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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-08-12

---Logopened Sat Aug 12 00:00:09 2017
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03:04<andythenorth>o/
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03:56<@peter1138>moo
03:56<andythenorth>baa
03:57<andythenorth>so many “deprecated call to get_nml_expression_for_unit_cargo_loaded_percent()”
03:57*andythenorth should fix all this
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04:02<V453000>I think I should rework all trees
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04:13<andythenorth>V453000: rework everything
04:13<andythenorth>but just one thing at once :P
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04:20<@Alberth>o/
04:28<andythenorth>lo Alberth
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05:35<Eddi|zuHause>so... how do i quickly (and temporarily) create 1000 abandoned houses for building a fusion reactor?
05:36<@Alberth>add road, build 1000 houses, delete road ?
05:36<Eddi|zuHause>no, the houses disappear then, not get empty
05:38<@Alberth>disconnect the road from other parts of the city?
05:40<@Alberth>disconnect power?
05:40<@Alberth>disconnect water?
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05:53<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think cutting the water worked
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06:02<@Alberth>python json module makes wild assumptions on the size of the data file: "return loads(fp.read(), ... "
06:02<@Alberth>my data file is 900MB :p
06:02<LordAro>:D
06:02<LordAro>just download more ram
06:04<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: i don't think that library was designed with your use case in mind :p
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06:05<LordAro>some googling suggests ijson or json-streamer
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06:07<@Alberth>oh, it fits, just takes 5 minutes to load :p
06:07<LordAro>^^
06:09<@Alberth>:)
06:10<Eddi|zuHause>oh, it did work... just i didn't do enough, only 750 buildings :/
06:11<@Alberth>not sure how a fusion reactor is connected to abadoned houses
06:11<@Alberth>seems a bit strange
06:13<@Alberth>hmm, maybe they use RE for parsing, which can't handle matching from a stream
06:16<Eddi|zuHause>fusion reactor needs the observatory
06:17<Eddi|zuHause>and the observatory needs 1000 abandoned houses
06:17<Eddi|zuHause>for some reason
06:17<Eddi|zuHause>maybe they don't want light pollution :p
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06:29<Wolf01>o/
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06:35<Wolf01>All hail buffer chests!
06:36<Eddi|zuHause>bwäääh... 975 abandoned buildings :/
06:39<Alkel_U3>I suppose there isn't an option to auto-raze them all at once :-)
06:40<Wolf01>You are making me willing to play cities xl
06:40<Eddi|zuHause>you DON'T want to erase them
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06:41<Eddi|zuHause>but yes, there is a mod that will auto-destroy abandoned buildings, but i don't think it's worth it. you don't usually get a lot of them
06:45<Alkel_U3>Wolf01: apparently you sent wind yesterday, too. I just oveeheard news on the radio that trees were falling yesterday and lightning took out safety equipment on some railway connections
06:45<Wolf01>Eh
06:50<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds less apocalyptic than the news i read from northern italy the last few days
06:52<Eddi|zuHause>4 of 5 weeks of sustaining 1000 abandoned buildings
06:52<Wolf01>We also lost about 80% of crops in my area, but it might be an exaggeration and most of then will be able to recover for harvest
06:52<Wolf01>*them
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06:57<Wolf01>https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6599 "please fix this", I think this makes the game unplayable
06:58<LordAro>literally unplayable
06:59<LordAro>probably a valid bug though
06:59<eekee1>lol
06:59<Wolf01>Yes, but at least it doesn't break things :P
06:59<Wolf01>Maybe some invalidate window could fix it
07:01<Wolf01>https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6601 meh...
07:02<Wolf01>I found the same problem by mixing a rail set and an industry set with same cargoes and different names
07:02<@Alberth>o/
07:02<Wolf01>Maybe that's the reason for the other bug reported from this guy with the missing string for cargo
07:03<LordAro>i think that's because different tiles of the industry accept different cargoes
07:03<LordAro>confusing, but intentional(?)
07:04<Wolf01>Nono, they are the same cargoes but with different names (at least that's what happened to me
07:04<Wolf01>Lunch, back in ha while
07:04<Wolf01>s//h
07:05<LordAro>oh, right
07:05<LordAro>weird
07:06<Eddi|zuHause>now, how long until people move back into this neighbourhood
07:11<Wolf01>Add an immigrants mod
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08:00<Wolf01>https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6587 kek
08:03<LordAro>lack of space?
08:03<Wolf01>Could be
08:04<Wolf01>I don't know any other problem on windows which might cause this, unless OTTD locks files while downloading and fails to unlock them at the right time
08:05<LordAro>i'd imagine there *could* be a bug somewhere in the downloader if you download a large amount all at once, but not one that would cause a "File not writable" error
08:06<@Alberth>32bit, and a too huge file :p
08:06<@Alberth>we should cap at 256MB :p
08:06<LordAro>haha
08:06<Wolf01>Ahaha
08:08<@Alberth>or maybe more than 10 selections or so
08:10<Wolf01>https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6586 <- I don't think that a weird grey line is painted over, but the sprite is cut away because too big to fit the widget
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08:12<Wolf01>Quak
08:12<@Alberth>o/
08:13<Wolf01>https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6590 <- we should fix this once and for all stuff. NRT requires it too
08:13<@peter1138>Wolf01, but it's over the sprite
08:14<@peter1138>should only be 1 pixel high, not 2
08:14<@peter1138>and is also obiwan on the first pixel too
08:15<Wolf01>Hmmm right
08:17<Wolf01>It seem that the padding is drawn after content
08:18<@Alberth>do you read that from the code?
08:18<Wolf01>Also the padding is wrong, since those are 2 merged lines, it should be 1,1,0,1 on first line and 0,1,1,1 on the second (top, right, bottom, left)
08:18<@Alberth>padding is just administrative distance afaik
08:18<@Alberth>if you're talking widget padding, that is
08:18<Wolf01>I didn't read the code, but when I tried to use the padding for the train lenght it fucked up things
08:21<Wolf01>Best I got was a transparent area as padding :P
08:22<@Alberth>see-through window :p
08:23<@Alberth>it does need a background indeed
08:23<@Alberth>eg the settings windows use padded widgets on top of the grey background widget (forgot its name)
08:24<@Alberth>otherwise indeed you should not leave holes between widgets
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08:24<@Alberth>we could enhance the dirty rectangle code to render the holes too :p
08:24<Wolf01>To me it seem it's acting as a margin instead of a padding
08:25<@Alberth>probably another name for it
08:25<Wolf01>They are 2 different things
08:26<@Alberth>there is also padding between the content of a widget, and its edges, don't remember what name that has
08:26<Wolf01>[<-padding->[content]<-padding->] vs [<-padding->content<-padding->]
08:26<Wolf01>The first one is what OTTD wants
08:26<@Alberth>yep, different
08:26<@Alberth>no, we want both
08:27<@Alberth>look at game options window
08:27<@Alberth>lots of gaps between widgets
08:27<@Alberth>newgrf window too
08:28<Wolf01>Yes, but it should be <-margin->[content]<-margin-> or [<-padding->content<-padding->], not a mix of the 2
08:28<@Alberth>we have both
08:29<Wolf01>Then the box function fails to render the padding correctly
08:29<@Alberth>don't remember their names, but sure, that could be weirdly named
08:29<@Alberth>the thing that you call margin doesn't render anything for the margin
08:30<@Alberth>you can only do that on top of a background
08:30<@Alberth>also widget sizes that you get may be different than what you asked for, you have to use provided sizes
08:31<Wolf01>Because if I do PANEL, PADDING(1,1,1,1), PANEL I get [<-padding->[content]<-padding->] with transparent padding, which acts exactly like [<-margin->[content]<-margin->] applied to PANEL, PANEL, MARGIN(1,1,1,1)
08:31<Wolf01>And that is wrong
08:32<Wolf01>Padding background should always be rendered, if you don't want it, use margin
08:35<Wolf01>https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6596 WAT?!
08:36<@Alberth><sigh/>
08:45<LordAro>lol.
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09:03<Wolf01>How do you activate dev mode?
09:04<@peter1138>well
09:04<@peter1138>first become a dev
09:04<Wolf01>Oh, ok, it's the newgrf developer tools, which is used for everything...
09:13<V453000>gg
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09:13<Wolf01>Alberth: I need a kickstart on creating new windows
09:15<Wolf01>I made a windowdesc, extended the window class, put a new entry in the help dropdown menu, it executes the new MyWindow() but nothing shows up
09:24<@Alberth>busy right now, grab a small window like bridges selection or so, and strip it?
09:25<Wolf01>I've done that with the about window
09:25<@Alberth>otherwise, I can have a look later
09:25<Wolf01>No clue
09:26<@Alberth>you construct the window widgets in the constructor?
09:26<@Alberth>hmm, I guess you do
09:26<Wolf01>Uhm, maybe I dtripped too much
09:26<Wolf01>*stripped
09:27<@Alberth>not sure how good the "about" window is, some are a bit fuzzy/weird due to special behavior
09:27<@Alberth>I'd think it automagically calls OnPaint to draw the widgets from the base class, so that should work
09:29<Wolf01>Ok, InitNested at least triggered an error
09:35<@Alberth> gaps in the widget numbering?
09:35<@Alberth>or overlapping numbers
09:36<Wolf01>I added a new window class, a "new" window number, new strings, and I get an error about newgrf string
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09:41<Wolf01>Take your time, I can wait :P
09:47<@Alberth>do you have a patch?
09:48<Wolf01>Yes, wait
09:48<@Alberth>I'll clone the repo instead :p
09:50<Wolf01>https://gist.github.com/Wolfolo/c487d750906b2d136203ff58f7d7c718
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09:51<stefino>hello guys..anyone who can program in nfo ?
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09:54<stefino>I need to program stationtile what has only backgroud. How can I do it? In tutorial on forum he has background and foreground. I'm talking about this line "7 * 62 00 04 02 01 00 08 "TUT0" 09 02 F4 03 00 00 00 00 00 10 05 03 2D 84 00 00 00 00 00 10 10 7A 2E 84 00 00 80 F3 03 00 00 00 00 00 05 10 03 2F 84 00 00 00 00 00 10 10 7A 30 84 00 00 80"
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09:57<stefino>he has two tiles with background and foreground. and the second queastion. how nfo know what sprite is for background and what is for foreground? thx
10:05<@Alberth>Wolf01: do you want a parameterized titlebar?
10:06<Wolf01>Isn't that the common one?
10:06<@Alberth>most titlebars have a fixed string :)
10:07<Wolf01>I put WID_UT_CAPTION
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10:09<@Alberth>that's the widget number, STR_WHITE_STRING is the text, which says "{white}{string}"
10:09<@Alberth>ie you must provide a string to paint the title bar
10:09<@Alberth>no worries, I added your new string, let's see if that works
10:09<Wolf01>Oh yes
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10:11<Wolf01>So it was that one... weird error
10:12<@Alberth>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/py8bdelio
10:12<@Alberth>http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/red_window.png one red window :)
10:13<@Alberth>making a new string STR_UI_TEST_TITLE : {WHITE}UI Test is simpler here
10:15<@Alberth>stack dump indicated it was computing size of a widget and something ...GetStringWithArgs...
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10:16<@Alberth>that's kick enough?
10:20<LordAro>Alberth: shouldn't it error hen not providing a string, rather than just doing nothing?
10:20<LordAro>when*
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10:21<LordAro>stefino: probably better to ask on the forums, more permanence there
10:23<stefino>ok ok
10:24<Wolf01>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pktgkftph Alberth: where is the grey panel?
10:24<Wolf01>And the blue panel too?
10:24<Wolf01>*red
10:24<Wolf01>Blue is from another test :P
10:27<@Alberth>LordAro: euhm, it crashed, how's that nothing? :p
10:28<@Alberth>Wolf01: you have a panel with one widget on top of it, that top widget is expanded to fit the room that needs to be filled
10:29<@Alberth>ie your panel is behind the widget
10:30<@Alberth>code tries not to have gaps in the window (ie between the widgets) :)
10:31<Wolf01>Ok, I think I understood how it works now, SetPadding adds a margin (html speaking)
10:31<LordAro>Alberth: Wolf01 described nothing happening
10:31<Wolf01>LordAro: yes, before calling InitNested()
10:31<Wolf01>Then it crashed
10:32<LordAro>ah right
10:32<LordAro>heh
10:32<@Alberth>Wolf01: I was that thinking too, while I owondered about the padding
10:32<V453000>hm, my own system is starting to defeat me
10:32<V453000>it's just too complicated
10:32<@Alberth>ha :)
10:32<V453000>track postproduction pipeline that is
10:32<Wolf01>Automate it more
10:32<V453000>it's outworldly levels of insane
10:32<V453000>there's so many things doing stuff to other things
10:32<@Alberth>reduce magic special cases, usually
10:33<Wolf01>Ha, welcome to software development
10:33<V453000>the thing is that everything is like a magic case
10:33<V453000>rail tunnels especially
10:33<V453000>terrain is a slope but not
10:33<V453000>etc
10:33<@Alberth>you may be over-generalizing, trying to cover too much
10:34<V453000>I think the whole approach is upside down
10:34<@Alberth>so adding special handling becomes kludgy
10:34<@Alberth>ah yes, started at the wrong end, that happens too :)
10:34<V453000>the original idea was to have strips of "rail stuff" so that I can for example easily copy things between rail, monorail, maglev, and their snow/desert editions
10:35<V453000>but doing stuff to individual things is absolute mayhem
10:35<V453000>the fact that I can't even zoom beyond 100% isn't helping either
10:35<V453000>(the spritesheet is 16k, after effects can only use 30 000 width of a composition, so I guess the zoom is disabled for that reason)
10:35<V453000>XD
10:36<V453000>if I had each frame handled separately I could do this
10:36<V453000>hm FUCK
10:36<V453000>another thing I need to rework? :D
10:36<V453000>this is probably the absolute biggest thing of all BRIX
10:37<@Alberth>aligning your view with reality of the problem is always the biggest problem
10:37<V453000>oh yean and it combines with ground tiles in 1094289 different ways
10:37<V453000>yeah*
10:37<V453000>well I did rework this at least once in the past when I was doing rawr :D
10:37<@Alberth>enough to have lots of fun :p
10:38<@Alberth>working hard to automate things so you can be lazy never really reached the lazy part for me either
10:38<V453000>the thing is I am not sure if it is a good idea to have 12x50 individual sprites to handle
10:38<V453000>but apparently it might be necessary
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10:38<@Alberth>can't you do something in-between?
10:39<V453000>yeah somewhat
10:39<V453000>I have some ideas from past exprience that can help
10:39<@Alberth>ie everything in one system, and each individual are the extremes
10:39<@Alberth>maybe make a library that does small parts, which you can apply when needed or so
10:40<V453000>that's pretty much what I have in mind
10:40<V453000>sequences of edits which can be applied to anything
10:40<V453000>but separated in time so I can still work in a large XY window
10:40<@Alberth>don't be afraid to recompute things, so you can make modular steps
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10:40<@Alberth>lots of independent steps is easier to work with than passing data through each step
10:41<@Alberth>might take some additional cpu time, but who cares, there is plenty of that
10:41<V453000>it's not about cpu
10:41<V453000>it's about staying reasonably sane
10:42<@Alberth>yep, one way is to raise abstraction level, make each step smarter so it knows what to do by itself
10:42<@Alberth>so you can think in separate steps
10:43<@Alberth>but maybe it doesn't apply
10:43<andythenorth>V453000: are you making pipelines? o_O
10:44<V453000>well at this point I am looking at a thoroughly rusty and full of shit sewer :D
10:44<@Alberth>more like pipes all over the place :p
10:45*andythenorth had idea of clean pipelines for pixa
10:45<andythenorth>it worked
10:45<andythenorth>but
10:45<andythenorth>one of the steps is huge
10:46<andythenorth>it’s basically tiny-step > huge huge step > tiny step :P
10:46<Wolf01>So Alberth, how should I add an html padding to show the red panel too?
10:47<LordAro>> html
10:47<Wolf01>SetPIP?
10:47<LordAro>> ottd windows
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10:48<@Alberth>Wolf01: why would you want a gap in the window?
10:48<Wolf01>I don't want a gap in the window
10:48<@Alberth>oh, the caption thingie
10:48<Wolf01>I want a space from the border of the container
10:49<V453000>:DDDDDDDDDDDDDD
10:49<V453000>I managed to view the whole scheme of the thing
10:49<@Alberth>SetPadding iirc
10:49<Wolf01>PIP seem to work
10:49<V453000>got to screenshot that shit
10:49<Wolf01>Padding puts a transparent margin
10:49<Wolf01>PIP puts a padding
10:49<@Alberth>PIP is for sequences of widgets
10:50<@Alberth>pip is translated to padding :p
10:52*andythenorth approves of FS ticket closing
10:53<eekee>ugh cargodist! i like the idea, but i always end up with trams swarming like maggots and connections overloaded anyway
10:53<andythenorth>cargodist isn’t
10:54<eekee>cargodest :)
10:54<andythenorth>just use A-B networks
10:54<eekee>i do
10:54<eekee>lol
10:54<andythenorth>don’t make A-B-C-D-E-F networks, with all connected
10:54<andythenorth>cdist is (A) a hard technical achievement (b) mostly just automated transfers
10:54<eekee>right
10:55<andythenorth>if you connect all your pax networks, your game will start to suck
10:55<eekee>right
10:55<@Alberth>Wolf01: https://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/padding.png https://paste.openttdcoop.org/peh6uegcd
10:56<eekee>i've done pretty well in one or two games, but one of them has flat land, lots of ocean, and roads on 3x3 grid so it's easy to put in metro & intercity
10:56<eekee>that game is also pax-only
10:57<@Alberth>Wolf01: pip means pre-intermediate-post, and is used in a horizontal or vertical container (and a panel is a vertical container). It gives you spacing between widgets without having to add padding everywhere
10:58*andythenorth cannot comment on this one :) https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6603
10:58<andythenorth>out of my knowledge
10:59<eekee>imo cdist would benefit from reducing the production of well-served buildings
10:59<Wolf01>Alberth: yeah, I noticed it, but how did you get that padding?
11:00<andythenorth>eekee: that’s not quite the solution it seems
11:01<andythenorth>it might clear the stations a bit
11:01<andythenorth>but it’s counter-intuitive
11:01<andythenorth>adding more service leads to fewer pax
11:01<@Alberth>Wolf01: I typed the numbers :p
11:01<Wolf01>http://imgur.com/a/K826r I get this
11:01<andythenorth>the solution is point-point networks, in my experience
11:02<@Alberth>Wolf01: you removed the background panel, why did you do that?
11:02<Wolf01>It's there
11:02<eekee>andythenorth: if more service led to fewer pax, i wouldn't be complaining :)
11:03<Wolf01>NWidget(WWT_PANEL, COLOUR_RED), SetPadding(10, 20, 30, 40),
11:03<Wolf01> NWidget(WWT_CAPTION, COLOUR_GREEN),
11:03<Wolf01> EndContainer(),
11:03<@Alberth>Padding applies to the widget before it
11:04<Wolf01>Ok, I must think about it as a margin
11:04<@Alberth>ie you made the background widget smaller, and the caption widget then expands on it
11:04<Wolf01>NWidget(WWT_PANEL, COLOUR_RED),
11:04<Wolf01> NWidget(WWT_CAPTION, COLOUR_GREEN), SetPadding(10, 20, 30, 40),
11:04<Wolf01> EndContainer(),
11:04<@Alberth>yep
11:04<Wolf01>This should work as I want
11:04<@Alberth>likely you don't want 10, 20, 30, 40, but yes :p
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11:05<V453000>I don't even think this is everything https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8541/BRIX-tracks-Ae-flowchart.png
11:06<andythenorth>V453000: that is art
11:06<V453000>no that's fucking mayhem
11:07<V453000>:D
11:07<andythenorth>do we need 65535 stations per grf? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6562?project=1&pagenum=2
11:07<andythenorth>do we need stuff just because we can?
11:07<eekee>andythenorth: in the games i can't complain about, i use nuts with its 'local' trains of huge capacity and brief loading time. i could use a comparable tram
11:08<andythenorth>which tram set do you use?
11:08<eekee>egrvts
11:08<@Alberth>I know garyg has lots of full object grfs, but stations?
11:08<andythenorth>I can’t reject it because I’m not a dev :P
11:08<andythenorth>or something
11:09<andythenorth>but 65535 is total nonsense
11:09<andythenorth>are we hitting a 255 limit or something?
11:09<frosch123>andythenorth: i made a survey, there are stations grfs which have like 250 already
11:09<andythenorth>is the range 255, then 65535?
11:10<frosch123>anyway, i would like to remove several 255 limits at a time
11:10<frosch123>instead of one-by-one
11:10<andythenorth>so that FS patch is valid?
11:10<@Alberth>the issue is valid :)
11:10<frosch123>i think so
11:11<frosch123>but the included patch is not necessarily
11:12<Wolf01>http://imgur.com/a/K826r Ok, it seem that I finally understood how to use the "padding"
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11:12<andythenorth>is it like html margin and padding?
11:12<Wolf01>No
11:12<Wolf01>It's the opposite
11:13<andythenorth>ha
11:13<Wolf01>OTTD padding = html margin
11:13<stefino>one quick question - what grfcodec means if it write Insufficient meta-data while reading sprite 3?
11:13<stefino>what is insufficient?
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11:14<andythenorth>stuck trains are part of the game no? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6565
11:15<andythenorth>imho, part of the playing experience is occasionally finding your network totally log-jammed
11:17<@Alberth>closed
11:17<@Alberth>:) I am getting to o good, don't get that fun things much any more
11:18<andythenorth>this one is awesome :) https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6550?project=1&pagenum=2
11:18<andythenorth>can we commit it?
11:19<@Alberth>bit of a waste to spend a commit on it
11:20<@Alberth>usually these things get changed when the code near it gets changed, or when there are "enough" of them
11:22<andythenorth>this: why? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6416
11:22<Wolf01>Could I rename all the widget functions because of reasons?
11:22<andythenorth>local authorities are part of the game
11:22<andythenorth>is it for testing newgrfs?
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11:24<Wolf01>I don't think SetPadding is used outside of widgets, and it mixes up with SetBits, SetDParam...
11:24<@Alberth>stefino: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/grfcodec/repository/entry/src/readinfo.cpp#L170 also lines 185 and 207, looks like the header cannot be parsed
11:25*andythenorth wishes there were no conditional orders :P
11:26<andythenorth>25% of FS is more conditional order bollocks
11:26<andythenorth>OrderScript?
11:26<andythenorth>what problem are these people solving? My trains do everything I want, and I make loads and loads of money :P
11:27<@Alberth>Wolf01: "because of reasons" doesn't sound very convincing. Also, it's just in the widget description, make a temporary hack #define SetMargin SetPadding if you must, and remove it just before submitting, but it's simpler to design the window once and ignore it, imho
11:28<@Alberth>andythenorth: won't work, stuff does much more with orders than people think
11:28<@Alberth>eg cargodest looks for stations that will be visited, etc
11:28<andythenorth>can I just reject all conditional order feature requests?
11:29<@Alberth>anything with random and time-dependent behavior is pretty much no go, as orders should be deterministic
11:30<@Alberth>different parts look at orders, and it only works if all parts get the same idea of what will happen
11:31<andythenorth>what does this mean? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6312
11:32<@Alberth>sounds asif he want a distance between airports in the order window (?)
11:32<_dp_>andythenorth, not everyone likes to deal with stupid authorities :p
11:33<_dp_>isn't there already distance between stations?
11:33<andythenorth>why is a distance between airports needed?
11:33<eekee>agreed orders should be deterministic!
11:33<andythenorth>just route planes
11:33<_dp_>ah, mb it's from patchpack
11:33<andythenorth>they work fine
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11:34<@Alberth>perhaps when you change orders, although no idea how that's useful
11:36<Wolf01>Alberth: I mean to rename all the functions to NWSetPadding, NWSetFill etc, it should be easier to find them also with autosuggest
11:39<andythenorth>eh, isn’t this the intended behaviour of ctrl-click? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5990
11:39<andythenorth>ctrl-click shares orders, even if vehicle already has orders
11:39<eekee>i only use conditional orders to work around servicing wierdness. you can't set servicing interval for a whole order group or vehicle class at once (painful), and "go to nearest depot" does not usefully share the load between two depots
11:40<eekee>in both cases i'd rather there were another way
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11:46<@Alberth>andy, he wants some warning or so before overwriting orders, I use that feature a lot, having to click OK each time doesn't seem useful
11:46<@Alberth>with the exception that if you ctrl-click a station tile which happens to have a train
11:46<@Alberth>then it shares the train orders instead of visiting that station
11:47<@Alberth>I could see use of a disambiguating question there
11:48<andythenorth>modal messages rarely solve much :P
11:48<@Alberth>it gets very complicated very quickly
11:48<andythenorth>I requested closure ;)
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11:52<@Alberth>@calc (5*60+43)*100/75/60
11:52<@DorpsGek>Alberth: 7.62222222222
11:55<eekee>hahaha! pages of trams with capacity over 200 passengers, while i've been using egrvts which has *none*!
11:57<eekee>re. overwriting orders: i hate confirmation popups, i find them kinda painful, and there's never really any need to ctrl-click unless you want to share orders
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12:02<@Alberth>add full-load goto order also uses ctrl-click
12:03<andythenorth>it’s pretty rare to accidentally click a vehicle when aiming for a station
12:03<andythenorth>but I have done it more than once
12:03<andythenorth>is it worth fixing?
12:09<@Alberth>no idea how, without making it very complicated
12:11*andythenorth thinks not
12:11<@Alberth>if you add better multi-cargo support, "full load" becomes useless all by itself
12:12<@Alberth>except for trains carrying 1 cargo only
12:13<andythenorth>I am not convinced it adds anything
12:13<@Alberth>consist-based orders would make sharing mostly obsolete
12:13<@Alberth>I am also not convinced it's useful
12:13*andythenorth offers a false dichotomy
12:14<andythenorth>nah actually
12:15<@Alberth>at least you add complicated words :p
12:15<andythenorth>I was trying to compare benefits of templated consists (big advance)
12:15<eekee>what i meant is you don't *need* to ctrl-click to set orders ever, unless you want to share. the alternative is just 2 clicks
12:16<andythenorth>against all these things that add complexity to existing stuff
12:16<andythenorth>most of these FS multiply complexity to meet use case of limited handful of players
12:16<andythenorth>whereas templated consists might benefit everyone
12:16<eekee>often the case
12:17<Wolf01>Consist based could be faked by using the trains list as a depot and using the groups to automatically share the orders and clone the vehicles
12:18<eekee>i've not found groups useful yet, mostly because i didn't want to add trains individually when i already have so many in order groups :)
12:19<@Alberth>I consider them useless too
12:19<frosch123>you can mass-add vehicles which share orders
12:19<andythenorth>I use groups all the time
12:19<andythenorth>for auto-replace
12:19<frosch123>otherwise their only purpose is autoreplace
12:19<andythenorth>they are very limited
12:19<andythenorth>but they perform that function very well
12:19<@Alberth>I just autoreplace the engine globally
12:19<frosch123>you do not need every engine in a group
12:20<frosch123>instead you can setup add-hoc groups when you want to autoreplace a subset
12:20<andythenorth>that’s what I do
12:20<@Alberth>why would you want to replace a subset only?
12:20<Wolf01>I use groups to check the average profit of the vehicles which are in the group
12:20<@Alberth>if only groupd would provide that info :p
12:21<frosch123>Alberth: when the game starts with 2 viable engines, and later you have 3 options
12:21<@Alberth>although someone may have add that feature
12:21<frosch123>or if the cargo turned out heavier than guessed first
12:21<frosch123>so one route needs a different engines
12:21<@Alberth>moar steam engines!
12:21<@Alberth>:)
12:21<andythenorth>how many companies should there be? https://bugs.openttd.org
12:22<@Alberth>1 ?
12:22<andythenorth>oops https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6263
12:22<andythenorth>is 16 a hard limit?
12:22<eekee>1! :D
12:22*andythenorth has ‘close ticket’ prepped and ready
12:22<Wolf01>Alberth: http://imgur.com/a/j77gD
12:24<@Alberth>andy, bottom comment of planet person says it all, I think
12:25<@Alberth>Wolf01: group window?
12:25<Wolf01>Yes
12:26<@Alberth>ok, so some stuff got added :)
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12:47*andythenorth closed that ticket
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12:52<Wolf01>https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6566 <- buy a better pc?
12:54<LordAro>you could probably claim it's because basically all the graphics rendering is done by the cpu, rather than the gpu
12:54<LordAro>offloading more of that would probably improve things, but it would be hard
12:58<Wolf01>I had to rewrite my game to use directx in order to gain better performances, with CPU only I got 20fps
12:58<andythenorth>4K ? :P
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13:03<Wolf01>https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6567 :D
13:05<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: does your camera movement work now?
13:07<Wolf01>Nah, I didn't touch it since yesterday
13:07<Wolf01>Maybe later I'll try again
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13:11<eekee>added higher-capacity trams with fast loading, and now my cargodist routes are fine :)
13:15<andythenorth>this is an arch example of ‘jumped the shark’ https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5890
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13:19<eekee>lol yeah
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but i agree with both of the ideas (separately)
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>autosave-while-paused
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>and ingame clock (if playing fullscreen)
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>are both extremely useful things
13:19<andythenorth>I have closed in-game clock
13:19<andythenorth>it’s nonsense
13:20<eekee>wall clocks exist
13:20<Eddi|zuHause>every game should have an ingame clock
13:21<eekee>second life's ingame clock didn't do me any good ^.^
13:23<andythenorth>every browser should have an email client :P
13:24<LordAro>every emacs should have a text editor
13:31<Wolf01><Eddi|zuHause> every game should have an ingame clock <- I solved this with a Logitech G510
13:32<Eddi|zuHause>LordAro: coffeemacs?
13:34<Wolf01>I even thought to add a patch to support it's display on OTTD to show some info, like a subsidy browser, last warnings
13:35<Wolf01>BTW, ice cream, BBL
13:35<Eddi|zuHause>well, i play openttd in windowed mode, so i have the taskbar with clock
13:35<Eddi|zuHause>but other games...
13:44<andythenorth>this? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5573
13:46<@Alberth>he has somewhat of a point, not sure it should be fixed though
13:47<@Alberth>you can add an option 'send to depot for selling' or so
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13:47<@Alberth>or only change engine when leaving the depot perhaps
13:48<andythenorth>consist templates :P
13:48<andythenorth>we could (1) add yet another ‘send all in order group’ command (to sell them)
13:48<+glx>looks like andythenorth is trying to clean FS :)
13:49<andythenorth>(2) have template consists where all in current group are assigned an empty template
13:49<andythenorth>glx: I’m seeing how far I can go before someone yells at me :)
13:49<andythenorth>I got rid of ~40 tickets last week
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14:07<Eddi|zuHause>might be too narrow of a use case
14:08<Eddi|zuHause>or maybe a human wants to play the game rondje-style
14:08<Eddi|zuHause>you set up a train with "go to A" "go to B" "sell at depot", and then you just clone that train over and over
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14:11<@Alberth>all this useless double track building :p
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>well, the chinese did that for a while with shipping containers
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>was way cheaper to build new containers in china than ship them back from europe
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14:19<__ln___>http://i.imgur.com/xPgdmch.png
14:19<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: did they also build new ships?
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>i wouldn't put it past them :p
14:25<andythenorth>this would mean keeping the industries in the map? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5290
14:26<frosch123>andythenorth: it's called message historyx
14:26*andythenorth notes that
14:27<frosch123>if anyone would care, someone would have added filters to the message history window :)
14:27<andythenorth>probably the list should have also popup message notifying that the industry has been addded to the closed list
14:27<andythenorth>in case the player missed it
14:27<andythenorth>Because “quite often, the industry is closed without noticing by the player."
14:27<andythenorth>so that probably needs a message
14:28<andythenorth>in case you missed the message
14:28<andythenorth>and a log saying there was a message about the message
14:28<andythenorth>so you can check if you missed any messages about messages about messages about closure
14:28<andythenorth>how do some of these people human?
14:28<frosch123>you can likely write a gamescript which reminds you about missed messages
14:29<andythenorth>in my day job I get actual feature requests about actual shit things we’ve sold to people :P
14:29<andythenorth>not some of this crap :D
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14:51<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> Because “quite often, the industry is closed without noticing by the player." <-- that's usually because of ticker messages, which stupidly prevent real messages from popping up
14:52<andythenorth>is that a bug? o_O
14:52<Eddi|zuHause>no, a misfeature of the original game
14:55<andythenorth>quite neat this one https://bugs.openttd.org/task/385
14:55<andythenorth>2006 eh?
14:55*andythenorth likes it
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: anyway, the problem is that ticker messages take a while to scroll through, so when you have lots of them, some messages time out, which could have been real messages
15:02<Eddi|zuHause>(btw, did anyone ever look up whether the ticker sound is a real message, and what it says?)
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15:27<Wolf01>Back
15:32<@peter1138>tons of pm request spam ;(
15:33<andythenorth>blame andythenorth
15:48<@peter1138>yes
15:52<andythenorth>I could just close more, avoiding some of the bureaucracy
15:58<Wolf01>https://9gag.com/gag/aZg7DQ6 heh
16:03<andythenorth>how would random orders work in multiplayer?
16:03<andythenorth>would it be handled in game state somehow? o_O
16:04<Wolf01>Seed
16:11<andythenorth>Wolf01: so currently there is _no_ Lego Technic I want to buy :)
16:11<andythenorth>first time in years
16:12<Wolf01>I want to buy the current ones anyway... no money
16:12<andythenorth>Fire Truck...nah
16:12<andythenorth>purple thing…maybe, but it’s really big and takers up a lot of space
16:12<andythenorth>blue Tow truck - no way, seriously over-priced
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16:30<Wolf01>https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/awQogVW_460sv.mp4 V453000, you know where is this?
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16:30<V453000>I haven't been there but yes
16:31<Wolf01>Well.. where?
16:32<andythenorth>such bed
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16:43<V453000>it's somewhere in Prague :)
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16:53<Wolf01>Thank you, I already knew that, that's why I asked you and not andy :D
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17:03<V453000>Thank you for your question.
17:03<V453000>XD
17:07<Wolf01>Could it be in Wenceslas platz?
17:07<Wolf01>A couple of friends want to go there :P
17:07<V453000>yep
17:07<V453000>Vytpona
17:07<V453000>Vytopna
17:07<V453000>https://www.google.cz/maps/uv?hl=en&pb=!1s0x470b94929ef88247:0x95f8da59d136d8bc!2m22!2m2!1i80!2i80!3m1!2i20!16m16!1b1!2m2!1m1!1e1!2m2!1m1!1e3!2m2!1m1!1e5!2m2!1m1!1e4!2m2!1m1!1e6!3m1!7e115!4s/maps/place/prague%2Bpub%2Bwith%2Btrain/@50.0803286,14.4283843,3a,75y,135.14h,90t/data%3D*213m4*211e1*213m2*211s7JbJQdLOTa4AAAQfCM98eQ*212e0*214m2*213m1*211s0x470b94929ef88247:0x95f8da59d136d8bc!5sprague+pub+with+train+-+Google+Search&imagekey=!1e2!2s7JbJ
17:07<Wolf01>Good
17:10<V453000>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8542/BRIX-test-4.png big file
17:10<V453000>alone the land is boring
17:10<V453000>but with things it's very nice I believe
17:11<frosch123>Wolf01: that's at the main tourist street
17:11<frosch123>no surprise V hasn't been there :)
17:11<frosch123>lots of loud gemans there
17:11<V453000>I go there quite often actually
17:13<frosch123>2001 i was in a marmor pizza place in that area
17:13<frosch123>everyone in my class thought it was run by the mafia
17:13<Wolf01>I might go there too if my friends decide they really want to
17:13<frosch123>s/marmor/marble/
17:15<Wolf01>V: that's very good, I like the signals too
17:15<V453000>:)
17:16<V453000>and I discovered one big advantage of gray terrain
17:16<V453000>it doesn't collide with 8bpp colours at all
17:16<V453000>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8543/BRIX-test-5.png
17:16<Wolf01>Also the triangular ones are easy to identify
17:16<frosch123>there are 16 8bpp grey scale colors
17:17<V453000>sure
17:17<frosch123>is it noticeable if the terrain is converted to 8bpp? :p
17:17<V453000>it probably would be
17:17<V453000>I'll try again when I get my conversion script to work properly :P
17:17<frosch123>the trees are new?
17:17<frosch123>i remember icosahedron and stuff
17:18<V453000>they are inconsistent but they aren't new
17:18<V453000>icosahedron or whatever is still there at bottom right
17:20<frosch123>i never notices that ottd puts so many trees of same type next to each other
17:20<frosch123>it's way more visible with the distinct colored trees
17:21<V453000>well the original trees are much larger so they aren't visible as a whole, lets you see individuals less and they are more likely to blend together as a kind of texture mass
17:21<V453000>the colours are also quite various in the original graphics
17:21<V453000>here it's mainly the overall style of the trees being so wildly different
17:22<V453000>I think everything will be more geometric in the next iteration
17:22<V453000>all of the 'natural' ones will go to hell
17:23<frosch123>he, all those geometric shapes appear in nature :p
17:23<V453000>lawyered
17:24<Wolf01><frosch123> i never notices that ottd puts so many trees of same type next to each other <- I'm the only one which thinks it's not enough? :D
17:30<frosch123>if you want to make it more lively, add a double-helix tree
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17:34<Wolf01>Also cauliflower fractals :P
17:35<Wolf01>https://img.wonderhowto.com/img/60/48/63560999541029/0/cauliflower-is-fractal-ly-delicious.w1456.jpg
17:36<frosch123>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagoras_tree_(fractal) <- also works somewhat in 3d, but there it intersects with itself
17:39<V453000>he
17:39<V453000>well I fuck off :P
17:39<frosch123>http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/pytha.png <- i did it in povray in my youth
17:39<V453000>too realistic
17:39<V453000>gnight ;P
17:39<frosch123>:p
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17:40<Eddi|zuHause>it looks weird this asymmetric
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17:51<frosch123>hmm, shops are closed tomorrow
17:51<frosch123>buying new dishes/stuff is no option, i guess i will have to clean them
17:51<Eddi|zuHause>that tends to happen on sundays
17:56<Wolf01>So shops close on sunday in Germany?
17:56<frosch123>you can sell travel supplies in train stations
17:56<frosch123>like potatoes
17:57<frosch123>and washing machines
17:59<Eddi|zuHause>train stations or fuel stations can stay open, and cities are allowed to open a few sundays each year (usually in december)
18:00<Wolf01>What idyllic place :)
18:01<Wolf01>Here you can close at sunday and holidays, but like max 5 days
18:01<Eddi|zuHause>just a few decades ago shops weren't even allowed open in the evening
18:02<Eddi|zuHause>shops had to close at 17:00, and thursdays 18:30
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18:04<Eddi|zuHause>they relaxed that rule to 22:00, and meanwhile you see ocasional exceptions for 24h shops (except sundays)
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>so they're open like monday 6:00 to saturday 22:00 or so
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19:05<Wolf01>'night
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