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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-08-31

---Logopened Thu Aug 31 00:00:36 2017
00:19-!-Cubey [~Coobies@pool-96-241-233-56.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
01:33<gentz>So I've made an account here: https://account.openttd.org/en
01:34<gentz>but when I try to log in here: https://bugs.openttd.org/
01:34<gentz>It says my username/password combo is unknown
01:35<gentz>Any clue why?
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01:53<risajef>Hi. Is anyone here?
02:00-!-andythenorth [~andytheno@cpc87219-aztw31-2-0-cust178.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd
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02:01<risajef>Hi
02:01<gentz>Post the question
02:01<gentz>hope someone responds
02:02<risajef>My opensfx does not work
02:02<risajef>I'm on debian linux
02:02<gentz>Any specific error?
02:02<risajef>I't just doesn't play the sounds
02:02<risajef>Music works, but not sounds
02:03<risajef>I installed it via the ingame downloader, and afterwards manually, both does not work
02:03<gentz>Can you try running "openttd -v"
02:03<gentz>See if you have a sdl sound driver
02:03<gentz>And sound sets
02:04<risajef>List of sounds sets: OpenSFX
02:04<risajef>List of sound drivers: sdl: SDL Sound Driver
02:05<gentz>try running "openttd -v sdl"
02:05<gentz>err no
02:05<gentz>-s not -v
02:06<risajef>Still no sound. Still music.
02:07<gentz>This is a stupid question but have you checked you selected OpenSFX
02:07<gentz>under Game Options -> base sound set
02:07<risajef>Yes I have. Not a stupid question. :D
02:08<andythenorth>check your music volume slider in-game
02:08<andythenorth>small chance you’re encountering https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5807
02:08<andythenorth>doesn’t sound like it, but worth mentioning
02:12<risajef>It does not work. Another thing I just realized I can't controll the volume by the musicbox. It is always the same volume. But I can start and stop the music.
02:13<gentz>Can ya try running "openttd -d driver=9 -d misc=9"
02:13<gentz>check if its finding the opensfx files
02:14<gentz>and that its probing the sound driver
02:14<risajef>dbg: [misc] Found dir in tar: opensfx-0.2.3/ dbg: [misc] Found file in tar: opensfx-0.2.3/opensfx.obs (9356 bytes, 1024 offset) dbg: [misc] Found file in tar: opensfx-0.2.3/opensfx.cat (13128144 bytes, 11264 offset)
02:14<gentz>also that its loading the sound effects
02:18<risajef>What should there be? I only find: dbg: [misc] Loading sound effects... three times
02:19<risajef>But never something like: Succsessfully loaded sound effects
02:19<gentz>Thats what I have
02:19<gentz>so looks right
02:19<gentz>I have no clue what else to do
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02:20<gentz>your gonna have to find someone more knowledgeable
02:20<risajef>Nevermind. Thanks a lot for your time. I make a post on the forum.
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02:41<risajef>Another ingame question: How can I increas the percentage of transported things? Is there a wiki page about that? I can't find it. I have on some factories only 30% and the train is never full. Do I need more trainstations?
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02:45<risajef>An ingame question: How can I increas the percentage of transported things? Is there a wiki page about that? I can't find it. I have on some factories only 30% and the train is never full. Do I need more trainstations?
02:47<@DorpsGek>Commit by adf88 :: r27904 trunk/src/vehicle.cpp (2017-08-31 08:47:17 +0200 )
02:47<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#6593]: When last vehicle is removed from shared orders group, hide the "Stop sharing" button in vehile orders window
02:48<@DorpsGek>Commit by adf88 :: r27905 /trunk/src (smallmap_gui.cpp smallmap_gui.h) (2017-08-31 08:48:55 +0200 )
02:48<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#6585]: Keep the "link" between industry chain and smallmap windows whenever possible
02:51<andythenorth>ho, such commits adf88 :)
02:51<@DorpsGek>Commit by adf88 :: r27906 trunk/src/pathfinder/npf/npf.cpp (2017-08-31 08:51:01 +0200 )
02:51<@DorpsGek>-Cleanup: Remove some NPF code with no effect and mark possible bug about never used NPF_FLAG_IGNORE_RESERVED flag
02:51<andythenorth>going to get to double figures soon?
02:51<adf88>something is wrong?
02:52<andythenorth>no :)
02:53<adf88>ok :)
02:53<adf88>two more
02:54<@DorpsGek>Commit by adf88 :: r27907 trunk/src/newgrf.cpp (2017-08-31 08:54:22 +0200 )
02:54<@DorpsGek>-Fix: AirportSpec::rotation was memleaking
02:55<@DorpsGek>Commit by adf88 :: r27908 /trunk/src (4 files in 2 dirs) (2017-08-31 08:55:38 +0200 )
02:55<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Mark airport tile tables and FTAs "const" to be sure that they are really constant
02:57<Eddi|zuHause>risajef: to increase transported % you need to increase your station rating, usually by making sure there is always a train waiting (e.g. with "full load")
02:57<andythenorth>adf88: want me to close the relevant FS tasks? o_O
02:58<adf88>just done
02:59<andythenorth>great :) 390 FS left now
02:59<Eddi|zuHause>adf88: andy is now our resident fstaskcloser :p
02:59<adf88>all seems OK, i must leave now so
02:59<andythenorth>ticket gardener
02:59<adf88> have a nice day :)
02:59<Eddi|zuHause>he has found his calling :p
02:59<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: it’s worryingly close to my day job
02:59<andythenorth>in the absence of employing enough developers, I try to get software built by moving tickets around
03:00<andythenorth>_somewhat_works
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03:02*andythenorth wishes someone would commit this one :) https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6114
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03:58<andythenorth>peter1138: o/
03:59<@peter1138>sup
04:01<andythenorth>want to close this https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6145
04:01<andythenorth>“we don’t prevent griefers"
04:01<andythenorth>but you seemed to be interested in fixing it so eh, asking first
04:18<crem>https://www.google.com/search?q=where+is+the+2024+solar+eclipse
04:18<crem>\o
04:21<V453000>huminz? mornink?
04:21<V453000>iz?
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04:22<andythenorth>also V453000
04:23<andythenorth>such BRIX?
04:24<gentz>Um so I can't log into flyspray
04:24<gentz>I made an account 3 hours ago or so
04:24<gentz>I can log into the wiki and translator tho
04:24<gentz>Does anyone know whats up?
04:25<V453000>BRIX kind of sleeping for the last 2 days, on Tue I got shitfaced and on Wed I was trying to survive :D
04:25<V453000>and today I will probably work until dead so no brixorz eithar
04:25<V453000>iz gg
04:25<V453000>hopefully moar on weekend =D
04:26<andythenorth>gentz :(
04:26<andythenorth>I can’t help, but ask again later, or post in forums :P
04:28<@peter1138>high cpu usage is not "griefing"
04:29<@peter1138>it's a bug
04:30<andythenorth>ok
04:32<V453000>depends how many thousand trains you have :P
04:32<blocage>peter1138, hich cpu usage to compute the Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, The Universe, and Everything is not a bug
04:33*andythenorth removed comment
04:33<blocage>so it's depend what is the root of the CPU usage
04:33<andythenorth>ship pathfinding is inefficient
04:33<andythenorth>[shrug]
04:33<andythenorth>many have tried
04:34<@peter1138>i fixed the immediate issue on that task
04:34<@peter1138>there are further issues of course
04:34<andythenorth>$someone should commit it
04:34<andythenorth>shall I test it?
04:34<andythenorth>oh I’d have to set up servers and crap
04:36<gentz>Umm, so I made a new acount with an old email
04:36<gentz>and it works
04:36<andythenorth>oh it DOSes my single player client on ffwd
04:36<andythenorth>fine
04:36<gentz>but its an old email
04:36*andythenorth will test the patch
04:36<gentz>so can I like change the email on the account?
04:37<blocage>there is off-screen rendering mechanism in ottd ?
04:40<blocage>looking at how list of vehicul are rendered I would say no, but maybe I missed something
04:42<andythenorth>peter1138: https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6145#comment14668
04:43<@peter1138>wtf .mov
04:43<@peter1138>crazy apple man :(
04:44<@peter1138>blocage, yes
04:44<andythenorth>I used to know about video formats
04:44<andythenorth>it was my job
04:44<andythenorth>now I enjoy clicking the ‘export with magic’ button and not knowing :P
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04:48<andythenorth>ugh 87 unconfirmed bugs :P
04:48*andythenorth bored now
04:51<gentz>Can someone test this out
04:52<gentz>https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6617
04:52<gentz>plz and thank you
04:52<gentz>It works for me
04:57<gentz>gn
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05:03<blocage>peter1138, you mean yes there is a off-screen rendering ?
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05:06<Wolf01>o/
05:18<@peter1138>it's all drawn off screen and then the updated areas are copied to the screen
05:19<@peter1138>it's very much old-school style
05:21<LordAro>and technically not supported by sdl2
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05:22<Wolf01>andythenorth: but I like FS#6114 :(
05:22<@peter1138>it doesn't work well with modern compositing engines either
05:22<@peter1138>(linux nor windows)
05:24<@peter1138>problem with 6114 is payments
05:25<Wolf01>Problem with everything is that cargo does not carry a destination
05:26<Wolf01>And all that "transfer" is bullshit, virtual payments etc
05:27<andythenorth>6114 has a patch :P
05:27<andythenorth>should be applied and closed
05:29<Wolf01>Last time I was about to suggest you to make FIRS dock industries to use that behaviour
05:31<blocage>peter1138, oups, I ask to know if I can create an offscreen buffer where I can draw, then blit to the screen buffer
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05:39<Wolf01>IMO, OTTD should work in two modes: point-to-point orders (remove transfer and unload/leave empty which makes no sense at all), cdist (which could be improved more) if you want a complex network
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05:43<andythenorth>Wolf01: w.r.t docks https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5682#comment14636
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05:52<V453000>remove transfer and unload/leave empty which makes no sense at all <- ?
05:53<Wolf01>What do you use unload for? Make your route only lose profits?
05:54<V453000>whenever you want to force the train to unload if there is no industry which accepts it?
05:54<V453000>it might not be the "most typical basic network" case but it definitely has many uses
05:54<V453000>we use it even for standard unload stations, you want to make sure the train is unloading even if the industry died
05:55<V453000>or if it stopped accepting shit due to newgrf rules etc
05:55<Wolf01>Ehm, if you "unload" the cargo stays at the station even if the cargo is accepted
05:56<V453000>yes
05:56<V453000>but unload and leave empty makes sure the train doesn't try to pick it up?
05:56<V453000>I don't see your problem with it, it clearly has uses
05:56<Wolf01>Forum is full of newcomers which "I don't get paid when unloading the cargo at stations which accept it"
05:56<V453000>are they transferring it or what
05:57<Wolf01>No, just set up a point-to-point with load here, unload there
05:57<Wolf01>I've seen manyu cases
05:57<Wolf01>-u
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05:58<V453000>what's the issue, how do they reach that case?
05:58<V453000>if the station accepts it how do they not get paid?
05:59<Wolf01>When you force unload the cargo is moved to the station even if accepted, and you don't get paid
06:00<Wolf01>Sorry, maybe I used the wrong string, I don't ever use it because I find it annoyingly useless
06:00<V453000>if you transfer to the station you don't get paid
06:00<V453000>if you unload it works perfectly fine
06:00<Wolf01>Then the behaviour changed
06:00<V453000>no
06:01<V453000>or at least not since like 0.7 or something when I started playing
06:01<V453000>as far as I remember
06:02<V453000>if you transfer, the train which delivered it will get a share on the profit once the final train delivers it ... assuming that it was transferring it to the correct direction I think
06:02<V453000>so if you want to have all of your trains turn profit every year, you just use this and as long as they are "being beneficial", they will do fine
06:03<Wolf01>I think it changed when the order options got split
06:03<Wolf01>I'm not talking about transfer, forget transfer
06:04<Wolf01>Transfer is its own bullsht too
06:11<V453000>unload order always gets paid if the station accepts the cargo afaik
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06:18<Wolf01>I think I last used "unload and leave empty" was on 0.4.3
06:19<@planetmaker>that's *a bit* ago ;)
06:19<V453000>does not mean nobody else does
06:19<Wolf01>Eh, never noticed it was "fixed"
06:20<Wolf01>I usually forget about the second dropdown in orders
06:49<Wolf01>https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aq1y2gv_700b.jpg V453000: some cosplay?
06:57<_dp_>direct routes are slightly more profitable but transfer/hub ones are much faster to build
06:57<_dp_>also can't do direct on both sides of 2-way route
07:03<_dp_>and I've never heard of unload not pushing cargo to industry, those newcomers are either transfering or station is not accepting
07:03<_dp_>or some other wierd stuff like trains picking cargo on unload station from other industry
07:04<_dp_>I always have unload orders on leave empty to avoid that
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07:46<Wolf01>I only use unload if accepted, that solves all the problems, if trains come back with cargo, then I assigned the wrong station or the industry closed
07:49*andythenorth never uses it
07:49<andythenorth>but I wish ‘no loading’ was easier to add :P
07:49<andythenorth>otherwise cdist is borked
07:49<Wolf01>It's the default
07:53<andythenorth>nah you have to make it explicit
07:53<Wolf01>Unload if accepted is the default
07:54<andythenorth>yair
07:54*andythenorth thought you meant ‘no loading'
07:55<Wolf01>No loading is on the other dropdown
07:55<andythenorth>yup
07:55<Wolf01>I use that a lot, but the "unload" dropdown is dead to me
07:59<Alkel_U3>I can imagine using it as sort of "if accepted: unload else: transfer" with industries that do this and have some vehicles to transport that unaccepted extra cargo elswhere
07:59<Wolf01>That's cdist
08:00<Wolf01>Which I only use for pax, cargo is point-to-point
08:01<Alkel_U3>cd actually works correctly on destinations with variable accepted cargos? :-)
08:01<andythenorth>orders :(
08:01<andythenorth>such a mess
08:03<Wolf01>I'm going to start a new ottd game, all other games I tried to play made me ragequit because of stupid errors I made
08:04<andythenorth>I have to quit ottd games to fix newgrf things
08:04<andythenorth>then I break my save
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08:19<@peter1138>moo
08:20<andythenorth>neigh
08:20<andythenorth>also http://www.quickmeme.com/img/92/92d811887351152e055e3e577d8a84595be75761e70383a3d7958449700a4c8a.jpg
08:20*andythenorth such css
08:20<Alkel_U3>Wolf01: have you tried Rimworld
08:21<Wolf01>No
08:22<Alkel_U3>I hear it's like Dwarf Fortress but darker
08:22<Alkel_U3>also with actual graphics
08:23<Wolf01>It costs more than €free
08:23<Alkel_U3>which is the only reason I haven't played it yet :-)
08:23<Wolf01>Also more than €0.35 which I have in the steam wallet
08:25<andythenorth>V453000: I have bought loads of retro-synth albums
08:25<Wolf01>I just tried endless sky, which seem to be a game I should like... you need to purchase the fuel to make hyperspace jumps, you have no money, you have not enough fuel to reach the next mission objective...
08:25<andythenorth>getting me through a website rebuild :P
08:27<Alkel_U3>I tried that game recently, seems fun
08:29<V453000>XD
08:29<V453000>andythenorth: will you resell them? :P
08:29<andythenorth>not so much
08:29<andythenorth>on itunes
08:29<V453000>gg
08:29<V453000>money sunk
08:32<andythenorth>such uplifting chords very
08:35<andythenorth>peter1138: isn’t oil-rig sharing a feature? o_O
08:35<@peter1138>PASS
08:35<@peter1138>pass, even
08:35<@peter1138>if it's a feature, then it's not a known-bug, surely
08:36<andythenorth>can’t argue with that
08:37<andythenorth>oh we have a ‘problems’ forum?
08:38<andythenorth>are there > 9000?
08:41<V453000>ASS
08:42<andythenorth>loads of things to reply to in problems forum eh? :)
08:42*andythenorth busy busy
08:53<andythenorth>bored of that now :P
08:53<Wolf01>Mmmh, refit to available cargo needs a kickstart or the station won't get any cargo
08:54<andythenorth>yup
08:54<andythenorth>you have to refit first vehicle
08:54*andythenorth can’t think of a solution to that
08:54<andythenorth>cycling all the refits might be…unwanted?
08:54<andythenorth>‘refit available cargo’ is mostly a bad feature
08:55<andythenorth>it really should be removed IMHO
08:55<andythenorth>iirc I was one of the ones who asked for it, it got added around YACD time, and made sense with YACD
08:56<Wolf01>Other solution will be "station starts getting cargo when placed" like the old TTDX
08:57<andythenorth>that’s….irritating
08:57<Wolf01>Yes
08:57<andythenorth>it causes a lot of failed ratings, no?
08:57<andythenorth>fine on a 64x64 map, otherwise…shit
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09:04<@peter1138>herp
09:10<Wolf01>I enabled cdist for cargo too on this game, and with that autorefit thing I set up a really nice service
09:13<Wolf01>Meh, nearest oil field on the other side of the 2048 map
09:17<_dp_>andythenorth, in citymania client you can assign modifier keys for orders including "no loading". So it like just ctrl+click when you add order.
09:17<_dp_>there probably is patch for it somewhere in FS even, or on forums
09:18<_dp_>it's a bit too magical for trunk though probably
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09:53<V453000>hmm how do I install PIL / Pillow on windows please? :d google doesn't seem to help much
09:54<ST2>1st you need a bed - blankets not mandatory - choose 1 side and throw (just messing around, because I have no idea :)
09:55<V453000>I haz it
09:55<V453000>was super easy because I installed python properly this time
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10:00<Wolf01>https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aNzwb4w_700b_v1.jpg :D
10:08<andythenorth>how about a dice-roll FS bot?
10:08<andythenorth>once a day, it closes a task
10:08<andythenorth>some tasks are just not fated to happen
10:09<andythenorth>kizmet
10:11<LordAro>:D
10:17<andythenorth>Wolf01: you could write a crash-log parser?
10:17<andythenorth>maybe in PHP even?
10:17<Wolf01>Eh, I could with the specs
10:18<andythenorth>feed it crashlogs, extract metadata from the key/value pairs
10:18<andythenorth>incremement counts, and store refs to each crashlog
10:19*andythenorth words
10:19<andythenorth>e.g. https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6563/getfile/10705/crash.log
10:19<andythenorth>Version, NewGRF ver, Bits, etc
10:19<andythenorth>Blitter: etc from Configuration
10:20<andythenorth>store them in a simple DB, then have html to filter / cross reference
10:20<andythenorth>maybe a way to chart them
10:21<Wolf01>Mmmh, ok
10:21<andythenorth>eh, seems Apple, MS, etc have their own
10:21<Wolf01>Could be done
10:21<andythenorth>https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/IDEs/Conceptual/AppDistributionGuide/AnalyzingCrashReports/AnalyzingCrashReports.html
10:21<andythenorth>https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=vnIXo-yUT2gC&pg=PA171&lpg=PA171&dq=crashlog+parser&source=bl&ots=B6ZBuYGZWa&sig=M9ZEilTkfJWdET8Lt2eWL2ksKRk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi708LF1YHWAhUDKMAKHdb_DaYQ6AEISzAE#v=onepage&q=crashlog%20parser&f=false
10:21<andythenorth>minecraft even :P https://www.planetminecraft.com/mod/minecraft-crash-report-analyzer/
10:22<andythenorth>we could scrape crash logs from FS
10:22<Wolf01>It would be nice if FS allowed plugins
10:23<crem>Why not google spreadsheets + lots of scripts!
10:24<andythenorth>crem: where to start with ‘why not that’ :P
10:24<andythenorth>?
10:24<andythenorth>I could make you a google sheet of reasons :)
10:24<crem>:)
10:25<crem>Where do those crash report come from? Is there some automated process to send them?
10:26<Wolf01>That would be filled with andy's crash logs
10:26<andythenorth>they’re user-submitted manually
10:27<andythenorth>Wolf01: if they were automated, mine would not be sent
10:27<andythenorth>the ‘changed newgrfs’ flag would prevent it
10:29<Wolf01>BTW, which DB or noDB do you like?
10:30<crem>depends, but for RDBMS it's postgres nowadays.
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10:39<andythenorth>Wolf01: postgres or…sqlite?
10:39<andythenorth>or MS Access :P
10:39<andythenorth>not
10:39<Wolf01>Postgres is ok for me, I have to install all the others
10:40<@peter1138><3 postgres
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10:44<LordAro>http://howfuckedismydatabase.com
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10:48<Wolf01>Ok, I could focus on the parser, I'm too much tempted to do the DB part with Doctrine
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11:28<frosch123>Wolf01: another canal mail
11:28<Wolf01>Reply "yes"
11:29<Wolf01>Lol, I was so used with frameworks that I forgot how to do basic stuff
11:35<andythenorth>quak
11:40<frosch123>hoi
11:40<frosch123>either i forgot how to build ai/gs documentation, or it is broken
11:44<LordAro>whynotboth.jpg
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12:05<frosch123>looks like debian defaults to mawk instead of gawk
12:07<andythenorth>8 bugs a month
12:07<andythenorth>bugs / new FS
12:07<andythenorth>@calc 388 / 12
12:07<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 32.3333333333
12:07<andythenorth>@calc 388 / 30
12:07<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 12.9333333333
12:07<andythenorth>@calc 13 * 8
12:07<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 104
12:07<andythenorth>@calc 104 / 30
12:07<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 3.46666666667
12:07<andythenorth>regression :P
12:07<andythenorth>@calc 4 * 8
12:07<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 32
12:08<andythenorth>19 months to zero FS, if we close 1 per day :P
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12:34<_dp_>#uselessstatistics
12:36<andythenorth>need a bigger hammer
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12:59*Wolf01 needs a bit of regex
13:00<V453000>my ass is full of regex
13:00<V453000>just take
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13:10<Wolf01>Mmmh, I don't know if I want to take regex from the ass of somebody :P
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13:22<Wolf01>andythenorth: did you see the official announce of the "new" lego set which costs a kidney and an eye?
13:23<andythenorth>is it Star Wars?
13:23<Wolf01>Yup
13:23<andythenorth>so not interested :)
13:23<andythenorth>I like star wars but eh
13:23<Wolf01>$799 of remake
13:24<andythenorth>so let’s close some FS
13:24<andythenorth>that’s free
13:24<andythenorth>18 tickets ‘with patch'
13:24<andythenorth>https://bugs.openttd.org/index.php?string=&project=1&search_name=&type%5B%5D=&sev%5B%5D=&pri%5B%5D=&due%5B%5D=&reported%5B%5D=&cat%5B%5D=&status%5B%5D=14&percent%5B%5D=&opened=&dev=&closed=&duedatefrom=&duedateto=&changedfrom=&changedto=&openedfrom=&openedto=&closedfrom=&closedto=&do=index
13:25<andythenorth>it’s nice having ‘patch’ ticket type and ‘with patch’
13:25<andythenorth>all bug trackers suffer from taxonomy diffusion :)
13:25<Wolf01>Patch is useless, patch for what, fix, feature?
13:26<andythenorth>dunno :)
13:26<frosch123>someone said "refactoring"
13:26<frosch123>but that has become pretty rare
13:26<Wolf01>My thoughts too
13:26<Wolf01>Rename it to "codechange"
13:26<andythenorth>there are 64 ‘patch'
13:26<andythenorth>I made a nice video for this one https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6145
13:26<andythenorth>worth a watch
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13:29<Wolf01>Lol
13:29<Wolf01>Nice
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13:29<andythenorth>fireworks
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13:40<LordAro>is it me, or are there no other languages other than /en ?
13:40<LordAro>(on ottd.org)
13:41<+glx>nobody did it :)
13:41<LordAro>i thought as much :)
13:41<LordAro>afaict, only 3 strings are translatable anyway
13:41<LordAro>("Download OpenTTD", "Learn how to play", "Visit our community")
13:42<andythenorth>reject? o_O https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6534
13:43<andythenorth>this seems…brittle, and odd https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6478
13:43<andythenorth>and likely to cause bug reports in future
13:43<LordAro>andythenorth: 6534 seems fine as a newgrf feature request, imo
13:43<andythenorth>maybe it needs retitled
13:43<LordAro>andythenorth: yeah, reject 6478
13:43<andythenorth>‘Airports: add ‘airport is closed’ var
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13:44<LordAro>andythenorth: i can't see it ever being added to the base set
13:44<LordAro>but i can see ogfx+airports doing it
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27909 trunk/src/lang/spanish_MX.txt (2017-08-31 19:45:38 +0200 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from Eints:
13:45<@DorpsGek>spanish (mexican): 4 changes by Absay
13:45<andythenorth>yup
13:46<andythenorth>I think this is nonsense, someone argue I’m wrong? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6466
13:48<Wolf01>Must to go
13:48<Wolf01>BBL
13:49<@planetmaker>I commented, andythenorth ;)
13:50<andythenorth>thanks :)
13:51<andythenorth>this seems daft https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6411
13:51<andythenorth>aren’t there other ways to accomplish that?
13:53<adf88>BTPro servers do something like this
13:54<adf88>not moving to spec
13:54<adf88>but making company bancrupt
13:54<adf88>not sure how they do this
13:55<andythenorth>I’ve only played on servers that autopause when everyone goes to spectator
13:55<andythenorth>so problem seems to be solved
13:55<andythenorth>planetmaker: ^ how does coop do it?
13:57<Eddi|zuHause>wrt closed airports: maybe the plane symbol in the station sign could reflect that? (mind you, i've never used this feature)
13:57<andythenorth>it’s a good feature
13:57<andythenorth>one of those minor additions that adds a lot
13:57<andythenorth>but the airport display should just be solved in newgrf
13:58<andythenorth>be a good patch for LordAro eh? o_O
13:58<andythenorth>oh, but I’d have to make a test grf for it :(
13:58<andythenorth>and patch nml
13:58*andythenorth goes off that idea
13:58<andythenorth>@summon snail
13:58<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: out of chalk
13:59<@planetmaker>andythenorth, coop pauses server when there's less than two clients.
13:59<@planetmaker>in the company
14:00<@planetmaker>thus if there's only spectators, nothing moves
14:00<andythenorth>is that a game setting?
14:01<@planetmaker>andythenorth, but there's no mechanism to move people out of the company automatically
14:01<adf88>https://wiki.openttd.org/Autoclean_companies
14:01<@planetmaker>yes, autopause is a game setting
14:01<@planetmaker>what coop also does - and that's the soap (admin client) thing: move people w/o nickname set to spectator
14:01<andythenorth>so where does that leave 6411?
14:01<andythenorth>the game shouldn’t be growing more settings
14:02<@planetmaker>thus... can be closed, solvable via admin client in principle :)
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14:02<andythenorth>thanks
14:02<adf88>this "autoclean" mechanism
14:02<@planetmaker>you can monitor actions and move people to spectator, if they don't cause actions
14:02<@planetmaker>just I don't know any which supports that :)
14:02<adf88>seems to be a good substitute
14:03<@planetmaker>autoclean cleans a company which is not played for some time
14:03<adf88>but what actually "player activity" meany?
14:03<@planetmaker>longest is two years or so
14:03<adf88>mean?
14:03<@planetmaker>adf88: autoclean works on a company w/o a connected client
14:03<adf88>so no player or no actions?
14:03<adf88>no players, ok
14:04<@planetmaker>'no activity' is vague... and not well defined. an admin client can however monitor whether s/o does things.
14:04<adf88>missed!
14:04<@planetmaker>so... whether a player changes something, thus 'no activity' could to some degree be defined, I guess
14:04<@planetmaker>not sure I would want that, though :)
14:04<@planetmaker>in coop we just ask people to not idle when in the company :)
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>"no activity" may be tricky to detect, as there are purely client-side activities (like scrolling) that cannot be detected by the server
14:05<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, exactly
14:05<adf88>as I mentioned before, BTPro servers do this
14:05<@planetmaker>I would have been kicked every time I play :)
14:05<adf88>they probably have custom scripts hooked to the admin port
14:05<@planetmaker>they probably have a custom server :)
14:06<adf88>it may be like that :)
14:06<@planetmaker>but I think it can be done via admin client also on default servers
14:06<adf88>"activity" is defined
14:06<adf88>as "executing commands"
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14:06<adf88>not executing commands - not active
14:06<andythenorth>I want to tell snail this is silly :) https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5982
14:06<andythenorth>but he’s not here
14:07<Eddi|zuHause>it's not that bad
14:08<andythenorth>lots of things aren’t
14:08<andythenorth>it would be an intereresting gameplay quirk for a few games
14:08<andythenorth>then the novelty would wear off fast
14:08<andythenorth>snail would add a newgrf setting to disable it
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14:09<Eddi|zuHause>it could use some more refinement, like stations that have refuelling equipment, but at those stations the stop takes longer.
14:09<andythenorth>and meanwhile $someone has to spec it, write it, have a newgrf test case, update nml, and wiki
14:09<Eddi|zuHause>but that quickly gets out of hand :p
14:09<andythenorth>then we have to consider performance, and vehicles that might go so far they overflow the count
14:09<andythenorth>and trains with 512 engines in, and every single vehicle is counting distance
14:10<andythenorth>stuff :)
14:10<Eddi|zuHause>surely this is only calculated for the front engine
14:10<andythenorth>dunno, write a spec, put it on the ticket? o_O
14:10<andythenorth>I’ll happily leave it open if there’s interesrt
14:10<andythenorth>otherwise it’s just kibble
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14:11<Eddi|zuHause>surely, this is like 10loc
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>need to add member to train struct, code to increment in movement controller, code to reset in stations/depots and export to newgrf
14:12<andythenorth>stations OR depots XOR stations XOR depots?
14:13<andythenorth>can it be reset by waypoints?
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>no
14:13<andythenorth>maybe if the waypoint has a special flag?
14:13<andythenorth>the last one I am just being a jackass
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>no, use station with "no loading and no unloading"
14:13<andythenorth>the others were serious q.s
14:14<Eddi|zuHause>your OR/XOR question is not well-defined
14:14<andythenorth>I know :)
14:14<andythenorth>my logic is poor
14:14<andythenorth>your last commit looks around 2013 or so Eddi :)
14:14<andythenorth>time to dust off the keyboard? o_O
14:14<adf88>andythenorth: I'll be taking care of my FS tickets in near feature, you don't have to focus on them
14:15<Eddi|zuHause>not today
14:15<andythenorth>adf88: thanks, I’ll exclude them from my query
14:15<andythenorth>oh I can’t :P
14:15<adf88>sure
14:15<andythenorth>bloody FS
14:15<andythenorth>it’s quite…crude
14:20<andythenorth>this looks crap https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6149
14:20<andythenorth>closing
14:21<frosch123>it's for phones :)
14:24<andythenorth>it’s ugh
14:24<andythenorth>I use 2x UI zoom on HDPI screen
14:24<andythenorth>I don’t want to look at crappy bevels
14:24<andythenorth>1989 can have them back
14:26<Alkel_U3>so, will there be rework openttd gui to Material Dsign? :-)
14:26<andythenorth>that would be….work
14:26<andythenorth>ok, I’ve been polite about a lot of FS requests
14:26<andythenorth>but this is dumb as https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6033
14:26<andythenorth>(the first bullet, not the second)
14:27<andythenorth>wtf is the point of buying a station?
14:32<frosch123>infrasharing with fees
14:33<frosch123>no idea whether the current version of infrasharing includes fees
14:33<andythenorth>I’ve scrapped it
14:33<andythenorth>linked it to infra sharing thread
14:33<andythenorth>who uses timetables?
14:34<andythenorth>I don’t except for station waiting
14:34<andythenorth>https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6005
14:34<andythenorth>^ what is that asking for?
14:34<andythenorth>in a timetable I see “Travel (not timetabled)"
14:41<_dp_>something about timetables, who cares :p
14:42<_dp_>#notimetables
14:45<andythenorth>closing
14:47<andythenorth>afaict, Rubidium has said 'no'
14:47<andythenorth>so this is closeable https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6030
14:50<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i think the request is valid
14:50<Eddi|zuHause>i just don't see a way to implement it
14:51<andythenorth>Not a Current Goal
14:52<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think messing with the crossing/signal startup code is the right approach
14:52<Eddi|zuHause>maybe it needs a new "leave depot after <time> feature
14:52<_dp_>oh, so exiting depot is a signal code?
14:52<_dp_>now I get why it's so hard to fix
14:53<andythenorth>maybe we need to get more comfortable about saying no to excess complexity :)
14:53<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: it's the same code at work. the movement code loops through all vehicles, and whoever is the first to move wins
14:54<@Rubidium>it's dead easy to fix... just sort all vehicles by their lateness every cycle
14:54<andythenorth>:o
14:54<andythenorth>Rubidium arrived :)
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: but do fresh vehicles with a new startdate even have a lateness?
14:56<@Rubidium>I guess it's not that hard to add such a thing (negative lateness)
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: i think the lateness is set on arrival at the first station
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15:03<andythenorth>close? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5903. planetmaker provides a workaround
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15:05<_dp_>there is probably some way to do it with unix magic too :)
15:06<_dp_>https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/26728/prepending-a-timestamp-to-each-line-of-output-from-a-command
15:07<_dp_>that bug makes sense though, why don't it just print timestamp instead of requiring stupid workarounds
15:07<andythenorth>is the dedicated server always logged through a unix pipe? o_O
15:08*_dp_ never checked ttd server log for anything but crashes
15:08<LordAro>hmm
15:08<LordAro>the website's concept of "WEBTRANSLATOR" isn't eints, is it?
15:09<LordAro>there seems to be no trace of it in the website code
15:09<frosch123>no, it's wt3
15:09<_dp_>have 5Gb of logs though, so it's never too late to check them xD
15:09<frosch123>which was never publically released
15:09<LordAro>frosch123: hee
15:09*LordAro strips it out for now
15:10<andythenorth>eh? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5843
15:11<andythenorth>that’s just “no"
15:11<frosch123>hmm, if root login via ssh is forbidden, how to i scp a file from /root ?
15:11<andythenorth>why do we even have plane speed? :(
15:13*frosch123 enabled root login :p
15:13<_dp_>5843 is a nice setting to have but probably somewhere in a very very hidden place
15:14<LordAro>frosch123: ;-;
15:14<LordAro>you move it :p
15:14<_dp_>andythenorth, coz planes op
15:14<frosch123>LordAro: i only know how to run docker as root
15:14<LordAro>ick
15:16<andythenorth>crippling the plane speed in newgrf would be unacceptable I guess :P
15:16<_dp_>probably most useful case for 5843 is to get them balanced between different newgrfs that were never meant to work together
15:17<_dp_>or just do some crazy stuff xD
15:17<andythenorth>just re-compile the newgrfs :P
15:17<andythenorth>or write a better one
15:17<andythenorth>all newgrfs are crap anyway
15:17<_dp_>andythenorth, yeah, one and only try megagrf
15:18<_dp_>andythenorth, or, no, wait, one for each server :p
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15:24<andythenorth>I should build my web-based newgrf maker :P
15:24<andythenorth>but eh…why?
15:25<_dp_>hm... allow to embed newgrfs in savegame... that might be an easy way to overcome configuration-in-newgrf problem
15:25<@Rubidium>andythenorth: not because planetmaker provides a work around, but because it's a duplicate of FS#2339
15:25<@Rubidium>andythenorth: that's about about FS#5903
15:25<andythenorth>so it’s implemented?
15:25<_dp_>they'll have to be more capable of modifying stuff in other grfs to be really useful though
15:26<@Rubidium>andythenorth: yep
15:26<andythenorth>why is https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5903 raised in 2014 if it’s provided in 2008
15:26<andythenorth>seems daft
15:27<_dp_>haha, it really is (timestamps)
15:28<_dp_>logger: [2017-07-30 06:09:35] dbg: [net] Closed client connection 2
15:31<Eddi|zuHause> <frosch123> hmm, if root login via ssh is forbidden, how to i scp a file from /root ? <- can't you normal-login and su?
15:32<Eddi|zuHause>not sure how you'd scp from within an ssh session, though
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>it feels like that should be possible
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15:37<_dp_>hmm, something's wrong, if I just start vanilla ttd server I get no timestamps %)
15:38<@peter1138>cp file from /root to ~, then sftp from ~
15:39<andythenorth>doesn’t pressing ‘del’ solve this? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5757
15:40<_dp_>andythenorth, don't they appear one by one?
15:40<Alkel_U3>something like "ssh sshhost 'sudo cat /root/file' > localfile" should work, assuming paswordless sudo.
15:41<andythenorth>_dp_: now I have to fricking test it in the game eh :P
15:42<Alkel_U3>it probably has a nicer solution, though :-)
15:43<Alkel_U3>andythenorth: you would 'solve' this by holding down spacebar but than you might also lose other kind of messages
15:44<Alkel_U3>s/messages/news and notifications/
15:44<andythenorth>eh, they self-close in my test
15:44<andythenorth>cba to understand what this is
15:45<andythenorth>can anyone add a screenshot to the task explaining it?
15:45<_dp_>andythenorth, I got it, there is show_date_in_logs setting
15:46<andythenorth>otherwise…closing 5757
15:46<andythenorth>don’t understand it
15:46<andythenorth>_dp_: I’ll add comment to ticket thanks :)
15:47<_dp_>andythenorth, probably he wants to delete all queued messages so they never even show
15:47<andythenorth>makes no sense to me
15:47<_dp_>andythenorth, also there might be some message settings in play too
15:47<andythenorth>faff
15:49<andythenorth>I think this would look bad on minimap https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5710
15:50<andythenorth>want to close
15:50<_dp_>hmm.. does in really keep authority rating from SE? https://www.reddit.com/r/openttd/comments/6x8mbi/help_with_trainlines_in_cities/
15:51<_dp_>andythenorth, 5710 aggreed, ugly and useless on minimap
15:51<_dp_>andythenorth, but somewhat useful as zoning
15:51<andythenorth>valid in game somehow
15:51<andythenorth>visual overlay :P
15:51<andythenorth>we lack nice tile-based overlays :)
15:51<andythenorth>they would be…neat
15:51<_dp_>definitely
15:51<_dp_>missing them so much too
15:51<andythenorth>town zones
15:51<andythenorth>cargo acceptance
15:51<andythenorth>cargo production
15:52<andythenorth>health of local economy, using NoEconomy byte on tile :P
15:52<_dp_>andythenorth, anything from zoning patch and much more :p
15:52<_dp_>zoning is basically overlays, just done in a bad way
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15:53<_dp_>I even have overlay for industries where they can be placed
15:53<_dp_>quite useful on ecs for example
15:53<_dp_>lags like crazy tho
15:53<frosch123>_dp_: if it does, then for company 1 :p
15:54<frosch123>(wrt. scenario editor town rating)
15:55*andythenorth aiming for 350 FS before bed
15:56<andythenorth>frosch123: peter1138 said this can’t be closed just by putting it in known_bugs :x :P
15:56<andythenorth>https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6114
15:56<andythenorth>I think it can be closed as 'feature'
15:56<@peter1138>feel free to ignore me
15:56<@peter1138>just feels weird
15:57<andythenorth>it’s nice to have contrasting opinions eh
15:57<frosch123>we use known_bugs to document limitations
15:57<frosch123>it fits well with the other issues listed there
15:57<andythenorth>implement https://bugs.openttd.org/task/4792
15:57<andythenorth>and don’t use the oil rig station if you don’t want to share
15:58<andythenorth>or raise land and build a dock
15:58<_dp_>sharing via neutral station is ok for "feature" but it kind of breaks cargodist if I understand that bug correctly
15:58<andythenorth>[shrug]
15:58<andythenorth>life is not a tidy maths problem
15:58<andythenorth>nor is games
16:02<andythenorth>Close - pony too far? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5689
16:03<_dp_>> as well as the desperation of needing a better aircraft, and anxiously awaiting the announcements to see whether one becomes available.
16:04<_dp_>o rly
16:05<andythenorth>can’t see how it can be done tbh
16:05<andythenorth>unless newgrfs are only added after the game settings are configured and the map is generated
16:05<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: cargodist is fine with shared stations. just payment is terrible, also, cargodist will try to route EVERYTHING through that one link
16:05<andythenorth>adding newgrf after map gen is…total bollocks
16:05<andythenorth>so eh, no
16:05<andythenorth>static info provided by newgrf about each item: maybe
16:06<andythenorth>or authors can use the ‘url to project site’ function the way it was intended http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/get_started.html
16:06<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, as it looks to me your sentence contradicts itself :p
16:06<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, how's it fine if it routes everything there
16:07*_dp_ never played cargodist
16:07<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: not everything everything, just a lot of stuff, because it's the only link connecting two large networks
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>probably with poor connectivity
16:08<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, %)
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>if you connect two large networks, basically immediately half the cargo that used to be routed internally will now try to go through that link (and back)
16:09<andythenorth>frosch123: you commented here w.r.t grtopia - was the intent that authors provide static info per item? Or run each newgrf in a sandbox and extract info automatically? Or something else? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5689
16:09<andythenorth>grftopia *
16:09<andythenorth>_dp_: just use point-to-point only with cdist :)
16:10<frosch123>andythenorth: run grf in sandbox, check what items it adds, including intro dates for vehicles
16:10<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: grftopia was meant to provide a sandbox for newgrf-initialization while the title game is still running
16:10<andythenorth>I’ll leave it open
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16:11<andythenorth>I think it would be nice, but generate a lot of bug reports from newgrf authors
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: then it would be easy to check whether there are vehicles available at the selected start date. and stuff...
16:11<_dp_>I've no idea how newgrfs works but having to run it just to see what vehicle it provides sounds terribly wrong :/
16:11<andythenorth>it would have to wait for the full combination of grfs to be determined
16:11<andythenorth>then generate a manifest?
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: how else would you determine it? what is actually provided may depend on game settings, grf parameters, other grfs loaded, ...
16:13<andythenorth>and we might let GS loose on the grfs in future :P
16:13<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, just show what's in current grf and not worry about game stuff?
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: like a train grf may omit wagons if they carry no cargo (i.e. no industry set provides this cargo)
16:14<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, it's grf viewer, not game configuration viewer
16:14<frosch123>andythenorth: see, we are moving towards new compile farm, then we can move towards c++11, then we can move towards thread_local, then we can run newgrf in threads :p
16:14<andythenorth>ha
16:14<andythenorth>_dp_: grfs depend on grfs
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: how about easter egg vehicles that the grf author wants to hide from that list?
16:15<andythenorth>what about needing railtypes for the vehicles
16:15<andythenorth>and needing vehicles for the railtypes to appear
16:15<andythenorth>lawks
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: and again, a train wagon viewer would be incomplete if it didn't show which cargos the train wagon could load. but you can't know the cargos it could load if you didn't specify an industry set
16:17<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, that sounds like a very weird case. isn't vehicle list easily accessible in game anyway (just cheat to future)?
16:17<andythenorth>toolbar is fine, don’t re-order :) https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5591
16:17<andythenorth>ain’t broken
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: no, some vehicles are never available.
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: other vehicles change shape/look/stats depending on which engine they are attached to
16:18<andythenorth>some of this is due to some very poor choices
16:18<andythenorth>in hindsight
16:18<andythenorth>great choices at the time :P
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16:19<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: and some vehicle stats may depend on parameters. you can't determine them if you don't properly load the grf
16:19<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, you seem to be overthinking it, just show something, doesn't have to solve all the ambiguities
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: because someone invented action6/7/9/D
16:20<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, yeye and some stuff is stored in savegame and there is no guarantee that it's not modified after newgrf init :p
16:20<andythenorth>authors will report that we have introduced a flawed feature
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: you seem to be underthinking it. what you propose is probably very useless
16:21<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, possibly, at least I definitely have no use for it xD
16:21<_dp_>if I want list of vehicles I know where to find it
16:21<andythenorth>I have a list of 29 FS requests from george, which he has, completely politely, described as ‘required'
16:22<andythenorth>many of these relate to dynamic vehicle behaviour depending on consist, age, game date, cargo refit etc
16:23<andythenorth>any newgrf viewer is going to spawn a bunch more feature requests or bug reports from (guessing here, not slandering anyone) george, michael, snail et al
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16:23<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: if you went through the grf, and showed a sprite for every action 3 (which sprite? purchase window? you can't really determine that without "loading" the grf), you immediately get requests to show articulated vehicles properly
16:23<@peter1138>do they still try to make stuff compatible with ttdpatch?
16:23<andythenorth>somewhere peter1138 put a proposal for a static image per vehicle
16:23<andythenorth>peter1138: no I think most gave that up
16:24<andythenorth>afaict
16:24<@peter1138>cos with the amount of engine slots in ottd a lot of dynamic stuff isn't necessary
16:24<y2000rtc>Hi there, question. Do you know if someone will release next version of OpenTTD?
16:24<@peter1138>engine grouping maybe :p
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>no
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>someone might release a next version
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>but we never know until someone does
16:26<andythenorth>y2000rtc what version do you have currently?
16:26<_dp_>it might even be in April :p
16:26<y2000rtc>1.7.1
16:26<andythenorth>ok you’re all up to date :)
16:26<andythenorth>congrats
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16:28<andythenorth>there are changes since 1.7.1
16:28<andythenorth>they usually get released April 1 or so
16:29<y2000rtc>I want to start with adjusting of grf files for graphics of rails and trains (engines, vagons). But how to start with that? Is here anyone who still remember his start with grf? :D I would like to understand which tools to use for that, how,... Any ideas, links? I don't want to wadte your time. Only need to have direction.
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16:30<_dp_>I remember it being pretty straightforward
16:30<Alkel_U3>this is probably a suitable entry point https://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NMLTutorial
16:31<andythenorth>also https://www.tt-forums.net/viewforum.php?f=68
16:32<Alkel_U3>oh wait, did you say adjusting? That would be the wrong link, then
16:33<y2000rtc>I already used this portal and I have to say that is not so easy for to understand. I will check right now if any news were grow up. Short quedtion. I would like to change only rail#, I would like to use rails with different speed (exist) but with the same graphics (slowest one - old school of TTD) Any ideas how to do it?
16:33<andythenorth>you need a railtypes grf
16:33<andythenorth>there is an example one in the nml examples somewhere :P
16:34<@planetmaker>swedischrails basically is an example
16:34<@planetmaker>it was the prototype for both, nml and railtypes :)
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16:40<andythenorth>ach, wtf are userbits? o_O https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5460
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>don't close that
16:41<andythenorth>I’m not
16:41<andythenorth>trying to understand what it is
16:41<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: basically, every vehicle has a user (as in grf-author) defined bitfield, but you can only acces an ORed version of that over all vehicles in the train, not an individual vehicle
16:41<andythenorth>where are the docs for this?
16:42<andythenorth>I remember reading about user bits a long time ago, but they’re not useful
16:42<andythenorth>now I can’t find the docs
16:42<andythenorth>train prop 25?
16:43<andythenorth>accessed via var 42
16:43<andythenorth>what’s the purpose?
16:43<Eddi|zuHause>that's probably it
16:44<andythenorth>what possible use is it? :)
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: say you have dining cars, with this you can check whether the train has one dining car in it
16:45<Eddi|zuHause>every dining car would set bit X in this property
16:45<andythenorth>without having to query every vehicle in consist?
16:45<Eddi|zuHause>and if var 42 has bit X set, you have a dining car in the train
16:45<andythenorth>remind me of that when I code dining cars
16:46<andythenorth>I was going to just use var 60, like a simple person
16:46<andythenorth>https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/VariationalAction2/Vehicles#Count_Veh.ID_occurence_.2860.29
16:47<andythenorth>so the benefit there is the OR
16:47<andythenorth>why throw that all away with FS 5460?
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>you could do that, but you have to hard-code each vehicle-ID of a dining car
16:47<andythenorth>that’s trivial
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>if you wanted dining cars in different generations and stuff
16:47<andythenorth>the compile does it
16:47<andythenorth>people should get a better compiler tbh
16:47<andythenorth>instead of distorting the game
16:48<andythenorth>anyway, why does snail want to throw away the useful part, and check it per vehicle?
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>still, this would involve looping over the train multiple times
16:49<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i don't remember what snail wanted this for (we probably discussed it), but say you wanted to check whether the last wagon is a caboose...
16:49<andythenorth>check the ID of the last vehicle
16:49<andythenorth>stop adding metadata, just use data
16:49<Eddi|zuHause>i vaguely remember something about heating systems, but that might have been george
16:49<y2000rtc>Thanks to all, I'm going to go study your links. :D See you
16:50<andythenorth>I’ll ask snail directly, instead of guessing :)
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16:51<andythenorth>snail has mail :P
16:51<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: again like with the previous example, that may be lots of IDs
16:52<frosch123>andythenorth: when i told you about newgrf functors the other day, i was refering to that task
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>instead of one easily defined bit
16:52<andythenorth>yup, I’ve mailed snail
16:53<andythenorth>it’s open
16:53<andythenorth>the armchair spec for OpenTTD is glorious eh
16:53<andythenorth>think of the beautiful things we’ll be able to build
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16:58<milek7>huh? openttd spec is nice
16:58<milek7>well documented
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>milek7: i think with "armchair specs" he means stuff that is suggested but not implemented
16:59<andythenorth>he does
16:59<andythenorth>all it takes is finding people who want to code it
16:59<andythenorth>funny that I got all my ponies
16:59<andythenorth>but others don’t
16:59<andythenorth>why is that then? :P
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>you're more annoying than them :p
17:01<andythenorth>I think you wanted ‘relentless’ :P
17:02<frosch123>andythenorth: i wouldn't agree to all random newgrf vars which are requested
17:03<frosch123>80% of industry and house vars are completely useless
17:03<frosch123>newgrf features should solve more than one ad-hoc problem
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17:05<andythenorth>frosch123: feel free to close some :)
17:06<andythenorth>I am going to close this for foobar https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5869
17:06<frosch123>that's my point... there is no yes/no to those requests
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17:06<frosch123>the correct answer is "different"
17:07<frosch123>collect all vehicle related requests, and make a shared solution
17:07<andythenorth>I try to group related requests and rewrite, iff I can see a pattern
17:07<frosch123>each suggestion on its own is crap
17:08<andythenorth>the more actual crap I close, the more patterns are visible in what’s left
17:08<frosch123>that's why i hate requests like "i need a flag here", because it does not tell you the real intention
17:08<andythenorth>there’s a lot of ‘speak your brains’ in FS, or was :P
17:08<frosch123>it's the product of already abusing 3 other weird vars and trying to squeeze in some even more weird one
17:08<andythenorth>:P
17:08<andythenorth>I would file most of them under ‘design your set better'
17:09<andythenorth>meanwhile, what’s the status on this https://bugs.openttd.org/task/4758
17:09<andythenorth>that’s what I ran into earlier this year with FIRS?
17:09<andythenorth>[all solved now]
17:12<frosch123>D0xx and DCxx string are all the same, except where they are the direct callback return value
17:12<frosch123>i have no idea whether that task still applies
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17:13<andythenorth>I am not inclined to test it :P
17:13<andythenorth>george thinks it’s a non-issue now
17:13<frosch123>oh, wait, i remember something
17:14<frosch123>there is some other fs task where i attached a hacky fix
17:15<andythenorth>errr…https://bugs.openttd.org/task/4508
17:15<andythenorth>so…I can do simple maths in my head
17:15<andythenorth>or in a calculator
17:15<andythenorth>so no
17:16<andythenorth>also…scripts supersede that completely
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: well, industries show %, why shouldn't towns?
17:17<frosch123>i found the diff, but i think it was a case of andy-too-lazy-to-create-fs-task
17:17<andythenorth>because not needed?
17:18<andythenorth>frosch123: is relevant to attach to 4758?
17:18<andythenorth>or I create a new one
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: also why should i calculate in my head if the computer does it way better/faster?
17:18<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: got a patch? o_O
17:18<frosch123>http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/diffs/stack.diff <- that's the only thing i can think of in context of FS#4758
17:19<_dp_>4508 looks like a job for GS
17:19<andythenorth>I am hovering over the ‘reopen’ button Eddi|zuHause :)
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: patch? me? gui stuff? have you learned nothing? :p
17:19<andythenorth>industry % is a legacy of the default industry growth mechanic
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17:20<andythenorth>frosch123: I’d have to search logs to find out what our purpose was there :P
17:20<frosch123>andythenorth: eddi is already busy with not doing something in case he discovers something about nekomaster
17:20<andythenorth>cryptic :P
17:21<andythenorth>367 left :)
17:21<frosch123>andythenorth: the diff is from 2016-12-22 :)
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>oh, i already forgot i didn't want to do anything about nekomaster
17:21<andythenorth>1 for each day of the year
17:21<andythenorth>2 on christmas, 2 on easter
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>i'm getting old...
17:21<frosch123>i think it was about cargo amounts
17:21<andythenorth>I wanted to show them in industry window cb
17:21<andythenorth>but you found a better way
17:22<andythenorth>and I think it didn’t work anyway
17:22<andythenorth>or I ran out of stack
17:22<andythenorth>something like that
17:22<Eddi|zuHause>"stack" is a serious misnomer there
17:23<andythenorth>this is…interesting https://bugs.openttd.org/task/4492
17:23<andythenorth>bridges I have never made newgrf of
17:23<andythenorth>if I did, it would be a wonderful newgrf
17:23<andythenorth>really something very special
17:23<andythenorth>I’d have the best people work on it
17:25<frosch123>eddi?
17:25<andythenorth>why not
17:25<andythenorth>https://bugs.openttd.org/task/4322 <- the suggestion is not likely to be a winning one?
17:26<andythenorth>other routes seem to be preferred
17:29<frosch123>i would like a heightmap preview with some sliders to define a curve for greyscale->height translation
17:29<Eddi|zuHause>what's the problem there, anyway? just run the mapgen and convert it to heightmap?
17:29<frosch123>the preview should also contain highlight in places where the slope is too steep
17:30<frosch123>(more than 1 height difference between tiles)
17:30<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: he wants a faster game start
17:30<andythenorth>he/she, non-obvious gender
17:30<frosch123>andythenorth: in other words, it's the thing i always mention when someone talks about redesigning the mapgen gui :p
17:31<Eddi|zuHause>paint the normal heightmap in shades of green, and the error bits in shades of red?
17:31<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: "they"
17:31<frosch123>something like that
17:31<frosch123>but it would require loading of heightmaps with something not as bad as _switch_mode
17:32<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know why people make the language about gender-neutral pronouns so complicated
17:32<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: heightmaptopia?
17:35<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: is it easier in german?
17:36<frosch123>haha, no :p
17:36<andythenorth>we get very confused about it in UK english
17:36<frosch123>english has it easier by two magnitudes
17:36<frosch123>at least your job descriptions are neutral
17:37<andythenorth>somewhat
17:37<andythenorth>policeman
17:37<andythenorth>male nurse
17:38<frosch123>though the admin at work figured out a gender-neutral method by abbreviating words
17:38<andythenorth>headmistress
17:38<andythenorth>binman
17:40<frosch123>instead of "dear coworkersladies and coworkermen", he just writes "dear cowo."
17:40<andythenorth>https://bugs.openttd.org/task/3132
17:40<andythenorth>^ why?
17:40<andythenorth>can already change 0D
17:40<andythenorth>why bother with 0E as well?
17:40<frosch123>andythenorth: exactly :) it's a work around for not being able to return 32bits in some other callback"
17:40<andythenorth>closing that
17:41<frosch123>it's "i do not have enough bits here, let's add some over there instead"
17:41<andythenorth>yeah no
17:41<andythenorth>running costs, broadly, don’t need to change, ever per vehicle instance
17:41<andythenorth>it’s a bad idea
17:50<V453000>cowoslugs?
17:50<andythenorth>always
17:50<andythenorth>ok christmas is cancelled
17:50<V453000>slugnurses?
17:50<andythenorth>only 364 FS left
17:50<andythenorth>no christmas
17:50<andythenorth>no ponies
17:51<frosch123>V453000: "snail" is actually a slang term for a hot lady
17:52<frosch123>in german
17:52<frosch123>noone dares to use "slug" in that context :p
17:52<V453000>that's not even surprising for germans XD
17:52<Eddi|zuHause><frosch123> at least your job descriptions are neutral <-- i always find it funny how english is much more gender-neutral than german, but they have the exact same discussions about not being gender-neutral
17:52<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: perhaps the germans just gave up :p
17:52<Eddi|zuHause>seems to me like the perfect reason why the language being gender-neutral has no effect on gender equality whatsoever
17:55<andythenorth>so the heightmap preview was non-close? o_O
17:56<andythenorth>valid?
17:56<frosch123>yep, if i would care about votes, it would be one of the tasks i would vote for :p
17:57<andythenorth>I would sooner fix the map gen, but eh :)
17:57<frosch123>i consider the preview a prerequisite for that
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17:58<andythenorth>plausible
17:59<_dp_>can nicely server as water borders preview as well
17:59<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: you forgot that "cow" is also a slang term for a ... lady :p
18:00<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: horse, mare, stallion all have meanings, but different
18:02<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: anyway, "ox" is used the same way as "cow"; but the gender-neutral "snail" is only used for women
18:03<andythenorth>https://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?/forums/topic/153832-mark-v-tank/
18:03*_dp_ read "osx" at first
18:05<andythenorth>such bed time
18:05<andythenorth>nobody open any FS overnight :P
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i'm not sure how genders work with snails
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: also, snails are female in german :p
18:06<andythenorth>aren’t snails hermaphrodites?
18:08<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: i have no idea why some animals have neutral and gender-specific terms, while other animals only have one term
18:08<frosch123>maybe it's about domestic animals
18:09<Eddi|zuHause>lots of wild animals have gender-specific terms
18:09<andythenorth>bye
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18:10<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: hedgehogs do not
18:11<Eddi|zuHause>but deer
18:11<frosch123>well, stags are dangeour
18:14<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: maybe gender is just less obvious for hedgehogs
18:15<frosch123>it's pretty obvious for lions
18:15<frosch123>yet you do not use the male cat term
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18:25<Eddi|zuHause>there's still a female term
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18:27<Eddi|zuHause>also, old germans (as in > 2000 years ago) probably didn't encounter lots of lions
18:28<frosch123>ducks may be the solution
18:28<@planetmaker>Ente, Enterich?
18:28<frosch123>we should just apply the duck-approach of using the postfix for the male term
18:28<frosch123>planetmaker: putze, putzerich :p
18:28<@planetmaker>:D
18:28<@planetmaker>der/die/das Putze :P
18:29<frosch123>i always wondered about hebammerich
18:29<frosch123>are there any males doing that job?
18:31<frosch123>anyway, i wrote the dockerfiles for source and documentation bundles, and for the generic linux binary
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18:32<Eddi|zuHause>duckerichfiles?
18:32<frosch123>let's hope that the win part was magically already finished
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18:32<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: rich text format
18:33<Eddi|zuHause>is this the word association game now? :p
18:33<frosch123>sounds appropiate for 0:33
18:45<@planetmaker>I think there's no male word for Hebamme
18:45<@planetmaker>Also not for Amme
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19:01<Eddi|zuHause>i feel like there probably was one, but it's fallen into disuse over the centuries
19:01<frosch123>in the original meaning, i doubt there was one :p
19:02<frosch123>like godfather is the closest match
19:02<frosch123>+ly
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19:19<Wolf01>Nice, this lightning strike was close
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19:33<Eddi|zuHause>what happened to unplugging all devices during thunderstorms?
19:33<Wolf01>Lol
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19:36<Wolf01>Since it's already finished (about 5 minutes) it's more the time I take to shutdown and unplug everything than the thunderstorm duration, and I choose to take a risk
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19:42<Wolf01>BTW I estimate the risk by looking at lightningmaps.org, if it seem too bad I'll take time to unplug my stuff
20:00<Eddi|zuHause>there are actually devices you can put into your main house power supply that mitigate the effects of nearby lightning hits (be sure to include all copper lines from the outside, e.g. phone/tv/...
20:00<Eddi|zuHause>)
20:01<Eddi|zuHause>just don't rely on those plug-in thingies, they do practically nothing
20:01<Wolf01>I know, I have one, but I'm not sure it works
20:02<Wolf01>I have one at the main switch
20:03<Eddi|zuHause>there's usually 3 layers, one for high peaks, one for medium ones that the high one lets through, and one for small ones that the high and medium ones let through
20:03<Eddi|zuHause>the plug-in ones are usually for the 3rd layer
20:03<Eddi|zuHause>which is fairly useless if the other two layers are missing
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20:15<Wolf01>'night
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---Logclosed Fri Sep 01 00:00:37 2017