| --- | Log | opened Sat Sep 02 00:00:39 2017 |
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| 01:49 | <andythenorth> | o/ |
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| 02:44 | <LordAro> | o/ |
| 02:52 | <andythenorth> | moin |
| 03:01 | <@Alberth> | o/ |
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| 03:05 | <andythenorth> | @summon Wolf01 |
| 03:05 | <@DorpsGek> | andythenorth: out of chalk |
| 03:09 | <@Alberth> | wait a few hours :p |
| 03:11 | <andythenorth> | what does it even mean? o_O https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5695 |
| 03:14 | <LordAro> | just a refactot |
| 03:14 | <LordAro> | probably harmless, if a bit redundant |
| 03:14 | <andythenorth> | good, or reject? |
| 03:15 | <LordAro> | that decision needs a dev :p |
| 03:21 | * | andythenorth wasn’t aware GS couldn’t already do this :) https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6381 |
| 03:21 | <andythenorth> | _dp_: ^ tested it |
| 03:25 | <andythenorth> | nah https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5981 |
| 03:25 | <andythenorth> | big UI change, based on a thread with no clear outcome |
| 03:28 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i wouldn't be so quick to throw that out |
| 03:28 | <andythenorth> | I’ll rephrase |
| 03:28 | <andythenorth> | I’m not testing that :P |
| 03:29 | <andythenorth> | I’ve hit the end of easily-rejected FS |
| 03:29 | <andythenorth> | I’m working down the list of 64 FS categorised as patch |
| 03:30 | <andythenorth> | seeing if they are testable by me |
| 03:30 | <andythenorth> | common problems with testing: |
| 03:30 | <andythenorth> | - not clear what the intended change would be, so no criteria to test |
| 03:31 | <andythenorth> | - hg patch queues (I refuse, $someone else can do those) |
| 03:31 | <andythenorth> | - codechanges/refactoring with no obvious gameplay result to test |
| 03:32 | <andythenorth> | - patches don’t apply on repo tip I’m using for testing |
| 03:32 | <andythenorth> | - patches are for an OS I don’t have |
| 03:34 | <LordAro> | that's funny because the patch queues are the ones more likely to be accepted :p |
| 03:34 | <andythenorth> | is that historically true? |
| 03:34 | <andythenorth> | I haven’t been through closed patches |
| 03:35 | <LordAro> | i've no idea, but devs very much prefer the smaller individual changes over the large single patch |
| 03:36 | <andythenorth> | presumably I can apply them in git, I just have to read the revs to get them in the right order? |
| 03:36 | <andythenorth> | or are they order-independent? |
| 03:36 | <LordAro> | hopefully the files are prefixed by numbers |
| 03:36 | <LordAro> | so it's obvious which order they are in |
| 03:37 | <LordAro> | `git am` *might* be able to apply them |
| 03:37 | <LordAro> | i did that with ic's improved timetables, but it required some manual steps |
| 03:37 | <andythenorth> | https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5284 |
| 03:37 | <andythenorth> | presumably 00 is applied, then 01? |
| 03:37 | <LordAro> | yeah |
| 03:38 | <andythenorth> | anything else would seem daft |
| 03:38 | <LordAro> | :p |
| 03:41 | <andythenorth> | seems to be a lot of stuff around filtering |
| 03:41 | <andythenorth> | filter news, filter stations, filter vehicles, filter industry |
| 03:41 | <andythenorth> | e.g. https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5709 |
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| 03:45 | <@Alberth> | 5695 (Patch to make filter_funcs members of BuildVehicleWindow ) doesn't look terribly interesting |
| 03:46 | <@Alberth> | just move some code in the same file |
| 03:46 | <andythenorth> | basically a no-op? |
| 03:47 | <@Alberth> | it's now a function in the file, it becomes a function of that class |
| 03:47 | <andythenorth> | at work, we effectively ban changes like that |
| 03:47 | <@Alberth> | but we have static filter functions all over the place |
| 03:47 | <andythenorth> | it’s cost to QA |
| 03:47 | <andythenorth> | for no customer benefit |
| 03:47 | <@Alberth> | and many of them are shared |
| 03:47 | <andythenorth> | tends to originate with less experienced engineers |
| 03:47 | <andythenorth> | looks harmless |
| 03:48 | <andythenorth> | but sometimes has unintended consequences which show up later |
| 03:48 | <@Alberth> | by "hiding" them in the class, you reduce the chance that it will be found for re-use |
| 03:48 | <Eddi|zuHause> | it would be useful if we were to move towards some cleaner object-oriented model. but just randomly moving it without following such a larger architectural goal is probably useless |
| 03:49 | <@Alberth> | I am not even sure you can make a clean OO model for this |
| 03:49 | <@Alberth> | sharing stuff isn't a storing point in OO :p |
| 03:49 | <@Alberth> | *strong |
| 03:50 | <@Alberth> | 6381 (SetRating) is not implemented currently, and I am very doubtful it should be |
| 03:51 | <@Alberth> | ie the first thing that happens is that some one will write "outstandingGS" that pushes all cities to outstanding rating no matter what you do |
| 03:52 | <Eddi|zuHause> | why is that a bad thing? |
| 03:52 | <Eddi|zuHause> | people request that all the time |
| 03:52 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and the answer is always "use magic bulldozer", which does a bit too much |
| 03:53 | <@Alberth> | let's just have a completely flat world without any obstacle |
| 03:53 | <@Alberth> | it defeats an obstacle in the game |
| 03:53 | <@Alberth> | just like signals on bridges |
| 03:53 | <Eddi|zuHause> | so? lots of other obstacles left |
| 03:53 | <Eddi|zuHause> | people can (and do) already create completely flat maps |
| 03:54 | <Eddi|zuHause> | not all people, but some people |
| 03:54 | <@Alberth> | sure, and that's fine |
| 03:54 | <@Alberth> | but why do you use water if you don't want obstacles? |
| 03:54 | <Eddi|zuHause> | it's a game. people should be able to remove the annoying limitations of a game and keep the interesting ones |
| 03:55 | <Eddi|zuHause> | what's annoying and what's interesting varies between people and playstyles |
| 03:56 | <Eddi|zuHause> | "this doesn't align with <random dev>'s playstyle" is not a good reason to reject gameplay features |
| 03:56 | <@Alberth> | so we just accept any patch? |
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| 03:57 | <Eddi|zuHause> | non sequitur |
| 03:58 | <@Alberth> | ie ignore TE and power on engines patch?> |
| 03:58 | <@Alberth> | I mean, it's just horrible annoying that steam trains do'n to 40000 km/h |
| 03:59 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Alberth: if enough people requested that? why not? |
| 03:59 | <@Alberth> | disable crashes en ignore signals patch? |
| 03:59 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Alberth: that's a perfectly fine cheat. |
| 04:01 | <@Alberth> | cheats are just a way to hide some functions that we like less, imho |
| 04:01 | <@Alberth> | move all cheats to plain functions in the game? |
| 04:02 | <@Alberth> | I don't see any border where to guide on, any more |
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| 04:02 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Alberth: i'd split it into "disable crashes of trains with road vehicles" [possibly vehicle breaks down instead], and "disable crashes between two trains" [trains behave like road vehicles] |
| 04:03 | <@Alberth> | yeah, there are a zillion variations how to do it |
| 04:03 | <@Alberth> | I was just dumping random weird ideas to find a border |
| 04:03 | <@Alberth> | but that failed |
| 04:04 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i don't think we'll come to an agreement about this. |
| 04:05 | <@Alberth> | I wasn't going to reject 6381, but I won't add it either |
| 04:05 | <@Alberth> | seems likely, Eddi :) |
| 04:06 | <LordAro> | Alberth: isn't the whole point of andy's close spree that doing nothing with an issue is bad? |
| 04:06 | <LordAro> | close it or engage in some sort of dialogue about it |
| 04:06 | <@Alberth> | any picture for 5981 ? |
| 04:06 | <Eddi|zuHause> | LordAro: how was this not a dialog? :p |
| 04:06 | <@Alberth> | not at FS, I think |
| 04:06 | <LordAro> | Eddi|zuHause: yeah, which ended in "i'm not going to do anything with it" |
| 04:07 | <@Alberth> | you can close issues as much as you like, but that doesn't stop the stream |
| 04:07 | <Eddi|zuHause> | LordAro: yeah, next step would be looking for a dev willing to take it on |
| 04:08 | <@Alberth> | but nobody does that |
| 04:08 | <@Alberth> | so it sits there, and then it's our fault |
| 04:08 | <@Alberth> | oh joy |
| 04:09 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yeah, we might not have enough devs, and not the infrastructure/coordination to regularly discuss open requests like that |
| 04:12 | <andythenorth> | dialogue eh |
| 04:12 | * | andythenorth might have a product for that :P |
| 04:23 | <andythenorth> | it’s ok, any issue over 3 years old naturally dies |
| 04:23 | <andythenorth> | eventually the number of FS is ~constant, because they’re dying at rate they’re added |
| 04:29 | <Eddi|zuHause> | that logic does not quite add up :p |
| 04:31 | <LordAro> | Alberth: i don't mean to assign blame at all. it just seems pointless to leave it there to do nothing if it's just going to rot until an andy comes along and deletes it |
| 04:33 | <LordAro> | i'm always reasonably impressed when i come across a github project that's actually on top of its issue count, and amused when i come across something like https://github.com/ansible/ansible/issues |
| 04:34 | <andythenorth> | Eddi|zuHause: I’m assuming a constant rate of addition per day |
| 04:34 | <andythenorth> | and an equivalent constant rate of closure |
| 04:34 | <Eddi|zuHause> | exactly. |
| 04:35 | <andythenorth> | I think that’s testable :P |
| 04:39 | <andythenorth> | Alberth: for the record, I like 6381, I think GS should pretty much have carte-blanche :) |
| 04:39 | <andythenorth> | delegating behaviours we don’t like to content is a good approach |
| 04:41 | <@Alberth> | LordAro: if the issues address things I see as problem too, it's simple to "be on top of them" |
| 04:41 | <@Alberth> | in OpenTTD, it's much like the suggestions forum, you get basically everything |
| 04:42 | <@Alberth> | ie the more mature the project, the more diverse the issues, as core stuff is running |
| 04:43 | <LordAro> | that's true |
| 04:43 | <LordAro> | perhaps it needs to be bundled under a larger "sandbox mode" issue |
| 04:43 | <LordAro> | in this particular case |
| 04:43 | <@Alberth> | even more sand than we have now? :D |
| 04:44 | <LordAro> | :D |
| 04:46 | <@Alberth> | Eddi|zuHause: I never applied for reviewing and judging random patches that have no meaning to me, and I think that holds for all |
| 04:47 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Alberth: lots of people end up doing things they didn't apply for :p |
| 04:47 | <@Alberth> | so it's basically down to the devs interest |
| 04:47 | <@Alberth> | if I get paid, I don't care (much) :p |
| 04:48 | <andythenorth> | I was thinking same other day, in a positive way |
| 04:48 | <andythenorth> | was going to reply in one of recent forum threads, but didn’t find correct words |
| 04:48 | <andythenorth> | variation of “what I make, I make for me" |
| 04:49 | <andythenorth> | I like that there are players, and I like have players use my stuff |
| 04:49 | <andythenorth> | but my objective when I started wasn’t popularity or download counts |
| 04:49 | <@Alberth> | that doesn't hold much for me, I am more interested in solving the technical problem |
| 04:49 | <@Alberth> | if other like it too, that's bonus |
| 04:50 | <@Alberth> | but that's also a personal thing, different people have different goals |
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| 04:53 | <@Alberth> | I think if you want to have a dev look at it, you have to "sell" it to some extent |
| 04:54 | <LordAro> | s/"sell" it/nag them constantly/ |
| 04:54 | <LordAro> | ;) |
| 04:55 | <@Alberth> | ie the big UI change 5981, it doesn't even have a screenshot |
| 04:56 | <@Alberth> | so I have to make a clone, get the patch, apply, compile, run, find the windows that changed from the patch file, and then look |
| 04:56 | <andythenorth> | I’m intending, if I can be arsed |
| 04:56 | <andythenorth> | to make a guide to getting a patch through |
| 04:56 | <andythenorth> | but that somewhat pre-supposes active reviewers :) |
| 04:56 | <@Alberth> | then unapply the patch, compile, run the game, and look again to check what exactly changed |
| 04:57 | <@Alberth> | that takes me 30 minutes or so |
| 04:57 | <@Alberth> | just to see what has actually changed |
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| 04:59 | <andythenorth> | all that, and the natural destiny of most patches is still ‘no’ :) |
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| 05:00 | <andythenorth> | where is the line crossed where devs have a social responsibility to the community? |
| 05:00 | <andythenorth> | is that even a thing? |
| 05:00 | <blocage> | Alberth, why do not reply that to the bug: split patch for each chang, submit screenshot before/after |
| 05:00 | <andythenorth> | I know some people making open-source, 3D printable replacement limbs |
| 05:00 | <andythenorth> | we’re making a game about pixel trains :P |
| 05:00 | <andythenorth> | social responsibility differs, eh? |
| 05:01 | <@Alberth> | I see my responsibility as providing a stable game |
| 05:02 | <@Alberth> | blocage: sure, but I mean, isn't it equally logical that the author himself thinks of this? |
| 05:02 | <andythenorth> | not sure I feel any social responsibility :P |
| 05:03 | <andythenorth> | I do in my actual job, but not here |
| 05:03 | <gentz> | I will take your advice LordAro, buy nagging you guys to add this patch: https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6617 |
| 05:03 | <blocage> | Alberth, not all author as experimented opensource developpers |
| 05:03 | <gentz> | s/buy/by |
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| 05:03 | <Wolf01> | o/ |
| 05:04 | <andythenorth> | lo Wolf01 |
| 05:04 | <gentz> | o/ |
| 05:04 | <@Alberth> | blocage: but it's the same everywhere, a report, a presentation |
| 05:04 | <@Alberth> | but be my guest, add a note :) |
| 05:04 | <andythenorth> | contributing to the project is a mess eh? :) |
| 05:05 | <@Alberth> | gentz: oh that one |
| 05:05 | <andythenorth> | where do Iook for guidance? Forums? Wiki? Here? Github? do-not-readme? |
| 05:05 | <gentz> | Ummm... is there any specific dev I should nag/sell my idea too? |
| 05:05 | <andythenorth> | gentz: no |
| 05:05 | <gentz> | Or do I just do that to all of you? |
| 05:05 | <andythenorth> | you just have to get lucky on one who is interested at the time |
| 05:05 | <@Alberth> | if it wasn't me, I would not have responded |
| 05:05 | <andythenorth> | you’ll mostly get no |
| 05:06 | <@Alberth> | I don't think this will fly, ever |
| 05:06 | <@Alberth> | you tried this in MP? |
| 05:06 | <Wolf01> | andythenorth: why are you trying to summon me at that hour? XD |
| 05:06 | <andythenorth> | https://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/NotRoadTypes#ToDo_list |
| 05:06 | <andythenorth> | what’s left? |
| 05:06 | <gentz> | Alberth, no |
| 05:06 | <andythenorth> | that list is full of ponies, which aren’t needed |
| 05:06 | <gentz> | Hold on as I test it |
| 05:07 | <@Alberth> | I assume it will desync horribly, without even having seen the patchbut aside from that, mass-upgrade between rail-types |
| 05:07 | <Wolf01> | Eh, roadtypes built by towns might be a requirement |
| 05:07 | <@Alberth> | but aside from that, mass-upgrade between rail-types is something that the default set enforces |
| 05:07 | <andythenorth> | what if we ship it in the nightly, and find out about towns being a requirement? |
| 05:08 | <@Alberth> | if you don't want that, don't play with the default set |
| 05:09 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 05:09 | <@Alberth> | imho a much better strategy here is to create new lines alongside the old ones |
| 05:09 | <andythenorth> | might just close all patch FS > 3 years |
| 05:09 | <andythenorth> | dead |
| 05:10 | <@Alberth> | that's much more fun than just mass-upgarde and continue doing what you already did |
| 05:10 | <gentz> | I can proudly say it didn't dsync! |
| 05:10 | <@Alberth> | andy some may be relevant for being kept open |
| 05:10 | <Wolf01> | If I get frosch to merge my branch to NRT, at least to fix the editor, or we can ship NRT as it is now and fix things with time |
| 05:11 | <@Alberth> | gentz: unfortunately, lack of desync doesn't proof safety |
| 05:11 | <andythenorth> | the more I look at the patch queue, the more I hate it |
| 05:11 | <@Alberth> | stop looking :p |
| 05:11 | <gentz> | Alberth, what more testing does it need? |
| 05:11 | <andythenorth> | Alberth: that’s cheating :) |
| 05:11 | <andythenorth> | I have chosen to play this game, and I won’t quit yet |
| 05:12 | <@Alberth> | gentz: I don't think it will be merged |
| 05:12 | <@Alberth> | newgrf has solved this problem |
| 05:12 | <andythenorth> | so we have ‘patch’ category |
| 05:12 | <gentz> | :( |
| 05:12 | <andythenorth> | and we have ‘with patch’ status |
| 05:12 | <gentz> | But my patch doesn't add a new rail-type |
| 05:13 | <andythenorth> | just ‘patch’ category tells nothing about whether it’s bug or feature request |
| 05:13 | <@Alberth> | gentz: if you want to skip upgrade, simply start in 2100 or so |
| 05:13 | <@Alberth> | enable "all trains forever" |
| 05:13 | <LordAro> | gentz: i warned you :3 |
| 05:13 | * | andythenorth wonders |
| 05:13 | <andythenorth> | what is this upgrading business? |
| 05:13 | * | andythenorth never upgrades |
| 05:13 | <andythenorth> | seems to cause a lot of heartache |
| 05:13 | <andythenorth> | for those who do |
| 05:14 | <andythenorth> | why is it a thing? |
| 05:14 | <@Alberth> | default set forces you to upgrade |
| 05:14 | <LordAro> | andythenorth: i feel like most of these "issues" will go away if/when a move to something with issues/pullrequests built in |
| 05:14 | <gentz> | All it does is remove the same rail-type check from the replace window and call autoreplace on every train in a depot |
| 05:14 | <andythenorth> | that’s the default gameplay Alberth, why change it? |
| 05:14 | <@Alberth> | ask gentz |
| 05:14 | <gentz> | How could it possibly dysnc! |
| 05:14 | <andythenorth> | seems like we need UI scripting to me |
| 05:15 | <andythenorth> | shitloads of FS is about order and train management |
| 05:15 | <@Alberth> | it's a train game :p |
| 05:15 | <andythenorth> | nearly all of them quite person-specific requests |
| 05:15 | <andythenorth> | which would be solved with a scriptable UI |
| 05:15 | <andythenorth> | except nobody would bother writing the scripts :) |
| 05:15 | <andythenorth> | but eh |
| 05:16 | <LordAro> | i'd imagine it's probably fine desync-wise, given it doesn't actually call any commands itself |
| 05:16 | <Wolf01> | Ok, I was about to say something but you already discussed about it, so I keep reading |
| 05:16 | <LordAro> | but bugs are almost by definition not easy to spot |
| 05:17 | <gentz> | Which is why we should push it to trunk and wait for someone to spot something! |
| 05:17 | <@Alberth> | gentz: you're still with the idea to fix the default set, that's no-go land, especially as it has been solved already in newgrfs |
| 05:18 | <@Alberth> | and I think you play the game in the wrong way by mass-upgrading, but that's just my idea |
| 05:18 | <gentz> | Whats the point of an convert tool if we can't/shouldn't use it? |
| 05:19 | <@Alberth> | ie if you enable "never remove old models" your entire problem disappears |
| 05:19 | <__ln__> | https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2017/09/rental-camera-gear-destroyed-by-the-solar-eclipse-of-2017/ |
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| 05:19 | <@Alberth> | what you mean, you can't use it? it works perfectly for everything but vehicles |
| 05:20 | <gentz> | Can't use it without redoing all your trains. |
| 05:20 | <gentz> | Also the convert tool is only available for trains |
| 05:21 | <gentz> | Its nice for normal rail to electric... but nothing else |
| 05:21 | <@Alberth> | if you use railtypes that partly overlap, it works in general |
| 05:22 | <gentz> | But nothing overlaps between electric and monorail (unless you use newgrfs) |
| 05:23 | <@Alberth> | why do you insist on a 1-1 copy of an entire new railtype in 1 minute? |
| 05:23 | <@Alberth> | the game is about building new track and stations etc |
| 05:24 | <andythenorth> | does recoding the base set trains in newgrf solve this? |
| 05:24 | <@Alberth> | why do you don't avoid the entire issue by picking another railtype of trainset or start year |
| 05:24 | <andythenorth> | just make them cross-compatible |
| 05:24 | <andythenorth> | rail <-> maglev <-> monorail |
| 05:24 | <@Alberth> | that will work, quite likely |
| 05:24 | <andythenorth> | boring upgrade clicks removed |
| 05:25 | <gentz> | andythenorth, I can get behind that |
| 05:25 | <gentz> | If it works |
| 05:25 | <@Alberth> | but why do you start a game in a setup where you KNOW that point will come |
| 05:25 | * | andythenorth wonders |
| 05:25 | <@Alberth> | change the setup |
| 05:25 | <andythenorth> | if all base vehicles were recoded as newgrf, with clean nml source |
| 05:25 | <gentz> | Alberth, its a server which goes from 1940-2050 |
| 05:25 | <andythenorth> | a lot of problems would disappear |
| 05:26 | <gentz> | You got to upgrade eventually |
| 05:26 | <@Alberth> | gentz: so? |
| 05:26 | <@Alberth> | use nuts |
| 05:27 | <@Alberth> | all train models exist for 255 years |
| 05:27 | <Wolf01> | I solved the problem at the root: I only use rails (normal, electrified, different speed), not a single monorail or maglev |
| 05:28 | <gentz> | It seams I'm not good at "selling"/nagging people here |
| 05:28 | <gentz> | :/ |
| 05:28 | <Wolf01> | There are grfs for what you want, why bother about vanilla stuff? |
| 05:28 | <gentz> | I couldn't convince the server operator to add a new grf |
| 05:28 | <@Alberth> | gentz: you're not even open for other solutions, no point in discussing anything |
| 05:29 | <gentz> | so I thought I could convince you guys |
| 05:29 | <Wolf01> | Ahaha "I can't change one server so I'll change all of them" |
| 05:29 | <gentz> | Yes |
| 05:29 | <Wolf01> | GG. |
| 05:30 | <@Alberth> | you haven't made any point other than "I want this, and only this, and this whatI want" |
| 05:30 | <gentz> | Alberth: What would be the requirement for scriptable ui? |
| 05:30 | <@Alberth> | if you want to convince anyone, you have to pull their counter arguments down |
| 05:30 | <@Alberth> | not MP killing, I think |
| 05:31 | <@Alberth> | unless you like an arms race in scripting the game |
| 05:31 | <@Alberth> | which is easier to achieve by making AIs |
| 05:32 | * | andythenorth imagines a scriptable UI that can build 10k trains at once :P |
| 05:33 | <@Alberth> | no need for copy/paste anymore |
| 05:33 | <andythenorth> | and then delete them at the end of the journey |
| 05:33 | <gentz> | What specific things would it need to do? |
| 05:33 | <gentz> | *be able to do |
| 05:33 | <@Alberth> | you just build the entire layout in 1 second |
| 05:33 | <@Alberth> | it's more what it shouldn't be able to do |
| 05:34 | <@Alberth> | If I have a script to assist me, normal players have no chance whatsoever |
| 05:34 | <gentz> | One could limit number of actions a script can do per second |
| 05:35 | <@Alberth> | 1/second, so 400 train conversions or 10 wagons take 4000 secinds? |
| 05:36 | <@Alberth> | just an hour-ush |
| 05:36 | <@Alberth> | *of 10 wagons |
| 05:36 | <andythenorth> | main irritating thing about patches - besides the work involved - is lack of context |
| 05:37 | <@Alberth> | or laying a 200 tile track, 30 seconds? |
| 05:37 | <gentz> | 4/second would take 15mins |
| 05:37 | <andythenorth> | I _think_ that’s what irritates frosch about them too maybe |
| 05:37 | <gentz> | Just as long as me |
| 05:37 | <andythenorth> | improving a section of the game goes better with at least some aims and a plan |
| 05:37 | <andythenorth> | not just applying patches |
| 05:38 | <andythenorth> | and lots of patches from people who won’t join irc and actually discuss |
| 05:38 | <@Alberth> | most patches are too small scaled in aim |
| 05:38 | <@Alberth> | which is understandable, but not very useful |
| 05:38 | <andythenorth> | also, patches have a skewed value system |
| 05:39 | <andythenorth> | some contribute patches, and see the patch as being very high value item |
| 05:39 | <andythenorth> | whilst neglecting value of work to test patch, review patch |
| 05:39 | <@Alberth> | gentz: we should add a payment option :p |
| 05:39 | <andythenorth> | and value of work to ensure the game has at least some coherence to the design |
| 05:39 | <@Alberth> | pay 50 to finish now :p |
| 05:39 | <andythenorth> | the funny thing is |
| 05:39 | <Wolf01> | andythenorth: what would you expect from the log parser? Other than just parsing the content of the log and put it into a database, and maybe some statistics |
| 05:40 | <andythenorth> | Wolf01: that seems like enough win there |
| 05:40 | <andythenorth> | the funny thing is….I get every pony I want |
| 05:40 | <andythenorth> | but I only have two actual author commits |
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| 05:40 | <andythenorth> | so how? |
| 05:40 | <@Alberth> | you don't aim for unattainable ponies |
| 05:41 | <@Alberth> | and you're here discussing the pony |
| 05:41 | <@Alberth> | and why it's interesting |
| 05:41 | <andythenorth> | I also make mockups, test grfs, nml patches |
| 05:41 | <andythenorth> | I would do the docs, but I’m banned from newgrf wiki |
| 05:41 | <@Alberth> | indeed |
| 05:41 | <andythenorth> | I also expect a default ‘no’ and I’m not surprised when I get it |
| 05:41 | <@Alberth> | but you make a case for it |
| 05:42 | <@Alberth> | and you accept that not everything is possible |
| 05:42 | <@Alberth> | probably from knowing the general limits and general direction |
| 05:42 | <andythenorth> | I also test patches ASAP when asked, even if I really can’t be arsed a the time |
| 05:43 | <@Alberth> | including patches we need tested, and you happen to be the owner of a device :p |
| 05:43 | <andythenorth> | so I’m pretty awesome eh |
| 05:43 | <@Alberth> | yeah :) |
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| 05:44 | * | andythenorth clones andythenorth |
| 05:44 | <@Alberth> | uhoh... :p |
| 05:44 | <andythenorth> | actually I don’t get every pony |
| 05:44 | <Eddi|zuHause> | <andythenorth> just make them cross-compatible <-- that exists, it is called "universal railtype" |
| 05:44 | <andythenorth> | Eddi|zuHause: that too :) |
| 05:44 | <andythenorth> | solved problem |
| 05:45 | <andythenorth> | sad ponies: there’s some stuff about the mess of water transport that I can’t get any traction for at all |
| 05:45 | <andythenorth> | maybe I should try and patch it :P |
| 05:45 | <gentz> | Ok, so the scriptable ui will need time limit on actions and a feature to donate to gentz... anything else before I try to do it? |
| 05:46 | <@Alberth> | very likely |
| 05:46 | <andythenorth> | donations :) |
| 05:46 | <andythenorth> | nice |
| 05:46 | <Eddi|zuHause> | gentz: our builtin squirrel interpreter has a limit to "opcodes" |
| 05:46 | <andythenorth> | there are example cases in FS that could only (imo) be met by scripting |
| 05:46 | <@Alberth> | and has been disabled on design |
| 05:46 | <andythenorth> | e.g. https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6151 |
| 05:47 | <andythenorth> | there is no good UI for that request, it’s basically a bullshit request with no thought in it |
| 05:47 | <Eddi|zuHause> | which is not perfect, some supposedly "atomic" operations that took too long were forbidden. like "sort" |
| 05:47 | <andythenorth> | it’s a total “I want a pony” from someone who can’t actually ride |
| 05:48 | <andythenorth> | but a script could walk all vehicles, looking for the order, and replacing it |
| 05:48 | <@Alberth> | I am quite opposed to automating stuff |
| 05:48 | <gentz> | FS? Whats that? |
| 05:48 | <@Alberth> | flyspray |
| 05:48 | <andythenorth> | where ideas go to die :) |
| 05:48 | <gentz> | oh |
| 05:48 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the bug tracker |
| 05:48 | <Eddi|zuHause> | andythenorth: enabling AI for human player companies is supposedly a one-line patch |
| 05:49 | <@Alberth> | the entire point of a game is to be busy with it |
| 05:49 | <Eddi|zuHause> | andythenorth: but it was deliberately disabled |
| 05:49 | <@Alberth> | automating everything just deafeats that |
| 05:49 | <andythenorth> | I dunno |
| 05:49 | <andythenorth> | I don’t really care how people play |
| 05:49 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Alberth: well, you'll get busy with automating things... it's just a metalevel game :p |
| 05:49 | <andythenorth> | you can use comic sans on a mac, even though Steve Jobs was a typography perfectionist |
| 05:49 | <@Alberth> | Eddi|zuHause: write an AI |
| 05:50 | <@Alberth> | start programming in C++ |
| 05:50 | <Eddi|zuHause> | andythenorth: the problem is "cheating" on servers that try to be competetive (even though that is a goal that can never be achieved) |
| 05:50 | <@Alberth> | ie it's not openttd :p |
| 05:50 | <andythenorth> | I give, to be crude, zero fucks about MP other than desyncs |
| 05:51 | <andythenorth> | so much MP bollocks |
| 05:51 | <@Alberth> | pretty much all servers are not co-op play |
| 05:51 | <andythenorth> | playing MP to win is stupid in a non-winnable game |
| 05:51 | <andythenorth> | GS is different |
| 05:52 | <@Alberth> | you just redefine winning :p |
| 05:52 | <Eddi|zuHause> | andythenorth: yet, some people do it... are those people stupid? |
| 05:52 | <andythenorth> | no, but specifically designing in that direction is stupid |
| 05:53 | <andythenorth> | last time I played non-GS MP, I spent most of my time building a castle with newgrf |
| 05:53 | <@Alberth> | we're not taking many economic patches, you know :p |
| 05:53 | <andythenorth> | and griefing Pikka |
| 05:53 | <andythenorth> | non GS MP is mostly lulz |
| 05:53 | <Eddi|zuHause> | andythenorth: anyway, if you allow AI on human companies, then you'll attract the "wallhack"-"aimbot" crowd |
| 05:54 | <andythenorth> | is that good or bad? |
| 05:54 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 05:54 | <Eddi|zuHause> | say, someone makes a script that places rails whenever someone else places a station |
| 05:54 | <andythenorth> | maybe we should add *more* griefing opportunities |
| 05:54 | <Eddi|zuHause> | so the player can never use the station |
| 05:54 | <andythenorth> | Eddi|zuHause: well those people can play on bot servers against each other |
| 05:54 | <Eddi|zuHause> | or, they buy exclusive rights in every town |
| 05:54 | <@Alberth> | if they did, it would be no problem |
| 05:55 | <gentz> | Then they'd just ban ais |
| 05:55 | <andythenorth> | what’s the problem in MP? |
| 05:55 | <gentz> | And I'd get to enjoy my auto upgrades for a week |
| 05:55 | <@Alberth> | we did, by not allowing scriptable UI |
| 05:55 | <andythenorth> | why don’t griefers just get kbanned? |
| 05:55 | * | andythenorth is perplexed |
| 05:55 | <Eddi|zuHause> | andythenorth: that needs efficient moderator/administrator tools |
| 05:56 | <@Alberth> | if I build a station in 0.1 seconds, is that grieving? |
| 05:56 | <andythenorth> | no |
| 05:56 | <@Alberth> | 20 platforms, and all entry and exit tracks, signalling, everything? |
| 05:56 | <andythenorth> | no |
| 05:56 | <andythenorth> | it’s efficient |
| 05:56 | <andythenorth> | but you are convincing me towards -1 on scriptable UI |
| 05:56 | <andythenorth> | due to wailing from MP players |
| 05:56 | <andythenorth> | MP is a pox on the game :P |
| 05:57 | <@Alberth> | so I can fill the entire map with proper routes in less than a minute |
| 05:57 | <Eddi|zuHause> | mind you, i'm not actually an MP player, i just take on a random position in this discussion |
| 05:57 | <andythenorth> | yes |
| 05:57 | <@Alberth> | nice competitive play then :p |
| 05:57 | <andythenorth> | at which point you have won at writing scripts |
| 05:57 | <gentz> | Current AI has a speed limit, yes? |
| 05:57 | <@Alberth> | yep |
| 05:57 | <andythenorth> | that’s some pretty good AI programming imho |
| 05:57 | <Eddi|zuHause> | andythenorth: solution might be a server flag "no scripts allowed" |
| 05:57 | <@Alberth> | andythenorth: find a server with a fixed map |
| 05:57 | <Eddi|zuHause> | (hoping that people don't use "hacked" clients which ignore this flag) |
| 05:58 | <Eddi|zuHause> | also, something like the landscaping burst limits, for arbitrary commands |
| 05:58 | <andythenorth> | no problem that isn’t solved with another flag |
| 05:58 | <andythenorth> | except too many flags |
| 05:58 | <Eddi|zuHause> | flag to reduce the number of flags |
| 05:58 | <gentz> | check for hacked client flag? |
| 05:58 | <@Alberth> | how are you going to do that? |
| 05:58 | <Eddi|zuHause> | gentz: we have that, it's called "version string" |
| 05:59 | <Eddi|zuHause> | gentz: but you can hack that, too :p |
| 05:59 | <andythenorth> | can never trust the client |
| 05:59 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 05:59 | <andythenorth> | what stops me just making a client with scripting in it, and joining servers? |
| 05:59 | <@Alberth> | nothing |
| 05:59 | <@Alberth> | just a lot of work |
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| 06:00 | <@Alberth> | and probably you should avoid being too obvious cheating |
| 06:00 | <@Alberth> | if you like that meta-game |
| 06:00 | <gentz> | So are you folks proposing hacking my client just so I don't have to manually upgrade trains? |
| 06:00 | <andythenorth> | sounds like office space Alberth |
| 06:00 | <gentz> | I like it |
| 06:01 | <gentz> | I'll start counting number of days till I'm banned from everything |
| 06:01 | <@Alberth> | play at a more sane server is simpler |
| 06:01 | <andythenorth> | plot of Office Space is something like exploiting integer maths to siphon a penny off from financial transactions |
| 06:01 | <andythenorth> | only they do it wrong and get too much money |
| 06:01 | <Eddi|zuHause> | andythenorth: something like that happened... |
| 06:02 | <Eddi|zuHause> | it was in the news a few years ago |
| 06:03 | <Eddi|zuHause> | they implemented a system that banks use to transfer money back and forth, and cut off after like 4 decimal digits |
| 06:03 | <Eddi|zuHause> | was in place for years |
| 06:03 | <Eddi|zuHause> | earned a really really large sum of money |
| 06:04 | <@Alberth> | we should just have a single world-wide currency :p |
| 06:04 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Alberth: "love"? :p |
| 06:04 | <gentz> | Who will print it? |
| 06:05 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Alberth: even bitcoin split into two, because they couldn't quite agree |
| 06:06 | <@Alberth> | bitcoin is weird, make money by spending cpu time :p |
| 06:06 | <andythenorth> | can I recategorise all “Patch” as “Feature Request” or “Bug" |
| 06:06 | <andythenorth> | ? |
| 06:06 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Alberth: how is that more weird than making money by digging through dirt? |
| 06:06 | <andythenorth> | bug tracker has many many ways of classifying, and very limited actual usefulness |
| 06:06 | <_dp_> | o/ |
| 06:06 | <andythenorth> | lo _dp_ |
| 06:06 | <_dp_> | chat is so fast lately I can't even catch up xD |
| 06:06 | <@Alberth> | try #python for a change :p |
| 06:07 | <Eddi|zuHause> | _dp_: it's all andys fault |
| 06:07 | <@Alberth> | it's hard to follow one discussion there |
| 06:07 | <Wolf01> | <andythenorth> can I recategorise all “Patch” as “Feature Request” or “Bug" <- Yes, you can |
| 06:07 | <@Alberth> | andy, some "has patch attached" would be a useful notion, I think |
| 06:08 | <andythenorth> | there is ‘with patch’ status |
| 06:08 | <andythenorth> | which seems useful |
| 06:08 | <@Alberth> | eddi fair point :) |
| 06:08 | <_dp_> | upgrading railtypes is such a huge pain that all our servers are set up in a way that it's never ever required |
| 06:09 | <_dp_> | not sure if that patch will help any but would be nice to have an upgrades that actually work |
| 06:09 | <@Alberth> | gentz: ^ one sane server :) |
| 06:09 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Alberth: pre-colonial american societies used seashells as currency |
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| 06:10 | <gentz> | Or you guys could stop breaking my heart and make me happy |
| 06:10 | <@Alberth> | likely we did something weird too in the past |
| 06:10 | <gentz> | by merging it |
| 06:10 | <andythenorth> | Samu’s patches are a classic of ‘but why?' |
| 06:10 | <gentz> | And ignoring all protential bugs |
| 06:10 | <andythenorth> | urgh |
| 06:10 | <andythenorth> | what if it’s not a feature request, or a bug? |
| 06:10 | <andythenorth> | but refactoring? |
| 06:10 | <@Alberth> | andy, sometimes he did shoot correctly |
| 06:10 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Alberth: after WWII cigarettes were a common "currency" in destroyed europe |
| 06:10 | * | NGC3982 hand a snail to Eddi|zuHause and expects service. |
| 06:11 | <@Alberth> | so smoking cost money, in a very real sense :p |
| 06:11 | <Wolf01> | andythenorth: change "patch" to "codechange" |
| 06:11 | <andythenorth> | I have no admin rights :) |
| 06:11 | <Wolf01> | Meh |
| 06:12 | <Wolf01> | Leave the ones which aren't fix or feature as patch |
| 06:12 | <NGC3982> | Eddi|zuHause: my grand grandfather lived in the middle of sweden during the war. he (like most of us up here) was not affected directly by the war, more than having to live beside the rails that reach to the top of norrland (northest of sweden). when we cleaned his house after his death we found german cigarettes in big quantities, and we think germans traveling trough sweden traded with him. |
| 06:12 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Alberth: currencies are weird in general. there must be a) enough of it to facilitate trading, b) some difficulty to make more of, c) some difficulty to fake it |
| 06:13 | <andythenorth> | Alberth: Samu seems like a stopped clock :) |
| 06:13 | <NGC3982> | sed -i e/big/large/g |
| 06:13 | <andythenorth> | right twice a day, but should it be kept? o_O |
| 06:13 | <NGC3982> | sed -i e/grand g*/great g*/g |
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| 06:14 | <Eddi|zuHause> | NGC3982: that is probably not valid sed :p |
| 06:15 | <Eddi|zuHause> | also, you can ommit the g if there's only one instance (per line) |
| 06:16 | <NGC3982> | haha, i just wrote something |
| 06:16 | <NGC3982> | i usually have to man seds, since botching it has concequences up the pooper. |
| 06:16 | <Eddi|zuHause> | anyway, i have no clue what e does |
| 06:16 | <NGC3982> | its an important feature |
| 06:16 | <Eddi|zuHause> | NGC3982: yeah, don't use -i until you're sure it's right |
| 06:16 | <NGC3982> | it aligns the galaxies in the local group to better focus the cpu energy |
| 06:18 | <Eddi|zuHause> | NGC3982: how does that affect my Akasha devices? |
| 06:19 | <andythenorth> | how would a patch like this even get decided on yes / no? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5872 |
| 06:19 | <andythenorth> | it’s a binary decision, and we have no BDFL |
| 06:19 | <NGC3982> | its funny. i had to google that. it sounded like some Yamaha bluetooth device |
| 06:19 | <NGC3982> | it was indian cosmology. neat. :-p |
| 06:20 | <Wolf01> | andythenorth: that patch is pure bullshit |
| 06:20 | <@Alberth> | andythenorth: I think it's invalid, but not sure |
| 06:20 | <@Alberth> | ie there is a time window where the map is being copied |
| 06:20 | <@Alberth> | there you can really not do anything |
| 06:20 | <Wolf01> | Since threading autosave starts after copying the map, and copying the map means the game must be freezed |
| 06:20 | <Eddi|zuHause> | NGC3982: https://www.amazon.de/Oz-Orgonite-Akasha-Orgonit-Sockel-Kupferstangen/dp/B016Z3PO2E |
| 06:20 | <@Alberth> | outside that window, imho the sleep cursor should not happen |
| 06:21 | <@Alberth> | but I don't know for sure that is really the case |
| 06:21 | <andythenorth> | so it can be approached as a technical question? |
| 06:21 | <@Alberth> | although it seems very likely that it is programmed like that |
| 06:21 | <andythenorth> | rather than an aesthetic choice? |
| 06:21 | * | andythenorth brb |
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| 06:23 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i think the Zzzz cursor appears during that copying step, and disappears once compressing/writing is forked |
| 06:23 | <Eddi|zuHause> | but i'm not really sure |
| 06:23 | <@Alberth> | the same here, I never really checked it |
| 06:24 | <@Alberth> | there is an aesthetic choice of course, but everybody wants less Zzz cursor, so that's all aligned nicely :) |
| 06:24 | <_dp_> | > <Alberth> it defeats an obstacle in the game |
| 06:24 | <_dp_> | trees are only obstacles for complete newbies :p |
| 06:25 | <_dp_> | *authority |
| 06:25 | <_dp_> | most players just spam trees |
| 06:25 | <_dp_> | and some like me even have hotkey for that |
| 06:25 | <_dp_> | so it's pure annoyance |
| 06:25 | <@Alberth> | imho it's mostly a bug that trees work :p |
| 06:26 | <@Alberth> | but yeah, cities are a pain |
| 06:26 | <_dp_> | though I've already enabled magic bulldozer on our servers so I'm totally fine with that never being implemented |
| 06:26 | <@Alberth> | not sure why the original game made it like that |
| 06:26 | <_dp_> | it just means it will be harder for other servers to be as cool as ours :p |
| 06:27 | <@Alberth> | it pushes towards industrial cargo |
| 06:28 | <@Alberth> | which I guess is more interesting from a transport point of view |
| 06:28 | <_dp_> | original was a sp game in an almost pre-internet era :p |
| 06:28 | <@Alberth> | why does your server aim for cities? |
| 06:29 | <_dp_> | Alberth, because CB is pretty much the only complex game mode invented so far |
| 06:29 | <@Alberth> | even in sp, cities are a mess |
| 06:29 | <@Alberth> | it takes ages to get a track through it without cheating |
| 06:30 | <_dp_> | Alberth, that's realism :p |
| 06:30 | <@Alberth> | sure, and I am fine with it |
| 06:30 | <_dp_> | besides in openttd tracks aren't good for city growth so it's even more reason for it |
| 06:31 | <_dp_> | but authorities are stupid, you can build an awesome road layout for city and it still hates you |
| 06:31 | <@Alberth> | industries are missing some capability or so? |
| 06:32 | <@Alberth> | authorities take a "see then believe" assumption :p |
| 06:33 | <_dp_> | Alberth, nah, just stupid :p planting trees and active stations is not much of a help for city |
| 06:34 | <@Alberth> | wirthout moving into simcity, I can see designers wanted something simple fitting in the game |
| 06:35 | <@Alberth> | I usually deal with authorities by switching to some other area, and return in a decade |
| 06:35 | <Eddi|zuHause> | NGC3982: the most notable thing about these akasha pillars are the user ratings below :p |
| 06:36 | <_dp_> | Alberth, you can't switch to some other area in CB if that's your town that hates you :p |
| 06:36 | <@Alberth> | yeah |
| 06:36 | <@Alberth> | CB really doesn't fit well at all |
| 06:36 | <@Alberth> | yet everybody jumps at it |
| 06:37 | <_dp_> | well, clearly ttd wasn't even designed for goal games |
| 06:37 | <_dp_> | but it manages fine |
| 06:37 | <_dp_> | *ever |
| 06:37 | <@Alberth> | I think up to a few years back, people made their own goals |
| 06:37 | <@Alberth> | and that may have happened all the time |
| 06:38 | <_dp_> | btw wasn't original game considered to be an economic sim? |
| 06:38 | <_dp_> | dunno what it's designers smoked but I fail to understand that xD |
| 06:38 | <@Alberth> | think it is |
| 06:38 | <@Alberth> | you see stocks playing a much bigger role in other train transport games |
| 06:38 | <Eddi|zuHause> | _dp_: it has money, and you can make more of it. how is that not an economic sim? |
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| 06:39 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yeah, for me, stocks were always the worst part of railroad tycoon |
| 06:39 | <@Alberth> | chineese students learn it by playing openttd :p |
| 06:40 | <_dp_> | Eddi|zuHause, and minecraft has minecarts, does that make it a transport simulator? |
| 06:40 | <@Alberth> | likely because early american train companies were small and heavily into stocks |
| 06:41 | <Eddi|zuHause> | _dp_: i thought the point of minecraft was to build rollercoasters? |
| 06:41 | <@Alberth> | or logic circuits |
| 06:42 | <andythenorth> | railroad tycoon 3, the stock market *was* the game |
| 06:42 | <andythenorth> | it was awesome |
| 06:42 | <_dp_> | Eddi|zuHause, if so that's pretty dull rollercoasters, you can't even go upside down :p |
| 06:42 | <andythenorth> | the trains were completely automated |
| 06:42 | <Eddi|zuHause> | _dp_: i have heard of people who play GTA V with their kids, following all the traffic laws and stuff :p |
| 06:44 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 06:44 | <andythenorth> | so ottd is a bit lost eh |
| 06:44 | <@Alberth> | exploded in all directions? :) |
| 06:45 | <andythenorth> | no Rubidium :) |
| 06:45 | <andythenorth> | no-one in charge |
| 06:45 | <_dp_> | Eddi|zuHause, there are all kinds of crazy people but I don't think gta was even advertised as a law-friendly game |
| 06:45 | <Eddi|zuHause> | err, obviously not. :p |
| 06:46 | <Eddi|zuHause> | but the fun part about open-world games is: you can ignore the parts that don't interest you and make your own game within the game |
| 06:48 | <_dp_> | sure that's exactly what goal servers do ;) |
| 06:48 | <_dp_> | but you don't call openttd an rts |
| 06:49 | <_dp_> | yet ttd devs called it economy sim for some reason :p |
| 06:52 | <milek7> | i don't think ttd is simulator of anything, just game ;p |
| 06:52 | * | andythenorth wonders |
| 06:52 | <andythenorth> | how about blanket policy: reject all patches? |
| 06:53 | <@Alberth> | how would you ever get new devs? |
| 06:54 | <@Alberth> | not to mention large game features |
| 06:54 | <andythenorth> | not sure, thinking |
| 06:55 | <andythenorth> | the whole patching culture is very transactional |
| 06:55 | <andythenorth> | it doesn’t really seem to work in most projects I see it |
| 06:55 | <andythenorth> | it’s without conversation |
| 06:55 | <andythenorth> | it’s not collaborative |
| 06:55 | <andythenorth> | it’s not social |
| 06:55 | <@Alberth> | it assumes alignment on intentions |
| 06:55 | <andythenorth> | it’s very over-the-fence |
| 06:55 | <andythenorth> | and it creates a lot of hostility |
| 06:55 | <andythenorth> | needlessly afaict |
| 06:56 | <@Alberth> | in tightly coupled dev-groups, it works |
| 06:56 | <andythenorth> | that assumes at least (1) group (2) tight coupling :) |
| 06:56 | <@Alberth> | but it assumes everybody does his/her part |
| 06:56 | <andythenorth> | to use terrible metaphors |
| 06:56 | <@Alberth> | it does make such assumptions indeed |
| 06:56 | <andythenorth> | if someone came and offered to paint my door blue |
| 06:56 | <andythenorth> | that would be odd |
| 06:57 | <andythenorth> | if they were then offended because I didn’t accept their suggestion |
| 06:57 | <andythenorth> | that would be odder |
| 06:57 | <andythenorth> | and if they turned up with the paint and everything, all paid for, that would be odd too |
| 06:57 | <andythenorth> | it’s a crap metaphor but |
| 06:59 | <@Alberth> | quite close, in a sense |
| 06:59 | <andythenorth> | I don’t think this has helped https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=58835 |
| 06:59 | <andythenorth> | was my idea |
| 06:59 | <LordAro> | andythenorth: like i said, the sooner the move to something with pull requests, the better |
| 07:00 | <andythenorth> | LordAro: I think that improves the mechanic, but still leaves it transactional |
| 07:00 | <andythenorth> | I am +1 btw |
| 07:00 | <LordAro> | what's the issue with transactional? |
| 07:00 | <andythenorth> | only works for limited cases |
| 07:00 | <@Alberth> | somewhat it helps, but it's the reverse idea, we tell what we want |
| 07:00 | <andythenorth> | transactional works for easily verified bug fixes |
| 07:00 | <@Alberth> | which doesn't work, much like they tell us what they want |
| 07:01 | <andythenorth> | I think we should unsticky / close that post |
| 07:01 | <andythenorth> | also people *have* submitted requested patches…and got deafening silence |
| 07:01 | <@Alberth> | that holds for many stickies :p |
| 07:01 | <andythenorth> | so it’s kind of rude |
| 07:01 | * | andythenorth needs a forum mod |
| 07:02 | * | andythenorth goes through the requested |
| 07:02 | <andythenorth> | https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5192 <- dead since 2012, I would have already closed it, except it’s on the requested list |
| 07:02 | <andythenorth> | https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5078 <- dead since 2012, I would have already closed it, except it’s on the requested list |
| 07:04 | <andythenorth> | eh done :) https://bugs.openttd.org/task/2064 |
| 07:05 | <_dp_> | patches work better when there is a good feedback |
| 07:05 | <_dp_> | having a dictator won't hurt either imo |
| 07:05 | <andythenorth> | oh I’m not allowed to edit wiki |
| 07:05 | <andythenorth> | we have nobody who wants to be dictator currently _dp_ :) |
| 07:05 | <Wolf01> | I could be one, but you won't like it |
| 07:06 | <_dp_> | same xD |
| 07:06 | <FLHerne> | Perhaps we need an election to pick a dictator? |
| 07:07 | <_dp_> | dictators usually aren't elected :p |
| 07:07 | <FLHerne> | Have everyone explain their vision of the game, and then force people to choose the least worst |
| 07:08 | <LordAro> | it'd need to be someone who can dedicate the time |
| 07:08 | <andythenorth> | who’s the electorate? :P |
| 07:08 | <FLHerne> | tt-forums, obviously |
| 07:08 | <andythenorth> | hah |
| 07:08 | <andythenorth> | I could be BDFL, but *I* wouldn’t like it |
| 07:08 | <FLHerne> | Maybe accept (non-duplicate) votes on simuscape to minimise whining |
| 07:08 | <andythenorth> | I do that all day long for money, with actual paying customers |
| 07:09 | <andythenorth> | there is zero reward doing it in OpenTTD land |
| 07:09 | <andythenorth> | and we lack an obsessive control freak like Linus or Guido or the Dwarf Fortress guy |
| 07:10 | <andythenorth> | LordAro: can you edit wiki? https://wiki.openttd.org/Todo_list |
| 07:11 | * | andythenorth is bored of being banned from wikiw |
| 07:11 | <LordAro> | nope |
| 07:11 | <@Alberth> | likely protected area |
| 07:11 | <LordAro> | "page has been protected" |
| 07:11 | <andythenorth> | ok |
| 07:11 | <@Alberth> | what should be done? |
| 07:11 | <andythenorth> | https://bugs.openttd.org/task/2064 is done |
| 07:11 | <andythenorth> | needs removed or marked as win |
| 07:12 | <@Alberth> | done |
| 07:13 | <andythenorth> | thanks |
| 07:13 | <@Alberth> | yw |
| 07:13 | <andythenorth> | https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6078 <- no discussion two years, not dead yet |
| 07:14 | <andythenorth> | https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6242 <- I rejected that, we don’t need mouse hover on menu items, it’s faff |
| 07:15 | <@Alberth> | 6078 seems like a solution |
| 07:16 | <@Alberth> | window is a bit long |
| 07:16 | <@Alberth> | *wide |
| 07:16 | <andythenorth> | it is eh |
| 07:16 | <@Alberth> | oh, 2 sentences ideas don't belong in the FS tracker |
| 07:17 | <andythenorth> | o_O ? |
| 07:17 | <@Alberth> | "it would be nice to have $random major feature" |
| 07:18 | <@Alberth> | yes, it would |
| 07:18 | <andythenorth> | where it’s obvious and known, it’s kind of junk |
| 07:18 | <milek7> | is there any point in having feature requests without patches on FS? |
| 07:18 | <andythenorth> | milek7: sometimes imho |
| 07:18 | <andythenorth> | they work when they collate the discussion |
| 07:18 | <andythenorth> | not so much for obvious crap |
| 07:19 | <andythenorth> | I folded ‘RVs need to ovetake’ tickets into this one https://bugs.openttd.org/task/2738 |
| 07:19 | <andythenorth> | and now it actually has some utility |
| 07:19 | <@Alberth> | milek7: for complicated things like re-organizing the windows, you have a lot of discussion to get to a proper proposal |
| 07:19 | <andythenorth> | 5 random RV over-taking wishes is no use |
| 07:19 | <andythenorth> | 1 ticket with at least listed cases to consider…some use |
| 07:19 | <@Alberth> | I have that wish too |
| 07:19 | <@Alberth> | didn't bother making a ticket for it :p |
| 07:20 | <andythenorth> | Alberth: https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6078 is “Unify the appearance and position of "goto location" buttons.” in the wiki page |
| 07:20 | <andythenorth> | you’re going to get bored of being a remote-edit bot thb |
| 07:20 | <@Alberth> | yeah |
| 07:20 | <andythenorth> | tbh * |
| 07:20 | <@Alberth> | it's not done right? |
| 07:20 | <andythenorth> | dunno |
| 07:21 | <andythenorth> | https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5018 is in the list, but is rejected |
| 07:21 | <@Alberth> | 6078 is about lifetime |
| 07:22 | <andythenorth> | ach sorry |
| 07:22 | <andythenorth> | should be https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5981 |
| 07:22 | <@Alberth> | we request an impossible request? |
| 07:23 | <andythenorth> | could be reopened |
| 07:23 | <andythenorth> | ship the text in the binary |
| 07:23 | <andythenorth> | totally plausible |
| 07:23 | <andythenorth> | but nobody has |
| 07:23 | <Wolf01> | Mmmh, we should talk with adf88 about the combining/converting railtypes, as NRT needs that for road too |
| 07:23 | <@Alberth> | but is it at the wiki? |
| 07:24 | <@Alberth> | I'd be surprised, tbh |
| 07:24 | <andythenorth> | it’s in the wiki |
| 07:24 | <andythenorth> | "Readme/licence/changelog viewer for OpenTTD itself. (likely requires OS/packaging specific code)" |
| 07:24 | <@Alberth> | ok, so it already points at a solution |
| 07:25 | <andythenorth> | either generate the readme, or add some lang strings from contents of readme |
| 07:25 | <andythenorth> | but eh |
| 07:25 | <@Alberth> | 5018 is thus a duplicate? |
| 07:25 | <andythenorth> | not sure of the history exactly |
| 07:25 | <@Alberth> | it has less information then the wiki |
| 07:26 | <andythenorth> | in a better bug tracker, we’d create a public saved query listing the ‘wanted’ features |
| 07:26 | <andythenorth> | thus circumventing wiki |
| 07:26 | <andythenorth> | forums -> wiki -> FS -> graveyard |
| 07:27 | <andythenorth> | I’m not crying about this, but I have definitely been in conversations here along lines of “but nobody even submitted anything in the wanted patches list" |
| 07:27 | <andythenorth> | yet they have, and broadly not looked at |
| 07:27 | <andythenorth> | not a winning strategy :) |
| 07:28 | <@Alberth> | 5981 I don't know, the wanted feature is not mine. I am willing to take a look, but spending 30 minutes just to see what it does is just stupid |
| 07:28 | <andythenorth> | I have no interest in it |
| 07:28 | <andythenorth> | I am dubious about touching most of the UI |
| 07:28 | <andythenorth> | it’s well established, and mostly not broken |
| 07:28 | <@Alberth> | I don't think anyone is closely watching the junk coming in in the FS |
| 07:29 | <andythenorth> | I dislike watching amateur UI designers at work :( |
| 07:29 | <andythenorth> | and it’s part of my day, and it’s hard, so eh |
| 07:29 | <andythenorth> | day job * |
| 07:29 | * | andythenorth wonders how it is to be a proper programmer and watch andythenorth write code :P |
| 07:30 | <@Alberth> | I think everybody writes in his own way |
| 07:30 | <@Alberth> | the end-result is what counts |
| 07:30 | <@Alberth> | not the program itself |
| 07:31 | <andythenorth> | different for UIs |
| 07:31 | <andythenorth> | anyway no screenshot |
| 07:31 | <andythenorth> | nobody will touch it |
| 07:31 | <@Alberth> | I would do it differently or quicker, but until you have found your current approach failing, I can't explain it |
| 07:32 | <andythenorth> | that wiki page lacks a ‘Windows’ section |
| 07:34 | <andythenorth> | omg, I found this also https://wiki.openttd.org/List_of_patches |
| 07:34 | <@Alberth> | sorry, but I have other things to do, and no rights to give you access |
| 07:34 | <andythenorth> | nah it’s fine :) |
| 07:35 | * | andythenorth should feed children lunch and stuff and stop doing this :P |
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| 07:35 | <@Alberth> | users make the weirdest lists :P |
| 07:35 | <andythenorth> | tempted to rewrite this though eh https://wiki.openttd.org/FAQ_development#I.27ve_fixed_a_bug_.2F_added_a_feature._How_can_I_submit_it_to_the_codebase.3F |
| 07:35 | <andythenorth> | it’s basically not true |
| 07:35 | <andythenorth> | kinda |
| 07:36 | <Cadadadry> | h |
| 07:36 | <Cadadadry> | hello |
| 07:37 | <andythenorth> | hi |
| 07:37 | <andythenorth> | hmm, is the git repo still a sync to an svn master? |
| 07:37 | <Cadadadry> | looking for somebody to tell me some clues about ottd, pls |
| 07:38 | <Cadadadry> | who knows the options included into the station window ? |
| 07:39 | <@Alberth> | you actually want a list? |
| 07:39 | <@Alberth> | I don't think anyone knows that from their head |
| 07:40 | <@Alberth> | perhaps tell what problem you're trying to solve? |
| 07:40 | <@Alberth> | andy, faq development is also protected? |
| 07:41 | <andythenorth> | no |
| 07:41 | <andythenorth> | I am considering editing it, but I don’t want to add alternative facts |
| 07:41 | <andythenorth> | because alternative facts are lies |
| 07:41 | <@Alberth> | some presidents think otherwise :p |
| 07:41 | <Cadadadry> | well, compared to original TTD, there are new settings into station window (like the little "+" switching to "-" and some new buttons as well |
| 07:41 | <andythenorth> | did we switch to git as master yet? |
| 07:41 | <andythenorth> | or svn still? |
| 07:42 | <@Alberth> | svn, afaik |
| 07:42 | <Cadadadry> | wondering what they are made for ? |
| 07:42 | <andythenorth> | I am dubious about all this svn advice in that page |
| 07:42 | <andythenorth> | given that previous ruling method was hg for ~5 years or so |
| 07:42 | <andythenorth> | and now there’s a debate about git |
| 07:42 | <@Alberth> | oh, in yellow at the right, you mean Cadadadry ? |
| 07:43 | <Cadadadry> | yes :) |
| 07:44 | <@Alberth> | how nice, nobody added cdist to the wiki yet :p |
| 07:44 | <@Alberth> | it's cargo-dist |
| 07:45 | <andythenorth> | I have half a page of notes about how cargo-dist actually works |
| 07:45 | <@Alberth> | do you have a station where trains load cargo for more than one station? |
| 07:45 | <andythenorth> | for the wiki |
| 07:45 | <Cadadadry> | is there some kind of detailed handbook about new features ? couldnt find it on wiki |
| 07:45 | <andythenorth> | the current page is lies iirc |
| 07:45 | <@Alberth> | *the same cargo |
| 07:45 | <andythenorth> | cargodist page https://wiki.openttd.org/Cargodist |
| 07:45 | <@Alberth> | quite non-readable |
| 07:45 | <Cadadadry> | yes I do |
| 07:46 | <@Alberth> | open the station window there and click on the + |
| 07:46 | <@Alberth> | you get 2 lines under it |
| 07:46 | <@Alberth> | each line lists what part of the cargo at the top-line goes to where |
| 07:46 | <Cadadadry> | it proposes me to "reserve" some goods, but how does that work ? |
| 07:47 | <@Alberth> | it's automatic (well, if you enable cargo-dist, that is) |
| 07:47 | <@Alberth> | it means the train currently in the station will get that |
| 07:47 | <@Alberth> | ie "resevred for that train" |
| 07:48 | <@Alberth> | if you stop the trains from going into the stations, you get an amount of cargo build up, distributed to all destinations that you have there |
| 07:48 | <@Alberth> | cargo-dist handles the distribution |
| 07:49 | <Cadadadry> | so, the "+" is only an option for more info ? it's no setting ? |
| 07:49 | <@Alberth> | yes, just more info |
| 07:49 | <andythenorth> | cargodist suffers from two misconceptions generally |
| 07:49 | <@Alberth> | cargo-dist settings are in the settings |
| 07:50 | <Cadadadry> | hmm got to tell you my game is in french, so talking about general settings will be hard :D |
| 07:50 | <Cadadadry> | thx for your help anyway ;) |
| 07:51 | <Cadadadry> | btw I've got a Mumble server if you guys want to talk about the game on the mike |
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| 07:53 | <Cadadadry> | I wish I could share a game with another player, but not a competitive one, just a coop... |
| 07:53 | <Cadadadry> | Anybody interested ? |
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| 07:56 | <andythenorth> | Cadadadry: it’s quite rare that anybody joins an MP game from asking here :) |
| 07:56 | <andythenorth> | you could try Coop though http://www.openttdcoop.org/ |
| 07:56 | <Cadadadry> | cheers andy :) |
| 07:58 | <andythenorth> | quak ? |
| 08:00 | <Cadadadry> | looks like I'll have to reinstall TS3... |
| 08:00 | <Cadadadry> | AFK 5 min... |
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| 08:09 | <andythenorth> | adf88: are you +/-1 to closing this? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5375 |
| 08:09 | <andythenorth> | issue is ancient |
| 08:10 | <adf88> | hi, let me look... |
| 08:11 | <adf88> | +1 |
| 08:11 | <frosch123> | hoi |
| 08:12 | <adf88> | while there might be some issue in this area, it wasn't pointed out properly, the argumentation is false |
| 08:12 | <andythenorth> | I should close, or you will? I’m happy to |
| 08:14 | <adf88> | do the honors |
| 08:15 | <adf88> | you're right that "Issue has aged, there is no sign that it's still relevant to anyone. " |
| 08:17 | <andythenorth> | done |
| 08:27 | <andythenorth> | sounds like nonsense to me https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5859 |
| 08:27 | <andythenorth> | we don’t need this kind of change |
| 08:28 | <frosch123> | it's a code simplification wihtout change |
| 08:28 | <frosch123> | if it is correct, it is good |
| 08:29 | <andythenorth> | I closed it on this basis https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5859 |
| 08:29 | <andythenorth> | I can reopen |
| 08:30 | <frosch123> | i would disagree, reopen :) |
| 08:30 | <frosch123> | we need more people who can refactor code |
| 08:31 | <frosch123> | i am sure this task got onto my todo list in 2014 and then got burried :) |
| 08:31 | <@Alberth> | juanjo is often right |
| 08:31 | <andythenorth> | done |
| 08:32 | <Cadadadry> | A big thank you to you all coders to have brought back TTD from the grave, and fixed a lot of bugs :) |
| 08:33 | <Cadadadry> | I'm still exploring new content, but got to admit I feel lost :/ |
| 08:34 | <frosch123> | no surprise, new user experience is hard :) |
| 08:34 | <Cadadadry> | Does anyone remember "A-train" ? |
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| 08:35 | <frosch123> | i heard about it, but never played it |
| 08:35 | <Alkel_U3> | sure, I used to play that |
| 08:35 | <Cadadadry> | :) |
| 08:35 | <andythenorth> | testing patches is slow eh :) |
| 08:35 | <Cadadadry> | you must be over 50 now ^^ |
| 08:35 | <frosch123> | you can play games at age 10 |
| 08:35 | <Cadadadry> | true |
| 08:35 | <Alkel_U3> | actually not even close, I've just always been into older games :-) |
| 08:36 | <Cadadadry> | congrats :) |
| 08:36 | <Cadadadry> | brb |
| 08:36 | <Alkel_U3> | I had to reboot my win98 in tru DOS mode to run it, it wouldn't otherwise |
| 08:38 | <andythenorth> | https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5951 is worth a look |
| 08:38 | <andythenorth> | distant-join is hard to explain to 7 year olds |
| 08:44 | <Cadadadry> | @andythenorth If find that idea is great (joining distant stations through a button) |
| 08:47 | <andythenorth> | I would do it simpler |
| 08:47 | <andythenorth> | I would invert the current behaviour, and simply show the list of nearby stations always on build |
| 08:47 | <andythenorth> | unless ctrl is used |
| 08:47 | <andythenorth> | works better on touch |
| 08:48 | <andythenorth> | and makes the mechanic more obvious, at the cost of extra clicks |
| 08:49 | <Cadadadry> | yes, that would help managing stations into big cities |
| 08:50 | <Cadadadry> | I'm now on #openttdcoop TS server, but 0 user online :/ |
| 08:51 | <andythenorth> | :P |
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| 08:57 | <frosch123> | "3390 files, 410k lines of code" <- factorio people seem to love short files |
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| 08:59 | <andythenorth> | ach, which patch am I even testing now ;P |
| 08:59 | * | andythenorth losing count |
| 08:59 | <frosch123> | LordAro: what's your opinion on boost? i have the impression that many people turn their backs on it |
| 09:01 | <andythenorth> | does openttd have a hotkey editor? |
| 09:02 | <frosch123> | no, not sure whether i remember a partial patch for it |
| 09:02 | <andythenorth> | FS someone reporting a crash with it |
| 09:03 | * | andythenorth must be misreading |
| 09:03 | <Cadadadry> | going back to game, cya all and thx for helping ;) |
| 09:04 | <andythenorth> | https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6375 |
| 09:04 | <andythenorth> | I set SPACE as a hotkey, OpenTTD crashes on exit |
| 09:05 | <frosch123> | andythenorth: there is hotkeys.cfg |
| 09:05 | <frosch123> | you can edit the hotkeys outside of ottd |
| 09:05 | <andythenorth> | I did that :) |
| 09:07 | <andythenorth> | whatever else the patch does, it cause OpenTTD to crash on exit reliably |
| 09:07 | <andythenorth> | BAD FEATURE |
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| 09:18 | <FLHerne> | Useful idea, though |
| 09:20 | <andythenorth> | so many useful ideas |
| 09:20 | <andythenorth> | they are probably 30:1 on useful implementations |
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| 09:22 | <andythenorth> | maybe 10:1 |
| 09:22 | <andythenorth> | there are ~90 patches on FS |
| 09:22 | <andythenorth> | probably 10 are valid |
| 09:23 | <Wolf01> | Today is a BAD day, I don't feel well (because of the weather change), a friend's HDD reached 161°C and died :| |
| 09:24 | <Eddi|zuHause> | how did he manage that? |
| 09:24 | <Wolf01> | Dunno |
| 09:25 | <Wolf01> | Could be SMART failure to report a wrong temp |
| 09:25 | <Alkel_U3> | is that still _that_ friend? |
| 09:25 | <Wolf01> | No, another one |
| 09:25 | <Wolf01> | I melted one HDD too, tbh |
| 09:26 | <Wolf01> | The one fill with holiday and family photos |
| 09:26 | <Wolf01> | *filled |
| 09:26 | <Alkel_U3> | "Data you don't have at least at two places are data you don't care about." --old wisdom |
| 09:27 | <Alkel_U3> | I learned it the hard way, too :( |
| 09:27 | <Wolf01> | I have 3 backups now |
| 09:27 | <Eddi|zuHause> | that's why i invested into 3 HDDs to make a RAID5 |
| 09:27 | <Wolf01> | Still a problem if the entire machine gets destroyed |
| 09:28 | <Eddi|zuHause> | sure, but then i probably have bigger problems |
| 09:28 | <Wolf01> | I have data in pc which backups in nas, which backups again the most important data to another separate HDD |
| 09:29 | <Eddi|zuHause> | you should have backups in another location, in that case |
| 09:29 | <Wolf01> | Yup, mine are in 2 different and distant rooms of the house |
| 09:29 | <Wolf01> | Problem is when... I get flooded :E |
| 09:30 | <Eddi|zuHause> | at work we have a raid10 across different houses |
| 09:30 | <Eddi|zuHause> | or raid15, not sure |
| 09:31 | <Wolf01> | I read "we have a radio across different houses" |
| 09:31 | <Eddi|zuHause> | you are too 1337 for this world |
| 09:32 | <Wolf01> | I'm you, but italian |
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| 09:44 | <andythenorth> | frosch123: ever tried writing an OpenTTD roadmap? o_O |
| 09:44 | * | andythenorth is obliged to write annual product roadmaps :| |
| 09:46 | <Wolf01> | We had roadmaps up to 1.3 iirc, I don't know if they were respected btw |
| 09:50 | <Eddi|zuHause> | they kinda devolved into wishlists |
| 09:50 | <frosch123> | easy: 1. make c++11 capable farm, 2a. port to harfbuzz, 2b. port to sdl2, 2c. replace need for custom containers with c++11 emplace stuff, 3b. add os cursor support, 4b add font gui, 3c replace global pools with something that allows independent instances of pools, 4c make newgrf stuff run independent instances, 5c1 make newgrf preview, 5c2 run independen newgrf callbacks in paralle, 2d split drawing loop into parts accessing game data and |
| 09:50 | <frosch123> | stuff accessing sprites with a pipeline inbetween, 3d make drawing multi-threaded |
| 09:51 | <frosch123> | how much of that is on *any* other roadmap? :p |
| 09:51 | <andythenorth> | not one I’ve seen |
| 09:51 | <frosch123> | see, that's the problem, the trick is to align intentions |
| 09:51 | <andythenorth> | isn’t it |
| 09:51 | <LordAro> | frosch123: boost is... tricky. lots of very nice things in it, but it's a very big dependency |
| 09:51 | <frosch123> | at least we seem to have 3 people interested in c++11 stuff, but that still doesn't tell whether they will disagree in details :) |
| 09:52 | <andythenorth> | I am quite prepared to keep reading FS, testing patches, and saying no to people |
| 09:52 | <LordAro> | i'm of the opinion that you need to go "all in" with it or not at all |
| 09:52 | <andythenorth> | but the actual goals vary depending who is in this channel at the time :P |
| 09:52 | <andythenorth> | and there’s no BDFL or active project leader |
| 09:52 | <LordAro> | and i think it'd be quite tricky to go "all in" with it in ottd's current state |
| 09:52 | <frosch123> | LordAro: i was not asking in ottd context |
| 09:53 | <andythenorth> | the goals here are pretty good https://wiki.openttd.org/FAQ_development#What_are_the_goals_of_the_offical_branch.3F |
| 09:53 | <LordAro> | frosch123: do let me know if there's anything i can help with wrt compile farm/c++11/libraries tho |
| 09:53 | <frosch123> | i just read fff, and found reaccuring themes from other sourcers |
| 09:53 | <LordAro> | frosch123: ah yeah |
| 09:53 | <andythenorth> | but “improve the user interface” leaves a gap as wide as a barn door for patchers |
| 09:53 | <LordAro> | frosch123: yeah, that fff echoed my opinion of it quite we |
| 09:53 | <LordAro> | well* |
| 09:55 | <frosch123> | andythenorth: sometimes i think i am too old. about everything has been suggested and discussed before, i have settled my opinion on most, and i am tired of repeating the arguments :) |
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| 09:57 | <frosch123> | LordAro: btw. compile farm for linux and osx seems to be about done, i have no information on the status for win |
| 09:57 | <andythenorth> | I was reading a python module ticket edit war this week |
| 09:58 | <andythenorth> | prevailing rule is, module maintainer’s word is law, unless Guido over-rides them |
| 09:58 | <andythenorth> | or they piss off enough people and rage quit |
| 09:59 | <Wolf01> | Roadmap for 1.8: improve the game |
| 09:59 | <andythenorth> | :P |
| 09:59 | <Wolf01> | ...fix bugs, add new bugs, feature new features |
| 09:59 | <andythenorth> | there’s nobody who can be BDFL |
| 10:00 | <andythenorth> | maybe we split up areas of concern, and find somebody whose word is law for each |
| 10:00 | <andythenorth> | e.g. I am massively -1 to adding any further complexity to UI |
| 10:00 | <andythenorth> | and mostly -1 to changing anything that is well established, without very good reason |
| 10:00 | <Wolf01> | Remove the UI? |
| 10:00 | <frosch123> | andythenorth: anyway, ottd has become very feature driven, in my imagination it was more refactoring driven in the past; i prefer the latter |
| 10:01 | <andythenorth> | that is interesting |
| 10:01 | <frosch123> | but well, may also be false memories :) |
| 10:01 | <andythenorth> | maybe |
| 10:02 | <Eddi|zuHause> | c++ move, gui rewrite, "new map array", ... |
| 10:02 | <frosch123> | competing pool rewrites :) |
| 10:02 | <Eddi|zuHause> | lots of refactoring going on, with the intention to make more features |
| 10:02 | <andythenorth> | for me, the best commits are the very small UI tweaks |
| 10:02 | <andythenorth> | the most interesting problems are the extension of the content APIs |
| 10:02 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i'm sure there is lots of refactoring to be found in cirdans branch |
| 10:03 | <andythenorth> | refactoring I can’t play, I’m not a good enough programmer :P |
| 10:05 | <@peter1138> | step 1) play minecraft |
| 10:05 | <Wolf01> | andythenorth: refactoring is like with lego, you do and undo trying to keep the functions working until you are satisfied |
| 10:07 | <andythenorth> | I refactor newgrf continuously |
| 10:07 | <andythenorth> | but not so much C++ :P |
| 10:10 | <andythenorth> | frosch123: w.r.t actually doing something, not just words :) https://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/NotRoadTypes#ToDo_list |
| 10:10 | <andythenorth> | how much of that is nice-to-have ponies? |
| 10:14 | <LordAro> | frosch123: about done? |
| 10:18 | <frosch123> | LordAro: http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/newfarm/ <- andy confirmed the osx binaries working |
| 10:19 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 10:19 | <andythenorth> | so this farm is reprocible, e.g. I could built it locally? |
| 10:19 | <andythenorth> | reproducible * |
| 10:20 | <frosch123> | the win part won't :) |
| 10:20 | <andythenorth> | ha |
| 10:20 | * | andythenorth thinking about patch packs etc |
| 10:20 | <frosch123> | frosch123: i wondered whether we should jgrpp on frontpage |
| 10:20 | <frosch123> | download A for stability, download B for features |
| 10:21 | <andythenorth> | I think officially linked patchpacks is a thing |
| 10:21 | <frosch123> | it all depends on how easy LordAro's new site is to use |
| 10:21 | <andythenorth> | I think the description…could use work :P |
| 10:21 | <frosch123> | initially i hoped gitlab would solve it :) |
| 10:21 | <andythenorth> | I dispute that version A lacks features |
| 10:21 | <andythenorth> | download B for dubious features :P |
| 10:22 | <frosch123> | andythenorth: well, i am all fine with trunk doing refactoring, and someone else adding all the features |
| 10:22 | <andythenorth> | +0.5 :P |
| 10:23 | <andythenorth> | I would be happier with trunk refactoring AND adding more content APIs |
| 10:24 | <frosch123> | i am fine with newgrf, but we have noone interested in ai/gs |
| 10:25 | <frosch123> | about my only input in ai/gs was kicking people when they named stuff differently in different places |
| 10:26 | <andythenorth> | did TB do NoGo? |
| 10:26 | <andythenorth> | one day it just...appeared |
| 10:26 | <frosch123> | tb did the base of both noai and nogo |
| 10:26 | <frosch123> | yexo did the details of noai |
| 10:27 | <andythenorth> | Zuu is awol? o_O |
| 10:27 | <frosch123> | and zuu/albert/rb did the details of nogo |
| 10:27 | <andythenorth> | ENoMaintainer |
| 10:28 | <andythenorth> | so you can do core and newgrf |
| 10:28 | <andythenorth> | I’ll just say ‘no’ to everything about UI, so I don’t even need commit rights to be maintainer |
| 10:28 | <andythenorth> | alberth can review your stuff |
| 10:28 | <andythenorth> | adf8* has his own thing going |
| 10:28 | <andythenorth> | and Eddi|zuHause can be the official maintainer of the platonic ideal spec :) |
| 10:29 | <andythenorth> | all neat and tidy, solved |
| 10:29 | <frosch123> | well, i miss smatz :) |
| 10:29 | <andythenorth> | I miss dalestan :P |
| 10:29 | <andythenorth> | oh I missed peter1138 |
| 10:30 | <andythenorth> | peter1138 can maintain a list of random patches that he declares not good enough :) |
| 10:30 | <andythenorth> | whilst also asking us why we make everything so complicated |
| 10:30 | <andythenorth> | I’m 99% certain I employ a clone of peter1138 |
| 10:33 | <@peter1138> | no use employing me |
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| 10:39 | <Eddi|zuHause> | no use employing me either, but i found someone who does :p |
| 10:45 | <andythenorth> | bbl |
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| 11:21 | <FrenkyPohodar> | Hello. Would anyone be able to help with the openttd server? On win7 I released it as a didikate server, the ports are redirected and open. the rver seems to be running but I'm not able to connect to it, it seems like it's on-line it's server Cz / SK_Budujeme_mesta / City_Buildings, 5000pop (1921-2050) I got something wrong, but what? Thank you in advance for your advice and help. |
| 11:22 | <frosch123> | http://www.openttd.org/en/servers <- it's listed there |
| 11:22 | <frosch123> | so the problem is with the client |
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| 12:43 | <andythenorth> | is it just me? |
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| 12:50 | <Wolf01> | I can't understand for how much time I slept, is it friday yet? |
| 12:51 | <andythenorth> | kinda |
| 12:52 | <andythenorth> | so is ‘rage’ the natural destiny of all people who handle feature requests? o_O |
| 12:55 | <Wolf01> | Nah |
| 12:56 | <Wolf01> | You are taking the tasks too much seriously |
| 12:57 | <andythenorth> | would you go for more lulz? |
| 12:58 | <@peter1138> | didikate? heh |
| 12:59 | <andythenorth> | is ‘so what’ a valid response here? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6121 |
| 13:02 | <@peter1138> | heh |
| 13:03 | <andythenorth> | things not a goal #238: pissing around with the vehicle payments |
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| 13:05 | <@Alberth> | imho he has somewhat of a point, trouble is that changing the payment alone is likely to cause havoc in other areas |
| 13:06 | <@Alberth> | ideally you'd fix it by changing the vehicle speed, I think |
| 13:06 | <_dp_> | that patch does something weird, that shouldn't be required to just change profit formula |
| 13:06 | <@peter1138> | yeah but that causes havoc in other areas |
| 13:06 | <@Alberth> | that might break a lot of newgrfs? |
| 13:06 | <@peter1138> | yeah |
| 13:07 | <@peter1138> | the 28/32 pixel length difference is related |
| 13:07 | <@Alberth> | like "all newgrf"s :p |
| 13:07 | <@peter1138> | if you fix the speed issue, 28 becomes the correct length after all |
| 13:07 | <@Alberth> | yeah, you'd want that fixed too then |
| 13:07 | <@peter1138> | so every set that uses 32 would be messed up |
| 13:07 | <@peter1138> | dbsetxl would be fine |
| 13:07 | <@peter1138> | and that's about it :p |
| 13:08 | <@Alberth> | haha :) |
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| 13:09 | <frosch123> | peter1138: trains are 29 :p |
| 13:09 | <_dp_> | Alberth, why change vehicle speeds? that won't help with manhattan distance payment |
| 13:09 | <@peter1138> | i thought it might be one of the two |
| 13:09 | <@peter1138> | either way :p |
| 13:09 | * | andythenorth is looking for something to close, to get to 350 FS |
| 13:09 | <andythenorth> | also…trying to learn what the goals are :P |
| 13:09 | <andythenorth> | fools errand |
| 13:10 | <frosch123> | andythenorth: i think the goal was to have fun |
| 13:10 | <_dp_> | it may make sense to change diagonal lenght to match euclidean but it still does nothing wrt payment "fairness" |
| 13:12 | <@peter1138> | i don't understand the problem |
| 13:12 | <@peter1138> | "earning capacity increased" for trains? |
| 13:12 | <@peter1138> | isn't it increased for trains, planes and ships? |
| 13:12 | <@peter1138> | RVs lose out i guess |
| 13:12 | <@peter1138> | and then surely "that's just how it is" |
| 13:12 | <_dp_> | you either use road metric aka manhattan which breaks trains or use train/plane distance which is not fair for rvs |
| 13:13 | <andythenorth> | peter1138: it is how it is |
| 13:13 | <andythenorth> | close :P |
| 13:13 | * | andythenorth learning about newgrf airports |
| 13:14 | <@peter1138> | are they a thing? |
| 13:14 | <andythenorth> | slightly |
| 13:14 | <frosch123> | andythenorth: i think there was a majority for user-built airports |
| 13:14 | <andythenorth> | weren’t there multiple failed patches, with extra drama? |
| 13:15 | <andythenorth> | I think I missed it |
| 13:15 | <andythenorth> | apparently We Are All Very Bad People, it’s somewhere on the internet |
| 13:15 | * | peter1138 ponders razing this village |
| 13:15 | <@peter1138> | ah yes |
| 13:15 | <@peter1138> | we are |
| 13:15 | <andythenorth> | anyway, this one actually pisses me off https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5968 |
| 13:15 | <@peter1138> | for some reason |
| 13:16 | <andythenorth> | there’s all this airport bollocks in the game |
| 13:16 | <frosch123> | andythenorth: http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/tba6907.png <- before i quit forums, i think there was a more modern patch for that |
| 13:16 | <andythenorth> | how the hell does that ever work? |
| 13:16 | <andythenorth> | newgrf state machines? |
| 13:16 | <@peter1138> | heh |
| 13:17 | <frosch123> | no, either rv logic or pbs logic |
| 13:17 | <@peter1138> | what's wrong with more than one airport in a town? |
| 13:17 | <frosch123> | well, or ship logic :p |
| 13:17 | <andythenorth> | peter1138: some kind of bullshit in MP with griefing |
| 13:17 | <andythenorth> | FS is making me wish MP would just go away |
| 13:18 | <andythenorth> | Other People are A Problem |
| 13:18 | <andythenorth> | or he’s chosen bad AIs |
| 13:18 | <andythenorth> | that spam towns with airports |
| 13:18 | <andythenorth> | like err…choose a different AI? |
| 13:18 | <andythenorth> | "Oh noes there must be a setting" |
| 13:18 | * | andythenorth grumbles |
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| 13:22 | <@peter1138> | oops just spent 34 xp levels enchanting something with no effect :( |
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| 13:23 | <andythenorth> | I’m not really pissed off at Milsa :P |
| 13:23 | <andythenorth> | I’m pissed off with all the airport bollocks :) |
| 13:23 | <andythenorth> | limits, noise levels, faceted shit |
| 13:23 | <andythenorth> | town var: number of airports |
| 13:24 | <andythenorth> | airport or town cb: player tries to construct airport |
| 13:24 | <andythenorth> | airport var: owner company |
| 13:24 | <andythenorth> | return: allow, disallow |
| 13:24 | <andythenorth> | job done |
| 13:24 | <andythenorth> | delete: limits per town, noise limit |
| 13:24 | <andythenorth> | [message ends] |
| 13:25 | <_dp_> | andythenorth, and noone will ever use that coz newgrf |
| 13:25 | <andythenorth> | [shrug] |
| 13:25 | <andythenorth> | but all the feature requests can be closed |
| 13:25 | <_dp_> | andythenorth, won't stop people from opening new ones :p |
| 13:25 | <andythenorth> | that’s fine |
| 13:25 | <andythenorth> | the game isn’t to stop feature requests |
| 13:26 | <andythenorth> | the game is to close them having already won |
| 13:26 | <andythenorth> | game / metagame |
| 13:26 | <_dp_> | did I mention including newgrfs in savegame already? |
| 13:27 | <andythenorth> | “anticipating user need”, can do consulting on that at €1000/day |
| 13:27 | <andythenorth> | newgrfs can’t be included in savegame for [reasons] |
| 13:27 | <andythenorth> | copyright bollocks probably |
| 13:27 | <andythenorth> | yeah, no redistribution of some people’s grfs |
| 13:28 | <frosch123> | you can certainly streamline the load process |
| 13:28 | <andythenorth> | I never submit crash reports because I always have non-bananas grfs :P |
| 13:28 | <frosch123> | like "you can't load this!" -> "would you like to download missing stuff?" |
| 13:28 | <_dp_> | well, I own my negrfs so I'd like my servers to include them... |
| 13:29 | <frosch123> | _dp_: include 256mb of 32bpp sprites in the samegame? :p |
| 13:29 | <_dp_> | Problem with negrfs currents is that it's never worth to use them just for configuration |
| 13:29 | <andythenorth> | this is ‘bug in newgrfs’? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6312 |
| 13:29 | <_dp_> | frosch123, I don't have sprites in newgrfs, just some configuration bullshit :p |
| 13:29 | <andythenorth> | newgrf planes shouldn’t use range, it’s a bug |
| 13:31 | <_dp_> | btw, we currently do some server-side limiting on airports |
| 13:31 | <_dp_> | it's max airports per company though, not per town |
| 13:32 | <frosch123> | is there a difference between limiting airports and limitnig aircraft? |
| 13:32 | <_dp_> | frosch123, ... |
| 13:32 | <andythenorth> | on the face of it…yes...? |
| 13:32 | <frosch123> | wrt. restricting gameplay |
| 13:33 | <_dp_> | we have 5 airport limit and 100 aircrafts |
| 13:33 | <frosch123> | hmm, i guess it depends on the map scaling |
| 13:33 | <andythenorth> | can I actually close a FS saying aircraft range is a bug? |
| 13:33 | <ST2> | we merged this: https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=70691 to apply some limitations |
| 13:33 | <ST2> | maybe it's ugly.. but works xD |
| 13:33 | <frosch123> | on a 1Mx1M map, you can have 10k planes with just 2 airports |
| 13:34 | <andythenorth> | not all newgrf additions have been wise |
| 13:34 | <frosch123> | like nrt :) |
| 13:34 | <andythenorth> | not added yet :P |
| 13:35 | * | andythenorth kills the kittens and closes the FS |
| 13:35 | <_dp_> | limiting number of airports limits amount of resources that can be acquired with them (unlike limiting planes) |
| 13:36 | <frosch123> | i would expect the reverse |
| 13:36 | <_dp_> | in particular valuables, with 5 airports you can only connect 5 banks, not every bank on the map and cover town val requirements for eternity |
| 13:37 | <andythenorth> | why not just disable planes? |
| 13:37 | <frosch123> | ah, it's about "deliver some" goals |
| 13:37 | <frosch123> | true, you can build a single plane which circles through 50 airports |
| 13:37 | <andythenorth> | there’s GS for the goals? |
| 13:38 | <frosch123> | i remember andy delivering farm supplies by plane |
| 13:38 | <andythenorth> | ach, GS can’t have callbacks andythenorth is an idiot again :( |
| 13:38 | <frosch123> | so i welcome the airport limit :) |
| 13:38 | <andythenorth> | frosch123: tractors by plane |
| 13:38 | <andythenorth> | and chainsaws |
| 13:38 | <andythenorth> | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mfz1YrpMbBg |
| 13:39 | <frosch123> | andythenorth: anyway, tile-based airports would solve everything |
| 13:39 | <frosch123> | you can make the taxiway and runway shared like roads |
| 13:39 | <frosch123> | and have each company have their terminal |
| 13:39 | <andythenorth> | with player owned terminals? |
| 13:39 | <_dp_> | I prefer to balance planes instead of disabling them, more variety is good, adds more options for the game tactics |
| 13:40 | <andythenorth> | frosch123: that’s crazy talk :P |
| 13:40 | <frosch123> | andythenorth: only the terminal has a catchment area |
| 13:40 | <andythenorth> | is there actually a viable implementation? o_O |
| 13:40 | <frosch123> | andythenorth: why, i had a patch against r6907 |
| 13:40 | <andythenorth> | only 15k revisions old |
| 13:40 | <andythenorth> | 21k actually |
| 13:40 | <frosch123> | there have been at least 2 similar attemps on the forums |
| 13:41 | <frosch123> | andythenorth: also, all the plane limit stuff is to prevent them being overpowered; but that completely ruins the fun in using them |
| 13:41 | <andythenorth> | doesn’t it |
| 13:42 | <_dp_> | having a terminal wouldn't hurt train/rv stations either to solve all that joining-catchement nonsense |
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| 13:42 | <andythenorth> | so we have |
| 13:42 | <andythenorth> | (1) town limit of airport by count |
| 13:42 | <andythenorth> | (2) town limit by noise |
| 13:42 | <andythenorth> | (3) irritating date restrictions on airport construction |
| 13:42 | <andythenorth> | (4) plane range |
| 13:42 | <andythenorth> | (5) plane speed factor |
| 13:42 | <andythenorth> | and still planes aren’t fixed? |
| 13:42 | <andythenorth> | what did we learn? |
| 13:43 | <frosch123> | (6) infra cost |
| 13:43 | <frosch123> | *maint |
| 13:43 | <andythenorth> | oh that too |
| 13:43 | <andythenorth> | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46h7oP9eiBk |
| 13:43 | <_dp_> | andythenorth, not enough settings :p |
| 13:43 | <andythenorth> | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_holes |
| 13:44 | <_dp_> | from economy viewpoint only plane speed matters and even 1/4 is not enough to nerf planes |
| 13:45 | <@peter1138> | "even 1/4" 1/4 is the standard |
| 13:45 | <andythenorth> | I don’t understand this balancing bollocks? |
| 13:45 | <andythenorth> | is balancing a goal? |
| 13:45 | <@peter1138> | apparently some people think the game is not about making a pretty railway layout :p |
| 13:45 | <frosch123> | not for me :) |
| 13:45 | <_dp_> | andythenorth, it's a goal for goal servers :p |
| 13:45 | <andythenorth> | if all transport types must balance, wtf do we bother having all these transport types? |
| 13:45 | <@DorpsGek> | Commit by translators :: r27911 /trunk/src/lang (hebrew.txt korean.txt) (2017-09-02 19:45:39 +0200 ) |
| 13:45 | <@DorpsGek> | -Update from Eints: |
| 13:45 | <andythenorth> | it’s fricking stupid |
| 13:45 | <@DorpsGek> | korean: 1 change by telk5093 |
| 13:45 | <@DorpsGek> | hebrew: 4 changes by dnd_man |
| 13:46 | <andythenorth> | frosch123: can I make it official? Balancing is not a goal? |
| 13:46 | <andythenorth> | :P |
| 13:46 | <frosch123> | it's a rewording of "do not change the game mechanics", right? |
| 13:47 | <andythenorth> | town growth, ratings, etc? |
| 13:47 | <_dp_> | just add "mp is not a goal" :p |
| 13:47 | <andythenorth> | original industry production, economy |
| 13:47 | <andythenorth> | how does minecraft do goal servers? |
| 13:48 | <_dp_> | andythenorth, command blocks |
| 13:48 | <_dp_> | and adventure mode or whatever is it called |
| 13:48 | <andythenorth> | can’t find any goal servers for minecraft so far |
| 13:49 | <_dp_> | andythenorth, idk about "goal" goal, put there are plenty of competitive ones |
| 13:49 | <_dp_> | like missile wars |
| 13:51 | <andythenorth> | frosch123: if I say it a few times, it becomes true? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6121 |
| 13:51 | <_dp_> | oh, there is also builtin scoreboard in minecraft |
| 13:52 | <_dp_> | andythenorth, isn't NRT changing game mechanics btw? ;) |
| 13:52 | <andythenorth> | no |
| 13:52 | <andythenorth> | [wavey hands] |
| 13:52 | <andythenorth> | depends if we include the new icon for light rail :P |
| 13:53 | <andythenorth> | nothing changes though |
| 13:53 | <frosch123> | andythenorth: https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=29683 |
| 13:53 | <_dp_> | andythenorth, how about roads that towns can't grow on? |
| 13:53 | <andythenorth> | how about them? :) |
| 13:53 | <andythenorth> | sounds like an idea |
| 13:54 | <andythenorth> | frosch123: do I need to read all 14 pages? o_O |
| 13:54 | <_dp_> | andythenorth, well, in current game mechanics town can grow on any road :p |
| 13:54 | <andythenorth> | frosch123: actually p14 seems to be enough |
| 13:54 | <frosch123> | andythenorth: maybe you can extract what people think about balancing |
| 13:54 | <andythenorth> | TL;DR people are wrong? |
| 13:54 | <frosch123> | by comparing what was suggested 10 years ago with what is suggested today |
| 13:55 | <andythenorth> | ok |
| 13:55 | <andythenorth> | I’ll read it |
| 13:55 | <andythenorth> | unfortunately, like a politician, I already have my conclusion :( |
| 13:55 | <andythenorth> | so I’ll just cherry pick evidence |
| 13:56 | <andythenorth> | balancing is nonsense, newgrf can solve most problems, end of message |
| 13:56 | * | andythenorth reading |
| 13:56 | <frosch123> | too bad the pdf is not accessible |
| 13:56 | <andythenorth> | I probably shouldn’t post all my notes here as I go eh :P |
| 13:56 | <_dp_> | newgrfs are such a huge problem by themselves they hardly can solve anything :p |
| 13:57 | <andythenorth> | I don’t think you can sustain that argument _dp_ :) |
| 13:58 | <_dp_> | how many people was it who loaded any grf compared to game downloads? :p |
| 14:00 | <andythenorth> | propose an alternative to modifying the game with content? |
| 14:00 | <andythenorth> | every single foamer has to submit a patch to get their special train in the game? |
| 14:00 | <andythenorth> | and we have a setting for every single one? |
| 14:00 | <andythenorth> | frosch123: see, sense https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=542704#p542704 |
| 14:01 | <frosch123> | :) |
| 14:01 | <frosch123> | can we organise a shooting between _dp_, andy, pikka and dalestan? |
| 14:02 | <andythenorth> | frosch123: can add richk67 to team _dp_ https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=542852#p542852 |
| 14:03 | <frosch123> | i do not know dalestan's opinion on aircraft range |
| 14:03 | <frosch123> | dalestan coded planeset, so he probably would have one |
| 14:03 | <andythenorth> | “don’t add newgrf features that break orders”? |
| 14:03 | <andythenorth> | like the refit cb also |
| 14:04 | <frosch123> | probably "newgrf parameter: let the user pick their destiny" |
| 14:05 | <andythenorth> | reading this thread is painful :( |
| 14:05 | <andythenorth> | it’s like a wall of wrong :( |
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| 14:06 | <andythenorth> | “Well, I'd say the easiest solution to that problem is to…” is always followed by |
| 14:07 | <andythenorth> | “…add a boatload more complexity to post-hoc make my crap pet idea work" |
| 14:07 | <andythenorth> | The easiest solution would be to Drop The Crap Idea |
| 14:07 | <andythenorth> | where’s V453000 when he’s needed? |
| 14:07 | <andythenorth> | @summon V453000 |
| 14:07 | <@DorpsGek> | andythenorth: out of chalk |
| 14:09 | <andythenorth> | DJ Nekkid was doing really well here https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=543700#p543700 |
| 14:09 | <andythenorth> | until ‘subways’ |
| 14:10 | <frosch123> | how does subways make it into the balance topic? |
| 14:11 | <andythenorth> | the whole thing is endless ponies |
| 14:11 | <frosch123> | yep :) |
| 14:11 | <andythenorth> | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20sS5NxsSJM |
| 14:11 | <frosch123> | that's why i linked it :p |
| 14:11 | <andythenorth> | I would like to print this out very large, and frame it https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=559479#p559479 |
| 14:11 | <andythenorth> | then take a picture of it |
| 14:11 | <andythenorth> | and post the picture at the top of every single feature request page |
| 14:12 | <_dp_> | at this point I feel and hope that modding machinky will be a lot more easier than bothering with openttd |
| 14:13 | <frosch123> | depends how many bugs it copies from ottd |
| 14:13 | <frosch123> | factorio managed to copy quite a number |
| 14:14 | <@Alberth> | modding is easy, getting agreement between all players is the puzzle :p |
| 14:15 | <andythenorth> | content-based modding eliminates the need for agreement |
| 14:17 | <andythenorth> | Wolf01: o_O ? https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=566129#p566129 |
| 14:18 | <andythenorth> | idiocy or elegant troll? https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=577818#p577818 |
| 14:19 | <frosch123> | the follow-up post takes it serious |
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| 14:21 | <andythenorth> | meanwhiel |
| 14:21 | <andythenorth> | meanwhile * https://bugs.openttd.org/task/1212 |
| 14:21 | <andythenorth> | in or out? |
| 14:23 | <frosch123> | too many graphic issues |
| 14:23 | <frosch123> | it's like crossing bridges |
| 14:24 | <frosch123> | implementing is easy, but it will glitch like hell |
| 14:24 | <andythenorth> | out |
| 14:24 | <andythenorth> | there’s a real one being planned in Norway, but eh |
| 14:29 | <andythenorth> | closed |
| 14:29 | <andythenorth> | I really like this idea https://bugs.openttd.org/task/2445 |
| 14:29 | <andythenorth> | but I think it’s much more complex than it sounds |
| 14:30 | <andythenorth> | also it could be done in newgrf, but only if magic bulldozer is enabled |
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| 14:35 | <andythenorth> | Wolf01: I love the style of engine on this https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=53&v=qsXzZ_5JpcM |
| 14:35 | <andythenorth> | single stud pistons |
| 14:37 | <andythenorth> | FFS, the 7 year old’s favourite thing to do in the game is grow cities :( |
| 14:37 | <andythenorth> | it’s like a plague |
| 14:38 | <frosch123> | the most exciting thing for me at that age was the concorde |
| 14:39 | <_dp_> | how is 2445 different from just funding? |
| 14:40 | <frosch123> | and the biggest disappointment was that the airports were the bottleneck |
| 14:40 | <frosch123> | _dp_: 2445 limits it to an area, like 128x128, which is significant when playing on 1Mx1M map |
| 14:41 | <andythenorth> | it’s a great idea |
| 14:41 | <andythenorth> | I’m going to add it to FIRS |
| 14:41 | <frosch123> | how? |
| 14:43 | <_dp_> | frosch123, ah, yeah, somewhat interesting |
| 14:43 | <_dp_> | that fail chance is no go though for competitive servers |
| 14:44 | <_dp_> | or should I say for competitive play |
| 14:44 | <andythenorth> | frosch123: build a survey camp industry (very cheap) |
| 14:44 | <_dp_> | since people compete on vanilla servers all the time |
| 14:44 | <andythenorth> | then force primaries to locate near that if there is one on the map |
| 14:45 | <andythenorth> | survey camp counts industries, and closes once a new primary has been built |
| 14:45 | <frosch123> | andythenorth: make the camp close after 6 months |
| 14:45 | <andythenorth> | (a) it’s a terrible BAD FEATURE |
| 14:45 | <andythenorth> | (b) I can’t count all the industries, unless maybe I bitstuff enough |
| 14:45 | <andythenorth> | (c) it’s annoying having to wait for closure :P |
| 14:45 | <frosch123> | (d) users won't understand it |
| 14:45 | <andythenorth> | (e) waste of time |
| 14:47 | <andythenorth> | strikes me that doing it in game would work like: |
| 14:47 | <andythenorth> | 1. select prospect |
| 14:47 | <andythenorth> | 2. click on a tile |
| 14:47 | <andythenorth> | 3. openttd tries to build within n tiles of that x,y |
| 14:48 | <frosch123> | or a) select area b) spawn in area with probability depending on area size |
| 14:49 | <frosch123> | though that's likely hard to explain |
| 14:49 | <andythenorth> | seems like TMFTLB |
| 14:50 | <andythenorth> | but it is annoying |
| 14:50 | <andythenorth> | I like prospecting, but not so much on a large map |
| 14:50 | <andythenorth> | it works great on 256x256 or smaller |
| 14:50 | <frosch123> | well, i only used prospecing after connecting everything |
| 14:50 | <frosch123> | so it's behaviour is quite fine |
| 14:50 | <frosch123> | it just fails on stupid sized maps, but they fail anyway |
| 14:51 | <frosch123> | it's just a mechanism to make the game continue |
| 14:51 | <frosch123> | not to play industry giant |
| 14:51 | <andythenorth> | I’m closing |
| 14:52 | <andythenorth> | it _could_ be at least trialled in newgrf if wanted |
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| 15:02 | <y2000rtc> | Hi there, it's me Zdenek again. I don't want to waste your time. I would like to ask you for help. I play TTD (OpenTTD) since when I was child and right now I want to edit two grf files. 1) edit grf of rail for to have rail with different speed but with the same graphics. Old one. There is many graphics of rails due to speed. I want to use different speed but with the same design. |
| 15:02 | <y2000rtc> | What do you say for that. Someone who will find any time for me? |
| 15:05 | <Alkel_U3> | if there is no source available, you'll likely need to run that grf through grfcodec to get NFO and learn to read and edit that. |
| 15:06 | <Alkel_U3> | better yet, try contacting the author of that grf |
| 15:06 | <@Alberth> | there are two approaches, learn NML, and make a grf yourself, or decompile a grf to NFO, change the graphics, and re-assemble (and be sure to change the grfid as well toa avoid clashes) |
| 15:07 | <y2000rtc> | I already tried to contact author. Without success. :((( |
| 15:07 | <y2000rtc> | Ok Alkel, where and how to make steps which you mentioned please? |
| 15:07 | <@Alberth> | former is by far the cleanest |
| 15:07 | <Alkel_U3> | maybe it would be easier to just learn NML and code it from scratch, NFO is very not human-friendly :-) (basically hex editing) |
| 15:07 | <andythenorth> | fork Termite |
| 15:08 | <andythenorth> | http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/termite/repository |
| 15:08 | <andythenorth> | Termite uses baseset graphics for RAIL |
| 15:08 | <andythenorth> | and ELRL |
| 15:08 | <andythenorth> | fork Termite, add more railtypes, but with speed limits |
| 15:08 | <andythenorth> | has to be built with Make though |
| 15:08 | <andythenorth> | y2000rtc: ^^^^ |
| 15:09 | <y2000rtc> | Gentlemen, I'm really novice. So, I have to download some tool for decompiling of GRF file. After that I have to edit something and last step is to compile again. |
| 15:09 | <andythenorth> | that is one route |
| 15:09 | <andythenorth> | or find a grf that has src, and clone it |
| 15:09 | <y2000rtc> | fork Termite is what? |
| 15:09 | <andythenorth> | edit the src, compile it |
| 15:09 | <y2000rtc> | Any SW? |
| 15:09 | <andythenorth> | ‘fork’ just means ‘clone it and make your own version' |
| 15:10 | <andythenorth> | Termite uses nml, which is easier than nfo |
| 15:10 | <Wolf01> | We really need to do a web interface to build (simple) grfs... |
| 15:10 | <andythenorth> | I posted in forums about it |
| 15:10 | <andythenorth> | I think it’s a Terrible Idea |
| 15:10 | <frosch123> | Wolf01: people do not want simple grfs, they want to modify existing complex grfs |
| 15:11 | <y2000rtc> | Ok, how to use Termite? Download it and? |
| 15:11 | <y2000rtc> | Sorry for my questions but I don't have any practice with that. |
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| 15:12 | <y2000rtc> | Alkel? |
| 15:13 | <Alkel_U3> | well, I'd say read through this https://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NMLTutorial |
| 15:13 | <andythenorth> | y2000rtc: what operating system do you have? |
| 15:14 | <y2000rtc> | Win7 but if is necessary I can make VM. |
| 15:15 | <andythenorth> | most grfs use some extra build tools that work on Windows, but are hard to get setup |
| 15:15 | <andythenorth> | generally they work out the box on Linux, and mostly on OS X |
| 15:15 | <y2000rtc> | I can try it use on Win7, XP, ... |
| 15:16 | * | andythenorth wonders if there’s a pure nml railtype grf |
| 15:16 | <andythenorth> | ah, the example one http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nml/repository/entry/examples/railtype/example_railtype.nml |
| 15:16 | <frosch123> | andythenorth: the postprocessor product is posted on bundles |
| 15:16 | <frosch123> | *preprocessor output |
| 15:16 | <andythenorth> | it is http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/termite/push/LATEST/ |
| 15:17 | <andythenorth> | y2000rtc: how much do you want to learn this? o-O |
| 15:17 | <andythenorth> | hmm 346 FS left |
| 15:18 | <y2000rtc> | I have two goals. First one to edit easiest way grf for to have what I need and second one is to learn really a lot for to understand. |
| 15:19 | <andythenorth> | ok I would suggest following agenda y2000rtc :) |
| 15:19 | <andythenorth> | 1. get nml compiler |
| 15:19 | <andythenorth> | 2. get source code for an existing grf (e.g. Termite, or nml example railtypes grf) |
| 15:19 | <andythenorth> | 3. check you can compile existing grf |
| 15:19 | <andythenorth> | 4. start editing to learn |
| 15:20 | <andythenorth> | 5. when you’ve learnt a bit, try and make the grf you want, by copy-paste from one of the existing, throwing out what you don’t need, adding what you want |
| 15:20 | <y2000rtc> | 1. where to get nml compiler sir? |
| 15:20 | <andythenorth> | good 1 |
| 15:20 | <andythenorth> | good question * |
| 15:21 | <frosch123> | https://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NMLTutorial explains it |
| 15:21 | <y2000rtc> | 2. is it possible to use only grf file without source code? |
| 15:21 | <@Alberth> | https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nml/ <-- it has download link |
| 15:21 | <andythenorth> | for 2. only if you want to learn nfo (hex code) |
| 15:22 | <andythenorth> | you likely don't |
| 15:22 | <@Alberth> | "use" as in play a game with it? |
| 15:22 | <andythenorth> | this is well-laid out nfo https://pastebin.com/raw/HwUHywJi |
| 15:23 | <@Alberth> | see the bottom of the tutorial page for a comparison between NML and NFO |
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| 15:24 | <@Alberth> | I would suggest you select the NML column for future use :) |
| 15:25 | <y2000rtc> | ufff |
| 15:25 | <andythenorth> | Alberth: does the UI have methods to resize windows when viewport changes size? o_O https://bugs.openttd.org/task/3417 |
| 15:26 | <@Alberth> | I think so |
| 15:26 | <@Alberth> | or at least move them back into view |
| 15:26 | <andythenorth> | so valid task? |
| 15:27 | <@Alberth> | not sure, Rb claims it's not |
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| 15:28 | <@Alberth> | maybe the window is not very resizable or so |
| 15:28 | <@Alberth> | don't understand why Rb says that |
| 15:29 | <andythenorth> | he was just adjusting status |
| 15:30 | <@Alberth> | yes, because he doesn't see it as a bug |
| 15:30 | <andythenorth> | industry windows are moved when I resize viewport |
| 15:30 | <@Alberth> | I don't know why |
| 15:30 | <andythenorth> | so the methods exist |
| 15:31 | <andythenorth> | newgrf window neither |
| 15:31 | <@Alberth> | it's just a function that walks through the window-stack :) |
| 15:31 | <@Alberth> | not all windows resize very well |
| 15:32 | <@Alberth> | maybe they stay centered? |
| 15:32 | <andythenorth> | think they do |
| 15:33 | <@Alberth> | if they do, then that technically indeed counts as not a bug |
| 15:33 | <@Alberth> | since they are properly centered |
| 15:33 | <@Alberth> | just not in a useful way :p |
| 15:33 | <andythenorth> | I’ve attached this conversation :P |
| 15:33 | <andythenorth> | there’s nothing else I can do with that |
| 15:33 | <@Alberth> | from UX pov, it counts as bug :p |
| 15:33 | <andythenorth> | can’t close |
| 15:34 | <andythenorth> | can’t fix :P |
| 15:34 | <@Alberth> | not easily, likely |
| 15:34 | <andythenorth> | not convinced that supporting resize-to-smaller is a big thing |
| 15:34 | <andythenorth> | especially at game start |
| 15:35 | <@Alberth> | I sometimes do resize the window while playing, to make room for another window |
| 15:36 | <@Alberth> | but in general, I agree |
| 15:36 | <andythenorth> | has to stay open? |
| 15:36 | <@Alberth> | I wasn't going to fix it, so I don't care either way |
| 15:37 | <y2000rtc> | Thank you guys. Is not really easy to do it. Termite is about metro tracks. I want to have different rails of speed and the same graphics. |
| 15:38 | <frosch123> | y2000rtc: you can also assign speed limits via orders |
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| 15:38 | <@Alberth> | I already run short on time for #6053 with all the things I am doing |
| 15:38 | <@Alberth> | Termite is train tracks, afaik |
| 15:38 | <y2000rtc> | via orders? Please any details? |
| 15:38 | <@Alberth> | maybe it has tram tracks too? |
| 15:39 | <y2000rtc> | I want that only for normal railways. |
| 15:39 | <frosch123> | https://wiki.openttd.org/Timetable <- y2000rtc: see the "change speed limit" button? |
| 15:39 | * | andythenorth checks termite |
| 15:41 | <y2000rtc> | Ok, clear. What I want to do is to make a railway from station to station with different rails of speed. Arround station to go 40 km/h for example, after that 80 km/h and arround depo 20 km/h. |
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| 15:42 | <y2000rtc> | I already have GRF file with that but for these speeds are used different designs of rails and I would like to use the same design. :) |
| 15:44 | <andythenorth> | which grf is it? |
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| 15:55 | <y2000rtc> | It is called NuTracks |
| 15:58 | <Eddi|zuHause> | that's really simple then, you grab the source of nutracks, and remove the parts that define how the rails look |
| 15:58 | <andythenorth> | y2000rtc: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nutracks/repository/entry/src/nutracks.pnml |
| 15:58 | <andythenorth> | actually http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nutracks/repository |
| 15:58 | <andythenorth> | better |
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| 16:09 | <andythenorth> | frosch123: I made it to page 10 of celestar thread :P |
| 16:10 | <frosch123> | impressive :) |
| 16:10 | <frosch123> | how does it compare to fs? |
| 16:10 | <andythenorth> | different |
| 16:11 | * | andythenorth wonders |
| 16:11 | <andythenorth> | this appears to pre-date newgrf industries, cargos, railtypes |
| 16:11 | <andythenorth> | that can’t be right |
| 16:11 | <andythenorth> | 2007 |
| 16:11 | <andythenorth> | I started FIRS in 2008 |
| 16:11 | <frosch123> | it's parallel |
| 16:12 | <frosch123> | industry cargos were implemented in ottd in 2007 |
| 16:12 | <andythenorth> | more wisdom https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=644192#p644192 |
| 16:12 | <andythenorth> | loads of stuff about planes again |
| 16:14 | <frosch123> | i played a plane game once, it was fun, second game was boring |
| 16:14 | <andythenorth> | this https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=656532#p656532 |
| 16:14 | <andythenorth> | is the only idea I’ve seen so far that I want an API for :P |
| 16:15 | <andythenorth> | everything else is either (1) dumb (2) good, but not OpenTTD (3) solved in newgrf |
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| 16:18 | <andythenorth> | frosch123: finally, someone turns up talking sense in the thread :P https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=795479#p795479 |
| 16:20 | <frosch123> | https://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/Secondary_Related_Objects#Secondary_related_features <- added the profit stuff to that page |
| 16:20 | <frosch123> | what, you were part of it? |
| 16:21 | <andythenorth> | apparently |
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| 16:21 | <frosch123> | at least your opinion did not change :) |
| 16:22 | <andythenorth> | I was right all along :P |
| 16:22 | <andythenorth> | I should write some kind of economy spec |
| 16:22 | <frosch123> | "(nfo) can be fund to write" (andy, 2009) |
| 16:23 | <frosch123> | -d |
| 16:23 | <andythenorth> | it was |
| 16:23 | <frosch123> | oi, i forgot about p1sim |
| 16:23 | * | andythenorth should have made a python compiler for nfo |
| 16:23 | <frosch123> | what happened to that? |
| 16:23 | <frosch123> | http://www.p1sim.org/ <- still online |
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| 16:25 | * | andythenorth looks in map bits |
| 16:25 | <frosch123> | hmm, it has a similar statistic as factorio |
| 16:25 | <frosch123> | 100 lines per file on average |
| 16:25 | <frosch123> | that's really weird to me... |
| 16:25 | <andythenorth> | many many small files? |
| 16:25 | <frosch123> | sometimes you have short files, but 100 on average? that means some files are a lot shorter |
| 16:26 | <andythenorth> | our files look very big to me |
| 16:26 | <frosch123> | you need at least 20 lines for #include |
| 16:26 | <andythenorth> | but I only look in the big ones :P |
| 16:26 | <frosch123> | andythenorth: 500-1000 sounds normal to me |
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| 16:26 | <frosch123> | at 4k it tends to get tedious |
| 16:27 | <andythenorth> | I mostly look in industry_cmd.cpp :P |
| 16:27 | <frosch123> | oh... maybe i count header files wrong |
| 16:27 | <andythenorth> | eh so I’ve had half an idea for a long time |
| 16:27 | <frosch123> | headers can be really short without documentation |
| 16:27 | <andythenorth> | I want to keep some kind of ‘economy health’ byte around |
| 16:27 | <andythenorth> | preferably per tile |
| 16:28 | <andythenorth> | accessible to newgrf, settable by gs (but not requiring gs callbacks) |
| 16:28 | <andythenorth> | per tile might suck, might have to be per town |
| 16:29 | <y2000rtc> | andythenorth: Thank you so much. Question due to repository. Is there any way how to download whole folder with source code? And *.pnml, what should be edited and compile to GRF? :( |
| 16:29 | <andythenorth> | y2000rtc: one of these likely includes the full source http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/nutracks/push/LATEST/ |
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| 16:31 | <y2000rtc> | andythenorth: great help, I'm still closer and closer to my goal. :D |
| 16:33 | * | y2000rtc slaps andythenorth around a bit with a large fishbot |
| 16:33 | <andythenorth> | that’s not been said here for a while |
| 16:34 | <y2000rtc> | andythenorth: Ok, I downloaded file NuTrack last version and there is only grf file. What I have to downloaded for to edited and make a grf? |
| 16:35 | <andythenorth> | try http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/nutracks/push/LATEST/nutracks-r252-source.tar.gz |
| 16:36 | <andythenorth> | also http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/nutracks/push/LATEST/nutracks.nml |
| 16:36 | <andythenorth> | you likely won’t have anything on Windows that can run Make |
| 16:37 | <y2000rtc> | andythenorth: Thanks again Andy. It looks much better. Right now I have to find right file for editing and there something change and after that make a new GRF file from that, or? |
| 16:37 | <andythenorth> | there are instructions for getting make on windows http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/home/wiki/Setting_up_a_Windows_compile_environment_using_WSL |
| 16:38 | <andythenorth> | but I would skip that for now |
| 16:38 | <andythenorth> | you should have a folder, like nutracks-r252-source |
| 16:38 | <andythenorth> | put the nutracks.nml file in there |
| 16:39 | <y2000rtc> | ok |
| 16:39 | <andythenorth> | ach, I don’t know how to use nmlc on windows though :P |
| 16:39 | <y2000rtc> | andythenorth: :) Was already putted. |
| 16:40 | <andythenorth> | there must be instructions for using nmlc on windows somewhere |
| 16:40 | <y2000rtc> | nmlc is a software? |
| 16:40 | <andythenorth> | yes |
| 16:41 | <y2000rtc> | Yes, it is SW and I already have there. |
| 16:41 | <y2000rtc> | Is working with some parametres. I used that. |
| 16:41 | <y2000rtc> | It is working over CMD but which parameter must be putted? |
| 16:41 | <y2000rtc> | Maybe there are the same like on a Linux. |
| 16:42 | <andythenorth> | nmlc -c --grf mygrf.grf mygrf.nml |
| 16:42 | <andythenorth> | swap ‘mygrf’ for ‘nutracks’ or so |
| 16:42 | <y2000rtc> | andythenorth: Great. :) |
| 16:42 | <andythenorth> | it might _just_ compile |
| 16:42 | <andythenorth> | if it does you get a grf |
| 16:43 | <andythenorth> | otherwise it will throw some errors somewhere |
| 16:44 | <y2000rtc> | andythenorth: I will do it. One question more. What to change for to use the same design Andy? |
| 16:44 | <andythenorth> | one step at a time :) |
| 16:45 | <y2000rtc> | andythenorth: Yes, but I have to change something before compile, or? |
| 16:45 | <andythenorth> | first see if it compiles at all :) |
| 16:45 | <y2000rtc> | andythenorth: Whole folder must be moved to folder with nmlc? |
| 16:46 | <andythenorth> | not sure on windows |
| 16:46 | <andythenorth> | probably |
| 16:46 | <y2000rtc> | andythenorth: Otherwise how to define path? |
| 16:46 | <y2000rtc> | andythenorth: I will try. |
| 16:49 | <y2000rtc> | andythenorth: result: [Knmlc ERROR: "lang\english.lng", line 2: Undefined command "VERSION" |
| 16:51 | <Eddi|zuHause> | you need to run the makefile properly, then |
| 16:51 | <andythenorth> | ach, it needs some custom tags :( |
| 16:52 | <Eddi|zuHause> | VERSION comes from a file "custom_tags.txt" or so, which the makefile fills with the revision (or some other identifying version detail) |
| 16:52 | <andythenorth> | y2000rtc: open lang/english.lng |
| 16:52 | <andythenorth> | delete {VERSION} |
| 16:52 | <andythenorth> | on line 2 |
| 16:53 | <Eddi|zuHause> | how does that solve anything? |
| 16:53 | <andythenorth> | should get it compiling |
| 16:54 | <Eddi|zuHause> | just install mingw, and you can run make. |
| 16:55 | <y2000rtc> | andythenorth: Yes, working. :) GRf was made |
| 16:55 | <y2000rtc> | andythenorth: ufff |
| 16:57 | <y2000rtc> | People, have you already seen www.mashinky.com? New game created like a new style of TTD. :) Puzzle style of building and after that 3D. Looks great. |
| 16:57 | <andythenorth> | there’s a few out there |
| 16:58 | <andythenorth> | https://twitter.com/VoxelTycoon |
| 16:58 | <andythenorth> | https://twitter.com/colonistsgame |
| 16:59 | <y2000rtc> | andythenorth: Hmm. Interesting. |
| 17:04 | <y2000rtc> | andythenorth: So, now I have to find parameter for choosing design and this one to change to the same everytime. Or? |
| 17:05 | <andythenorth> | you want base set (origina) rails only? |
| 17:05 | <andythenorth> | or Nutracks rails? |
| 17:06 | <y2000rtc> | andythenorth: I want to set original design to all rails in NuTracks. |
| 17:07 | <y2000rtc> | andythenorth: In NuTracks it is the slowest rail. |
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| 17:09 | <andythenorth> | look for graphics {} blocks |
| 17:09 | <andythenorth> | delete everything inside them |
| 17:09 | <andythenorth> | probably works |
| 17:09 | * | andythenorth hasn’t coded any railtypes, but eh |
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| 17:13 | <y2000rtc> | andythenorth: A lot of findings. |
| 17:21 | <y2000rtc> | andythenorth: Just deleting whole blocks? |
| 17:21 | <andythenorth> | everything between graphics {} |
| 17:22 | <andythenorth> | that should restore defaults |
| 17:27 | <y2000rtc> | andythenorth: Done, I'm going to try it. |
| 17:29 | <y2000rtc> | andythenorth: ←[Knmlc ERROR: "src/standard-gauge/RAIL.pnml", line 34: Syntax error, unexpected token "}" Included from: "<stdin>", line 36 |
| 17:29 | <andythenorth> | what’s on line 36? |
| 17:29 | <andythenorth> | https://paste.openttdcoop.org/ |
| 17:30 | <andythenorth> | maybe graphics block can’t be empty, or maybe it’s an extra / missing { or } |
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| 17:33 | <y2000rtc> | andythenorth: underlay: ground_switch_underlay_RAIL; |
| 17:33 | <y2000rtc> | andythenorth: https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pi8wkikvd |
| 17:34 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 17:35 | <andythenorth> | getting late for me to figure that out :P |
| 17:35 | <y2000rtc> | andythenorth: :) |
| 17:35 | <andythenorth> | most people probably going to bed |
| 17:35 | <andythenorth> | try tomorrow? |
| 17:36 | <y2000rtc> | andythenorth: Offcourse. Thank you so much. Tomorrow is great. |
| 17:36 | <andythenorth> | np |
| 17:36 | <andythenorth> | bye |
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| 18:36 | <Wolf01> | 'night |
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| --- | Log | closed Sun Sep 03 00:00:40 2017 |
