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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-08-11

---Logopened Fri Aug 11 00:00:08 2017
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02:40<V453000>thank you for the very nice reply Albert :) there are few like that
02:41<V453000>Alberth* :) sorry
02:41<V453000>ever since I work with Albert at work my muscle memory has a hard time to write your nickname without tab
02:45<@Alberth>we both know who you intend to address, so it's fine :)
02:46<@Alberth>until that Albert visits here too, that is :p
02:47<V453000>that's not very likely, yes :P
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03:37<V453000>it's also nice that there are these guys because they will definitely never slip from the attempt to be super realistic, gives me a feeling like I can afford to go more wild :P
03:38<V453000>I have some faith in them, they've been working on it for quite a while too, we are in close contact on skype, they have most of their code from my grfs :D
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03:43<Jay[m]>Just wanted to drop by and say thanks for building openttd, its a fantastic game :D
03:44<@Alberth>your welcome Jay, have fun :)
03:44<Jay[m]>Yup, I always am (while playing) :)
03:44<__ln__>Jay[m]: thank chris sawyer
03:45<Jay[m]>ln: does he frequent this channel? Just curious :o
03:45<@Alberth>Ha V, yes, that looks good, a bit too realistic to my taste, but fair enough. Nice that you work with them.
03:45<__ln__>dunno if he even approves of OpenTTD
03:46<@Alberth>he may lurk :p but indeed, highly unlikely
03:46<@Alberth>nah, lomo is much better
03:46<Jay[m]>Lolol :P
03:48<@Alberth>V, exists too, not sure I like it, it's too bland, I think
03:51<V453000>it's recurring the same bullshit that happens with opengfx
03:51<V453000>people grab zbase as their visual base and derive the style from that
03:52<V453000>I know this guy from openttdcoop :)
03:53<V453000>but I guess there is a good reason for this all, the style is simple to do which lets more people make things
03:53<@Alberth>yeah, just give a thing the right shape, and you're done
03:53<@Alberth>never mind the overall impression :p
03:54<@Alberth>it's a learning path :)
03:54<V453000>I have to say I kind of don't care anymore :) just minding my own
03:55<@Alberth>you've become wise, and try to improve yourself instead of others ;)
03:56<V453000>strong words. :D
03:57<@Alberth>I did find I have lost some things in the process though. I used to be able to just start coding on a problem. Now I can't do that any more, as soon as I start I see all kinds of problems that must be addressed to handle future needs
03:58<V453000>sounds stupidly familiar :P
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03:58<@Alberth>you raise your standards, and it becomes impossible to work below them :p
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06:06<Wolf01>Such headache, much pain
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06:21<Alkel_U3>Wolf01: thanks for sending the rain clouds, it's no longer scorching hot around here :-)
06:21<Wolf01>I hope I didn't send the wind too
06:21<Wolf01>150km/h bursts yesterday
06:22<Alkel_U3>no, the branches remain affixed to their respective trees
06:22<Wolf01> and sorry for the italian, but you can see the pictures :P
06:24<Alkel_U3>that seems a bit inconvenient
06:25<__ln__>Wolf01: ?
06:27<Alkel_U3>luckily Czech Republic is well surounded by mountain ranges so we're mostly spared of such extremities
06:28<Wolf01> HA! That's how I build my junctions on TF waiting to connect them later :D
06:28<Alkel_U3>I would definitely not want to be on a cable lift when that hit :P
06:29<Alkel_U3>heh, I like google maps' message with javascript disabled :D
06:38<Wolf01>Yup, I read that story
06:41<Wolf01>BTW, they are planning to go full Cussler's Sahara now, building a solar panel in the middle of the desert with a collector tower, maybe they will start to burn toxic wastes too
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06:53<V453000>ass is grass, Friday.
06:53<Wolf01>For me every day is like Monday
06:54<V453000>not bad
06:57<@Alberth>Wolf doesn't sleep, he resets himself
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07:01<V453000>repetitive 24hr memory loss
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07:03<Wolf01>It's more that I live a full week every day... every day perceived as a full boring week
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07:07<V453000>maybe time to change job? :D
07:07<Wolf01>That's what I really want
07:11<Wolf01>Like if it's easy
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07:11<V453000>I keep reading everywhere that companies have not enuf people
07:11<V453000>doesn't mean it's easy but idk :)
07:11<Wolf01>The line here is "it's plenty of jobs, but nobody wants you because they are too picky"
07:12<@Alberth>it probably means leave italy
07:12<@Alberth>still in europe, luckily :)
07:12<Wolf01>Yes, that's I would like to do, but I don't want to do it alone
07:13<Wolf01>*that's what
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07:14<@Alberth>non-trivial that, I am not sure I'd be prepared to do it, tbh
07:14<@Alberth>on the other hand, if the need arises, you start thinking otherwise, I guess
07:14<V453000>circumstances are always unique for everybody :)
07:14<V453000>I don't know what I would do if factorio was in say USA
07:14<@Alberth>bleh, 7 minutes initializing, then crash in 5 seconds in new code :p
07:14<V453000>I probably wouldn't be able to move either
07:15<V453000>even if it was in germany I would already have a problem
07:15<@Alberth>you'd likely never met factorio as artist
07:15<@Alberth>but some other graphics thing :)
07:16<V453000>well it still wouldn't be impossible, but well
07:19<@Alberth>knowing about the job is already problematic :)
07:20<V453000>well it's still openttd which brought me to it ;P
07:20<Wolf01>The actual problem in Italy is that the govern created some years ago a type of contract to give bonuses to companies which hire people from 18 to 30 years, and after 3-5 years (depending on the bonus they want) they can leave them at home... and the bonus can be used once for each person on a particuar job, I mean that if I worked 5 years in IT, I can't be hired again in IT from another
07:20<Wolf01>company with the bonus
07:21<@Alberth>solving a problem by creating a new one :(
07:21<Wolf01>And this literally killed every possible job opportunity for a lot of people
07:22<Wolf01>All the companies I proposed to told me I was the right figure they were searching, but they wouldn't hire me because uf this
07:22<Wolf01>At least the ones which replied to my proposal
07:24<V453000>so they just outright can't hire you? Or lose some bonus if they would?
07:24<V453000>that sounds pretty retarded
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07:28<@Alberth>it's not, it's perfectly normal comapny behavior
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07:28<V453000>I'm rather asking about the system
07:29<V453000>there are companies with bonuses and such company can hire you only once when you fall in 18-30y range? Or they can hire you multiple times but the bonus doesn't apply to you ?
07:30<@Alberth>bonus applies only one time, as far as I understood it
07:30<@Alberth>unless you change profession
07:31<@Alberth>every 3-5 years, until you're 30 :p
07:32<@Alberth>government is just stupidly thinking they can solve the youth emigration problem that way, imho
07:33<@Alberth>easy, you're 18-ish, no work in your country, you live in europe, no ties, what do you do?
07:33<@Alberth>ie emigrate to germany, france, the netherlands, denmark, etc
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07:34<V453000>yeah I understand that part
07:34<@Alberth>so italy has no youth left basically :p
07:34<Wolf01><V453000> there are companies with bonuses and such company can hire you only once when you fall in 18-30y range? Or they can hire you multiple times but the bonus doesn't apply to you ? <- the latter
07:35<V453000>ah ok
07:35<V453000>now I understand
07:35<Wolf01>And they won't hire you because they must pay more taxes
07:36<V453000>so they search for 31 year old specialists
07:36<V453000>because at that point taxes are normal again?
07:37<Wolf01>What do you chose from "18yr old, no knowledge, 40% less taxes, 80% wage" and "32yr old, good experience, full wage, full taxes"
07:37<V453000>well I know what I would choose but yeah, most companies would do different
07:38<V453000>mainly because the word quality is like prohibited nowadays
07:39<Wolf01>Yes, there are some, but only when the first option is so low that it's not an option
07:39<Wolf01>The others only consider the first option and then start crying out loud that they find nobody
07:40<@Alberth>you're talking about a country where the pipes of the water-supply are so leaky that >50% never arives at the destination
07:40<@Alberth>^ V
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07:49<V453000>still sounds weird
07:49<V453000>if everyone had the same system then why would people leave countries
07:49<V453000>the job availability should be relatively equal
07:49<V453000>I guess richer countries will always pay more though
07:49<Wolf01>Mainly because of other people :D
07:51<Wolf01>I would like to leave my town for better job opportunities and to be closest to main events/infrastructures/services... but here is so a nice place
07:51<__ln__>Wolf01: have you considered moving abroad?
07:51<@Alberth>yep, we get a lot of people from Poland doing jobs over here, because we pay much better
07:51<Wolf01>__ln__: yes I did, but as I said, not alone
07:53<@Alberth>it's good for those people, but in the end, it's quite bad for a country if a large part of the workforce moves out
07:53<@Alberth>at least I think so
07:53<Wolf01>It's bad for a country even when the biggest companies move out too
07:54<@Alberth>they do some shopping too :)
07:54<@Alberth>it's a result of one united europe, I guess
07:54<@Alberth>where things go a bit too fast to adapt
07:55<Wolf01>Yes, but selling the company to X (where X is in another part of Europe) and they then decide to relocate...
07:55<Wolf01>That's what happened with the biggest companies of my region alone, all of them
07:56<@Alberth>sure, why not, one time cost of moving, but if it's economically profitable...
07:56<@Alberth>wrt country taxes, work force, connectivity, etc
07:57<@Alberth>ie companies are moving out of Britain now, everybody in Europe hopes they come to their country
07:58<Wolf01>Some of the emigrated companies were recreated by the old workers which purchased the non-profitable patents from the company and they are now doing almost well, they aren't excellency but they can stand up
07:58<Wolf01>But they weren't able to re-hire all the workers
07:58<@Alberth>but it's not how commericalism works :p
07:59<Wolf01>And they produce almost obsolete products at low price
08:00<@Alberth>really, companies don't give a fuck about local workforce, in general, especially big international companies
08:00<@Alberth>they only care about money and stock-holders
08:01<Wolf01>And that's bad, look at FIAT, they got a lot of government help with our money, and then now are one of the biggest companied in the world, relocating the production outside of Italy and we won't see any money back
08:02<@Alberth>yup :(
08:02<@Alberth>can someone please add static typing to Python? thank you
08:03<Wolf01>And the government can't understand this, they continue to do always the same mistake: FIAT, Alitalia, banks in general
08:03<@Alberth>youth workers bonusses :)
08:05<Wolf01>I really hope this will change soon, we can't survive another decade like this
08:05<@Alberth>I hope so too, but this are slow changes :(
08:07<Wolf01>It won't change at all when this is all interest of people involved in our govern
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08:24<@Alberth>hmm, it helps if you set a flag that it needs to save results :p
08:25<@Alberth>o/ andy
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08:28<V453000>yo South
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08:31<Alkel_U3>Alberth: there are type hints at least...?
08:32<Alkel_U3>not that I know how much helpful that is :P
08:35<Wolf01>I should try python with VS2017
08:35<Wolf01>Or with vs141, just to piss off Eddi
08:36<@Alberth>Python is a bit too dynamic to reliably derive type information from it, without executing it
08:37<@Alberth>but my startup time is 6-7 minutes, and it's silly if it then crashes due to some typo :(
08:38<@Alberth>yay, it's running and saving data :)
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09:03<Wolf01>Does anybody knows a free software/webapp to do collaborative software design (mockups, diagrams, drawing, text)?
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09:05<andythenorth>google docs?
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09:19<Wolf01>Ok, I think I'll continue to use onenote
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10:20<supermop_>Wolf01: chrysler also got a lot of US government money, so there was some pressure to move at least some management jobs for Fiat-Chrysler to the US i recall
10:23<Wolf01>I don't give a fuck about management jobs, they can do it even from home, the problem is that there they are closing some factories
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10:39<Wolf01>Mmmh, blackout
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10:44<supermop_>closing car factories is nothing new
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10:44<supermop_>im kind of surprised there would even be that many left in italy
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11:23<supermop_>actually i wonder if they will make a fiat minivan at the windsor ontario plant
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12:01<Wolf01> I think this will be the outcome of __ln__'s chatbots if he trains them
12:06<V453000>kind of want to start a new factorio base
12:12<Wolf01>Me too
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13:04<@peter1138>just start in a new area of the map
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14:03<Shoshonite>I am wondering if anyone has a copy of the NML compiler for notroadtypes already compiled they would be willing to share with me.
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14:08<frosch123>it's linked in the forums
14:08<frosch123>in first post
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14:19<Shoshonite>cool, I was thinking that was just the sauce, I suppose it can be run as just the py code?
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14:39<frosch123>if you have python installed, you can just run it like that
14:39<frosch123>the binary is only for windows users
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14:53<greeter>quick question. how does one figure out who the admin of a server is?
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14:56<andythenorth>is it?
14:57<Wolf01>You should know that
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14:58<johannes_2>Hello, I keep forgetting it, but are there any cases where pre-signals are better than path-signals?
14:58<Wolf01>Something is killing my bandwidth again
14:59<johannes_2>E.g. if you have a station with n tracks, and 2-way rails from both sides, path signals always seem to do the job better or equally good...
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14:59<Wolf01>Ping 1616ms; 0.5Mbps/20Kbps
15:00<frosch123>johannes_2: you use pre-signals for priority lines and stuff
15:00<Shoshonite>also I am a windows user, Thx Frosch123. got it now
15:03<johannes_2>frosch123: ok, I just found something about priority merging where they are used
15:05<johannes_2>It looks like pre-signals are usually only being used to make checks in opposite directions
15:05<frosch123>thing is: path signals always act the same, pre-signals allow asymetric stuff
15:08<andythenorth>so eh
15:10<andythenorth>restaurant coach, or post office coach?
15:10<andythenorth>one gives bonus to pax, one gives bonus to mail
15:10<Wolf01>MAke them distinct and let the user decide
15:11<Wolf01>__ln___: in your infinite knowledge, does it happen that you know Euler angles?
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15:13<frosch123>isn't a post office coach the same as a mail van?
15:13<frosch123>or are there no mail vans?
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15:16<Eddi|zuHause>johannes_2: path signals are better in every "normal" use of signals
15:16<andythenorth>IRL restaurant cars tended to long not short :P
15:16<Eddi|zuHause>"normal" as in "trains actually go through them"
15:17<andythenorth>maybe I should do articulated :P
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: restaurant cars should be the same length as passenger cars
15:18<andythenorth>for realisms yes
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15:18<andythenorth>not for making integer lengths :P
15:19<andythenorth>22/8 is not helping much either :P
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds a tiny bit on the long side :p
15:20<andythenorth>10/8 locomotive + 6/8-6/8 articulated coaches :P
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>12 is a good size for long wagons
15:20<andythenorth>hey, this is probably 22/8
15:20<andythenorth>10/8 + 22/8 works
15:21<V453000> ._.
15:22<johannes_2>Eddi|zuHause: that's a good explanation. probably presignals should only be used when you use the signals to "calculate" something.
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you want the dining car not a too large fraction of total train length
15:23<andythenorth>I think 6/8 and realism can hang :)
15:23<andythenorth>and coaches/mail coaches are all 8/8
15:23<andythenorth>oh this is 6/8
15:24<andythenorth>must be realism
15:28<Wolf01>So you finally dropped integer lenghts?
15:29<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think you were listening properly :p
15:29<Wolf01>Meh, right
15:29<andythenorth>just waiting for the depot patch :P
15:29<Wolf01>You make it
15:30<andythenorth>nah, we try and make it look interesting enough that someone else does it
15:30<andythenorth>start a thread!
15:30<andythenorth>that always works, right?
15:30<Wolf01>It worked in the past
15:31<andythenorth>for 150 years of play, is 15 types of coach / mail coach too many?
15:31<Wolf01>Not sure about it now
15:31<andythenorth>they all have purpose :P
15:31<andythenorth>current IH has 7 types
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>request a new subforum for your project, and make 15 threads for each part
15:31<andythenorth>we could have a thread for each colour option on the gridlines
15:31<Wolf01>Owen please, add "Andy's stuff" subforum :P
15:32<andythenorth>nah, “Wolf’s stuff"
15:32<andythenorth>also one for “things peter1138 has a patch for"
15:32<Wolf01>I just do tech demos
15:32<andythenorth>and “ideas eddi has explained comprehensively, but not quite coded”
15:33<Wolf01>Why isn't there a subforum for just the devs?
15:34<Wolf01>Maybe because devs use their own ottd dev profile
15:34<andythenorth>call it ‘OpenTTD Development” ?
15:46<@Alberth>sounds good :)
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16:00<Eddi|zuHause>uhm what? "concert" expansion for cities skylines?
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, available 17.8.
16:02<Wolf01>Sure they know how to monetize
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16:06<@peter1138>what have i got patch for?
16:07<andythenorth>whatever is mentioned
16:08<andythenorth>depot displays lines for train lengths?
16:08<andythenorth>this looks like nonsense
16:09<Wolf01>Reply with "don't remove/change grfs from a savegame"
16:10<andythenorth>is it that?
16:10<andythenorth>or broken translations?
16:11<Wolf01>Eh, ask him if he found that nasty topic in suggestions
16:12<Wolf01>Maybe he just downloaded a broken grf for his language
16:12<Wolf01>But we can't know it with just that little information
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16:33<andythenorth>15 types of pax coach is fricking loads
16:33*andythenorth thinks this might be a bad idea
16:34<Wolf01>Could you use liveries for different type of the same rolling stock please?
16:35<Wolf01>It's already a pain to look for a specific wagon with 2452 cargos, don't fill the list with 15 more pax coaches :P
16:40<andythenorth>if you have ‘vehicles expire’ it would be fewer
16:40*andythenorth never uses that
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16:57<LordAro> hmm.
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17:22<Eddi|zuHause>somehow this bus lane is not working at all
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17:41<__ln___>Wolf01: sorry, i don't know such angles. i'll pass the question to mr. zuHause.
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17:43<Eddi|zuHause>i know of an euler line, but not of an euler angle
17:46<Wolf01>Yaw, pitch, roll
17:46<Wolf01>If I understood them well
17:46<Wolf01>And people always say to leave out yaw
17:48<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, good pilots don't need yaw, you steer with roll
17:48<Eddi|zuHause>i'm an expert. i spent lots of time flying planes in KSP.
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17:49<Shoshonite>In KSP real pilots fly with thrust, leave out Pitch and Roll. Problem solved :)
17:49<Wolf01>The problem is that I have a 3d camera which can look at custom pitch, should not roll (at least not by itself), but I need to rotate it
17:52<Eddi|zuHause>i have no idea what you mean by that
17:52<Wolf01>The same camera you are using in C:S
17:52<Wolf01>Now I have a spaceship like camera
17:52<Wolf01>(which doesn't even work well)
17:53<Eddi|zuHause>i steer my camera in C:S with qe/wasd/rf
17:54<Eddi|zuHause>which one of these is pitch/yaw/roll?
17:54<Wolf01>You can't move the camera with the mouse?
17:54<Eddi|zuHause>also, in games like this i occasionally need to flip q and e
17:55<Eddi|zuHause>maybe i can, but other than mouse at screen border, i don't usually do that
17:55<Wolf01>No right mouse button to rotate the view?
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>some games have that
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>sometimes it's right+left click
17:57<Wolf01>Ok, I have problems with the camera rotation
17:57<Wolf01>I can look up and down, but not left and right :)
17:58<Wolf01>At least not the common neft and right, when I move the mouse sideways the view rotates like a donut around the point I'm looking at
17:58<Eddi|zuHause>usually right click moves the camera parallel (like wasd), right+left rotates (qe/rf)... i don't know what of that C:S does
17:59<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, most games do that
17:59<Eddi|zuHause>rotate around the focus point, not the camera
18:00<Wolf01>Yes, but I would like it more if it rotates along the plane, not perpendicular to the plane
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18:02<Eddi|zuHause>that sentence does not make sense
18:03<Eddi|zuHause>also, i'm not sure what kind of solution you're after
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18:23<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but do you need an abstract solution, or a solution which you can implement, or within the scope of the existing program?
18:24<Eddi|zuHause>the abstract solution is that you need to move the rotation axis from the point of focus to the location of the camera
18:24<Wolf01>A solution I can implement would be cool, understanding how to solve this problem without just copy-pasting a solution would be cooler
18:25<Wolf01> this is the actual camera code
18:27<Eddi|zuHause>there's no way i will read through that at this hour
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18:28<Wolf01>Just look at the FPCamera
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18:30<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, lots of vector/matrix operations
18:30<Eddi|zuHause>you need to replace those
18:30<Eddi|zuHause>or add new ones
18:32<Eddi|zuHause>again, not the right hour for that
18:32<Eddi|zuHause>you need a clear head and write this stuff down properly.
18:33<Wolf01>Yeah, and some more knowledge than some cinematic lessons taken 12 years ago
18:34<Eddi|zuHause>the matrix operations are fairly easy. you just have to chain them the right way
18:34<Eddi|zuHause>pick the point/axis you want to rotate around, move that point into the origin, multiply with a rotation matrix, and move the point back to the original place
18:36<Eddi|zuHause>a rotation matrix is like a unity matrix, except 4 values are replaced with sin(angle), cos(angle) or negatives thereof
18:38<Eddi|zuHause>so translation, rotation, opposite translation
18:39<Wolf01>I think that is already wat it does, but I mixed up things
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18:40<Eddi|zuHause>yes. you probably picked the wrong translation
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18:43<Eddi|zuHause>you probably have the translation start at the point the camera is looking at, rather than the point where the camera is
18:44<Eddi|zuHause>so the easy solution would be to add another translation from the point where the camera is to the point where it's looking at
18:44<Eddi|zuHause>and the reverse at the other end
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18:45<Eddi|zuHause>mind you, both types of rotations might be useful in certain situations
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19:09<Laedek>Where do I need to move Goods to?
19:10<ST2>or Towns, since enough buildings to accept them :)
19:10<Eddi|zuHause>usually city centers that have large buildings
19:10<ST2>use the Land information tool to see each building info
19:10<Eddi|zuHause>typically at least 3
19:11<ST2>poor Laedek, a storm of info - he's gonna go mad xD
19:12<Eddi|zuHause>that is really unusual in this channel. or at this time.
19:12<Laedek>They are moved with truck depots just like other materials?
19:13<Eddi|zuHause>truck station, train station, dock, whatever
19:13<Laedek>What is unusual?
19:13<Eddi|zuHause>so many people answering
19:13<ST2>just make sure to station cover the necessary buildings to accept Goods :)
19:14<Wolf01>Eddi: they were all interested to your explanation :P
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23:15<NCommander>evening world
23:16<ST2>morning :)
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