally related thing
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09:24<Flygon>Yowch.
09:54<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8522/IH-2.png
09:54<andythenorth>is it better?
09:54*andythenorth isn’t sure
09:59<andythenorth>4/8 is very short for an engine
10:03<@Alberth>useful for re-arranging wagons at a station :)
10:04<@Alberth>also, depends on its power :)
10:04<@Alberth>or rather, TE, I guess
10:04<andythenorth>it’s unrealistically powerful and can go 85mph :P
10:05<andythenorth>the new sprite is remarkably similar to this http://silverfoxmodels.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/class07_blue.jpg
10:05<andythenorth>but the stats are for this ;) http://www.anticsonline.co.uk/l.aspx?k=2646063
10:06<andythenorth>I would rather it was 6/8 long, but I can’t figure out a scheme where that works
10:09<andythenorth>with a 6/8 caboose and 4/8 wagons it would work
10:10<andythenorth>8/8 wagons not so much
10:11<andythenorth>but 8/8 wagons don’t make an integer length with 4/8 wagon either :P
10:11<andythenorth>so what’s lost? o_O
10:15<andythenorth>is it this? https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/353571-a-foolish-consistency-is-the-hobgoblin-of-little-minds-adored
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10:27<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8523/IH-2-alt.png
10:30<@Alberth>as I said before, I don't mind different length vehicles :)
10:30<@Alberth>consistency is a way to avoid having to consider something
10:31<@Alberth>which works great in my experience with stuff you really don't want to think about
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10:31<@Alberth>creating consistency does need a very good mind, it's very easy to mess up :)
10:32<@Alberth>ie, a code style is just for avoiding thinking about code layout and/or useless discussions about it
10:33<@Alberth>it also means you can worry about other things instead :p
10:36<andythenorth>because IH is ‘slightly realistic’
10:37<andythenorth>it creates a new game called ‘search google for weird prototypes'
10:37<andythenorth>on balance it might be better to not always have integer lengths :P
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10:40<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8524/IH-2-alt-2.png
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10:59<@Alberth>haha :)
10:59<@Alberth>just make a set of cabeese to get to a full tile :p
11:00<andythenorth>oh :|
11:00<andythenorth>that was actually my serious plan :P
11:01<@Alberth>make all dual-heads, with the matching caboose, and you're done?
11:01<andythenorth>frosch suggested that :P
11:01<@Alberth>V too, iirc
11:01<andythenorth>something weird about it
11:01<andythenorth>oh, double-heading
11:01<andythenorth>it breaks for multiple engines on one train
11:01<@Alberth>hmm, good point
11:03<andythenorth>I might have to do some 10/8 engines too :P
11:04<andythenorth>forcing the big engines to 8/8 or 12/8 is weird
11:04<andythenorth>makes visual progression hard across generations
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11:05<andythenorth>how many restaurant cars on a pax train? o_O
11:10<andythenorth>ha ha, even this http://www.goldenagemodels.net/images/lner-rebuilt-observation-car-ipad-banner.jpg
11:10<andythenorth>6/8 IRL :P
11:10<andythenorth>10/8 engine, 8/8 coaches, 6/8 observation car :P
11:17<Wolf01>Mmmh
11:17<@Alberth>what would it observe?
11:24<andythenorth>back of the train :)
11:25<andythenorth>observes pixels :P
11:27<andythenorth>wondering if I can provide a payment bonus if it’s in the train
11:27<andythenorth>probly
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11:50<Eddi|zuHause>... i think i fell into a "trying to mod this game"-metagame bottomless pit that ultimately will destroy the game for me
11:50<Eddi|zuHause>like with KSP
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11:52<andythenorth>is it TF?
11:52<Eddi|zuHause>no, cities skylines
11:54<andythenorth>“the finest city builder in over a decade.”
11:54*andythenorth doesn’t play games :)
11:54<Eddi|zuHause>it's certainly less crashy than sim city 4
11:55<Eddi|zuHause>and there was no sim city 5
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11:56<Eddi|zuHause>where does steam put workshop content?
12:09<Wolf01>Usually in steamapps\workshop
12:09<Wolf01>You need to get the app id to find what you want
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12:33*andythenorth researches trains :P
12:35<andythenorth>railway post office coach
12:38<Eddi|zuHause>should i restart the game with vanilla?
12:38<andythenorth>yup
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12:42<andythenorth>should I keep the combine coach?
12:42<andythenorth>(carries pax and mail simultaneously - fake articulated)
12:49*andythenorth has ideas
12:52<@Alberth>combine was a fun idea, but there are too many passengers :)
12:53<@Alberth>ie ratio mail / passengers is way off )
13:00<andythenorth>if I make it actually articulated
13:00<andythenorth>(which is actually realism)
13:01<andythenorth>a 6/8 small engine can go with a 10/8 combine coach for a nice 1 tile train
13:01<andythenorth>and no hidden vehicle stuff needed
13:01<andythenorth>what ratio would be better?
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13:17<andythenorth>payment bonus for mail if a post-office coach is in the train? o_O
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13:19<andythenorth>hmm, maybe not
13:47<@Alberth>not sure about the ratio, but run aan passenger service between two big towns :)
13:47<@Alberth>maybe the passenger / mail ratio is different for small houses vs eg sky scrapers?
13:48<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i moved my water pumps from above the dam to below the dam (because they apparently drive down the effectiveness of the dam), but that flooded some houses next to the dam
13:48<@Alberth>I usually serve small towns
13:49<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: so post office coach is effectively a dining car for mail?
13:50<Eddi|zuHause>dam output went from 400 to 600kW
13:50<Eddi|zuHause>MW
13:54<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: could be :P
13:54<andythenorth>but I think it would need mail capacity, whereas dining car…wouldn’t
13:54<andythenorth>dunno why
13:54<andythenorth>and if it has capacity AND payment bonus, you’d always use it
13:59<@Alberth>payment bonus has no impact on income whatsoever :p You get more than you can spend anyway
13:59<andythenorth>restaurant car seems neat for some reason
13:59<andythenorth>dunno why
14:01<andythenorth>this depot lines patch is really useful :D
14:04<V453000>depot lines?
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14:07<andythenorth>V453000: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8525/TL-guide-3.png
14:08<V453000>that's a nice idea but assumes that the graphics have the right sizes XD
14:09<Eddi|zuHause>maybe i should have looked up what the space elevator does before building it?
14:10<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: Something like the dome arcologies in SC2k?
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: it basically spews out hundreds of tourists that need to be transported somewhere
14:11<FLHerne>Oh, ok
14:11<FLHerne>It actually has real transport logistics?
14:12<FLHerne>I remember SC2k simulating traffic very badly
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: i did build arcologies in sc2k but i have no clue what they actually did, besides hold 10k-ish people
14:12<FLHerne>After a while, they blasted into space and set fire to things
14:12<FLHerne>(only the futuristic dome ones)
14:12<FLHerne>Not really sure why
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: well, cities skylines is basically a spinoff of cities in motion, so it does have transport stuff builtin :p
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>i have not actually played cities in motion, though
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: uhm, i've never seen that happen
14:16<FLHerne>I used to build big lines of them just too see it happen, it was fairly cool
14:18<FLHerne>Video, which is less fun than I remembered https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6RT5ooUW-g
14:18<FLHerne>Possibly things are more fun when you're 10
14:18<andythenorth>quak also
14:19<frosch123>moi
14:19<frosch123>so much fs spam
14:24<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: sc2k is not a game that has aged well
14:26<frosch123>i played sc1 and then tried sc2k where i always failed
14:26<V453000>STARCRAFT 2000 ?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!? GG
14:26<frosch123>some years ago someone told me that you can just build everything and fund at 5% and everyone will be happy
14:26<Eddi|zuHause>i failed sc1 much more than 2k
14:27<frosch123>i tried and sc2k turned out easy as f
14:27<frosch123>maybe i would have been better at sc2k if i did not know sc1 :p
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, don't put taxes to 20% :p
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>and don't ever change the road funding setting
14:28<frosch123>V453000: sc:r has more pixels, but still no slugs
14:28<frosch123>or do reavers count as slugs?
14:28<V453000>they do actually
14:29<FLHerne>Eh, the way SC2k's balanced has some upsides
14:29<frosch123>V453000: isn't a reaver more like a caterpillar?
14:29<V453000>IZ SLUG
14:29<FLHerne>You can balance it and sandbox your perfect city with no stress
14:29<V453000>QUESTION DON'T
14:30<FLHerne>Or deliberately unbalance it, and play around with crisis management
14:30<FLHerne>(perhaps I wouldn't agree now, it's been years since I last played)
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14:37<andythenorth>frosch123: do you get notifications about FS changes?
14:37<frosch123>those where i added a comment in 2009
14:37*andythenorth went on a spree :P
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: well the cities skylines monuments are a bit silly in that they reqiure you to mismanage in particular ways, like have high crime rate, or negative money, or lots of abandoned buildings
14:38<andythenorth>I know FS is ultimately a silly game, but it would be nice if it was < 500
14:38<andythenorth>and if 400 of those were people asking for subways, that’s probably fine :P
14:39<frosch123>most recents tasks have fixed by adf attached
14:39<frosch123>i just don't know how to pressure him into committing them himself :p
14:46<andythenorth>I was surprised how many there were
14:46<andythenorth>quite a lot of patches in FS
14:47<frosch123>bug fixes or features?
14:47<andythenorth>possible fixes, small features
14:47<andythenorth>‘lot’ = handful
14:47<frosch123>i fail to keep up with the fixes
14:47<frosch123>the features are usually meh
14:48<frosch123>like not even using indenting
14:49<frosch123>there more interesting features you will find in juanjo pp etc
14:49<andythenorth>I could go through FS again and find them :P
14:49<frosch123>juanjo stuff you find via forums, or via github meanwhile
14:49<andythenorth>other than applying them myself, I have no way to help review them though :P
14:50<andythenorth>maybe it should be pull requests on github
14:50<andythenorth>dunno
14:51<frosch123>more spam from more platforms? :p
14:53<andythenorth>that too
14:54<andythenorth>https://bugs.openttd.org/task/983 :D
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14:56<andythenorth>this would be somewhat useful https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6328
14:56*andythenorth hasn’t tested it though
14:57<Eddi|zuHause>tram-avenues need some way to get passenger underpasses :/
15:04<V453000>hand painting might be nice but fuck, is it a lot of work.
15:04<andythenorth>isn’t it
15:04<andythenorth>I would close this https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5797
15:04<andythenorth>take the same approach to OS X that apple takes: old versions are dead
15:08<frosch123>i thought we only support the old ones :p
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15:09<andythenorth>I am on 10.12 Sierra :P
15:10<andythenorth>and it builds clean out of the box (after getting deps)
15:10<Eddi|zuHause>depends on what you call "support", i guess?
15:10<andythenorth>Mavericks is 10.9
15:10<andythenorth>dead
15:11<andythenorth>what I’m unsure of is whether all the patches Michi wanted tested were committed
15:11<andythenorth>some were
15:16<V453000>btw andythenorth I think I will just finish the painting nutjob and after I will do the trains
15:16<andythenorth>yay
15:16<V453000>fuck any other ideas for now
15:16<andythenorth>when will you do the ships? o_O
15:16<V453000>by the painting it gets to kind of stable state
15:16<V453000>idk "P
15:16<V453000>:P
15:16<V453000>don't plan ships soon but maybe
15:19<V453000>can just take some trains and scale them up
15:19<V453000>done
15:19<V453000>that actually sounds awfully close to what I might do XD
15:22<V453000>maybe that's the RIGHT way to do ships
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15:45<andythenorth>I can’t repro this https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6216
15:45<andythenorth>if it was easily triggered, it would be reported a lot more eh?
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15:53<andythenorth>FS bugs is not a rewarding game :P
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16:02<andythenorth>also bed time
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---Logclosed Mon Aug 07 00:00:43 2017