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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-08-08

---Logopened Tue Aug 08 00:00:45 2017
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05:39<Wolf01>o/
05:40<@Alberth>o/
05:43<crem>\o
05:56<Wolf01>https://youtu.be/o7dyB2PcUN4 mmm I didn't notice it worked the first time I've seen it
06:03<@Alberth>:)
06:11<@peter1138>what works?
06:11<Wolf01>It's not static
06:11<@Alberth>the model, I assumed
06:11<@peter1138>ah
06:11<@peter1138>well the link works :p
06:11<@Alberth>:D
06:12<@peter1138>that's neat
06:12<@peter1138>is it in ottd yet
06:13<@peter1138>i had the ship going up and down but not the water
06:14<Wolf01>I can't understand why it wasn't implemented like TTDP the first time (which is like your patch)
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06:23<@peter1138>hmm, went a bit overkill on my router
06:23<@peter1138>256MB memory, 216MB free
06:23<@peter1138>880Mhz quad core CPU, 0% used
06:24<@peter1138>ooh got it up to 1%
06:24<Wolf01>Ahah
06:25<@Alberth>rounding error :p
06:28<Wolf01>Fuck youtube... I started by watching lego and now I'm again into scientific experiments
06:29<FLHerne>You'd better install an OTTD server on it
06:33<SpComb>peter1138: you must not have a 1gbps connection with 1m state entries
06:34<@peter1138>nope, only 80m/20m
06:34<@peter1138>although the router is gbit
06:35<__ln__>can it handle a gbit of traffic?
06:36<@peter1138>depends on the packet size
06:37<@peter1138>yes, if it's "normal packets"
06:37<@peter1138>unlikely if it's a flood of tiny packets
06:38<__ln__>does it do routing with CPU or some specialized hardware?
06:39<SpComb>sounds almost like an ER-X
06:41<SpComb>sounds exactly like an ER-X, although it's dual-core with four threads
06:41<@peter1138>think it is actually
06:41<@peter1138>it's a mikrotik though
06:42<SpComb>probably very similar hardware, just different OS/software
06:43<@peter1138>yeah same cpu
06:45<@peter1138>thinking about getting a unifi ap
06:46<@peter1138>currently just using the old adsl modem/router/ap just for wireless duty
06:48<__ln__>i have an ER Lite
07:15<@peter1138>but yeah, because they all respect the GPL just as much as say cisco, netgear, asus, d-link etc... not really able to put ottd on it
07:18<Wolf01>Another topic about changing grfs in scenarios :|
07:20<Wolf01>I vote to make 2 OTTD versions, one for public without any development function and one for grf development already enabled, which is available and signed only for grf developers and closed source, so they wouldn't be able to give it away
07:28<Alkel_U3>want a router that will run OpenTTD? Get a Turris
07:30<Alkel_U3>although it's pretty costly for a router :-)
07:34<@peter1138>personally i'd just stick ottd on a computer behind the router :p
07:36<Alkel_U3>that seems to be the most pragmatic solution but not the techno-coolest one :D
07:37<Alkel_U3>well, I'd even say the most practical these days is a rented virtual server
07:37<Alkel_U3>especially for such resource-light game as openttd
07:37<@peter1138>tempted to get an hp microserver but the upgrade to xeon is steep
07:39<SpComb>I upgraded to a chieftec 4U rackmount ATX chassis at home... otherwise great, but the separate HDD hotswap chassis (also sold by chieftec) has an horrible built-in nonstandard 80mm fan that you can't swap out without voiding the warranty
07:39<crem>Few years ago I bought something like that https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Fanless-Industrial-Mini-PC-i7-4510U-Barebone-i7-Mini-PC-Windows-10-ITX-Computer-8GB-RAM/32608865952.html from aliexpress. Works suprisingly well to host various game servers, but may be overkill.
07:40<Arveen>am i the only person who has a 42" inch rack in his basement ?
07:40<SpComb>but once I find a 20mm deep 80mm fan and void the warranty on that, then it should all work out as a decently quiet rackmount machine
07:41<Arveen>err 42HE
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07:41<SpComb>I have a wheeled 18U cabinet with a glass door in the corner of the living room
07:41<crem>I do have a rack! but it's empty. I'd like to have 0 noise PC for something which is always on.
07:41<@peter1138>basements not common here :(
07:41<crem>And all servers are too noisy.
07:41<SpComb>silent + rackmount is just diffcult/expensive
07:42<Arveen>yeah, thats why its in my basement heh
07:42<@peter1138>rack mount a pi
07:42<@peter1138>if it makes a lot of noise, it's probably power hungry too
07:42<SpComb>does someone sell a rackmount rpi case
07:42<@peter1138>yes but it's shit
07:42<crem>I also tried fit-pc2, but it was too slow for minecraft server.
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07:43<Arveen>i think there are pi rackmout kits, but its like an 16 slot 2HE case
07:43<crem>rpi is very far from being usable for game servers.
07:43<SpComb>I want something with decent storage... also considered a NUC + external USB3 HDD chassis
07:43<@peter1138>it's ok for a normal size ottd game
07:43<@peter1138>http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fujitsu-Primergy-RX900-S2-8-x-Intel-XEON-E7-8870-10-Core-2048GB-Ram-Rack-Server/201651022751
07:43<@peter1138>something like that should do
07:43<SpComb>not silent
07:44<Arveen>that's a nice machine
07:44<@peter1138>nor cheap
07:45<@peter1138>dell t20 with xeon were cheap for a while, wish i'd got one
07:45<Arveen>i got all my stuff from work when it got replaced at the data center
07:45<Arveen>so it was rather cheap
07:46<LordAro>Arveen: noice
07:47<Arveen>I am actually trying to get rid of 2 DELL R510 servers which I replaced recently at home
07:47<Arveen>so if anyone wants to buy, they are up for sale
07:48<LordAro>Arveen: specs?
07:49<LordAro>and perhaps more importantly, where from? :p
07:50<Arveen>Germany, near Frankfurt Airport
07:50<LordAro>peter1138: nah, one of these https://www.supermicro.com/products/system/4U/6048/SSG-6048R-E1CR90L.cfm
07:51<Arveen>2x Xeon L5630 CPUs, i got loads of RAM and SAS/SATA disks laying around so i can put in whatever is needed/wanted
07:52<LordAro>interesting
07:53<LordAro>i might know some people who would be interested, if you can deliver to north england
07:53<LordAro>what sort of price are we talking?
07:55<Arveen>well depends on the actual config but i would say an reasonable to cheap pricing
07:57<LordAro>depends what you think of as reasonable to cheap :p
08:00<Arveen>hehe
08:00<Arveen>you want to use this equipment for an home lab or for business ?
08:01<LordAro>this would be a student society
08:01<LordAro>so kind of inbetween :)
08:04<@Alberth>"business" :p
08:05<@Alberth>gaming is a core value :)
08:05<LordAro>haha
08:08<Arveen>well, usually I sell my home lab stuff for current EBay price minus 10% to 20%
08:10<Arveen>im have no idea how expensive the shipping would be
08:11<Arveen>DHL says 45 eur. caugh caugh
08:11<Arveen>you should book a trip to Germany to pick it up - might be cheaper :P
08:12<__ln__>45€ sounds cheap to me for international shipping
08:13<LordAro>Arveen: hehe
08:13<Arveen>hmm says max. 120 x 60 x 60cm) - that won't fit
08:14<LordAro>ok, ebay prices look like they'd be a bit on the steep side, but i'll relay info anyway and let you know
08:14<Arveen>aight, cool
08:15<Arveen>right now i am in no rush to sell them. got enough space in my rack :D
08:18<LordAro>:D
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10:06<eekee>(12:15:04) peter1138: but yeah, because they all respect the GPL just as much as say cisco, netgear, asus, d-link etc... not really able to put ottd on it
10:07<eekee>peter1138: what do you mean? i thought the gpl only constrained distribution, not what you do with it yourself
10:09<@peter1138>yeah, they don't provide the sources that they should
10:10<eekee>oh you can't compile ottd to run on it?
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10:11<eekee>i hate when that happens
10:13<eekee>brb, going to computer shop
10:19<@peter1138>probably could compile it
10:19<@peter1138>but it's basically an embedded system. 16MB flash storag.e..
10:20<@peter1138>(i was surprised it was so low, but it seems to work :p)
11:20<eekee>ah aye :)
11:21<eekee>autosave could create problems with that little storage
11:21<eekee>i think
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11:30<@peter1138>it's not really a problem, it can use microsd or usb storage
11:34<eekee>oh right, cool
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13:08<andythenorth>o/
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13:10<andythenorth>quak also
13:12<@Alberth>o/
13:14<frosch123>moi
13:15<andythenorth>now that I figured out the schema and the lengths and everything, do I actually have to draw the grf? o_O
13:15<andythenorth>or can I just project manage?
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13:24<@Alberth>"and everything" didn't include pixels I guess?
13:26<andythenorth>I have drawn them in my mind
13:27<andythenorth>the filesystem is just out of compliance
13:31<@Alberth>:D
13:31<@Alberth>brain-to-fs is non-functional, apparently
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13:42<frosch123>afaik there is no method to remove stalled nfs mounts
13:42<frosch123>we need to reboot andy
13:43<LordAro>umount -f[f] will sometimes work
13:46<andythenorth>my current code assumes only one of each vehicle type per generation
13:46<andythenorth>but I need 2 cabooses (long and short)
13:46<andythenorth>also I have this crazy articulated code
13:46<andythenorth>3 parts to every vehicle
13:46<andythenorth>I should refactor that :P
13:46<andythenorth>V453000 is it faster?
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13:57<LordAro>frosch123: Alberth: do you recall the last assessment of my std::sort patch? https://gist.github.com/LordAro/760063761dc46bacb0c37576c296361a
13:58<frosch123>s/CDECL // ?
13:58<LordAro>ah yeah
13:59<LordAro>globally, or just for these functions?
13:59<frosch123>for these, no idea who else uses them
13:59<supermop_>andythenorth: are you drawing pivoting bogies?
13:59<andythenorth>errr
13:59<andythenorth>no
14:00<LordAro>frosch123: looks like the vast majority are the sorter functions
14:01<frosch123>iirc last time there were issues with some methods returning true for == when reverse-sorting
14:01<LordAro>i believe i fixed that
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14:03<frosch123>line 2214 does not compile
14:03<frosch123>p ->p2
14:03<supermop_>why 3 articulated parts then?
14:04<andythenorth>> 8/8 vehicle sprites
14:04<frosch123>LordAro: ModeSorter is not stable sort
14:05<frosch123>actually, it likely causes infinite loops
14:05<frosch123>(100,200) < (200, 100) < (100, 200)
14:05<LordAro>i wondered whether i broke that one
14:06<LordAro>give sec
14:07<frosch123>TownRatingSorter likely has the same issue
14:08<frosch123>multiplying with +-1 is a XOR, no AND or OR
14:09<frosch123>anyway, i am confused why some methods have flags to inverse sorting, while other do not
14:09<frosch123>is ottd that inconsistent :p
14:10<LordAro>¯\_(ツ)_/¯
14:10<@Alberth>likely :p
14:10<frosch123>LordAro: sorry, BinNegator is completely broken
14:10<frosch123>std::sort expects operator<, not operator <=
14:11<@Alberth>previous review was at jul 9 http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/stdsort.diff.patch
14:11<@Alberth>sounds familiar :p
14:11<LordAro>haha, yes
14:17<LordAro>oh, have a completely unrelated thing that i made https://gist.github.com/LordAro/60505eb8e5f121c3fac8a4b8c583c573
14:21<frosch123>is that an entry for template horror contest?
14:22<LordAro>it could be
14:23<frosch123>you can improve it with some #define ☢ template
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15:05<V453000>heyo humenz
15:05<frosch123>hi slug
15:06<V453000>omg identified
15:08<andythenorth>isn’t it
15:08<andythenorth>but are you faster now?
15:09<frosch123>depends on the colour of the floor
15:12<V453000>https://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=199216 https://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=199217
15:12<V453000>gg
15:12<V453000>next
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15:32<LordAro>frosch123: Alberth: gist updated
15:33<LordAro>i gave up and just rewrote TownRatingSorter, and replaced the BinNegator thing with a std::reverse :)
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15:36<LordAro>https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/zkwh89ks(v=vs.100).aspx MS's own documentation implies CDECL is the default anyway
15:37<frosch123>it's from 32bpp age, so dead in a few years?
15:37<LordAro>heh
15:37<frosch123>or did people invent alternative call convertions for x64 yet?
15:40<LordAro>well, MS did
15:40<frosch123>oh, indeed
15:40<LordAro>don't think anyone else did
15:41<frosch123>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86_calling_conventions#x86-64_calling_conventions <- two again :)
15:41<LordAro>yup, CDECL has been in stdafx.h since r1
15:41<LordAro>so almost certainly redundant
15:48<V453000>well houston we have a fucking problem
15:49<frosch123>mars inhabitable for slugs?
15:49<V453000>I'm still not quite convinced that this is the wrong approach https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8529/test.png
15:50<frosch123>insane contrast
15:50<LordAro>ha, lol
15:50<V453000>well not everything would stay the same
15:51<LordAro>chromium does not let me view https openttdcoop.org
15:51<LordAro>because of the revoked startcom cert
15:51<V453000>try with http
15:51<LordAro>just straight up doesn't let me, no "let me in anyway" button at all
15:51<LordAro>V453000: aye, that works
15:52<andythenorth>V453000: what’s wrong with that approach?
15:52<andythenorth>it looks like the aftermath of a forest fire, but otherwise...
15:52<V453000>which one andy?
15:52<V453000>ah the black one
15:52<andythenorth>the black one
15:52<V453000>well I still really like the concept of having (very) desaturated background to focus things with colour in the picture
15:53<andythenorth>what colour would water be?
15:53<V453000>BLACK AS FUCK
15:53<andythenorth>test it with FIRS
15:53<andythenorth>better industries :P
15:53<V453000>I ran away from the concept because snow was a problem but the ground was rather neutral gray or whiteish
15:53<V453000>here it's not a problem
15:53<andythenorth>snow is over-rated
15:53<andythenorth>what colour would desert be?
15:54<V453000>probably lavaish
15:54<Arveen>potatoes
15:54<V453000>could even be orangey
15:54<V453000>'s fine
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15:55<V453000>the thing is I am planning to do this eventually anyway
15:55<V453000>and now when I kind of have most of the pieces, I started playing with colours again
15:55<LordAro>Arveen: boil em, mash em, stick em in a stew?
15:55<andythenorth>will my black ships show up on your black see? :P
15:55<andythenorth>sea *
15:55<Arveen>would it be possible to put like an RGB selector in the grf options for the tile color ?
15:55<V453000>probably :)
15:56<frosch123>i think the contrast is too harsh
15:56<V453000>frosch the contrast will change
15:56<V453000>the tracks are too bright
15:56<frosch123>ok :)
15:57<andythenorth>it’s a look
15:57<frosch123>well, plain black landscape is likely better than plain white
15:57<andythenorth>there’s not much gained from replicating SF graphics, unless you’re me
15:58<V453000>well, green grass is certainly more consistent with other grfs
15:58<V453000>but I don't really like it that much
15:58<V453000>sure I can desaturate grass but meh
15:59<V453000>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8530/test2.png
16:00<V453000>trees might actually stay green
16:01<frosch123>did you try brown?
16:02<frosch123>https://www.sketchuptextureclub.com/public/texture/0022-dry-grass-texture-seamless.jpg <- that kind of brown
16:03<V453000>brown is an option but I would prefer to reserve that colour for other things
16:03<V453000>like foundations and bulldozed shit
16:03<andythenorth>try violety
16:03<frosch123>you could make bulldozes and rough land black
16:03<andythenorth>like my mini-map colour
16:03<Alkel_U3>sorry to interrupt with non-tycoon matters but I've just been informed there's a game I consider good - namely Pony Island - for free on Humble Bundle and I can't just stand idly by seeing people not go get it https://www.humblebundle.com/micro-jumbo-bundle
16:03<frosch123>foundations can be grey
16:04<frosch123>Alkel_U3: don't free the devel
16:05<andythenorth>V453000: what was wrong with greige? o_O
16:05<Alkel_U3>frosch123: :D
16:05<andythenorth>greige is awesome and has contrast to white
16:05<frosch123>devil? i guess it's the same
16:05<andythenorth>and light blue
16:05<V453000>greige was too netural
16:05<V453000>neutral
16:05<Alkel_U3>pun not intended? Because it was
16:08<andythenorth>V453000: I sometimes use this https://coolors.co/
16:09<andythenorth>first roll of the dice: tropic https://coolors.co/423e37-e3b23c-edebd7-a39594-6e675f
16:09<V453000>haha
16:09<andythenorth>temperate-with-snow :P https://coolors.co/064789-427aa1-ebf2fa-679436-a5be00
16:09<andythenorth>such? https://coolors.co/395e66-387d7a-32936f-26a96c-2bc016
16:10<andythenorth>anyway, choose happy colours
16:11<andythenorth>SF made all of TTD happy tones
16:11<andythenorth>whereas lomo… :(
16:11<andythenorth>tropic again? https://coolors.co/ebf5df-bad4aa-d4d4aa-edb458-e8871e
16:12<V453000>can't say I am thrilled about happy colours on the background
16:12<frosch123>don't make it blue :)
16:12<frosch123>blue is one of the most boring colors
16:15<V453000>I'll give it some more thought
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---Logclosed Tue Aug 08 16:25:12 2017
---Logopened Tue Aug 08 16:48:10 2017
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18:41<Wolf01>Nice, I need to update the projects to vs141
18:42<Wolf01>Shit, I installed VS in italian
19:05<Eddi|zuHause>i never understood why vs didn't "fix" the versioning scheme to use the year... everybody else seems to do that
19:06<Wolf01>It uses the version
19:08<Eddi|zuHause>the version uses the version. how tautological
19:09<Wolf01>What does change between 2015/2017 and 140/141?
19:09<Eddi|zuHause>how should i know?
19:10<Wolf01>No, I mean is 2017 preferable to 141?
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19:10<LordAro>well one is the version that everyone calls it by
19:11<LordAro>and another is the internal version number
19:11<Wolf01>I would like if 141 can work with 140 projects without trying to update them
19:11<Eddi|zuHause>the problem is using two numbers that have nothing to do with each other. how does one remember that 14.0 is 2015?
19:12<Wolf01>Who cares?
19:12<Wolf01>They are 2 numbers
19:12<Eddi|zuHause>they are two DIFFERENT numbers that refer to the SAME thing
19:12<Wolf01>It doesn't fix the problem that every new version wants to update the project files
19:12<Eddi|zuHause>it's inconsistent
19:13<Eddi|zuHause>inconsistent things make conversations needlessly difficult
19:14<Eddi|zuHause>and who cares about updating? you shouldn't go back and forth between versions?
19:14<Wolf01>Eddi, is like Creator Update which is 1703, in many places you find 1703 instead of CU
19:14<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: and mountain lion is 10.what?
19:14<Wolf01>I care about updating when I open OTTD with a new version and then I have a bunch of files which it wants to commit
19:16<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: a versioning scheme that is bad doesn't get better if you give examples that are also bad
19:16<Eddi|zuHause>and don't go talking about debian bouncy/floppy/sluggy
19:18<Eddi|zuHause>because you had a funny idea about naming your versions after a movie from 20 years ago and you built a religious following around you still doesn't make your versioning scheme good
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19:23<LordAro>Wolf01: i'd imagine those files should be added to the generator and added to the repo
19:23<Wolf01>I usually wait for those to switch to the new VS version for OTTD
19:25<LordAro>https://gist.github.com/LordAro/421dacee7b6911628849beaabc209f0c i made another patch queue
19:26<LordAro>fixes all warnings with gcc7.1 & clang4.0
19:29<Wolf01>Oh they made a FALLTHROUGH macro, or you made it?
19:29<LordAro>i made it
19:29<LordAro>making use of the relevant compiler or standard attributes where possible
19:30<Wolf01>Oh, now I found the definition
19:32<Wolf01>- bfh.type = TO_LE16('MB');
19:32<Wolf01>+ bfh.type = TO_LE16(0x4D42); // 'BM' constant <- isn't it 'MB'?
19:34<LordAro>...maybe
19:34<LordAro>defintely should be 'BM' constant, as that's what the header of a BMP is
19:35<LordAro>maybe that TO_LE16 is screwing with things
19:36<LordAro>hmm, nope, that doesn't do anything on normal systems
19:36*LordAro fixes
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19:37<Eddi|zuHause>uhm, but LE is "backwards" anway?
19:38<Eddi|zuHause>*any
19:38<LordAro>wait, yeah
19:38<LordAro>it's extra fun because the behaviour of the multicharacter constants is actually implementation defined
19:39<LordAro>(hence the vague attempt at fixing)
19:40<LordAro>i'm reasonable certain it should be 0x4D42
19:41<LordAro>there's actually an irritatingly large number of multicharacter constants in the source anyway, mostly to do with industry codes, afaict
19:41<LordAro>there's no nice way to fix them, either
19:42<LordAro>well, i thought of user defined literals, but you need C++14 for that
19:42<Eddi|zuHause>well, the 4-character codes are a combination of ttdp influence and RIFF files
19:43<Eddi|zuHause>you will find them everywhere...
19:44<LordAro>there's not *too* many of them
19:45<LordAro>but there's no easy fix
19:45<LordAro>(that isn't just littering the code with very odd hex values)
19:45<Eddi|zuHause>but only if you don't consider all the grfs :p
19:45<LordAro>oh, sure, i don't mind them when they're in a file
19:45<LordAro>just not in the cpp files :p
19:47<LordAro>i'd imagine the ones in the grf files are actually read in a defined way
19:48<Eddi|zuHause>well, you could make a macro that takes a character string, asserts it being length 4, and then composes the characters by | and << operators
19:48<LordAro>can you split a string in a macro?
19:48<LordAro>i'm not aware of a way
19:48<Eddi|zuHause>a[0]?
19:50<Eddi|zuHause>but i'm too far in a python mindset to deal with that kind of c++ shenanigans
19:50<LordAro>hmm, maybe
19:51<LordAro>can't put the assert inside a table definition though
19:51<LordAro>(which is where most of them are)
19:52<Eddi|zuHause>can't treat an assert as an expression? (and use the comma operator)
19:53<LordAro>i guess...? but dear lord that's horrible
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---Logclosed Wed Aug 09 00:00:05 2017