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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-08-14

---Logopened Mon Aug 14 00:00:12 2017
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02:18<V453000>the piece of shit dropbox disabled public links even for paying users!
02:18<V453000>that's fucking disgusting
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02:35<@peter1138>welcome to the cloud - "somebody else's computer"
02:40<V453000>well if the service is free I expect anything
02:41<V453000>if it's paid, changing the terms and removing important features is just not nice to say the least
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02:54<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: well, you're free to cancel the service
02:57<V453000>obviously
02:58<V453000>with 1 year pre-paid plan
03:00<Eddi|zuHause>with changes to terms of service you have a special cancel option, even if they don't tell you that
03:02<V453000>well let's see
03:03<V453000>regardless, fuck them is the final outcome of this anyway
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06:32<Thanark_>do I need to set my trains to do something to upgrade them? I selected them to replace just like I did last upgrade but this time nothing is replacing. even fast forwarded months
06:43<Thanark_>figured it out. need to change over to electric railways to build the electric trains
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06:54<Wolf01>Moin
06:57<Wolf01>Woke up and read this: https://translate.google.it/translate?sl=it&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=it&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.corriere.it%2Feconomia%2F17_agosto_11%2Fritorno-dell-apprendista-piu-27percento-confronto-agevolazioni-le-assunzioni-giovani-b8ff445c-7ed0-11e7-9e20-fd5bf758afd2.shtml%3Fcmpid%3DPA178012501DCOR&edit-text=&act=url ... I've already got enough for today and want to sleep again
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06:57<andythenorth>https://twitter.com/VoxelTycoon
06:57<Wolf01>Yes
06:59<andythenorth>V453000: ^
06:59<andythenorth>there’s an SDK http://voxeltycoon.xyz/sdk
07:00<V453000>voxel hate still happening
07:00<V453000>sorry :>
07:01<andythenorth>all that is needed is to make voxels look like this https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=blocky+roads&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiEueqfydbVAhVCKsAKHasXB2IQ_AUICygC&biw=1229&bih=781#imgrc=1IvUCC_YeDFWaM:
07:01<andythenorth>which is clone of minecraft style
07:01<andythenorth>which is clone of OpenTTD style crossed with Doom
07:02<andythenorth>so we’re back at Simon Foster and the ID guys just invented everything worth having
07:02<andythenorth>and that is all
07:02<V453000>haha yes
07:02<andythenorth>if I wasn’t busy I’d solve it :P
07:02<V453000>I just really hate that everyone feels like it's easy to make voxels and minecraft does it so let's all do it
07:02<andythenorth>not easy
07:02<andythenorth>like pixels not easy
07:03<V453000>it's not easy to do it right
07:03<V453000>it's easy to make something shitty with it
07:03<andythenorth>such crappy
07:03*andythenorth back to work
07:03<andythenorth>fixing your democracy
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07:09<@peter1138>but voxeltycoon looks ok
07:10<@peter1138>slopes would be nicer than just cobes though
07:24<Wolf01>I want to shit my lifey fix... I mean, I want to fix my shitty life
07:29<__ln___>Wolf01: sure, some day i will visit venice. i've already been to venice beach, california; does that count?
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07:29<Wolf01>I don't think so :P
07:32<__ln___>what about the Venetian casino in las vegas? been there too.
07:41<Wolf01>It's like going to disneyland :P
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09:34<supermop>yo
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10:26<@Alberth>o/
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10:28<Wolf01>o/
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11:19<crem>\o
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12:21<Wolf01>It took me the entire afternoon to clearly understand the adapter pattern... I'm becoming more stupid every day
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12:51<andythenorth>isn’t it?
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13:00<@Alberth>o/
13:03<andythenorth>hi
13:12<LordAro>it is
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13:13<@Alberth>o/
13:14<Zuu>Hello
13:16<@planetmaker>\o
13:22<andythenorth>bbls
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14:07<V453000>how does roadhog save 8bpp? Something in python has to check the palette, right?
14:07<V453000>andythenorth:
14:07<V453000>oh he no here
14:08<frosch123>you mean pixa?
14:09<V453000>there seems to be some putpalette thing
14:09<V453000>yeah in pixa :)
14:14<Wolf01>Quak
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14:30<andythenorth>so eh
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14:32<andythenorth>so how did it used to work?
14:32<andythenorth>I only started playing around 0.6 or so
14:32<andythenorth>and not much in irc until maybe 0.7
14:33*andythenorth hasn’t actually checked versions
14:33<andythenorth>there were just more people?
14:33<andythenorth>or bigger gaps?
14:33<andythenorth>less intertia?
14:33<andythenorth>lower standards?
14:36<V453000>everything going to shit?
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14:39<andythenorth>everything
14:43<frosch123>in 2007 it would have been easy to just dump everything on github
14:43<frosch123>no bananas and stuff
14:43<andythenorth>o_O
14:44<frosch123>the discussion topic have not really changed since then
14:44<frosch123>that's why the suggestion forum is so boring
14:44<frosch123>just the easy things got done
14:44<andythenorth>we mostly don’t need suggestions imho
14:44<frosch123>and some easy things made other things harder
14:45<andythenorth>classic
14:45<andythenorth>what are the strongest examples of that?
14:45<frosch123>well, some things which were hard back then, would be easier today
14:45<frosch123>like order lists got rewritten like twice?
14:46<frosch123>if we had todays order lists in 2007, we would never got the weird group gui
14:46<andythenorth>the state is remarkably similar to the big commercial app that is the main product my business sells
14:47<andythenorth>round about 2008 we made some architectural decisions which hurt now and make development sometimes glacial
14:47<andythenorth>other things move because we have paying customers :)
14:47<andythenorth>but we are totally blocked in some areas by our choice of user+groups implementation
14:48<andythenorth>other things are slow because we have >5k admin users who are used to things working a certain way
14:48<frosch123>i have it easier at work :) the stuff i work on is mostly based on science and math
14:48<frosch123>so there is a definite right thing to do
14:49<frosch123>if you need to you can dump a subcomponent and rewrite it
14:49<frosch123>you do not need to worry about breaking some esoteric use-case of some users, there is a correct thing to do
14:49<andythenorth>we have that
14:50<andythenorth>and old browsers
14:50<andythenorth>and the need to preserve absolute integrity of data, and all savegames
14:50<andythenorth>‘savegames’ is perhaps misleading, it’s not games :)
14:50<andythenorth>our customers can end up in court if we make mistakes, or break content
14:51<andythenorth>so innovating is challenging :)
14:51<andythenorth>meanwhile, how about we ask Kamnet to do release announcements? o_O
14:51<frosch123>he wanted to do that two years ago :)
14:52<andythenorth>too busy?
14:52<frosch123>i think he also has twitter access
14:52<andythenorth>is anyone actually in charge here these days? o_O
14:52<andythenorth>or is it some kind of whuffie collective?
14:53<andythenorth>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whuffie
14:53<+michi_cc>andythenorth: Going by chat lines I would guess you :p
14:53<andythenorth>absolutely not
14:53<andythenorth>I would be the worst BDFL ever
14:53<andythenorth>but I would be quite happy to go around FS etc saying ‘no’ to things
14:54<andythenorth>I think the current goals are pretty clear and solid https://wiki.openttd.org/FAQ_development#What_are_the_goals_of_the_offical_branch.3F
14:54<frosch123>andythenorth: for a start, there is noone to maintain the compile farm
14:54<frosch123>i keeps on building binaries for deprecated distributions
14:55<andythenorth>we have quite a lot of various web infrastructure eh?
14:55<andythenorth>for a small group
14:55<frosch123>it wasn't that small in the past
14:56<frosch123>i think in 2008 there were > 10 active developers
14:56<frosch123>most of them students
14:56<andythenorth>classic
14:56<Shoshonite>and now?
14:56<andythenorth>oh we talked about this before
14:56<andythenorth>Shoshonite: ~1
14:56<Wolf01><Shoshonite> and now? <- I can count them in one hand
14:57<frosch123>Shoshonite: i think lordaro may be the only student in this channel who can code
14:57<andythenorth>either they are doing other projects, or GFC drove them away from open source
14:57<andythenorth>or we caught a wave who could remember original TTD from 1994
14:57<@Alberth>except no longer student :p
14:58<Shoshonite>the implication being non-students have no time to code? I know I don't, or ability for that matter
14:59*andythenorth wonders if the students also are working more now
14:59<andythenorth>dunno
14:59<andythenorth>I was looking at this today https://docs.plone.org/4/en/develop/plone-coredev/agreement.html
14:59<andythenorth>“Patches: Historically we encouraged people to submit patches to the ticket collector. These tickets are usually ignored forever. "
14:59<frosch123>Shoshonite: i started on ottd because i couldn't stand working all day on my thesis
14:59<Wolf01>In Italy sure they are working more... evil students stealing my job
14:59<andythenorth>sounds like familiar territory ^^ :D
14:59<frosch123>so, thesis in the morning, ottd in the afternoon, irc in the evening
15:00<frosch123>oh yeah, i were coding off-line and only came for patch review :o
15:00<andythenorth>probably quite a focussed way to do it eh
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15:01<andythenorth>Plone added a lot of bureacracy for improvements https://docs.plone.org/4/en/develop/plone-coredev/plips.html
15:01<frosch123>after that i think i had a pretty constant though possibly low commit rate, until factorio appeared :p
15:01<andythenorth>but then people rely on it to make money
15:02<andythenorth>also frosch123 you added ~all the newgrf features I wanted :P
15:02<andythenorth>there’s few ponies left
15:02<Wolf01>Like NRT
15:02<andythenorth>NRT is more than a pony :)
15:02<andythenorth>NRT is a test of how we can change a core game mechanic :)
15:02<Wolf01>Yeah, that's in andy's patchpack
15:02<andythenorth>will we win, or will we fuck up>?
15:03<frosch123>i always liked patchpacks
15:03<Wolf01>It doesn't change anything that hasn't been changed before with railtypes
15:03<andythenorth>I wondered about encouraging a fork or something
15:03<frosch123>15 years ago i played a lot with povray
15:03<andythenorth>but then….fragmentation
15:03<frosch123>there was this inofficial version "megapov"
15:03<frosch123>which had all kind of weird features. forums talked a lot about them
15:04<frosch123>me and my friend always wondered why they did not make it into the main povray
15:04<frosch123>until we actually tried them out
15:04<frosch123>wow, did they have lots of corner cases and downsided...
15:05<andythenorth>the Bootstrap CSS framework has a really strong approach on contributions
15:05<andythenorth>https://github.com/twbs/bootstrap/issues/11292
15:05<andythenorth>(and a few comments down mdo comments again)
15:07<andythenorth>“We don't aim to solve every problem—doing so would just add bloat to the framework for tons of other folks. I'm generally super hesitant to add anything these days only because there is already so much here.
15:07<andythenorth>These kind of extensions are great add-ons to put in another repo on GitHub. Tell folks about, get feedback, gauge usage, and extend Bootstrap. We love that stuff.”
15:08<frosch123>yep, my opinion on ottd is pretty much: the main branch is only for add-on apis
15:08<frosch123>except that we have noone interested in ai and gs stuff :p
15:09<andythenorth>if I _did_ do a patch pack, it would be a fork-and-dump
15:09<andythenorth>I’d delete a bunch of things :P
15:09<andythenorth>not going to find many internet fans with that approach
15:09*andythenorth also has small problem of not being actual programmer
15:10<@peter1138>hi
15:10<frosch123>oh, there were teenagers on the forums in the past: they claimed to first delete all of newgrf
15:10<andythenorth>? o_O
15:10<frosch123>well, just the type of teenager who annuonce their big plans before coding one line
15:10<andythenorth>ha
15:11<frosch123>nothing wrong with that, just teenager stuff
15:11<andythenorth>been there, done that
15:11<andythenorth>lo peter1138
15:12<milek7>gs api is too limited for any bigger modifications
15:13<andythenorth>well then it’s c++, easy no :)
15:14<frosch123>ottd does not have that engine <-> mod separation as modern games have
15:14<frosch123>in modern games the main game itself is implemented with the same interfaces as for the mods
15:15<frosch123>in ottd stuff has always been asymmetric: there is a base game in c++, and gs/ai/newgrf which modify that stuff in a completely different way
15:15<andythenorth>eh well, migrating OpenTTD to that model would be....interesting
15:15<andythenorth>also...challenging
15:15<frosch123>which makes the add-ons very hard if they work against the c++ base
15:15*andythenorth doesn’t play games
15:16<andythenorth>how do games ensure MP safety with mods?
15:16<frosch123>they don't :p
15:16<andythenorth>also, based on my limited exposure to minecraft mods, they are broadly buggy as
15:16<frosch123>factorio has a special section for desyncs with mods
15:16<frosch123>*bug tracker section
15:16<andythenorth>right
15:17<andythenorth>hmm
15:17<frosch123>other complex games like europa universalis 4 desync all the time
15:19<frosch123>you can even tell by how the gui behaves in single player what is likely to cause desyncs
15:19<frosch123>like there were exploits where you can do stuff by using a fast-clicker, which you were not allowed otherwise
15:19<andythenorth>ok so seems there’s no obvious winning strategy here
15:19<andythenorth>we found one winning strategy in my day job
15:19<andythenorth>- make it as fast as possible to get new developers productive
15:19<andythenorth>we focussed a lot of effort on that
15:19<andythenorth>still haven’t won it
15:19<frosch123>like: normally you are only allowed to press a button once, and then it is disabled for 5 minutes. if you could click fast enough (with an autoclicker) you could click it mutliple times and get multiple time the effect, before it disabled the button
15:20<milek7>andythenorth: well, patching is much easier than working around limitations in gs api
15:21<milek7>but then users cannot just download gs from bananas
15:22<@Alberth>patching should extend gs api, in that case,imho
15:22<frosch123>Alberth: that only works if you do not fight ottd's core mechanics
15:23<@Alberth>and you don't have that in c++ ?
15:23<frosch123>most gs want to remove city and station rating, which is just a very core mechanic of ottd
15:24<andythenorth>most GS seem pretty uninspired
15:24<@Alberth>there isn't much power in gs, like milek says
15:25<@Alberth>pretty much NoAI + some extensions
15:25*andythenorth can’t tell if we have a social problem, or an architecture problem :)
15:26<andythenorth>but there are 147 patches in FS
15:26<andythenorth>https://bugs.openttd.org/index.php?string=&project=1&search_name=&type%5B%5D=4&sev%5B%5D=&pri%5B%5D=&due%5B%5D=&reported%5B%5D=&cat%5B%5D=&status%5B%5D=open&percent%5B%5D=&opened=&dev=&closed=&duedatefrom=&duedateto=&changedfrom=&changedto=&openedfrom=&openedto=&closedfrom=&closedto=&do=index
15:26<andythenorth>I am pretty happy just closing feature requests, especially if they conflict with published goals
15:26<andythenorth>closing patches…dunno
15:26<_dp_>town growth is pretty much the only "something else" in GS
15:27<andythenorth>well there’s no control over industry
15:27<andythenorth>or vehicles
15:27<_dp_>that's probably why there are 10 cb GS and nearly nothing more
15:27<andythenorth>so eh
15:27<frosch123>andythenorth: did you play and of the cb gs? :p
15:28<@Alberth>146 :p
15:28<frosch123>i only played ncg and sv. all cb gs appeared incredible boring, just like the competitive servers
15:28<frosch123>andythenorth: so yeah, it's a social problem
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15:31<_dp_>frosch123, boring? why?
15:31<_dp_>when I'm playing cb it's very intense
15:32<frosch123>well, i said multiple times. there multiple interest groups around ottd. the competitive guys are those i understand the least :)
15:32<_dp_>xD
15:33<andythenorth>frosch123: I tried city-builders a couple of times, but boring as all hell
15:33<frosch123>andythenorth: gs feature requests are dominated by competitive players and citybuilders :)
15:34<andythenorth>timetable feature requests are dominated by people making model train sets
15:34<frosch123>the patches are as boring as the gameplay they are intended for
15:34<_dp_>frosch123, ofc they are, you can't just go with a suggestions gs like BB on a competitive server
15:35<_dp_>it needs to have some influence over the gameplay
15:35<frosch123>why don't you just play starcraft :p
15:35<andythenorth>only 145 patches left :)
15:35<_dp_>are there trains in starcraft?)
15:36<_dp_>i like trains :p
15:36<andythenorth>_dp_ I don’t think it’s an argument that cb shouldn’t exist :)
15:37<frosch123>factorio doesn't have competitive multiplayer
15:37<frosch123>instead they go for competitive speedruns
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15:37<Wolf01>It does, you can organize players in forces
15:37<andythenorth>a lot of the MP stuff in FS I feel really lost with :)
15:37<andythenorth>I just don’t know enough
15:37<Wolf01>Turrets attack other forces
15:37<frosch123>which looks insane if you see it first. but would be incredible boring to me
15:37<_dp_>competitive openttd isn't that much different from a speedrun
15:38<frosch123>_dp_: do compeitive ottd players repeat building the same network on the same map
15:38<frosch123>just trying to beat the previous time?
15:38<Wolf01>OTTD is a speedrun anyway
15:38<andythenorth>speedrun = Doom for me
15:38<andythenorth>what’s a speedrun in OTTD context? o_O :P
15:38<_dp_>frosch123, not exactly the same but overall strategy is so refined that it usually stays the same
15:38<_dp_>what to transport, when and on what distance
15:39<@peter1138>and i just build stuff while trying to make it look nice :p
15:39<andythenorth>+1
15:39<frosch123>well, factorio speed runs are about palying the exact same map, and memorizing the building plan of two hours
15:39<frosch123>and not mess up by putting something off by one tile
15:39<andythenorth>in fact, I make things look ugly just to troll coop
15:40<frosch123>andythenorth: i guess speed runs in ottd fail because the player actions affect the random seed and then change the game progression
15:40<_dp_>frosch123, I though about letting players replay same maps in openttd, but it's not that important since map doesn't matter much
15:40<andythenorth>actually my 7 year old has asked us to put the game seed back in map gen window :P
15:40<andythenorth>he seems to have learnt about seeds from minecraft or something
15:40<frosch123>but if you disable all random production changes and industry spanws, you can make a ottd speed run by playing a fixed map and trying to reach 1M pounds in the fastest time
15:41<V453000>do you even automate
15:41<frosch123>people will try to figure out the best order in which to build routes and repeat that over again
15:41<frosch123>V453000: can you imagine building the exact same factorio factory twice?
15:42<andythenorth>what if…?
15:42<andythenorth>1. ...what if we moved it all to github and pull requests?
15:42<andythenorth>2. ….what if we just rejected all patches not touched for 12 months?
15:42<_dp_>frosch123, don't think production is enough, there is way too much random in openttd
15:42<frosch123>andythenorth: you can use the seed on the console
15:42<andythenorth>frosch123: saw that in a FS today :)
15:43<V453000>yeah speedrunners do it, now they even gave it a cherry on top by literally blueprinting the whole factory in 1 blueprint and slapping it down at the beginning ... then it's just like a colouring book
15:43<andythenorth>https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6604
15:43<@Alberth>vs2012 still a relevant thing?
15:43<andythenorth>deprecate old crap :P
15:44<frosch123>V453000: oh, that sounds like there should be a group talking about the good old times where you had to remember the layout
15:44<V453000>eh not entirely, both approaches are quite dumb
15:44<frosch123>Alberth: no idea what the compile farm runs
15:44<V453000>but the newer just makes sure it's dumb
15:44<frosch123>could be 2012
15:45<@Alberth>ok
15:45<_dp_>btw, there is actially a bit of an issue with cb in openttd that town growth is so random that you get about +-10% population for the same growth speed even with a good layouts
15:45<andythenorth>one goal I would change, if I was BDFL https://wiki.openttd.org/Objectives
15:45<V453000>I don't really see why would you even try to build the factory youself, you can just make a script which does it for you, and just invent the strategy for the script
15:45<andythenorth>addendum to support for minor platforms: not for dead ones
15:46<andythenorth>I know it’s economically discriminatory
15:46*andythenorth checks his privilege
15:46<frosch123>V453000: i like the coloring-book analogy
15:46<andythenorth>is it mindfulness colouring?
15:47<V453000>yeah, no
15:48<V453000>of course you have to think about some stuff like do I have XY yet, but yeah
15:48<V453000>still there is something to the execution, like if you get the 4th mining drill before or after 19479th transport belt, but ...
15:48<V453000>iterating it with AI would be so much simpler and better result
15:48<andythenorth>this is the most bonkers FS I left open https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5147
15:49<V453000>if computers can do something better then they should do it
15:49<andythenorth>does it have the record for comment counts?
15:49<milek7>some time ago i made "city-network builder" gs
15:49<milek7>which tried to compute town growth on basis of metric estimating how well-connected it is with other towns
15:49<andythenorth>neat ikdea
15:49<Wolf01>https://wiki.openttd.org/FAQ_development#What_are_the_goals_of_the_offical_branch.3F <- we already fucked up on this one
15:49<andythenorth>-k
15:49<andythenorth>Wolf01: ?
15:50<Wolf01>In contrast, extending or altering the gameplay of the base game is not encouraged.
15:51<frosch123>Wolf01: i wrote that only this year, so it's mostly my opinion. but noone complained when i posted it here
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15:52<andythenorth>it’s pretty sound imho
15:52<@Alberth>there are a few nice patches in there
15:53<andythenorth>quite a few seemed like they met the goals
15:54<andythenorth>dunno if the patches are crap or not though
15:54<_dp_>then why do even need a clone of a game? if you want a base game play a base game
15:54<andythenorth>no newgrf in base game :D
15:55<andythenorth>tbf, many other things missing too :)
15:55<frosch123>the original game was already unplayable when i tried last in 2010(?)
15:55<V453000>one thing I saw on novapolis or where ever that was really nice were the extra tile highlights like for station catchment areas etc
15:55<LordAro>frosch123: i am no longer a student :)
15:55<frosch123>the interface did not stand the time
15:55<LordAro>graduated a month ago :)
15:55<_dp_>V453000, still in citymania client ;)
15:55<V453000>ye
15:55<frosch123>LordAro: nice :)
15:55<V453000>I probably saw it in both
15:56<frosch123>V453000: yes, they are on my todo list, but meh
15:56<andythenorth>I liked this one https://bugs.openttd.org/task/385
15:56<_dp_>they kinda poorly implemented though
15:56<frosch123>none of the patches convinced me, so i probably have to do it myself
15:56<V453000>:D
15:56<V453000>well
15:57<V453000>if someone gave me new brix sprites I probably wouldn't add them either
15:57<@Alberth>wait until you meet your future self :p
15:57<frosch123>he, yeah, that's the nice thing about decentral stuff :) just fork your own stuff
15:58<LordAro>andythenorth liked a bug report? :o
15:58<@Alberth>patch :)
15:58<andythenorth>if we closed all patch tickets that haven’t been edited for 5 years
15:58<andythenorth>62 would be gone
15:58*andythenorth is tempted
15:59<frosch123>andythenorth: i remember trolling the forums by telling them that voting on fs it to vote for closure
15:59<frosch123>s/closure/reject/
15:59<frosch123>andythenorth: some of them are in patchpacks
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16:00<andythenorth>if the patch queue was kept very small, there might be more fun in reviewing, because the game is to keep it small
16:00<andythenorth>also, on balance many people appreciate at least an answer even if it’s ‘no’
16:00<andythenorth>silence is demotivating
16:01<frosch123>well, most patches fail on basic stuff like indenting
16:01<frosch123>it''s hopeless to explain that to people
16:01<andythenorth>ach, I’m going to close 62
16:01<frosch123>when i reviewed a patch, it usually ended up with rewriting it
16:01<andythenorth>it can’t be worse than current
16:01<andythenorth>how much more offense can I cause?
16:02<andythenorth>and you can all blame me if kittens die :P
16:02<frosch123>would be interesting if cirdan complains :)
16:02<andythenorth>I’ll check them first in case I’m being really stupid
16:02<frosch123>they ignored my patch for 10 years and then closed it because of statistics
16:03<andythenorth>High sea level? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/983
16:03<Wolf01> <frosch123> it''s hopeless to explain that to people <- that's why IDEs should have a configurable code layout settings per project
16:04<frosch123>i doubt there will be a good solution to tsunami flooding
16:04<andythenorth>no mass closure option? :(
16:04<andythenorth>I don’t want to blame the technology
16:04<frosch123>Wolf01: people even fail with indenting when using ides which auto-indent
16:04<andythenorth>but FS is only slightly better than trac :P
16:04<frosch123>i don't know how, but i have seen it multiple times at work
16:04<andythenorth>which is the worst ticket system I ever used, including the one we wrote in house
16:05<frosch123>fs is better than those e-mail based systems like bugzilla
16:06<_dp_>frosch123, it's very easy to miss indentation when using tabs
16:06<_dp_>and openttd is like the only project I know that uses tabs
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16:06<milek7>tabs are only sane option
16:06<@Alberth>fix your editor to show tabs vs spaces, and trailing white-space
16:07<frosch123>i know, tabs are complicated
16:07<frosch123>spaces are easier to explain to people
16:08<frosch123>but in the end there is no point in argueing over "const int* a", "const int *a" and "int const *a"
16:08<frosch123>the consistency matters more than some correctness
16:10<andythenorth>incoming FS spam :P
16:11<milek7>with tabs everybody can have different tab length set in their editor
16:11<milek7>and with spaces this is impossible
16:11<frosch123>milek7: yes, but that assumes that people are smart enough to understand spaces vs tabs
16:11<frosch123>spaces are easier to teach to the average developer
16:12<_dp_>milek7, for that to work you should only have tab indents and never mix tab+spaces
16:12<_dp_>milek7, so no indent to brackets and such
16:12<Wolf01>milek7, and maybe breaking those wonderful ascii art comments to explain things in the code?
16:12<Wolf01>Also you may have a lot of mixed tabs+spaces
16:12<Wolf01>Best is use only spaces
16:12<@peter1138>tabs are literally designed for aligning...
16:13<milek7>_dp_: to indent to brackets you do tabs do indentation level, and then spaces to match with braces
16:13<_dp_>milek7, yeah, and if someone changes tab size it all falls apart
16:13<milek7>no
16:13<andythenorth>are we really having a tabs vs spaces debate? :o
16:13<@peter1138>yes
16:13<@peter1138>it's important
16:13<andythenorth>someone call the stereotype police :P
16:13<@peter1138>it's on the internet
16:13<andythenorth>python vs php vs perl next?
16:14<milek7>tab size only changes tabs, which should be used for identation level
16:14<frosch123>_dp_: tabs do indeed work when done correctly. but as is just being proven here. milek7 will need 4 hours to explain it to someone else
16:14<frosch123>all spaces, fixed indent is dead easy in comparison
16:15<_dp_>frosch123, milek7 for one indentation mb, but if there are nested ones no, or stuff like assigment aligning when it's more than one tab it breaks
16:16<andythenorth>ach
16:16<andythenorth>semaphore versus colour signals
16:16<andythenorth>that’s a feature that should have died :P
16:16<frosch123>i like the signal gui on fs, whcih adds a separate toggle for semaphore/light
16:17<frosch123>instead of two full rows
16:17<andythenorth>+1
16:17<_dp_>and I'd like a setting to completely remove semaphores from the game xD
16:17<Wolf01>I would have liked a feature which allowed to convert all the semaphores to light signals, maybe one for railtypes too, maybe even one which plays for me
16:17<LordAro>_dp_: tabs for indentation, spaces for alignment
16:17<LordAro>it's quite easy
16:18<andythenorth>Wolf01: there are (were) a few requests for mass converting semaphore -> light
16:18<andythenorth>maybe 3 or so
16:18<frosch123>LordAro: ottd failed at it :p
16:18<andythenorth>I rejected a bunch of them
16:18<andythenorth>frosch123: is this actually legit? About to close it… https://bugs.openttd.org/task/3044
16:19<andythenorth>also seems harmless and possibly even useful? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/3117
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16:20<_dp_>moar hotkeys!
16:21<_dp_>this one doesn't seem to be particularly useful though, there is hardly anyone to talk with on servers nowdays :/
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16:22<V453000>cats cats cats
16:24<andythenorth>brix brix brix
16:25<_dp_>funny thing is I'm a bit reluctant to add more hotkeys to citymania client nowdays simply because there are so freaking many of them already xD
16:25<_dp_>out of keys on keyboard :/
16:25<@peter1138>support joystick buttons
16:26<_dp_>yeah, would be awesome actually
16:26<frosch123>we need ribbons
16:26<_dp_>and dehardcode some keys
16:28<andythenorth>ribbons :D
16:28<V453000>andythenorth: if I understand correctly , the part of pixa which adds palette does a deepcopy of a sample PNG just for palette, and pastes it by putpalette to your desired PNG?
16:29<andythenorth>words
16:29<andythenorth>ach
16:29<V453000>anus
16:29<andythenorth>probably
16:29<andythenorth>deepcopy because sometimes PIL is changing stuff otherwise
16:29<andythenorth>because python
16:29<V453000>whatever I just do the same :)
16:29<andythenorth>I’d have to go read it :P
16:29<V453000>if it works, works
16:29*andythenorth is having fun closing tickets
16:30<V453000>I finally have everything solved, it outputs one big file as it should
16:30<V453000>just not paletted yet
16:31*andythenorth wishes timetables weren’t
16:31<andythenorth>they attract a particular level of detailed request
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16:36<V453000>hm
16:36<V453000>ValueError: illegal image mode
16:37<andythenorth>82 patches in FS :)
16:37<andythenorth>https://bugs.openttd.org/index.php?string=&project=1&search_name=&type%5B%5D=4&sev%5B%5D=&pri%5B%5D=&due%5B%5D=&reported%5B%5D=&cat%5B%5D=&status%5B%5D=open&percent%5B%5D=&opened=&dev=&closed=&duedatefrom=&duedateto=&changedfrom=&changedto=&openedfrom=&openedto=&closedfrom=&closedto=&do=index
16:37<andythenorth>I wonder how many could be closed as ‘basically, this is bollocks’ :)
16:39<Wolf01>I think you could spare time by wiping out the database and start fresh
16:40*_dp_ backups his patches
16:40<frosch123>then you would break my bookmarks
16:40<frosch123>which would destroy my dreams of ever making the list shorter
16:40<andythenorth>frosch123: we could write a FS clone that just does http redirects to something else :P
16:41<andythenorth>I have access to a python url redirection framework for that :P
16:41<frosch123>also, old fs tasks are actually useful
16:41<frosch123>sometimes you can only figure out the meaning of a commit by reading the linked fs task
16:41<andythenorth>there is that
16:41<andythenorth>also FS rewards masochism
16:42<andythenorth>it’s hard to use, so it’s like doing some kind of exercise :P
16:42<andythenorth>btw, it’s also broken :P
16:42<andythenorth>I can’t reopen any tasks :P
16:42<frosch123>did you crash it again?
16:42<andythenorth>yup
16:42<andythenorth>doesn’t like percentage complete being null
16:42<andythenorth>logs are probably showing my errors
16:46<Zuu>A patch I forgot that I have written shown up in my inbox :-)
16:46<andythenorth>I have given that experience to about 50 people tonight :)
16:46<Zuu>Ctrl+Tab focus cycling :-)
16:46<andythenorth>it’s like being Bad Santa
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16:47<andythenorth>https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5872 why?
16:47*Wolf01 is going to vent his frustrations on TF
16:48<Zuu>TF as in TransportFever?
16:48<Wolf01>Yes
16:49<Zuu>Oh.. I stopped playing it long ago. It was rewarding but frustrating. You had to learn what things to just accept and not try to fix.
16:49<_dp_>andythenorth, isn't it still playable while doing threaded autosave?
16:49<Zuu>The patches/updates made it less frustrating though compared to when it came out.
16:50<andythenorth>_dp_: dunno, test it? :)
16:50<andythenorth>and comment on the issue? o_O
16:50<_dp_>andythenorth, I don't even sp, no idea how autosave works :p
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16:52<V453000>well it's creative https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8550/BRIDGES_0000_8bpp_combined.png
16:52<andythenorth>so a patch needs to comply with:
16:52<andythenorth>- MP safety
16:52<andythenorth>- savegame safety
16:53<andythenorth>- code style
16:53<andythenorth>- performance
16:53<V453000>apparently pasting a RGBA image into a "L" image, whatever that is, does not give what I would expect :D got to handle it differently
16:53<andythenorth>- provide / not break APIs
16:53<andythenorth>- ‘is it a good idea'
16:54<andythenorth>and it need play-tested for bugs
16:54<frosch123>nah, the letter is not needed
16:54<frosch123>it has never worked
16:55<andythenorth>V453000: what are you trying to do? Apply the palette? o_O
16:55<V453000>I actually managed to apply it, that image is index and seems like it has the right palette from deepcopy
16:56<V453000>it's just that when I paste the image into the "L" image, I guess that's where colours go fucked
16:56<andythenorth>it will be getting palette translated somehow
16:56<V453000>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pweg4msy2
16:56<andythenorth>there’s always crap with this job
16:56<V453000>well yeah I guess that's what is happening
16:56<V453000>I'm thinking I can do it easier
16:57<V453000>and have the picture which goes into the combiner already be in index
16:57<V453000>I know the index when comparing it to the 32bpp after all
16:57<V453000>so it should be just slight tweak to the comparer function
16:58<V453000>and then paste has a masking option so I can just set which area to copy, which I know from the thread splitting parameters
16:59<andythenorth>V453000: I am too brain-fried tonight to look more :)
16:59<V453000>I -think- that it will work, I just need to do it
16:59<V453000>but brain is borkd too
16:59<V453000>probably good time to gtfo
17:00<V453000>did progress, main thing works
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17:05<V453000>._.
17:05<V453000>index 3 gives me alpha pink
17:05<V453000>index 1 too
17:05<V453000>index 128 seems to work
17:05<V453000>XD
17:06<V453000>maybe it's inverse
17:07<V453000>it isn't
17:07<V453000>hmmm
17:07<andythenorth>:)
17:07<andythenorth>should I close more FS? o_O
17:07<andythenorth>later it gets, worse my judgement :P
17:08<@peter1138>more whisky?
17:08<andythenorth>moar
17:09<andythenorth>just 80 patches to review now eh peter1138 :D
17:09<andythenorth>be done by Wednesday probs
17:09<_dp_>andythenorth, have you considered changing some bugs to confirmed instead? ;)
17:09<andythenorth>I did confirm one :P
17:09<Shoshonite>judgement? I had envissioned a wack-a-mole type secnario!
17:09<andythenorth>patch reviews
17:09-!-Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-162.A98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: night]
17:09<andythenorth>‘Closed: outdated against trunk'
17:10<andythenorth>‘Closed: doesn’t compile’
17:10<andythenorth>‘Closed: ignores basic coding style guidelines'
17:10<andythenorth>‘Closed: clown shoes'
17:10<andythenorth>:P
17:11<V453000>ok
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17:11<V453000>index 1-9 gives me pure pink
17:11<V453000>wtf. :D
17:11<andythenorth>your palette got sorted somewhere? o_O
17:11<_dp_>'Closed: doesn't have a patch'
17:11<_dp_>with this should be enough to close them all :p
17:11<V453000>I just and only deepcopy from my nuts image
17:11<V453000>and I set an index manually
17:12<V453000>no sorting
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17:12<V453000>currently just trying flat singlecolor images to see how indexes work
17:12<andythenorth>fuck me V453000 now I have to go read code :P
17:12<andythenorth>and I haven’t had ‘stay awake’ coffeee
17:12<V453000>index 0 works too ._.
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17:13<andythenorth>wtf
17:13<andythenorth>so I get a palette around here. http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/road-hog/repository/entry/src/graphics_processor/pipelines.py#L10
17:14<andythenorth>which is from this http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/road-hog/repository/entry/palette_key.png
17:14<andythenorth>which is itself auto-generated from a palette, but eh :P
17:14<andythenorth>clever that eh?
17:14<andythenorth>can’t fuck that one up
17:14<andythenorth>much
17:15<V453000>XD
17:15<V453000>I will try with this one but if it works in NUTS then wtf :)
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17:15<V453000>I wonder if some nuts pictures could have windows palette
17:15<V453000>but that sounds awfully unlikely
17:15<andythenorth>then what’s this http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/road-hog/repository/entry/src/graphics_processor/pipelines.py#L204
17:15<andythenorth>create an image with P
17:16<andythenorth>then put the palette in it
17:16<andythenorth>then paste stuff into it
17:16<V453000>yeah that's the same as what I do
17:16<V453000>pretty exactly
17:16<andythenorth>what’s that “L” thing?
17:16*andythenorth looks in PIL docs
17:16<V453000>some palette colour mode
17:17<V453000>like RGB, RGBA, P, there is L
17:17<V453000>what exactly idk
17:17<andythenorth>it’s luminance
17:17<Shoshonite>I take someone elses png and copy my stuff into it, saves learning, because that hurts
17:18<andythenorth>V453000: try P
17:18<V453000>yeah
17:18<Shoshonite>thats what you are talking about right?
17:18<andythenorth>and put the palette in before paste
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17:18<andythenorth>V453000: if you paste into image with wrong palette, your paste will get transposed
17:18<andythenorth>iirc
17:19<andythenorth>Shoshonite: not exactly
17:19<V453000>I'll just not paste RGBA, I will make a new "P" or "L" image from the comparer, I'm just wtf about why is grayscale fucked
17:20<V453000>tried to output all indexes with L https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8551/test-wtf.png
17:20<andythenorth>teeny tiny
17:20<V453000>trying P https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8552/BRIDGES_0000_8bpp_combined.png
17:21<V453000>now I need to try your palette file but this looks like something else is fucked
17:21<V453000>hm
17:21<andythenorth>are you pasting the alpha channel or something?
17:21<V453000>hm
17:21<V453000>not sure
17:21<V453000>I guess I do
17:22<V453000>but still, why would it replace blacks
17:22<andythenorth>err
17:22<andythenorth>L14 defines combined_image
17:22<andythenorth>but L18 will modify it
17:22<andythenorth>intended?
17:23<andythenorth>it’s an alpha composite I guess
17:23<V453000>yeah alpha pasting
17:23<V453000>just puts them together
17:24<andythenorth>what happens if you dump them to disk during each stage of the loop (with a different filename)
17:24<andythenorth>do they look right?
17:24<andythenorth>PIL is funny about reassigning an image sometimes
17:24<andythenorth>“probably fine”, but I’d check that with Image.show() if I was doing it here
17:24<V453000>should try
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17:25<V453000>regardless your palette fixes the beginning indexes
17:26<V453000>but as you say, the things get transposed
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17:27<V453000>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8553/BRIDGES_0000_8bpp_combined-at-least-correct-palette.png
17:27<andythenorth>yarp
17:29<V453000>image before putting palette and pasting looks right
17:29<V453000>guess I try pasting first and putting palette later, outputting after paste
17:30<V453000>ok
17:30<V453000>apparently the L is literally just luminance (duh), so it converts it to grayscale
17:31<V453000>or something like that
17:31<V453000>and then the palette somehow takes the brightness as index
17:31<V453000>I guess
17:31<V453000>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8554/BRIDGES_0000_8bpp_before_palette.png
17:33<andythenorth>just ship that
17:33<V453000>I will try to rewrite the comparer to output indexed pictures which I can just combine using a mask, it makes too much sense not to do it
17:33<V453000>haha
17:33<andythenorth>looks great in gray
17:35<V453000>well, investigation was interesting, progress was done, using correct palette from you helps a ton XD
17:35<V453000>thank you, such bed
17:37*andythenorth also
17:38<andythenorth>Shoshonite: palettes are pretty easy ;)
17:39<V453000>admittedly I did the same when I was doing NUTS
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17:39<V453000>was always more sure that it will work rather than applying the palette again for insecurity
17:39<V453000>also my NUTS files usually already include the swatches :)
17:39<V453000>nigth
17:39<V453000>night
17:39<V453000>gg
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19:33<Wolf01>Ha, I modded it too much, daylength x4 + realistic capacity + production x4 and now I have piles of shit everywhere
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19:47<Wolf01>'night
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