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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-08-17

---Logopened Thu Aug 17 00:00:16 2017
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04:00<andythenorth>what’s the grey dot per-group in group window supposed to show?
04:03<andythenorth>wiki says it will show profit / loss
04:03<andythenorth>mine doesn’
04:03<andythenorth>t
04:12<LordAro>vehicles are too new
04:12<LordAro>profit/loss compared to the previous year, iirc
04:21<andythenorth>ta
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04:33<@planetmaker>^^
04:36<Flygon>http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/roundabout-of-death-gets-100000-to-plan-a-safety-upgrade-20170816-gxxtbj.html For those that were here for that roundabout discussion about a week ago. :P
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04:44<Wolf01>Moin
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04:47<crem>\o
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04:53<_dp_>https://xkcd.com/253/
04:54<crem>Surely inspired by ttd.
04:55<crem>Roundabouts where you need to turn more than 360 degrees are not that rare though. :) Let me find an example.
04:58<crem>https://goo.gl/maps/yeetSEfTucQ2 to turn from Schwyzerstrasse to Glarnerstrasse you have to turn more than 360 degrees.
05:03<Wolf01>There's no sign which forces you to do that
05:07<crem>true, but for medium and large cars it's pretty hard to do otherwise. Motorbikes can surely save some mileage though.
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05:09<_dp_>there are plenty of roundabouts where you need to do few cycles to figure out where the heck you need to exit it
05:10<Wolf01>https://goo.gl/maps/VuK6WA1avJ22 like this one I linked some days ago
05:11<andythenorth>if I ruled the world
05:12<andythenorth>- accept savegame breakage, against strict rules for when it’s accepted
05:13<andythenorth>- reduce multiple implementations of same affordance by deleting some (e.g. two vehicle list windows, three pathfinders etc)
05:13<andythenorth>- encourage patchpacks, including using the OpenTTD compile farm, as per NRT
05:14<andythenorth>- grind through many many UI tweaks, improvements, things that suck
05:14<andythenorth>- recruit new developers with commit rights by watching who has proven themselves in patchpacks
05:15<andythenorth>- continue extending newgrf, GS, AI
05:15<andythenorth>- build a functional testing suite
05:16<andythenorth>- set out strong policy on suggestions, patches, contributions, so that expectations are fair and motivation of contributors isn’t destroyed
05:16<andythenorth>[ends]
05:20<Wolf01><andythenorth> - encourage patchpacks, including using the OpenTTD compile farm, as per NRT <- this is one of the main points, what would happen if the current maintainer of the compile farm leaves?
05:23<andythenorth>who is the current maintainer? o_O
05:26<Wolf01>The one you contacted to get NRT into compile farm?
05:26<@peter1138>hi
05:26<Wolf01>Moo?
05:26<@peter1138>is nrt done?
05:27<Wolf01>Yes, but no
05:27<@peter1138>is it working?
05:27<@peter1138>main functionality wise
05:27<Wolf01>For some values of working, yes
05:27<@planetmaker>I would recon TB, RB and quak can mess with the CF?
05:28<@peter1138>big features don't need to be finished and completed before integration
05:32<LordAro>i agree with andythenorth
05:32<Wolf01>I would like to address the worse problems before the integration
05:32<LordAro>naturally, my opinion matters even less than his :p
05:32<andythenorth>peter1138: NRT totally works, except the bits that don’t
05:33<andythenorth>https://github.com/andythenorth/NotRoadTypes/tree/road-and-tram-types
05:33<andythenorth>Wolf01: what’s the remaining list of issues?
05:34<Wolf01>Compatibility check
05:34<Wolf01>Editor
05:34<Wolf01>We could allow cities to build roadtypes in future
05:34<andythenorth>oh the whole “is it the right implementation” thing as well
05:34<andythenorth>groundtypes
05:34<andythenorth>that
05:36<Wolf01>But the first thing is to patch NML and document the features (also the ones not actually used) so that we wouldn't have broken grfs when the features will be implemented
05:42<Wolf01>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=76873 I agree
05:43<@peter1138>hm
05:44<milek7>on topic of roundabouts, recently here many intersections were transformed into mini-roundabouts :D
05:44<milek7>http://www.krosno24.pl/info/2016/lipiec/nowe_rondo01.jpg https://www.terazkrosno.pl/images/rrrcontent/images/larges/jest-nowe-rondo-bedzie-kolejne_4077_gALGjl.jpg
05:46<Wolf01>Yes, they do that almost on every intersection here
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05:59<@peter1138>"10-year-old rape victim, who was not allowed to have abortion by Indian Supreme Court, delivers baby girl"
05:59<@peter1138>ffs
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06:17<andythenorth>Wolf01: what’s not patched in NML? o_O
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06:18<Wolf01>I don't know
06:19<andythenorth>supports all current features afaik :)
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06:19<Wolf01>Yes, "current" is the key word
06:19<@peter1138>oo
06:20<andythenorth>patching NML is usually piss easy
06:20<andythenorth>grfcodec seems to ‘just work'
06:20<andythenorth>renum is a special place of its own
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06:25<Wolf01>Hmm, freenode has problems with spambots... I wonder how much it will take for them to come to OFTC too
07:00<crem1>I still understand why they exist. Is that IRC spam efficient? I bet noone ever bought what they spammed about.
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07:11<Wolf01>This time they spam really bad things
07:12<Wolf01>[12:23:12] -christel- [Global Notice] In light of the wave of spambots sending links to child pornography images, we have chosen to update our default umodes to include +R (blocking messages from unregistered users). To allow such messages, /mode yournick -R. Apologies for the disruption and the inconvenience.
07:13<crem>We should all move to discord. :) Although spammer rades are not uncommon there too.
07:13<Wolf01>I won't leave irc
07:15<LordAro>urgh, discord
07:15<crem>:)
07:16<andythenorth>not good?
07:16<andythenorth>Slack much?
07:16<jgkamat>Ugh slack is terrible :(
07:17<jgkamat>They blocked my browser so I cant access it anymore
07:17<crem>it is. But in general I'd prefer there would be only one chatting app. I hate having gazilion of apps with subset of friends in every on them.
07:17<jgkamat>crem: move everyone to irc
07:18<jgkamat>Or check out matrix.org
07:18<crem>:) They don't agree to move!
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07:43<Wolf01>I moved my group from whatsapp to telegram even if they didn't agree
07:46<Wolf01>If only there is a multiplatform, multiprotocol, stable, easy to use (I don't care much about this, but others do) chat app for smartphones...
07:47<andythenorth>hmm
07:47<andythenorth>this needs a newgrf fix
07:47<andythenorth>https://bugs.openttd.org/task/2664
07:47<andythenorth>maybe there should be a ‘fix irritations’ newgrf :P
07:48<Wolf01>We should add an "abandoned" state to houses, and only the abandoned ones could be overbuilt
07:48<crem>Do you know any long (multihour) openttd gameplay video with relaxing music on background? Or without music, I can do that myself.
07:48<andythenorth>there are some yogscast let’s plays
07:49<andythenorth>and someone who plays FIRS (\o/)
07:49<crem>like from few years ago?
07:50<crem>They were not that exciting, they only played for a few years, without really knowing what to do.
07:50<@planetmaker>Wolf01, threema works nicely... but yes, not multi-protocol
07:51<Wolf01>Also some protocols like whatsapp don't allow 3rd party services to connect to them, they even banned telegram2whatsapp bridges
07:52<@planetmaker>bastards
07:52<andythenorth>557 FS issues
07:52*andythenorth picking them off one at a time
07:52<@planetmaker>want to reduce it to 0?
07:52<andythenorth>ha
07:52<andythenorth>that would be…satisfying :)
07:52<andythenorth>but probably cheating
07:53<andythenorth>what would you do? Close them all, or rm -r FS?
07:53<Wolf01>truncate table flyspray_tasks
07:54<andythenorth>would make frosch sad :)
07:54<andythenorth>planetmaker: do you have admin on FS?
07:54<andythenorth>I have rights for closing issues, but otherwise limited
07:55<andythenorth>Wolf01 and LordAro should have more rights
07:55<Wolf01>update flyspray_tasks set status = 'closed'
07:55<Wolf01>I won't give me so much power
07:55<@peter1138>delete from flyspray_tasks
07:56<_dp_>2664 is not about newgrfs as I see it but the very mechanics itself
07:56<Wolf01>*wouldn't
07:56<_dp_>too many theathers is just one of the results of that mechanics
07:56<andythenorth>Wolf01: you have to not abuse it :)
07:57<_dp_>also it's kind of wrong, iirc even unfinished houses produce passengers, so effect on transportation isn't that great is it may seem
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07:57<andythenorth>_dp_: what do you think the core issue is?
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07:58*andythenorth has interpreted it as ‘towns upgrade to smaller popn buildings
07:59<_dp_>andythenorth, I don't rly see it as an issue but rather some downsides of current mechanics
07:59<Wolf01>andythenorth: I'm a kid (specifically a 15 years old kid in the body of a man twice his age) and I will abuse it for sure, even if I won't
07:59<_dp_>it makes sense to downgrade pop to build like commercial building
07:59<Wolf01>*don't want
08:00<andythenorth>:P
08:00<_dp_>also don't see any good alternative here without completely overhauling town growth mechanics
08:01<andythenorth>which changes base game :P
08:01*andythenorth pretty certain that newgrf can fix the majority of it
08:01<andythenorth>if somebody cared
08:02<_dp_>newgrfs can offer more houses so it doesn't look weird as a town
08:02<_dp_>but can't do much about stats effect of the mechanics
08:03<_dp_>like huge pop drop when town starts growing
08:03<_dp_>or huge pop gain when it stops for than matter)
08:03<Wolf01>Are we really sure that town growth is really the same of the TT one?
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08:05<_dp_>from what I know it's very close at least
08:06<_dp_>but there sure are some minor differences
08:07<Wolf01>Also... "we don't want to change the base game" is the same excuse Blizzard used to explain why they didn't want to overhaul the game mechanics, but they added visual zoom and you can keep an eye on a bigger part of the map now... the more you see...
08:07<stefino>Hello, I have a question about grf IDs. Can somebody tell me if are IDs "MI" and "MK" free to use for new graphcs sets? Thanks :)
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08:08<_dp_>imo there is no real need to keep mechanics of base game. besides, openttd is pretty far already in some areas
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08:11<andythenorth>stefino: http://bananas.openttd.org/en/newgrf/
08:11<andythenorth>I can never remember how to translate the grfid though :P
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08:11<andythenorth>it’s ascii->hex or so
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08:11<Wolf01>I think town growth can be changed without any problem, it changed already to allow road grids
08:12<andythenorth>it’s a social problem
08:12<andythenorth>how should it be changed?
08:12<andythenorth>who decides?
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08:12<andythenorth>who deals with all the pissed off people
08:12<andythenorth>I am +1 to breaking more stuff, but eh
08:12<andythenorth>it’s not free :)
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08:12<Wolf01>People are already pissed off
08:12<_dp_>only thing I care is that it doesn't break citybuilders too much :)
08:13<andythenorth>there is a newgrf towns spec, but the implementation is incomplete afaik
08:13<Wolf01>I would make cities grow more near stations instead of pseudo random growth
08:13<andythenorth>and GS seemed to make newgrf towns redundant
08:13<andythenorth>but then only one GS per game
08:13<andythenorth>so utility GS are a dead concept
08:13<andythenorth>and you can’t have pool GS, because that would be a disaster
08:17<Wolf01>Make OTTD like OpenRA, you start it and chose what you want to play
08:17<_dp_>GS is so handicapped, I'm surprised people manage to do anything useful with it
08:18<Wolf01>Hardcode FIRS and some GS on OTTD
08:18<andythenorth>_dp_: mostly, they don’t
08:18<andythenorth>the absence of GS is noticeable
08:18<Wolf01>Or provide curated grf/gs/ai/scenario presets
08:18<andythenorth>GS is crippled by newgrf
08:22<_dp_>andythenorth, is it? they serve a different purpose
08:22<_dp_>at least from mp perspective
08:22<andythenorth>GS can’t control industry (because newgrf)
08:22<andythenorth>GS can’t control cargo (because newgrf)
08:22<andythenorth>GS can’t control vehicles (because newgrf)
08:22<andythenorth>GS can’t control railtypes (because newgrf)
08:22<andythenorth>GS can’t control houses (because newgrf)
08:23<andythenorth>it’s a pattern :)
08:23<_dp_>well, GS is server-side so it can't rly control stuff the same way as newgrfs do anyway
08:24<andythenorth>what would you want more control of?
08:25<andythenorth>stefino: https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action8#GRFID
08:26<_dp_>andythenorth, network clients
08:26<andythenorth>what would you do to them?
08:26<_dp_>andythenorth, houses won't be bad too, like GS can build house, but only random, not a specific one in a specific place.
08:27<_dp_>andythenorth, scrolling viewport is firs thing coming to mind
08:28<_dp_>andythenorth, but I guess admin actions won't be bad too, like kicking
08:28<_dp_>andythenorth, at least know them rly, GS has no concept of clients whatsoever atm
08:29<andythenorth>hmm
08:29<andythenorth>GSTunnel
08:29<andythenorth>could have a random tunnel builder :P
08:30*andythenorth wonders where GS logs to
08:30<_dp_>andythenorth, yep, and roads
08:30<Wolf01>_dp_: gs should be able to provide full featured tutorials such as funding and closing industries, change production, grow a city, build houses and roads in precise places, build transport infrastructures for player
08:30<_dp_>andythenorth, I thought of creepy road building GS but couldn't think of any use for it)
08:30<andythenorth>pikka did that in an AI
08:30<andythenorth>only not creepy
08:30<andythenorth>if you could feed it ascii art that would be interesting
08:31<andythenorth>puts swearwords all over the map
08:31<andythenorth>Wolf01: most of those utility functions are of zero use because only one GS per game
08:31<andythenorth>and who wants a monolothic GS that does all those things?
08:31<andythenorth>eh
08:31<_dp_>Wolf01, tutorials won't be bad but I'm more itrested in mp stuff honestly
08:32<andythenorth>player-triggered scripting?
08:32<_dp_>btw, GS can scroll players in sp but not mp
08:32<Wolf01>A tutorial provided with the game to help newcomers?
08:32<andythenorth>didn’t someone work on that?
08:32<Wolf01>Yes, there's a scenario IIRC
08:32<LordAro>was it zuu?
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08:33<andythenorth>functional testing GS of more use
08:33<andythenorth>log actions, match up with crashes, assertions
08:33<andythenorth>build a specific map, deterministically
08:34<andythenorth>save screenshots on intervals, use visual diff to check the content
08:34<andythenorth>compared to expected result
08:34<andythenorth>run it on nightly builds
08:35<andythenorth>probably a bit prone to spurious failure though
08:36<_dp_>speaking of mp stuff GS aside server has nearly zero influence over the game, it's can't even stop player's action properly
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08:37<_dp_>and from GS it can't stop it at all
08:38<andythenorth>GS can’t run that fast
08:38<andythenorth>it’s on interval
08:38<andythenorth>we’d need an event bubbling system to trap player actions
08:38<_dp_>yeah, that too
08:38<_dp_>it can't even update goals fast enough atm
08:39<_dp_>coz 1 goal = 1 command = 1 tick
08:39<andythenorth>I would strip out a bunch of openttd, add in more customisation points and let people run free with mods :P
08:39<andythenorth>but eh, it’s a big ask for the current code
08:39<andythenorth>then again, GS was “impossible” for years, and then it just appeared :)
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08:41<_dp_>btw idk when newgrfs gained ability to do logic but now it feels like the worst decision in a whole game
08:42<_dp_>it should be some js-like client-side GS imo
08:42<_dp_>with events and stuff
08:43<andythenorth>that would desync in MP
08:43<_dp_>andythenorth, that's why I said client-side meaning both sides ofc
08:43<_dp_>andythenorth, like newgrf does but in a proper language and not some pile of hacks
08:44<andythenorth>horse is out of that stable and about 5,000 miles away
08:45<_dp_>hm, mb not be that far actually... with versatile enough platform it may be possible to implement backwards compatibility on it
08:45<andythenorth>it wouldn’t matter if newgrf was newgrf, js, squirrel, whatever
08:45<andythenorth>the problem is that it’s arbitrary content
08:46<andythenorth>can’t script arbitrary content
08:46<andythenorth>can’t do a tech ladder
08:46<andythenorth>can’t control towns
08:46<andythenorth>can’t control industries
08:46<andythenorth>can’t control cargos
08:47*andythenorth wonders what happens if there are multiple GS
08:47<andythenorth>how bad can it get?
08:47<_dp_>well, it's not hard to do in a single script, but making them work with each other will be hard
08:48<_dp_>andythenorth, right now you just can have multiples, but they seem to merge ok
08:48<_dp_>*can't
08:49<_dp_>at least btpro seems to be fine with merging everything in one big GS
08:56<_dp_>for mods to work with each other they should be using same API's but API can be in mods too if there is a proper dependency management
08:57<_dp_>eg you can't have two cargo types API in game but you can have one train mod and one station mod if they work on same cargo types
09:04<_dp_>oh, and what I rly miss is ability for server to push some configuration stuff on player without requiring him to go and download newgrfs
09:05<_dp_>like basecosts
09:06<_dp_>or small gameplay tweaks
09:07<_dp_>some things like changing price for one train are nearly impossible atm
09:08<_dp_>you have to clone whole newgrf
09:08<@peter1138>no you don't
09:08<_dp_>peter1138, if price is in callback?
09:09<@peter1138>oh well
09:09<@peter1138>good luck :p
09:09<_dp_>xD
09:24<Sacro>!logs
09:24<Sacro>@logs
09:24<@DorpsGek>Sacro: https://webster.openttdcoop.org/index.php?channel=openttd
09:24<Sacro>good bot
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09:43<supermop>what's andy getting up to this morning
09:44<supermop>need to finish my rv grf so i can release it as road candy before andy takes that name
09:46*andythenorth working
09:46<andythenorth>also closing FS issues
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10:17<Wolf01>o/
10:17<@Alberth>hi hi
10:18<crem>hi hi hi hi
10:19<andythenorth>lo Alberth
10:25<LordAro>ho hi
10:34<supermop>so today it will be 82 degrees Fahrenheit
10:34<supermop>30 something for the rest of you
10:34<supermop>yesterday it was nearly 90
10:34<supermop>this is not thaat shocking in new york in august
10:35<andythenorth>sounds nice
10:35<andythenorth>got AC?
10:35<supermop>what was shocking was that uniqlo had not a single short sleeve shirt for sale, other than like tennis shirts and t shirts
10:35<andythenorth>this? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5573
10:35<supermop>if i want to buy a shirt to wear to work on a 90 degree day, i must do so in march i guess
10:36<andythenorth>strikes me it would spawn requests from people who had accidentally just sold all their vehicle
10:36<andythenorth>vehicles *
10:36<supermop>haha
10:36<andythenorth>so probably people would want a confirm
10:36<supermop>i would use that
10:36<andythenorth>and a cancel
10:36<andythenorth>I would use it
10:36<andythenorth>but do we need it?
10:37<supermop>does feel stupid to buy a brand new manley morel or whatever just to scrap it
10:37<supermop>andythenorth: maybe a way to disable auto renew or whatever per group or vehicle?
10:37<andythenorth>that is also requested
10:37<andythenorth>I closed that
10:38<andythenorth>it’s daft
10:38<supermop>so trains you are running into the ground before scrapping don't get renewed
10:38<supermop>well consider this - i only use auto replace per group usually
10:38<andythenorth>+1
10:39<supermop>i think people have a legitimate confusion as to why replace and renew behave so differently
10:39<andythenorth>yeah
10:39<supermop>and are enabled from totally different places
10:39<andythenorth>that’s why I’m -1 to adding more
10:39<supermop>i guess i am suggesting to move the renew functionality to where replace lives
10:40<supermop>"Start replacing vehicles", "start renewing vehicles", "stop replacing vehicles"
10:40<supermop>or allow replacing like with like
10:41<andythenorth>I would file most of it under consist management
10:41<andythenorth>but eh, we have to keep the old methods too
10:41<supermop>renew is burried in settings where it is more like turn it on or off once ever, not multiple times per game as need arises
10:41<andythenorth>so it won’t happen :)
10:42<supermop>i mean the settings about when to renew, and cash on hand threshold could stay in settings
10:42<supermop>but what breaks if the toggle button is in the vehicle list?
10:42<andythenorth>be easier to build a vehicle management tool and make them explicit
10:42<andythenorth>but eh
10:43<andythenorth>for amusement, ctrl-click the train list on global toolbar
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10:47<supermop_>power cut out at office
10:47<andythenorth>too much AC demand :P
10:49<supermop_>our server over heats a lot
10:49<supermop_>because one of the partners of a firm we share space with is very stingy with the ac
10:49<supermop_>and turns it off entirely over night and weekends
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10:51<andythenorth>Alberth: strings can’t wrap? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5141
10:53<_dp_>good alternative would be to add "go to depot(and sell)" order
10:55<_dp_>but it's probably way to much clicking without hotkeys tho
10:55<_dp_>but at least it fits "do once and forget" workflow
10:56<supermop_>_dp_: scrap order?
10:56<andythenorth>550 FS issues :)
10:56<andythenorth>I rejected “got to depot and sell” also
10:56<andythenorth>as an order
10:56<andythenorth>it’s a dumb use of an order :)
10:56<supermop_>ha
10:57<andythenorth>if we had templated consists, you’d just point the vehicle to a null consist template
10:57<andythenorth>and it would get scrapped
10:57<andythenorth>job done
10:57<supermop_>i wont complain if you add consists
10:57<_dp_>andythenorth, but we don't so it's a pain to get rid of vehicle atm
10:58<andythenorth>I just delete them in depots :)
10:58<andythenorth>using the buttons provided
10:58<andythenorth>I agree, it’s less fun than other things
10:58<_dp_>andythenorth, for that you need to wait for it to get in depot
10:58<andythenorth>I know
10:58<Wolf01><andythenorth> for amusement, ctrl-click the train list on global toolbar <- wtf we still have 2 UIs for vehicle lists?
10:58<andythenorth>I’m not arguing it’s good
10:58<_dp_>andythenorth, I usually just send them and let them rot there
10:59<andythenorth>but given that there are almost no active devs anyway
10:59<andythenorth>if we’re making armchair wish lists
10:59<andythenorth>we might as well wish for good features
10:59<_dp_>andythenorth, goto and sell should be easy
10:59<andythenorth>not piling crap on creaking foundations
10:59<andythenorth>there would have to be a confirm step
10:59<andythenorth>for all those users who need that
10:59<supermop_>https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6607?project=1
10:59<andythenorth>and a setting
11:00<_dp_>andythenorth, when selling from orders? no need imo
11:00<_dp_>andythenorth, it's pretty much the same as sending them to depot, no need to confirm that
11:00<andythenorth>you’d do it per vehicle?
11:01<andythenorth>or from the group window?
11:01<_dp_>andythenorth, I'm talking about sell order, whether it's shared or not depends on situation
11:01<andythenorth>sell order piles more on orders
11:01<andythenorth>orders are ~broken already :)
11:01<andythenorth>also it enables rondje
11:02<andythenorth>so there would need to be an advanced setting for it
11:02<andythenorth>to disable
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11:02<_dp_>enables what?
11:02<andythenorth>winning by sending vehicles on a one way route
11:03<_dp_>andythenorth, there is a much better solution to that
11:03<_dp_>andythenorth, not allow selling vehicle in other depot for some time
11:03<supermop_>it would be pretty low on the wish list for me
11:04<supermop_>it would be useful, but i understand not adding it for sake of keeping things more clean
11:04<Wolf01>Could (Should) we rewrite some duplicated UIs to be changed by a button on them instead of opening one or the other with CTRL?
11:05<_dp_>andythenorth, also it's kind of irrelevant to having such order since you need to buy them manually so can sell them manually as well
11:05<andythenorth>Wolf01: that’s a question about backwards compatibility eh?
11:05<andythenorth>we iirc had to keep the old one around to appease players who can’t/won’t use the new one
11:05<Wolf01>Backward compatibility is about core
11:05<Wolf01>I don't give a fuck about UI
11:05<andythenorth>so maybe we should talk about savegame compatibility
11:05<andythenorth>and player compatibility
11:06<andythenorth>quite a lot of our limitations are imposed by player compatibility
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11:07<Wolf01>Get the vehicle list as an example, you have 2 UIs for the same thing and a setting which controls the one to open when clicking on the toolbar with or without CTRL
11:08<Wolf01>If we change the groups by adding a button to show/hide the groups panel?
11:08<andythenorth>it’s an option
11:08<Wolf01>*groups UI
11:08<andythenorth>another option (almost same really): just make one good thing
11:09<andythenorth>instead of 1 that is mostly good, and 1 or 2 more that are mediocre or broken
11:09<Wolf01>Yes, that's the main reason behind this
11:09<Wolf01>Fewer things to maintain
11:09<andythenorth>but must be kept to avoid upsetting people who wish to live in the past
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11:09<supermop_>what is the other vehicle list?
11:09<andythenorth>the non-groups version
11:09<supermop_>huh
11:09<supermop_>whats the point
11:09<Wolf01>You will continue to have a setting which controls if the UI opens with the groups panel open, but no more 2 UIs
11:09<_dp_>andythenorth, by the cost of upsetting people who wish to live in the future :p
11:10<andythenorth>everything tends to stasis
11:10<andythenorth>we likely attract the kind of player who also likes to preserve steam trains
11:10<andythenorth>nothing wrong with that
11:10<supermop_>yeah would a show/hide groups options help?
11:10<supermop_>i do not like steam trains
11:10<andythenorth>all that’s needed is courage
11:10<supermop_>i barely even like locomotives
11:10<andythenorth>https://www.theverge.com/2016/9/7/12838024/apple-iphone-7-plus-headphone-jack-removal-courage
11:11<supermop_>my biggest complain about vanilla vehicles is not enough MUs and no EMUs
11:11<andythenorth>Wolf01: can you patch to remove the old UI?
11:11<andythenorth>no switches, no options
11:11<andythenorth>just delete it
11:11<supermop_>i do like my headphone jack though because i still use headphones
11:11<Wolf01>Yes, I could
11:11<supermop_>and don't want separate headphones just for my phone
11:12<andythenorth>Wolf01: maybe we should have a set of branches for stripped down ottd
11:12<supermop_>no chiseled borders on UI elements?
11:12<Wolf01>Yes, possible
11:12<andythenorth>with a single patchpack branch that gets compiled by the compile farm
11:13<Wolf01>No, just remove ye olde features
11:13<andythenorth>separate to new features, just seeing what could be binned
11:13<andythenorth>removal only
11:13<Wolf01>LightOTTD?
11:13<andythenorth>ModernOTTD
11:14<Wolf01>Nope, that would be a derived branch
11:14<andythenorth>like ModernIE :P
11:14<_dp_>HalfOTTD
11:14<andythenorth>the removal list probably isn’t that long
11:15<Wolf01>Remove pathfinders, just use the best ones
11:15<Wolf01>Remove canals
11:15<andythenorth>Pathfinders +1
11:15<_dp_>Wolf01, along with ships xD
11:15<Wolf01>XD
11:15<supermop_>someone had a request to borrow pathfinders
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11:16<Wolf01>Remove newgrf support, gs, ai
11:16<andythenorth>lawks
11:16<Wolf01>And replace with "resources"
11:17<Wolf01>Ai as gs, gs as ai, newgrfs mixed up with gs
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11:17<Wolf01>GS with graphics
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11:20<Wolf01>BTW, I could start by removing the duplicate UI
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11:22<_dp_>imo having such depressive branch solves nothing
11:22<andythenorth>finds out what breaks when things are deleted
11:23<andythenorth>code bonfire is always good
11:23<_dp_>andythenorth, I reckon pretty much everything can be removed
11:24<_dp_>andythenorth, question is what should be
11:24<andythenorth>non-canonical things
11:24<andythenorth>i.e. 2 or 3 ways to do things where 1 is enough
11:24<_dp_>then it has to be done in trunk
11:24<_dp_>nobody cares if you remove something in a branch
11:25<andythenorth>eh?
11:25<andythenorth>are you proposing more of these mercurial patch queues? :D
11:25<andythenorth>or to put the question: how does it get into trunk without a branch?
11:26<Wolf01>Just patch directly trunk
11:26<_dp_>well, I mean if that's just a depressive branch that is not supposed to ever be merged
11:26<andythenorth>all this crap with patches on FS, patches on forums, people with personal mercurial queues
11:26<andythenorth>is a crap way of developing
11:26<andythenorth>github -> fork -> feature branch -> compile farm
11:26<Wolf01>_dp_: then why continue developing for the game, almost everything would never be merged
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11:27<_dp_>Wolf01, isn't it why it stalled? ;)
11:27<Wolf01>:)
11:28<_dp_>feature branches are cool
11:28<_dp_>but you were first talking about some weird branch to just see what can be removed
11:28<andythenorth>yes
11:28<Wolf01>Yes
11:28<andythenorth>well I was serious, but then Wolf01 got more creative
11:28<Wolf01>Cleanup code to reduce the maintenance a bit
11:29<Wolf01>Also reducing redundancy
11:29<andythenorth>there isn’t that much duplication, but what these is could go
11:29<andythenorth>it would mean breaking saves, or migrating them
11:30<Wolf01>Even the settings vs options... stupid distinction, just make settings a tab panel of the options
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11:30<andythenorth>that was work in progress
11:30<andythenorth>think it stalled :)
11:31<Wolf01>Like everything
11:31<andythenorth>at least difficulty settings got deleted
11:31<Wolf01>NRT stalled too
11:31<andythenorth>get peter1138 to commit it :)
11:31<andythenorth>it’s not FAIL
11:31<Wolf01>Yes, that was too much difficult to fine tune as involved too many different settigns which even altered the gameplay
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11:32<_dp_>what I'm saying is that removing something mostly needs a decision not coding
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11:32<_dp_>removing before making decicion is pretty much pointless imo
11:33<Wolf01>What do you need to decide? Remove the old limited thing and keep the new with all the functions
11:33<Wolf01>Then, maybe, change the new to be able to look like the old by clicking on a button
11:34<Wolf01>(this one could break many things and every feature should be aware of the state of the UI)
11:35<andythenorth>just remove the old :P
11:35<andythenorth>simpler
11:35<andythenorth>and make the new good, if not already :P
11:36<andythenorth>what does it all mean? o_O https://bugs.openttd.org/task/4547
11:36<andythenorth>also, pretty old, can close?
11:40<Wolf01>I think it is still valid, but badly proposed
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11:50<_dp_>oh, nvm, reading it back I guess I just misunderstood that removal thing
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11:57<_dp_>tho it's funny that removing gui can theoretically break tutorial gamescripts
11:58<_dp_>iirc ui access for tutorial is limited to toolbar atm so probably no real thread here
11:58<_dp_>but if there was more api it could be an issue
11:59<_dp_>which makes me think that tutorial gs isn't rly a good idea
11:59<_dp_>it requires too much ui specific api for basically just a one gs
12:00<_dp_>doesn't make much sense to have several tutorials, just make a one that's good
12:01<_dp_>and code it into game, not gs
12:04<Wolf01>"If _settings_client.gui.advanced_vehicle_list > 1, display the Advanced list | if _settings_client.gui.advanced_vehicle_list == 1, display Advanced list only for local company | if _ctrl_pressed, do the opposite action (Advanced list x Normal list)"
12:04<Wolf01>Ok, I understand 0 and 1
12:05<Wolf01>What does it shows for 2?
12:05<Wolf01>Or what should it show
12:06<supermop_>only groups and no vehicles
12:06<supermop_>a list of every available vehicle that you do not currently own
12:07<supermop_>vehicles that would have been nice to have in the newgrf but are not included
12:10<@Alberth>Wolf01: not show at all?
12:11<Wolf01>I tried it on a MP game, but it was showing the same thing for both settings
12:11<Wolf01>Maybe wrong savegame as example
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12:48<_dp_>and now Alberth too says it's worth spamming irc with patches :/
12:49<_dp_>so, should I do it one-by-one or just fs list is enough? :p
12:51<andythenorth>ha
12:52<andythenorth>don’t really understand this one https://bugs.openttd.org/task/4185
12:54<_dp_>that whole station bulding-joining interface is crap
12:54<_dp_>I tried to imrove it once but failed sadly
12:55<andythenorth>it’s interesting watching my kids play
12:55<andythenorth>and what’s intuitive
12:55<andythenorth>and what is fucking batshit crazy :)
12:55<andythenorth>ctrl-click stations, completely baffling
12:55<andythenorth>ctrol-click cloning, once explained, no problem
12:56<andythenorth>one is much more direct than the other
12:56*andythenorth waits for V453000’s to have kids playing
12:58*andythenorth waits to be able to type without errors
12:59<_dp_>I had an idea to separate ctrl into multiple keys so it will have consistent meaning
12:59<_dp_>like shift is always estimation
12:59<_dp_>would be nice to have a key that is always removal
13:00<_dp_>and I guess one meta key for everything else
13:00<andythenorth>how about a hotkey that just nukes vehicles en-route?
13:00<andythenorth>like in Lemmings, when you could kill individual lemmings
13:00<andythenorth>that would save sending them to depot for scrapping
13:00*andythenorth is slightly serious actually
13:00<_dp_>andythenorth, yeah, that's even better :)
13:01<andythenorth>there was iirc, shotgun, and nuke all
13:01<andythenorth>nuking all was always so satisfying
13:01<Wolf01><_dp_> I had an idea to separate ctrl into multiple keys so it will have consistent meaning <- add more UI buttons
13:02<andythenorth>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GzF6vm9fwY
13:02<_dp_>when I though about doing new trains game I planned to not have depots at all, just buy trains at stations and sell, idk, I guess anywhere is fine indeed
13:02<_dp_>Wolf01, I don't usually click ui buttons :p
13:02<Wolf01><andythenorth> how about a hotkey that just nukes vehicles en-route? <- I was totally like "why not add a function where you click multiple times a vehicle and that breakdowns and explodes if you click on it too much?"
13:03<Wolf01>Like on warcraft/starcraft with critters
13:09<andythenorth>540 FS
13:09<andythenorth>game is getting harder
13:09<andythenorth>closing more tickets might mean diagnosing bugs, or implementing features :P
13:11<Wolf01>Yes
13:11<Wolf01>And someone should start to do that
13:13<andythenorth>I tried to repro this https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5949
13:13<andythenorth>if no-one else has ideas, it’s probably needing closed
13:13<Wolf01>I can't help
13:15<andythenorth>https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6520 o_O
13:15<_dp_>there was bug with similar assertions somewhere (to 5949)
13:16*andythenorth gtg, bbl
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13:28<NGC3982>in ecs, is there an age limit to cement?
13:28<NGC3982>cant find it in the cargo list.
13:32<NGC3982>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2366 OH..
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13:44<Eddi|zuHause>i think my old fritzbox just gave up, like 3 months after the 5-year warranty ended
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13:45<NGC3982>whatever a fritzbox is, it has an unfortunate name.
13:46<andythenorth>things there could be less of: Microsoft Auto Updater dialogs
13:47<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: it's the most popular router/modem in germany
13:52<NGC3982>i see.
13:53<andythenorth>bah
13:53<andythenorth>can’t see any more FS to close at all
13:53<andythenorth>:(
13:53<LordAro>oh noes
13:53<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: also, fritz is a regular name, it doesn't have the weird connotation that it got in english
13:54<LordAro>hmm
13:54<NGC3982>i know, its just funny to see as a swede (since we dont have that much fritz-names)
13:54<NGC3982>its sad that a normal name receives that connection outside of germany
13:54<LordAro>has anyone considered a system for submitting patches/merge/pull requests
13:54<andythenorth>yes
13:55<LordAro>that's separate to flyspray
13:55*andythenorth considered github
13:55<andythenorth>like ~everyone else
13:55<andythenorth>but because of the [not trying to persuade anyone] aversion to git here
13:55<andythenorth>I went looking for mercurial alternatives
13:55<andythenorth>but I didn’t find one yet that’s free
13:55<LordAro>there must be a svn thing somewhere
13:55<andythenorth>I _think_ bitbucket does mercurial, but not sure
13:56<LordAro>it certainly used to
13:56<andythenorth>but I couldn’t find a bitbucket free plan
13:56<LordAro>but i'm not sure offloading it to a 3rd party service would be a good solution
13:56<andythenorth>imho, it would be a lot better :)
13:56<andythenorth>running own services is bonkers
13:58<milek7>why not git? svn is slooow
13:58<andythenorth>aversion to git
13:58<Wormnest>Bitbucket is free, you can even have private repos for small teams for free iirc
13:58<andythenorth>Wormnest: can you find a link?
13:58*andythenorth uses commercial bitbucket
13:58<andythenorth>but I cannot find anything about open source free, except dead links
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13:58<_dp_>doesn't github support mercurial too?
13:59<andythenorth>dunno
13:59<andythenorth>I only use git by choice
13:59<_dp_>and bb is nice too, free for public repos indeed
13:59<andythenorth>some things offer hg-git bridge crap
13:59<andythenorth>but that’s bound to fail
13:59<Wormnest>I have private repos let me see if I can a page about it
13:59<LordAro>github does actually offer a svn checkout ability, iirc
14:00<_dp_>I use free bb
14:00<LordAro>https://help.github.com/articles/support-for-subversion-clients/
14:00<_dp_>haven't tried adding a lot of people to public repo tho
14:01<milek7>trac might have some plugins for svn/hg
14:01<LordAro>trac seems like it would have potential, as does this "reviewboard" thing
14:01<Wormnest>https://bitbucket.org/product/pricing?tab=host-in-the-cloud
14:02<andythenorth>if we adopt trac, I’m leaving the project :(
14:02<LordAro>haha
14:02<Wormnest>Free for teams up to 5
14:02<LordAro>http://demo.reviewboard.org seems interesting
14:02<_dp_>https://www.atlassian.com/software/views/open-source-license-request
14:02<andythenorth>the thing is, github won
14:03<andythenorth>and if it can’t be github, why pick a non-winning alternative?
14:03<LordAro>_dp_: i believe ottd already has one of those, given http://farm.openttd.org
14:03<_dp_>agree with andy, even tho I like bb more
14:03<andythenorth>oh do we use Bamboo for the build? :)
14:03<andythenorth>interesting
14:03<andythenorth>not jenkins eh
14:04<LordAro>indeed
14:04<andythenorth>the official github repo is https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD
14:04<LordAro>apparently no one dares touch the setup though, so it only runs ancient compilers
14:05<andythenorth>we probably have one of the older repos on github https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/graphs/contributors
14:05<_dp_>LordAro, it looks like for any product not just compile farm (not sure if there is compile farm actually)
14:06<LordAro>andythenorth: pfft, it doesn't work like that https://github.com/torvalds/linux/graphs/contributors
14:06<andythenorth>eh so what happened to the linux repo history then? o_O
14:07<milek7>move from bitkeeper?
14:07<LordAro>^
14:07<andythenorth>right
14:07<andythenorth>Bamboo could run our tests?
14:07<LordAro>literally the reason git exists
14:07<LordAro>probably
14:07<andythenorth>I don’t know much about Bamboo, other than Atlassian marketing at it me in BB
14:08<LordAro>mm, me neither
14:08<LordAro>where's frosch so that we can beg for access to poke around
14:10<andythenorth>our tests would run really quick right now :)
14:10<LordAro>:p
14:10*_dp_ just noticed Bamboo is atlassian producd
14:10<_dp_>guess they failed at throwing marketing at me :p
14:10<LordAro>_dp_: hence why i pointed it at you :p
14:17<Wolf01>LordAro: I think flyspray is the best one, all the other started to use AJAX a lot, most of them are horrendously slow, confusing UI, not free
14:17<LordAro>ajax is hardly a limiting factor
14:17<LordAro>most of the internet uses it these days
14:18<andythenorth>FS can’t do pull requests
14:18<LordAro>also that
14:19<LordAro>i think some way to ease code reviews would help quite a bit
14:20<andythenorth>+1
14:22<Wolf01>http://imgur.com/a/vlQ9Q
14:22<Wolf01>Shit.
14:23<Wolf01><LordAro> most of the internet uses it these days <- yes, but it seems heavy and slow on those systems
14:24<Wolf01>Also it really slows down the filling of the required fields
14:25<LordAro>on shitty sites, yeah
14:25<LordAro>but anyway, i'm really liking the look of this reviewboard - it looks like you can just upload a diff and say "review pls"
14:26<Wolf01>I tried the ones for minecraft and intellij... puke all around
14:26<Wolf01>BTW, I think it should be possible to branch fs and add git hooks somewhere
14:27<LordAro>well that's jira for you
14:27<_dp_>Wolf01, wow, I got much better speed on mobile internet on the edge of its reception. I literally had to put modem in a colander to get a better signal
14:27<LordAro>my understanding of fs is that it's not a great program for hacking on
14:28<Wolf01>_dp_: that's my average line status
14:29<andythenorth>I am kind of dubious about things that need work
14:29<andythenorth>when we’re short of people who can do work :)
14:29<LordAro>^
14:29<Wolf01>_dp_: when they nuke the central once in a month, I'll go at hyperlight speed for a while
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14:44<Wolf01>Quak
14:44<frosch123>moo
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15:01<andythenorth>can we drop support for Mac OS X 10.4 and so?
15:01<LordAro>how old is it?
15:01<andythenorth>current version is 10.12
15:01<LordAro>oh
15:01<andythenorth>Apple policy is usually n-2
15:01<andythenorth>10.4 is 2005 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_OS_X_Tiger
15:01<LordAro>ha
15:01<andythenorth>I do have a computer in the loft that might run it
15:02<LordAro>we don't have that sort of support for linux
15:02<andythenorth>but I don’t really want to get that out to debug the multiple 10.4 bug reports
15:02<frosch123>andythenorth: all osx related limitations are due to our outdated compile farm
15:02<andythenorth>oh yes, that was explained to me :P
15:02<LordAro>frosch123: is there anything in particular that makes it outdated? just a lack of anyone updating it?
15:02<frosch123>tb has something half-finished
15:03<frosch123>but all farms actually need updates
15:03<LordAro>maybe tb could publicise what he's got done :)
15:03<frosch123>like we compile for seveal deprecated linux distros, but not for the current ones
15:04<andythenorth>ok so the OS X 10.4 issues are somehow blocking official binaries running on PPC macs
15:04<frosch123>and i believe some win8-10 issues are also related due to compiling with too old msvc/sdk
15:04<andythenorth>per https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6087
15:05<@peter1138>Updated to revision 27893.
15:06<LordAro>frosch123: heh, i'd imagine so
15:06<frosch123>for example: afaik michi committed something to disable the gui zoom on high dpi screens
15:07<frosch123>but people still complain about it
15:07<frosch123>andythenorth: new openttd.org :) or better: find a way to move everything to github or similar
15:07<frosch123>does github have a compile farm for paying folks?
15:08<LordAro>nope, but you can ... farm out.. to CI services like travis, appveyor, etc
15:08<andythenorth>it has something
15:08*andythenorth looks
15:08<LordAro>gitlab on the other hand, i believe does have something builtin
15:09<andythenorth>we just need a CI server no?
15:09<_dp_>why not move to atlassian stuff if you already have their farm?
15:09<LordAro>because atlassian
15:09<frosch123>we use atlassian because it is free
15:09<frosch123>though we don't use jira
15:10<_dp_>frosch123, do you use anything but bamboo?
15:10<_dp_>jira and bitbucket look decent
15:10<frosch123>i think there was a second atlassian thing
15:10<frosch123>i can't remember
15:10<LordAro>jira is horrible
15:10<frosch123>_dp_: i use jira at work
15:11<frosch123>problem with jira is that it does everything on the server, so you cannot open two filtered list in two tabs
15:11<_dp_>I used it too but that was long ago
15:11<frosch123>since the list content/filter state is on the server
15:11<_dp_>figured it should be ok as I don't remember anything about it xD
15:11<Eddi|zuHause>so you need two users?
15:11<LordAro>frosch123: that's horrifying
15:11<frosch123>two ip addresses work
15:12<frosch123>possibly port forwarding to/from vm or different browsers might help as well
15:12<Eddi|zuHause>so a virtual machine
15:12<frosch123>but work desktop + work notebook work
15:13<andythenorth>jira entirely devides people
15:13<andythenorth>some love it, some hate it
15:14<andythenorth>divides *
15:14*andythenorth steered away from jira, in favour of hosted redmine
15:14<Eddi|zuHause>i set up my work thin client to log into the server and the laptop (each using one screen), i haven't had the courage to tell the admin who was like "DON'T TOUCH ANYTHING" when i started half a year ago
15:14<andythenorth>bitbucket is nice though
15:14<andythenorth>https://github.com/marketplace/category/continuous-integration
15:15<frosch123>andythenorth: i guess work jira is comparable stable like devzone redmine :p
15:15<andythenorth>free Travis CI for open source projects https://github.com/marketplace/travis-ci
15:15<frosch123>it breaks down at least once a week
15:15<andythenorth>frosch123: is it self-hosted?
15:15<_dp_>how about youtrack? seems to work with bitbucket. haven't tried it yet but my friend was telling me it's good
15:15<_dp_>he works @ jetbrains tho xD
15:15<Eddi|zuHause>seriously, they tried to get me fired after two days, because i dared to log into the fileserver from the laptop, which nobody in the company ever did before
15:15<frosch123>though i would rather blame it on our admins than on jira :p
15:15<andythenorth>self-hosted is the plague
15:16<andythenorth>it’s commodity, buy it commodity off the shelf
15:16<frosch123>but yes, self-hosted
15:16<frosch123>lots of secret stuff on it
15:16<Eddi|zuHause>what does jira actually do anyway?
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15:16<andythenorth>tickets
15:17<andythenorth>there is literally a ‘buy now’ button for $0.00 Travis CI for open source
15:17<andythenorth>but then it’s on my account
15:17<andythenorth>how do we do accounts? :P
15:17<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: jira has as many plugins as eu4 has dlc
15:17<andythenorth>do we have 1Password? :P
15:17<LordAro>travis-ci is getting worse these days
15:18<LordAro>its images hardly get updated
15:18<andythenorth>hmm
15:18<LordAro>circle-ci looks more promising though - looks like you can just arbitrary docker image
15:18<andythenorth>we do run on our compile farm actually
15:18<andythenorth>we use commodity hosting
15:18<LordAro>and appveyor can do windows
15:18<LordAro>not sure about mac
15:19<andythenorth>do we cross-compile, or do we run an OS X compile?
15:19<andythenorth>(on OS X?)
15:19<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: from tickets, to scrumboards, planning, roadmaps, statistics, to employee superveilance
15:19<@peter1138>hm
15:19<frosch123>though the latter is uncommon in "socialist" countries like germany :p
15:20<andythenorth>it’s the primary feature no? :P
15:21<Eddi|zuHause>i think there are laws against it :p
15:21<andythenorth>hmm, I could rent us an OS X compile farm on native mac hardware
15:21<andythenorth>but not at $49 / month
15:21<andythenorth>if it was $20 / month maybe
15:21<+michi_cc>andythenorth: OSX is a cross compiler (which is the main reason for old) as Apple doesn't allow OS X on non-Apple hardware.
15:21<andythenorth>figures
15:22<+michi_cc>Windows and Linux OTOH are just Someone Has Got To Do It.
15:23<andythenorth>Circle CI ?? https://circleci.com/pricing/#build-os-x
15:23<frosch123>michi_cc: afaik there was a way more modern cross-compilation option based on clang
15:24<andythenorth>shall I just run CI on my laptop? :P
15:24<LordAro>"We also offer the Seed plan for OS X open-source projects. Contact us at billing@circleci.com for access. If you are building a bigger open-source project and need more resources, let us know how we can help you!"
15:24<andythenorth>yup
15:25<LordAro>circle ci looks quite promising, really
15:25<andythenorth>we could try and persuade them
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15:26<andythenorth>LordAro: email them? o_O
15:26<LordAro>i don't have a openttd.org email address :)
15:27<LordAro>probably worth investigating linux builds first
15:27<LordAro>(& windows w/ appveyor)
15:28<andythenorth>do we have openttd money donation money left? o_O
15:29<frosch123>only orudge knows
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15:31<frosch123>andythenorth: LordAro: circleci builds linux and osx, but not windows?
15:31<@orudge`>frosch123 / andythenorth: Yes, a fair chunk of it. Need to tot up the latest accounts, but there's enough!
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15:32<LordAro>frosch123: yeah
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15:32<frosch123>LordAro: who are they tarketing?
15:32<frosch123>mobile?
15:32<LordAro>¯\_(ツ)_/¯
15:32<LordAro>probably
15:45<andythenorth>most of the CI things I found were targeting iOS / Android
15:45<supermop_>hmm reading about the 'new' scenario format, i had an idea
15:46<supermop_>the road layer needn't use 9 pixels for each road tile
15:46<supermop_>instead you could use a 16 color png
15:47<frosch123>we discarded that idea :)
15:47<@peter1138>what patches was i working on?
15:47<andythenorth>peter1138: some in FS :P
15:47<supermop_>one color for each road combination + 1 color for no road
15:47<frosch123>supermop_: the goal of the new scenario format is that you can use external sources for the input
15:47<andythenorth>something about ships using up CPU
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15:47<andythenorth>https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6145
15:47<andythenorth>^ such glamour :)
15:47<@peter1138>hmm yes
15:47<@peter1138>where did my diffs go... :S
15:48<frosch123>fuzzle/o
15:48<@peter1138>didn't upload these
15:48<@peter1138>-rw-r--r-- 1 petern petern 2986 Apr 6 21:03 fs6145.diff
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>supermop_: i don't think too much colour-coding is a good idea
15:48<@peter1138>hmm
15:48<andythenorth>checked your github? :P
15:48<supermop_>frosch123: what if you used only one pixel per tile, and if you neglected to differentiate color, game would try to interpolate a road using pathfinder?
15:49<@peter1138>ah yes, ships going off in random directions, only to then _still_ cause lag
15:49<frosch123>supermop_: would be best for country roads
15:49<andythenorth>silly ships
15:49<andythenorth>send them round in a circle :P
15:49<andythenorth>virtual bouy
15:49<@peter1138>virtualboy
15:49<frosch123>supermop_: but doesn't replicate manual work from scenario editor with multiline roads
15:49<andythenorth>or to nearest depot…and sell them :P
15:49<andythenorth>automatically
15:50<Eddi|zuHause>supermop_: i think 95% of cases should be covered by automatically connecting neighbour tiles
15:50<@peter1138>the fundamental issue was that it was trying to route to somewhere too far away
15:50<@peter1138>ship with no orders == ship going to 0,0
15:50<supermop_>new feature in 1.8.0: all ships on map go straight to a depot and get sold, no matter what
15:50<supermop_>Eddi|zuHause: exactly
15:51<Eddi|zuHause>supermop_: the tricky part is where you don't want that, like parallel roads of a highway
15:51<supermop_>if you need to do detail 'point work' then use colors?
15:51<andythenorth>griefers are broing
15:51<andythenorth>or boring
15:52<andythenorth>but actually my typo is probably true too
15:52<Eddi|zuHause>supermop_: or separate layers?
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>roads won't connect with roads from another layer (intersections will have to appear in both layers)
15:53<andythenorth>compositing
15:53<supermop_>i wonder if that is less intuitive than colors
15:53<supermop_>i could see different layers per road type
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>supermop_: colours will be too tedious to remember "which colour do i need now for this road?"
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>supermop_: roadtype is easier as colour, though
15:54<supermop_>what if the 3x3 pixel method is retained and used for all other layers too?
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>supermop_: trouble with the 3x3 plan was that it can't be scaled
15:55<supermop_>so a 'block' of 9 pixels, 5 of which are wate, becomes a tile of water
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15:56<Eddi|zuHause>supermop_: that sounds pretty useless
15:56<supermop_>for all other layers, average the 3x3 square to get value of tile
15:56<supermop_>idk
15:58<frosch123>you can also overlap the 3x3 squares on all sides by 1 pixels
15:58<@peter1138>so i kept these diffs around... which ones did i forget to delete? :p
15:58<frosch123>peter1138: opengl?
15:59<@peter1138>never deleting that
15:59<frosch123>oh, you are in an andy mood to delete things :)
16:00<@peter1138>no i'm looking at fs bug patches i made but never committed
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16:02<frosch123>i have some time next week. should be able to get to arolard/adf/wolf patches :)
16:03<andythenorth>is there anything useful I can do with the crash reports?
16:03<andythenorth>https://bugs.openttd.org/?do=index&project=1&string=crash&type%5B0%5D=&sev%5B0%5D=&pri%5B0%5D=&due%5B0%5D=&cat%5B0%5D=&status%5B0%5D=open&percent%5B0%5D=&reported%5B0%5D=
16:05<frosch123>some of them are diagnosed
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16:08<frosch123>anyway, do you have a list of bugs which can be fixed "fast"
16:08<andythenorth>not really
16:08<andythenorth>my judgement of ‘fast’ is probably flawed
16:09<andythenorth>https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6606
16:09<andythenorth>we need tags :P
16:09<andythenorth>in FS
16:09<andythenorth>https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6599
16:10<_dp_>btw, it's nice when someone posts info from crash.dmp
16:10<andythenorth>https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6512
16:10<frosch123>i always do that when it works
16:10<frosch123>but it does not work automatically if an assertion failed, that needs a real msvc
16:10<_dp_>that way someone on linux like may decide if it's worth looking into
16:10<andythenorth>https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6515
16:11<frosch123>also lately crash.dmp are huge so many are unable to upload them
16:11<frosch123>_dp_: yes, we have a script for that, but as said, it fails in case of "assertion failed"
16:12<frosch123>then it only has a backtrace up to the assertion, which is useless
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16:13<_dp_>super fast one ;) https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5827
16:15<andythenorth>https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6189
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16:19<LordAro>https://circleci.com/gh/LordAro/OpenTTD/12 well that wasn't so bad
16:21<andythenorth>:)
16:25<milek7>appveyor works ok for windows
16:26<milek7>and is suprsingly free
16:27<_dp_>this one should be 'fast' either https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6465
16:32<frosch123>andythenorth: _dp_: i added a new status "With patch"
16:33<_dp_>frosch123, hooray!
16:33<andythenorth>LordAro: so it builds :)
16:35<LordAro>can confirm
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16:36<_dp_>frosch123, though as a reporter I still can't use it to indicate that I also attached a patch
16:37<_dp_>frosch123, also it kind of conflicts with "confirmed" status
16:37<_dp_>though it's not being used anyway
16:38<_dp_>I guess it should imply confirmation
16:39<frosch123>andythenorth: _dp_: i added some more rights to the "regular patchers" group, and moved _dp to it
16:39<andythenorth>:)
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16:39<andythenorth>does LordAro have rights to?
16:39<frosch123>can you check whether you can now do something which you clearly shouldn't?
16:39<_dp_>^^
16:39<frosch123>fs permissions are so ridiculous sometimes
16:40<frosch123>andythenorth: yes
16:40<andythenorth>I can’t see settings, and I am happy with that
16:40<Wolf01>Yes they are
16:40<frosch123>wolf doesn't
16:40<LordAro>hype
16:40<andythenorth>he didn’t want it
16:40<frosch123>fixed
16:40<frosch123>andythenorth: anyway, you should now be able to change status and close without assignment :p
16:41<Wolf01><frosch123> wolf doesn't <- Better, I don't trust wolf
16:42<_dp_>frosch123, I can't quite think of anything I can't do now
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16:42<_dp_>frosch123, like I can edit tasks, close them
16:42<frosch123>_dp_: delete and edit others comments
16:42<_dp_>frosch123, what is there else to do?
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16:43<_dp_>frosch123, no, doesn't look like it
16:46<_dp_>so, is ok to set 'with patch' to everything with patch? like even if it's a highly questionable feature that has little to no chance of getting in trunk imo?
16:47<frosch123>i mainly intended it for bugs
16:47<andythenorth>there’s already a patch category for non-bugs
16:47<frosch123>feature requests with patch should probably be patch
16:47<frosch123>or all patches should be feature request with patch :)
16:48<andythenorth>my vision of the bright future involves a zero count in the ‘patch’ category
16:48<_dp_>frosch123, sometimes there are patches that don't rly introduce anything I though patch category was for them
16:48<_dp_>like refactoring ones
16:48<frosch123>i guess a "patch" category is more useful than "feature with patch"
16:48<frosch123>_dp_: ok, no idea
16:48<andythenorth> currently only 65 issues in ‘patch’ category https://bugs.openttd.org/?do=index&project=1&type%5B0%5D=4&sev%5B0%5D=&pri%5B0%5D=&due%5B0%5D=&cat%5B0%5D=&status%5B0%5D=open&percent%5B0%5D=&reported%5B0%5D=
16:48<frosch123>i don't think there is a definion anywhere what was intended
16:49<_dp_>'with patch' is rly more of a label if anything imo, sadly no labels in fs :(
16:49<andythenorth>bug tracker taxonomies are nearly as unresolvable as spaces vs. tabs
16:49<Wolf01>I think that tags should have been better, but they are in fs1.0+
16:49<andythenorth>I asked TB for an upgrade :)
16:51<andythenorth>eh, really why bother? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5298
16:51<andythenorth>loan of hundreds of millions
16:52<_dp_>well, I guess for now I'll only set "with patch" to confirmed bugs with reasonable patches
16:52<andythenorth>ctrl-alt-c for money
16:53<_dp_>andythenorth, not that bad of an idea for mp actually
16:53<Wolf01>Make finite money in the map, every 5-10 years increase the amount
16:53<_dp_>andythenorth, will make it a bit easier to balance economy
16:54<andythenorth>frosch123: maybe quick :) https://bugs.openttd.org/task/4789
16:56<_dp_>andythenorth, oh, nvm, I did'n quite read it all. dynamic loan max is bad imo
16:57<_dp_>andythenorth, but increasing range for initial loan isn't bad
16:58<andythenorth>that’s different :)
16:58<andythenorth>‘bad patch’ doesn’t mean ‘bad idea’ :)
16:58<andythenorth>but bug tracker doesn’t need to capture all the ideas
16:59<andythenorth>most good ideas come back again and again
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16:59<Wolf01>Fs1.0 tries to find similar tasks when opening new ones
16:59<andythenorth>lawks
17:00<andythenorth>that will never work :)
17:00<Wolf01>So it prompts the user if he wants to open the task anyway
17:04<_dp_>andythenorth, main idea there is to do dynamic loan which should be rejected entirely imo as it brings up a lot of issues for no apparent benefit
17:05<LordAro>https://circleci.com/gh/LordAro/OpenTTD/tree/master now with lots of compilers!
17:05<_dp_>andythenorth, and with an implementation like that it's pretty much equivalent to double income
17:05<_dp_>andythenorth, so, actually, bascost mod will do the same
17:06<frosch123>LordAro: "gcc-4" sounds pretty broad
17:07<LordAro>just the name of the docker image :)
17:07<andythenorth>_dp_: yup :)
17:07<LordAro>i think it's 4.9
17:07<LordAro>s/i think//
17:09<_dp_>Wolf01, I've seen similar feature somewhere and it wasn't that bad
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17:09<Wolf01>What, the limited money or the similar tasks? :D
17:10<_dp_>Wolf01, similar tasks)
17:11<_dp_>besides, if anything that mean less bugs ^^
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17:14<andythenorth>totally off topic
17:14<andythenorth>but maybe it would be worth giving newgrf vehicles some ‘livery’ var
17:15<andythenorth>there are so many crap hax on cargo subtypes
17:15<andythenorth>it’s creaking
17:15<LordAro>hmm
17:16<LordAro>frosch123: know anything about building with static-icu? the build failed before of it :(
17:16<supermop_>isn't it kind of late for andy to be up?
17:16<andythenorth>bed soon
17:16<supermop_>i thought there was already a livery thing?
17:16<LordAro>sleep is for those who aren't redesigning newgrf cargo subtypes
17:17<andythenorth>afaik, the issues are only (1) what’s the UI (2) pretty much every author has a different idea of how this pony works, and none of them will get the perfect thing
17:17<andythenorth>so eh, whining
17:20<frosch123>LordAro: any specific link, i get a lot of spinning wheels
17:20*andythenorth designs a deliberate awful livery spec
17:20<LordAro>https://circleci.com/gh/LordAro/OpenTTD/21
17:20<andythenorth>which forces every grf to declare all the liveries statically
17:21<andythenorth>and then choose which ones apply to the vehicle
17:21<LordAro>not sure if i'm missing a package or something else
17:21<andythenorth>and they’re limited just to that grf
17:21<andythenorth>so auto-replace can preserve liveries
17:21<andythenorth>but it’s hard to abuse liveries for hax like refittable engines, gearboxes, capacities etc
17:22<andythenorth>probably bedtime :P
17:25<frosch123>LordAro: i can't tell. farm.openttd.org seems to be broken, so i cannot check there
17:25<LordAro>lol
17:25<LordAro>wasn't me
17:26<LordAro>it could well be just that i need to build icu myself
17:27<andythenorth>it’s funny that reading ~840 tickets (even testing some crashes) is preferable to finishing FIRS 3 :P
17:27<frosch123>LordAro: it says the same if i compile with that option on my machine
17:28<LordAro>curious
17:28<LordAro>well, it's not needed for standard "does this compile" build anyway
17:32<frosch123>was that the goal?
17:32<LordAro>initially
17:33<LordAro>i'd guess i'd want to add some sort of "build nightly release" and "build actual tag release" as well
17:33<LordAro>don't think either are too difficult
17:34<milek7>for what icu is used anyway?
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17:37<LordAro>milek7: unicode support - sorting and rendering
17:37<LordAro>font rendering*
17:38<LordAro>i have to say, i'm not entirely sure why the release builds have that static, but nothing else
17:39<frosch123>because libicu is abi incompatible even between minor versions
17:39<LordAro>ah right
17:39<LordAro>fun
17:39<@planetmaker>quite :)
17:39<frosch123>iirc they did some magic to include the version number into the symbol names or something
17:40<LordAro>;-;
17:40<frosch123>basically to force incompatibility and not having to deal with weird reports
17:40<frosch123>well, c++ libs are troublesome anyway
17:40<andythenorth>is bed
17:40<andythenorth>bye
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17:41<@planetmaker>did I grasp that right that you toy the idea to move the CF to something less unique, more easy to maintain?
17:41<milek7>c++ libs? aren't these could be incompatibile even with diffirent compiler versions?
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17:42<LordAro>planetmaker: toying
17:42<@planetmaker>:)
17:44<Eddi|zuHause>you should develop an automatic CF maintainer
17:44<Eddi|zuHause>that will solve all maintaining problems
17:44<Eddi|zuHause>(i think this is how web frameworks are created)
17:44<milek7>hmm, no, it looks like itanium abi is used these days so there shouldn't be problems with name mangling
17:45<frosch123>milek7: for name mangling there are only 2 standard afaik, itanium and some microsoft thing. i think the issues come with stack unwinding
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>anyone have a 250Ohm resistor (value 8 cents) lying around? i could order one, but it costs 6€ shipping
17:46<frosch123>i have 150 ohm and 10 kohm
17:46<frosch123>maybe you can combine them in serial and parallel to get 250
17:47<Eddi|zuHause>i think it must be between 250 and 500
17:48<Eddi|zuHause>is there some electric base kit i could order?
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17:54<_dp_>what is "requires testing" status for?
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17:54<_dp_>isn't any unconfirmed bug require testing?
17:54<Eddi|zuHause>sounds like "i don't want to deal with this right now"
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17:55<frosch123>no task uses it :)
17:58<Eddi|zuHause>that's because i'm not working on any tasks :p
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18:02<+glx><Eddi|zuHause> is there some electric base kit i could order? <-- any kind of arduino starter kit I guess :)
18:04<Wolf01>_dp_: requires testing mean that someone got assigned to the task, so the task is not new, but also not completed
18:05<_dp_>Wolf01, there is also "assigned" status
18:06<Wolf01>Assigned is just assigned
18:08<_dp_>speaking of assigned I don't rly get it either, there is a separate Assigned To field for that
18:08<Wolf01>The status should change accordingly with that
18:09<_dp_>Wolf01, I think that's mixing up different semantics
18:09<_dp_>assigned task can still be new or confirmed etc.
18:10<Wolf01>New should only be that when a user creates it
18:11<_dp_>Wolf01, then you loose ability to express smth like "I'm going to work on this bug but haven't confirmed it yet"
18:11<Wolf01>New->(assign to x)->assigned->...->require testing->confirmed->resolved
18:13<_dp_>Wolf01, what? no, confirmed just means that bug exists, not that it's tested
18:13<_dp_>*patched and tested
18:13<_dp_>with current workflow in openttd it seems patched and tested = resolved
18:14<Wolf01>Ok, we could get an agreement for states
18:15<Wolf01>But when a task is being worked by someone, it must have at least assigned people and shouldn't be new
18:15<_dp_>yeah, would be nice to have. for states and general workflow
18:15<_dp_>also some guidelines on priority and severity
18:16<Wolf01>"If all are critical nothing is critical"?
18:19<_dp_>hm, on a second thought I guess it makes sense an extra assignes status that pretty much same as "new" but for assigned tasks. just to distinguish them from completely new ones
18:19<Wolf01>That's what I meant
18:20<LordAro>"
18:20<LordAro>"Just give me a write access to the repo, and I'll merge all the glorious touchscreen-related fixes right away :D"
18:20<LordAro>HMMMMM
18:20<_dp_>Wolf01, yep, I was just thinking from issue solving perspective and it's meaningless for it but from overall task management I guess makes sense
18:22<Eddi|zuHause>but keep in mind that any rules concerning criticality should address the number of earrings properly
18:23<Wolf01>Yes, critical ones should be evaluated first and fixed, or fix the severity if was set wrong :P
18:24<Eddi|zuHause>so if you can't fix it immediately, it can't have been critical in the first place?
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18:27<Wolf01>No, I didn't mean that, I mean that if a kid comes and wants a critical bugfix for a translation I think is not really critical... a reproducible crash when creating a new game is critical
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18:31<_dp_>any reproducible crash should be quite high imo
18:31<_dp_>as you never know in what weird form it can manifest
18:32<Wolf01>There is crash and crash :P
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18:34<_dp_>in case of memory corruption having crash is much better than weird unreproducable crap all over the program
18:34<_dp_>or desyncs in openttd case
18:37<_dp_>or I guess any invalid game state can have similar effects, not just memory corruption
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18:42<Eddi|zuHause>that doesn't sound like "critical" to me
18:43<Eddi|zuHause>"critical" might be a thing that makes the game unplayable for a large number of people
18:44<Eddi|zuHause>like once we did a release where trains couldn't leave the depot (0.4.6 or something)
18:44<_dp_>I'm not saying "critical", just higher than regular bug
18:45<Eddi|zuHause>also, 0.4.0 had a "critical" bug, but i don't remember what it was
18:47<Eddi|zuHause>i think i marked a bug report as "critical" once that probably didn't deserve that. i think it was some newgrf-related crash on game start
18:49<Wolf01>Debatable but yes
18:51<Wolf01>Rename critical to unplayable
18:52<Wolf01>"I can't change the company color, the game is unplayable"
18:54<_dp_>Wolf01, that might actually be true if he's colorblind :p
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20:17<Wolf01>'night
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20:35<_dp_>ok, that's weird
20:36<_dp_>somehow new task I created got assigned to several random people at once https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6610
20:36<_dp_>and I can't even remove those assignments now :(
20:41<@peter1138>fixed
20:43<_dp_>ty
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---Logclosed Fri Aug 18 00:00:18 2017