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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-09-03

---Logopened Sun Sep 03 00:00:40 2017
01:04-!-Alberth [~alberth@00015f9e.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd
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02:05<andythenorth>o/
02:11<andythenorth>milek7: o/
02:18<andythenorth>oops, tab doesn’t ffw real life, just openttd :P
02:26<@Alberth>o/
02:26<andythenorth>lo Alberth :)
02:27<@Alberth>daylength in RL would be more useful, imho :p
02:27<andythenorth>somewhat
02:27<andythenorth>it can be faked by focussing
02:28<andythenorth>but sometimes external obligations make that hard
02:29<@Alberth>hmm, in my experience, time speeds up when you're focussed :)
02:29<@Alberth>also, tea could be useful now
02:29<andythenorth>needs a bug report
02:30<andythenorth>and a feature request
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02:40<@Alberth>nah, doesn't work
02:41<andythenorth>time for my occasional adventure into industry_cmd.cpp
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03:16<andythenorth>hmm
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03:31<@peter1138>why was i awake until 3am :S
03:32<andythenorth>minecraft
03:32<@peter1138>true
03:32<@peter1138>well, best be off out on the bike
03:32<andythenorth>fair
03:43<andythenorth>:o
03:43<andythenorth>where did all these airports come from?
03:43<andythenorth>there are 8 versions just of small airport, now in trunk
03:47<andythenorth>oh it’s OGFX+ Airports :)
03:49<@Alberth>I wondered already how you managed that :)
03:49<andythenorth>hidden features :P
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03:54<ic111>andythenorth: As you cleaned up the bugtracker now - should I create tickets for the two bigger patches I wrote (timetables, new river generator), or doesn't this matter in fact? After all, I publish new versions in the forum anyway, so such a ticket would probably contain a link to the forum thread...
03:54<andythenorth>ic111: I would discuss here first
03:55<andythenorth>you need to get lucky on a day when a few devs are (1) here (2) in a mood to discuss it
03:55<ic111>Discussing them is a long-term-issue anyway...
03:55<ic111>I don't expect to discuss them in one day...
03:55<andythenorth>at the moment, based on dev interests/priorities, I think there’s a low chance of getting them through :)
03:56<andythenorth>better rivers would be a nice pony IMHO
03:56<andythenorth>but eh
03:58<andythenorth>ic111: is better rivers in JGR’s patch pack?
03:58<ic111>AFAIK no
03:59<ic111>Integrating them into a patch pack would probably be possible without too much work
04:00<ic111>... as (beside a refactoring of the mapgen GUI), the patch queue adds new code, but doesn't touch existing code
04:00<andythenorth>ic111: where’s the repo for it? o_O
04:00*andythenorth might try and compile
04:01<ic111>wait a moment...
04:04<ic111>Here is the latest patch queue, which applied against trunk in April: https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=71970&start=280#p1185787
04:04<ic111>... and here is somewhat older windows binary: https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=71970&start=260#p1160466
04:04<andythenorth>no github? o_O
04:04<andythenorth>I think official policy for patches is still mercurial patch queues :P
04:04<ic111>yes, I was told so
04:05<ic111>I have read that you don't like them
04:05<andythenorth>[shrug]
04:06<andythenorth>the github route makes more sense to me, patches are isolated and lost imho
04:06<andythenorth>but I’m not a dev or reviewer
04:07<ic111>For me, given that I am somewhat familiar with the hg way now, it's just a question of how much time do I invest in organizing source code (learn a new kind of version control system), and how much time do I invest into the code itself.
04:07<andythenorth>fair
04:08<andythenorth>so much stuff in JGR Patchpack
04:08<andythenorth>not sure where to begin testing :P
04:08<andythenorth>ship collision avoidance doesn’t work though
04:09<ic111>never heard of that
04:09<andythenorth>it’s a patch
04:10<ic111>But if you avoid ship collisions - doesn't this trigger the need for extended path finding?
04:10<ic111>If two ships meet in a narrow part of the ocean, and can't pass - what happens?
04:11<andythenorth>dunno
04:11<andythenorth>waste of time IMHO
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04:19<@Alberth>avoid is a lot softer than remove/eliminate
04:19<@Alberth>ie it doesn't promise collisions wont happen
04:20<andythenorth>I tested it, and ships still sail along 100% over-lapping
04:20<andythenorth>so it ain’t adding much :P
04:21<andythenorth>Alberth: I fixed a FS :o
04:21<andythenorth>https://bugs.openttd.org/task/3958#comment14741
04:22<@Alberth>perhaps if they meet in opposite direction?
04:25<@Alberth>moving speed to top-left corner in the display?
04:25<@Alberth>centered on engine is also quite useless, as 1/2 the display is not used
04:27<andythenorth>dunno what my fix does on RTL languages
04:27<andythenorth>but I am often having to make vehicle windows wider to see the speed
04:28<andythenorth>yak-shaving
04:28<@Alberth>you know you posted an image only, right?
04:28<andythenorth>yup
04:28<andythenorth>if it’s viable I’ll make a patch, otherwise eh
04:28<andythenorth>changing all the lang strings is a lot of faff :P
04:29<@Alberth>sed is the magic word there :p
04:29<andythenorth>it just shuffles the parameters around
04:29*andythenorth was amused to be able to actually fix something
04:29<@Alberth>It feels like it needs a word in front
04:30<andythenorth>OpenTTD has the same Z-shaped learning curve that Zope community ran into
04:30<andythenorth>small small things are very easy
04:30<andythenorth>creating illusion of rapid progress
04:30<andythenorth>everything else is nearly impossible
04:30<andythenorth>so going backwards
04:31<@Alberth>all the in-between stuff mostly works
04:31<@Alberth>unless you take out whole parts
04:31<@Alberth>+have to
04:34<andythenorth>this zoning patch is in JGR https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=888076#p888076
04:34<andythenorth>at first test, it seems really useful
04:35<andythenorth>intrerface is….odd
04:38<@Alberth>catchment area is quite complicated
04:38<andythenorth>yup
04:39<andythenorth>it’s somewhere on a frosch to-do list
04:39<@Alberth>biggest problem iirc is that things are not always the same
04:39<andythenorth>I was using it for local authority display only
04:39<andythenorth>seems straightforward there
04:39<andythenorth>problem is, people will want a generic solution for All The Things :|
04:40<andythenorth>perfect is the enemy of good, again
04:44<@Alberth>just city authority could work
04:44<@Alberth>I never need that information though
04:45<andythenorth>I need it when I’m planting trees to placate LA
04:45<andythenorth>or in silicon valley, where industries have to be built in specific town
04:49<andythenorth>be better as a toggle on transparency palette
04:49<andythenorth>but eh
04:49<andythenorth>newgrf tile overlays :P
05:00<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: what’s wrong with you ‘close adjacent level crossings’ patch?
05:01<andythenorth>it’s in JGR PP, seems to work so far
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05:01<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: mostly converting old savegames safely (i.e. a setting which is enabled for new games and disabled for old games by default, and a serious warning to change that mid-game)
05:02<andythenorth>no setting, just migrate it to be standard behaviour?
05:02<Eddi|zuHause>no. vehicles will crash if you just enable it
05:14<andythenorth>gosh
05:14<andythenorth>polyline building tool is super annoying
05:20<andythenorth>as is build-and-refit
05:20<@Alberth>depends on what you're used to?
05:22<@Alberth>not that it matter much, as you mostly clone anyway
05:22<andythenorth>build-and-refit adds an extra toggle button to buy menu
05:22<andythenorth>which makes very cluttered and confusing
05:22<andythenorth>either you want that feature, or you don’t
05:22<andythenorth>no need to toggle it per purchase :P
05:23<andythenorth>I was hoping for more gold in this patchpack TBH
05:23<andythenorth>all it’s doing is re-inforcing my prejudice that Improving the Game is Now Hard
05:24*andythenorth does not mean that to sound grumpy
05:25<Eddi|zuHause>no worry, it totally does :p
05:25<andythenorth>this patchpack is awesome :)
05:25<andythenorth>it shows that over the years, basic OpenTTD has become really good :)
05:26<andythenorth>and that there are some nice ideas for patches, but actually everything is already fine :)
05:26<andythenorth>better?
05:27<@Alberth>it shows that changes need to be considered more thoroughly, perhaps
05:28<andythenorth>so far, the game seems about twice as dense in JGR patchpack
05:28<andythenorth>unassailable learning curve
05:29<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: another tricky part about the adjacent level crossing patch is that if you want to add diagonal crossings on top of it, the adjacent crossings must be enabled
05:29<andythenorth>complex eh
05:32<andythenorth>is there a console command to show active blitter?
05:32<andythenorth>I have looked in wiki and list_cmds
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05:43<ic111>As I had a look / fixed the issues LordAro told me about the timetables patch two weeks ago yesterday - what´s your opinion about the desired (minimum) size of the timetable window?
05:43<ic111>See here https://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=199556 for a screenshot
05:44<ic111>My problem is, that in fact the first line (currently) needs the width I distributed.
05:44<ic111>Of course I could gain some space by shorter labels, but not much
05:44<LordAro>a screenshot in the default font would perhaps be more useful
05:44<LordAro>but, can it not be split into 2 lines?
05:45<LordAro>it looks like at least "Timetable length.." could be on the next line
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05:45<andythenorth>UI design is hard :)
05:45<@Alberth>"Vehicle" is totally useless, as is "Timetable" on that white line
05:45<andythenorth>Celestar1 so where is your legendary economy PDF then? o_O
05:45<ic111>Hm, the second line contains an (optional) name of the timetable which I use for arrival / departure boards
05:46<ic111>I could shorten Timetable Length to Length
05:46<andythenorth>is it an option to light the current timetable implementation on fire, and start again?
05:46<ic111>I made it that verbose, since at this point, you must distinguish the property of the timetable and the property of the vehicle
05:46<andythenorth>all of it
05:47<ic111>I.e., the timetable has one global start, and then you have n vehicles with different offsets
05:47<ic111>Thus, if a vehicle has offset two months, then the start of the timetable might be 1st January, but the start of the vehicles timetable is 1st March
05:47<andythenorth>LordAro: know anything about the blitters? o_O
05:48<ic111>So, yes, I might shorten the labels, but I feared that then people won´t realize how it works
05:48<LordAro>andythenorth: precious little
05:49<LordAro>but,
05:49<andythenorth>this patch fails in way too many places for me to have a clue
05:49<LordAro>@topic get 3
05:49<@DorpsGek>LordAro: Don't ask to ask, just ask
05:49<andythenorth>https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6469
05:49<LordAro>:p
05:49<andythenorth>maybe I could dig it out of JGR’s github
05:49<@Alberth>offset can't be related to timetable, can it?
05:49<ic111>I don´t understand your question
05:50<ic111>The OrderList has a start date
05:50<@Alberth>you are explicit over timetable vs vehicle
05:50<andythenorth>Alberth: do you ever use timetables? o_O
05:50<ic111>A vehicle has an offset against that OrderList
05:50<@Alberth>but I don't see how a timetable has an offset
05:50<ic111>Start date plus offset result in the vehicle-local start date
05:50<@Alberth>so "offset" has only one meaning then
05:51<ic111>Yes.
05:51<@Alberth>and it doesn't need "vehicle" in front
05:51<ic111>It´s a property of the vehicle
05:51<ic111>In this way, you are right, I can remove it
05:51*andythenorth reads the wiki about timetables
05:51<ic111>Maybe I should add a reasonable tooltip with the explanation?
05:52<@Alberth>do you have vehicle start?
05:52<@Alberth>hmm, likely you do
05:53<LordAro>andythenorth: i'll have a look
05:53<ic111>The arrivals the vehicle presents you below are (should be) in the range [vehicle_start, vehicle_start + timetable_length[
05:53<andythenorth>I can’t find a branch in https://github.com/JGRennison/OpenTTD-patches
05:53<LordAro>https://i.imgur.com/y9b7czQ.png website recreation is making progress
05:53<andythenorth>was hoping for a clean branch, JGR’s patch is probably just old
05:53<andythenorth>his PP is close to recent trunk
05:53<@Alberth>maybe rename one f the "start" to "begin" or something else
05:54<@Alberth>andy, hardly using time tables, they are not very resistent against breakdowns
05:54<andythenorth>I am unable to comment on any of the timetable stuff
05:55<andythenorth>I keep trying to learn what the goal is, but it doesn’t stick
05:55<@Alberth>"almost useless" is a good summary :p
05:55<andythenorth>I have tried following the instructions, but either the instructions are broken
05:55<andythenorth>or OpenTTD is broken
05:55<andythenorth>or I did it wrong
05:55<@Alberth>I think you covered all the options :p
05:56<andythenorth>I fail to understand how it adjusts the vehicle speeds
05:56<andythenorth>that seems to violate the idea that newgrf controls vehicle speed
05:56<@Alberth>it involves a few tricks to get it running
05:56<@Alberth>it doesn't change speed
05:56<andythenorth>wiki says it does
05:56<ic111>Regarding breakdowns: As in real world, I always add some extra time for unexpected events, i.e. if a vehicle in optimal circumstances needs 10 days for a distance, I assign 11 or 12.
05:56<@Alberth>it adds waiting time in stations
05:56<andythenorth>"as well as specifying a maximum speed at which the vehicle should travel along that section of its journey"
05:57<ic111>plus a reasonable waiting time at the end of the line, before the vehicle starts into the opposite direciton
05:57<andythenorth>“Each vehicle speeds up or slows down depending on whether it is late or early according to the timetable."
05:57<andythenorth>idea seems flawed to me
05:57<andythenorth>slowing down the vehicle just makes any following vehicles late
05:57<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: timetables can already limit speed
05:57<ic111>is (in my personal playing style) part of the fun, designing things a way where they are robust, even if some breakdowns happen
05:58<andythenorth>anyway, there’s no mileage in a hot air argument about timetables :)
05:58<andythenorth>we’re stuck with them :)
05:58<andythenorth>maybe ic111 is going to fix them
05:58*andythenorth wonders about multiplayer coop game using JGR patchpack
05:59<ic111>But, regarding layout, then I try to shorten some labels, decrease width of the dialog somewhat, but don´ t touch the core layout
05:59<LordAro>andythenorth: largely failing because of http://git.openttd.org/?p=trunk.git;a=commit;h=206a0838e995fe74aae3867f93feb0aaf2acb219
06:00<andythenorth>can’t tell if JGR has fixed that
06:00<LordAro>well i'd imagine so :p
06:01<LordAro>let me see if i can find a commit in his branch
06:01<andythenorth>he’s at 27893, so looks like it should be fixed
06:04<LordAro>nope, doesn't look like it's in his PP
06:05<LordAro>looks like frosch's commit did quite a bit of what JJ's patch did though, let me see if i can update
06:07<_dp_>o/
06:07<_dp_>polyrail is very nice, vastly increases building speed :p
06:07<_dp_>only starcraft maniacs like solo don't use it xD
06:09<andythenorth>adds yet another button to the construction toolbar
06:10<andythenorth>makes me twitch
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06:10<_dp_>andythenorth, just remove other 5 :p
06:10<andythenorth>detects some slopes, and fails on others
06:10<andythenorth>so you release mouse button to build, but it just fails
06:11<_dp_>it's same as regular autorail on slopes
06:11<andythenorth>in fact it just doesn’t work
06:11<andythenorth>I drag straight and diagonal sections, and it only builds one of them
06:11<andythenorth>total shit
06:11<andythenorth>no point being nice about it, it’s just broken
06:12<_dp_>andythenorth, a lot of people happily use it :p
06:12<_dp_>bulding two segments doesn't quite fit openttd network commands
06:13<_dp_>so it always builds only one
06:13<_dp_>it's basically an autorail that remembers last point, nothing more
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06:13<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds like a terrible design
06:13<Wolf01>o/
06:13<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: it’s complete crap
06:14<_dp_>it may not be the best design possible but it's still much better than autorail :p
06:14<andythenorth>worth you getting JGR’s patchpack to test it
06:14<andythenorth>I hate UIs that lie to people
06:14<@Alberth>o/ W
06:15<andythenorth>Wolf01: o/
06:15<andythenorth>your measure tools are in JGR’s pack Wolf01 :)
06:15<andythenorth>what are they for?
06:15<Wolf01>Measure distances?
06:15<andythenorth>what’s wrong with counting tiles with my fingers?
06:16<andythenorth>like I have to when testing industry placement rules
06:16<Wolf01>Distance and height difference between starting point and end point
06:16<_dp_>andythenorth, I'll call you next time I'll need to find two towns on 230 tiles distance :p
06:16<andythenorth>Wolf01 should be on the land-area information global button
06:16<andythenorth>not landscape toolbar
06:16<Wolf01>Did he integrate them with all other drag&drop tools?
06:16<andythenorth>try it :)
06:16<andythenorth>JGR patchpack clean compiles for me
06:17<andythenorth>I think for any current discussion of features, JGR patch-pack is required viewing
06:17<Wolf01>I was planning to automatically get distance and height difference when d&d
06:17<andythenorth>https://github.com/JGRennison/OpenTTD-patches
06:18<Wolf01>Maybe even the cost instead of using shift
06:18<andythenorth>https://github.com/JGRennison/OpenTTD-patches/tree/measurement_tool
06:18<Wolf01>Fuck shift
06:19<andythenorth>cost of what?
06:19<andythenorth>oh as a tooltip for autorail etc?
06:19<Wolf01>Yes
06:19<andythenorth>maybe
06:19<Wolf01>I don't have the shift on my tablet
06:19<Wolf01>I don't even have the ctrl
06:20<andythenorth>measure tool would be useful for newgrf dev
06:20<Wolf01>But I bound that to a gesture which enables and disables it
06:20<andythenorth>dunno if you’ll find anyone to commit it though :P
06:20<andythenorth>it’s quite a niche thing
06:21<_dp_>btw in citymania client land info tool does the measurement when d&d
06:21<andythenorth>is it good?
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06:21<andythenorth>I wondered about doing that
06:21<_dp_>works fine for me
06:22<andythenorth>does it also tell you the properties of every tile in the dragged region?
06:22<_dp_>andythenorth, no, it only tells properties on one tile click, and d&d does measurement
06:22<andythenorth>odd heuristic
06:22<nahkiss>Hey, I'm running a dedicated server and have hard time figuring out how to start a new game with new generated map. What I'm missing here?
06:22<_dp_>may not be a very good interface choice but saves hotkeys xD
06:23<andythenorth>hotkeys are evil
06:23<andythenorth>so are buttons and toggles
06:23<andythenorth>and mag
06:23<andythenorth>magic *
06:24<Wolf01>nahkiss: open the console and type "newgame"
06:24<Wolf01>Maybe with rcon
06:24<nahkiss>Wolf01: yeah tried that (with rcon) and I get the same map but fresh game
06:24<nahkiss>Like, cities and stuff change place but there's 2 lakes on the exact same spot, etc.
06:24<Wolf01>That should be the "restart" behaviour
06:25<andythenorth>it’s the game settings crap
06:25<nahkiss>Some openttd.cfg option I need to change?
06:25<_dp_>andythenorth, oh, I forgot, landinfo in cmclient works on hovering
06:25<Wolf01>nahkiss: try newgame [somerandomnumber]
06:25<_dp_>andythenorth, so when you hover it's land info and click-and-drag its measurement
06:25<LordAro>andythenorth: hmm. i do believe that JJ's patch supersedes r27796
06:25<LordAro>if i'm reading this correctly
06:26<nahkiss>Wolf01: nope, still the same landscape
06:26<andythenorth>hover is evil on touch :P
06:26<_dp_>andythenorth, openttd is evil on touch :p
06:26<andythenorth>:)
06:26<andythenorth>LordAro: can we swap out one for the other? Paste instead of patch? :P
06:26<Wolf01>nahkiss: try with -1
06:27<Wolf01>Or with 4294967295
06:27<nahkiss>hold on, newgame [randomnumber] didn't actually change the seed, checked with "getseed"
06:27<nahkiss>I guess this has to be manually edited on the openttd.cfg
06:28<Wolf01>nahkiss: No, I read the code and it's the evilest thing I've ever read
06:29<LordAro>andythenorth: hehe, not quite
06:29<Wolf01>If using "newgame" doesn't work in multiplayer, then it's broken in more parts than I thought
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06:31<_dp_>citymania server patch has this line somewhere in it: _settings_newgame.game_creation.generation_seed = GENERATE_NEW_SEED;
06:32<_dp_>coz can't be bothered with this stupid shit :p
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06:34<Wolf01>Yeah, I changed that too in my tries, mainly because it's a waste to set it as random seed and then check again if it's GENERATE_NEW_SEED to set it as random
06:34<Wolf01>BTW, rcon newgame works for me, 1.7.1
06:34<Wolf01>nahkiss: which version you are using?
06:35<nahkiss>1.7.1
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06:40<LordAro>andythenorth: https://i.imgur.com/CIDVpyQ.jpg well that didn't work
06:40<LordAro>let me try something else
06:41<Wolf01>Lolwhat?
06:43<andythenorth>looks good
06:44<LordAro>yeah, that's better
06:44<LordAro>reverted previous patch, JJ's patch applies cleanly(ish)
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06:45<LordAro>let me tidy the diff up, then i'll submit to FS
06:46<andythenorth>:)
06:47<Wolf01>nahkiss: if you are using rcon, did you set the right password? It fails silently if not, also rcon passwf "newgame [seed]" <- quotes are required
06:47<Wolf01>Also, lunch
06:48<nahkiss>ah, missing quotes I guess
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07:18<andythenorth>wtf
07:18<andythenorth>stations on bridges over stations
07:18<andythenorth>imagine the newgrf drawing headache with that :P
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07:27*andythenorth found this https://wiki.openttd.org/Requested_features#Environment
07:27<andythenorth>even though it’s pointless
07:27<andythenorth>it’s quite fun updating it to be accurate
07:31<andythenorth>ha ha ha https://wiki.openttd.org/Roadmap
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07:48<FLHerne>andythenorth: But how else can we make a realistic model of Tamworth?
07:48<ic111>Regarding https://wiki.openttd.org/Requested_features#Environment, I just had a look into some of the threads, and to be honest, for some of them the thread doesn´t make clear why they hit "Rejected" state. E.g. this https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=20211&start=140#p907839 is one of the last comments regarding custom bridge heads - it reads like a usual review comment, at least at the end of the thread I don´t see re
07:48<ic111>(hope this is no double post, had some connection problems)
07:49<andythenorth>I have labelled them rejected, because they’ve been discussed here N times
07:49<andythenorth>and they won’t make it
07:50<ic111>Now I am curious - for this particular one, do we talk about serious technical problems, why it´s hard to impossible to implement, or about some kind of "we don´t like it"
07:50<andythenorth>that depends which dev you get the opinion of
07:50<andythenorth>broadly, not interesting to anyone
07:51<ic111>At first glance, if someone manages to implement that in a proper way, I personally would say, why not have the additional rail connections?
07:51<andythenorth>this might help me, I need to try and write some words for the wiki
07:52<andythenorth>1. the default expectation for all patches is ‘Rejected’, but that’s not made explicit because somehow it’s thought to be bad
07:52<andythenorth>2. rational technical/gameplay/codestyle reasons are often sought to justify rejection, this is the wrong approach
07:52<andythenorth>the reasons should be found instead for inclusion
07:53<andythenorth>finally, the major thing that gets something included is ‘Dev was interested and no other devs blocked them'
07:53<andythenorth>so the primary criteria for successful patch is ‘dev was interested'
07:53<ic111>This is clear
07:54<andythenorth>I don’t think it’s widely clear :)
07:54<FLHerne>andythenorth: The problem is that there are almost no active devs
07:54<andythenorth>the mental model seems to be of some pipeline / rational process where all patches will proceed if they are technically good enough
07:54<andythenorth>that is wrong
07:54<andythenorth>FLHerne: no that’s a factor, not The Problem
07:55<andythenorth>if you read forums back to 2007/2008 there were a shitload of active devs
07:55<FLHerne>Which turns almost all external commits into "rejected" by default, which prevents anyone new from becoming active
07:55<andythenorth>but still same complaints about non-moving patches
07:55<ic111>But, at this point, a "Rejected" state reads like a very fundamental decision, for "technical / gameplay / codestyle" reaons, as you describe in (2)
07:55<FLHerne>Ok, a problem is that there are no active devs
07:56<FLHerne>So that everything gets "rejected" simply because no-one's really looking at them
07:56<FLHerne>When there were active devs who still weren't looking at them, it was a different problem :P
07:56<ic111>For me, this is the message "feature is not worth for investing time into it, if you want to contribute something to the game"
07:57<FLHerne>And yes, 'rejected' is clearly the wrong word for the concept you describe
07:57<ic111>But IMHO, you cannot know how people react to a particular patch, before you implemented it.
07:57<andythenorth>fair
07:58<andythenorth>I am curious about the wiki
07:58<andythenorth>is it useful?
07:58<andythenorth>or should it be burnt to the ground?
07:58<ic111>I use it quite seldom, to be honest
07:59<FLHerne>There are definitely useful things on the wiki
07:59<FLHerne>Like the categorised lists of newgrfs, and the tutorial
08:00<ic111>Regarding the "Requested features" page, IMHO it can be a very useful summary about development state
08:00<FLHerne>Last I saw, the settings documentation was mostly useless though (pre-reorganisation)
08:01<andythenorth>LordAro: blitter works for me, thanks
08:02<andythenorth>I think unhelpful stuff is worse than nothing
08:02<andythenorth>https://wiki.openttd.org/Requested_features#How_to_request_a_feature
08:02<andythenorth>^ that’s basically all wrong
08:02<andythenorth>https://wiki.openttd.org/Rejected_features overlaps with the list of requested features
08:03<andythenorth>this seems to duplicate again https://wiki.openttd.org/List_of_patches
08:03<andythenorth>to what end I don’t know
08:03<andythenorth>this is 50% perfect and 50% absolute rubbish https://wiki.openttd.org/FAQ_development
08:04<eekee>(12:18:40) andythenorth: stations on bridges over stations
08:04<eekee>yesss! gimme!!!
08:04<LordAro>andythenorth: :)
08:05<andythenorth>eekee: why?
08:06<eekee>andythenorth: because i make these insane networks with everything almost on top of everything else anyway XD
08:09<ic111>Stations on bridges IMHO is a candidate, where I personally would probably like it in terms of gameplay, but where (given knowledge about code) I trust devs if they say that implementing this is not feasable.
08:09<andythenorth>I give it a 0% chance
08:09<ic111>I too.
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08:12<eekee>yeah i can believe it's not implementable
08:12<eekee>i just had a thought: a tunnel-station, which is both a tunnel and a station platform
08:13<eekee>that would solve a lot of my wants
08:13<andythenorth>tunnels don’t really exist
08:13<andythenorth>the challenge for bridges and tunnels is that the game stores data in tiles
08:13<eekee>i know, had fun at the edge of a map once lol
08:13<andythenorth>tunnels don’t have any tiles
08:13<andythenorth>trains can’t pathfind to a station that has no tiles, for example
08:14<eekee>what about the tunnel ends?
08:14<FLHerne>There was a proposal to allocate extra strips of tiles to bridges and tunnels
08:14<andythenorth>off-map?
08:14<FLHerne>Which would be its own kind of problem
08:14<FLHerne>Yes
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08:15<FLHerne>I guess you'd need to keep them in a quadtree or something, and then if you see a 'bridge above' bit you'd search for the relevant one
08:15<FLHerne>Instead of searching on-map for the bridgehead
08:16<eekee>i'm trying to imagine the simplest thing. train navigates to end of tunnel-station. for cachement, tunnel-station must be linked with ctrl-click to a regular station
08:16<andythenorth>I wish an architectural decision had been made for ‘denser map’ instead of ‘bigger map'
08:16<andythenorth>a 256x256 game with multiple levels is a better playing experience than 2048x2048 mono-level imho
08:17<andythenorth>but I think the UI and newgrf side would be crappy
08:17<eekee>i couldn't decide between them
08:17<eekee>oh yeah
08:17<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: these two are completely unrelated
08:17<andythenorth>I wondered if somone would point that out :P
08:17<eekee>hehehe
08:18<andythenorth>rheotirical dark pattern of connecting two unrelated issues
08:18<andythenorth>rhetorical *
08:18<andythenorth>currently widely deployed in political speech
08:19<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: you think they’re orthogonal, at the implementation level?
08:19<LordAro>andythenorth: i never much enjoyed the multiple levels of locomotion
08:19<Eddi|zuHause>"political speech" reminds me of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQ9IOEpGlr4
08:19<LordAro>it got messy quickly
08:19<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: architecturally, yes. (assuming an ideal system with no memory limits)
08:19<eekee>widely deployed in religious speech too :(
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08:21<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I think as a design choice, that’s where the focus went
08:21<eekee>anyway, i quite like my tunnel-station idea, but i'm too busy playing to look into coding it :)
08:21<andythenorth>and one design choice often excludes another, even if only by available time to deal with complexity
08:21<eekee>i have to say i do like big maps too
08:22<andythenorth>LordAro: multiple levels probably sucks eh? :)
08:22<andythenorth>I just like the idea of a train dropping 10 levels in a tunnel
08:22<andythenorth>also…lifts!
08:22<andythenorth>could put coal mines actually underground :P
08:22<Eddi|zuHause>dropping/raising levels in tunnels is frequently done in mountains
08:23<eekee>oooh :D
08:23<Eddi|zuHause>(usually in loops)
08:23<andythenorth>spiral tunnel inside mountain
08:25<andythenorth>coal ‘mines’ would be coal seams, underground
08:25<andythenorth>build little networks of trains, moving the coal from multiple seams to a lift
08:25<Eddi|zuHause><eekee> what about the tunnel ends? <-- currently, tunnel ends are the only thing that physically exists on the map. hackalittlebit's "signals in tunnels and on bridges" patch uses those to store the data, but that is widely considered a terrible and inflexible approach
08:25<andythenorth>run supplies back in
08:26<andythenorth>“MineOpenTTD"
08:26<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that is basically a case of "this is not Sim<whatever>"
08:27<eekee>yeah i was thinking it's a different game, but then so are some grfs anyway
08:27<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: still trains though eh?
08:27<andythenorth>all I’ve done is added more Z-layers
08:28<eekee>Eddi|zuHause: i'm thinking it's so small it doesn't need to be flexible
08:28<andythenorth>could just have the map twice :P
08:28<eekee>can't spiral with only two layers?
08:28<andythenorth>rather than moving vertically through layers, scroll to another map which is the same x,y but another z
08:28<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: z-layers are fine, it's the "model stuff that happens within one industry" part that doesn't quite fit
08:28<andythenorth>well that would be a newgrf choice
08:29<Eddi|zuHause>unless you can fit that into a NewGRF economy with no new NewGRF features
08:29<andythenorth>OpenTTD doesn’t have to do a thing for that
08:29<andythenorth>it’s just FIRS, but moved underground ;)
08:29<Eddi|zuHause>also, vertical lifts would be a new transport type
08:29<andythenorth>variant on pipelines
08:29<andythenorth>but bi-directional
08:30<andythenorth>are the cages balanced, like a funicular?
08:30<Eddi|zuHause>thing is, they're not at all like pipes
08:30<andythenorth>yeah, pipes are continuous flow at a rate
08:30<andythenorth>this is discrete packets for the full route, at intervals
08:30<andythenorth>more like a train tbh
08:31<Eddi|zuHause>there are probably types that are funicular-like, and others where there's just a counter-weight
08:31<andythenorth>well discussing this is more fun than fixing the wiki :)
08:31<Eddi|zuHause>also: ship lifts
08:31<Eddi|zuHause>also: vehicles in vehicles
08:32<andythenorth>mornington crescent
08:32<andythenorth>once vehicles can go in vehicles, then it regresses infinitely no?
08:32<eekee>you could make a limit of the weight
08:33<Wolf01>https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aVMvVgK_460sv.mp4 I need this
08:33<eekee>btw firs is addictive :D
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08:35<andythenorth>eekee: good :)
08:35<andythenorth>Wolf01: appealing
08:35<eekee>^.^
08:38<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: if you make a vehicle that carries all vehicles, does the vehicle carry itself?
08:39<andythenorth>mayor of mayortown
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08:40<andythenorth>quak
08:44<Wolf01>Quak
08:47<frosch123>hoi
08:47<LordAro>o/
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09:04<andythenorth>_dp_: how can I test this? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6610
09:06<@DorpsGek>Commit by michi_cc :: r27912 trunk/src/pathfinder/npf/npf.cpp (2017-09-03 15:06:29 +0200 )
09:06<@DorpsGek>-Fix (r13948): [NPF] Reserved track bits were not accounted for when trying to find any safe position.
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09:08<andythenorth>also _dp_ what the hell is this :D https://citymania.org/tools/townsim/layouts/10
09:09<ST2>cmon andythenorth, can't a player a very active nervous system build a town road layout?
09:09<ST2>xD
09:11<andythenorth>ST2: you know what the patch does? o_O
09:11<ST2>I think that's only a simulator
09:13<frosch123>andythenorth: it maximised town growth speed
09:13<andythenorth>I can see houses built in corners
09:14<andythenorth>is that it?
09:14*andythenorth wonders whether multiple road layouts need testing etc
09:14<andythenorth>‘how to test’ would be useful on patches
09:14<frosch123>unlikely :p
09:14<frosch123>for review you need to understand the code anyway
09:17<_dp_>andythenorth, yes, it only places houses in corners :p
09:17<_dp_>doesn't directly affect growth speed or anything else
09:18<_dp_>andythenorth, and that layout is just an example of what an effective layout can look like with that patch
09:19<_dp_>doubt anyone will seriously build it though
09:19<andythenorth>the simulator thing is cool
09:19<andythenorth>ok I’m getting houses in corners
09:19<andythenorth>that’s my repro
09:20<andythenorth>_dp_: how is GS building houses, per https://wiki.citymania.org/index.php/Advanced_town_growth
09:21<_dp_>andythenorth, most of testing for that patch comes from checking that it rly doesn't change anything else
09:21<andythenorth>or rather, does GS work there
09:21<andythenorth>I am curious about interaction of GS, newgrf, existing town mechanics
09:22<_dp_>andythenorth, GS usually just controls growth speed, house placing is same with GS or without, and that page describes placing
09:22<andythenorth>ok, that sounds as I’d hoped
09:22<andythenorth>this confused me “GameScript house building command does up to 25 tries for every house”
09:23<_dp_>andythenorth, there is a gs method for instant house construction that works slightly different but it's rarely used
09:24<_dp_>and, yeah, that method basically just calls normal build procedure 25 times (or till success)
09:24<andythenorth>seems better to delegate to town growth mechanism, but eh, I haven’t tried
09:24<andythenorth>(vs. instant)
09:24*andythenorth hasn’t written any town GS
09:24<andythenorth>trying to learn how it works, without writing one :P
09:27<Wolf01>https://it.slashdot.org/story/17/09/02/0213206/will-millennials-be-forced-out-of-tech-jobs-when-they-turn-40 I don't know if I should take this seriously and just go on agriculture or what
09:27<andythenorth>sounds like click-bait
09:28<andythenorth>the problem isn’t age, it’s mindset
09:29<andythenorth>people get trapped by outdated skills because they don’t want, or aren’t supported, to learn new ones
09:29<Wolf01>Tell that to my govern
09:29<frosch123>yep, i have seen people older than 50 who can learn new stuff, and i have seen people at age 25 unwilling to learn new stuff
09:31<andythenorth>I am 39
09:31<_dp_>andythenorth, btw, did you notice benchmarking thing in townsim?
09:31<andythenorth>and I learnt to patch! https://bugs.openttd.org/task/3958#comment14741
09:31<andythenorth>frosch123: simple fix in the screenshot, I could finish the patch...
09:31<andythenorth>_dp_: no, what is it?
09:32<_dp_>andythenorth, hit b key, it grows many towns and shows neat charts :)
09:32<_dp_>like population distribution
09:32<frosch123>andythenorth: that looks way easier than my approach: http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/whatsdifferent.png
09:33<andythenorth>has someone reimplemented the OpenTTD algorithm in JS or so _dp_ ?
09:33<frosch123>(screenshot from 2010)
09:33<_dp_>andythenorth, yep, someone was me xD
09:33<andythenorth>frosch123: I am used to finding quick fixes to web layout problems :P
09:33<andythenorth>especially now we have responsive layouts
09:33*andythenorth plots javascript-in-openttd
09:34<andythenorth>seriously, we could bundle node
09:34<_dp_>for what?
09:34<frosch123>funny, my boss' boss thinks the same at work :p
09:34<andythenorth>_dp_: for logic-as-content
09:35<_dp_>andythenorth, there is squirrel already, it seems to be even better fit
09:35<andythenorth>but node is for inexperienced programmers!
09:35<andythenorth>it’s right there in the readme somewhere
09:35<andythenorth>squirrel is nuts :P
09:35<_dp_>it seems for experienced programmers even squirrel isn't fast enough :p
09:36<frosch123>i guess in ottd the bottleneck is the command execution
09:36<andythenorth>oh
09:37<andythenorth>I probably have to handle config setting in my patch? “vehicle_speed = true” is in openttd.cfg
09:37<andythenorth>or is that old cruft
09:37<_dp_>frosch123, which commands, network? those seem to be fast enough
09:37<frosch123>andythenorth: would anyone notice if it was removed? :p
09:38<frosch123>_dp_: iirc a script can at most run one command per network frame
09:38<andythenorth>breaks savegames?
09:38<andythenorth>frosch123: I don’t know tbh :(
09:38<frosch123>so scripts which want to control the whole map are doomed at some point
09:38<andythenorth>I would like to know more about the settings + savegame compatibility
09:38<_dp_>frosch123, yeah, but that's just shitty gs implementation
09:38<_dp_>frosch123, our servers run multiple commands without any issues
09:38<frosch123>andythenorth: check settings.ini, if it has SDG_NOT_IN_SAVE or something, you can remove it
09:40<andythenorth>SLF_NOT_IN_SAVE ?
09:41<frosch123>probably
09:42<andythenorth>not found
09:42<andythenorth>also I deleted openttd.cfg, started the game, quit
09:42<andythenorth>vehicle_speed is not written
09:42<andythenorth>now I just need sed to fix all the lang strings :P
09:42<frosch123>well, so someone removed it before :)
09:42<andythenorth>good choice
09:43<frosch123>andythenorth: don't post a patch with the modifies then :p
09:43<frosch123>it's easier to run sed locally
09:43<andythenorth>not ‘easier’ for me :P
09:43<_dp_>hm, now that I think of it I seem to remember that 1 frame delay being there for some very silly reason
09:43<andythenorth>my favourite sed is remote
09:43<andythenorth>by someone else
09:44<frosch123>maybe submit a git feature request: allow commits to be defined as sed/awk/python script for easy merging of generated changes :)
09:44<andythenorth>hmm
09:45<frosch123>_dp_: it's needed if the script wants to know about success immediately, otherwise you need some asynchronous script methods, bundles commands or no success response
09:46<frosch123>andythenorth: see, maybe you can learn about new reject reasons that way
09:46<_dp_>frosch123, I know, and there is no "if" it always thinks script needs the result
09:47<_dp_>frosch123, but since it's a server it could possibly execute that command immediately instead of putting it in queue
09:48<_dp_>"In theory, we could execute the command right away, but then the client on the server can do everything 1 tick faster than others."
09:48<_dp_>found it, that that silly reason
09:49<_dp_>like, who the fuck cares if it's 1 tick faster
09:50<_dp_>and on dedicated server it makes no sense whatsoever
09:52<LordAro>frosch123: you should definitely look at #6469
09:52<_dp_>actually, doesn't that make 2 frame delay for gs?
09:54<andythenorth>we don’t have a FS bot eh?
09:54<_dp_>who wanted to remove some settings? there's _settings_client.network.frame_freq
09:54<_dp_>don't think it even works with freq != 1
09:55<_dp_>I mean 0
09:56<frosch123>andythenorth: we do, it's named "andy"
09:56<andythenorth>I didn’t provide the link :P
09:56<frosch123>@fs 6469
09:56<@DorpsGek>frosch123: http://bugs.openttd.org/task/6469
09:56<frosch123>that one?
09:56<andythenorth>yup
09:56<andythenorth>that one
09:59<frosch123>hmm, mingw-w64 project has a feed on the newest tracker comments on front page :p
09:59<_dp_>omg, why does it completely change gs execution order with DEBUG_DUMP_COMMANDS?
10:00<_dp_>oh, it's not changing, just disabling
10:00<frosch123>gs is disabled in replay, for obvous reasons
10:01<_dp_>frosch123, ah, so DEBUG_DUMP_COMMANDS is replay? I though it's just dump
10:04<_dp_>looks like that 1 tick handicap doesn't even add a tick, it's just because of queueing it gets delayed
10:04<frosch123>yes, dumping does not require a compiler option
10:04<andythenorth>copy-paste is rejected, right? https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=76923
10:04<andythenorth>over and over again?
10:05<_dp_>why btw?
10:05<andythenorth>not interesting?
10:05<_dp_>idk, I could use it to build X rails :p
10:06<_dp_>and mb some stations
10:06<andythenorth>I could think of so many uses :)
10:06<andythenorth>but same as I said to ic111 earlier
10:06<andythenorth>everything is rejected by default
10:07<andythenorth>there doesn’t have to be a reason, except profound lack of interest
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10:07<_dp_>andythenorth, there seem to be a lot of interest from players :p
10:07<andythenorth>I agree
10:07<andythenorth>doesn’t change the facts though :)
10:08<andythenorth>I am trying to perfect the nicest, most accurate, least hostile version of
10:08<andythenorth>“everything is pretty much rejected”
10:08<frosch123>LordAro: any experience with mingw?
10:08<_dp_>andythenorth, "game is dead"? :p
10:08<andythenorth>the explanations of ‘this is all free, you don’t pay for it, developers give their own time” etc
10:08<andythenorth>are true but boring
10:09<andythenorth>_dp_: it’s been dead since start, I’ve been reading older forum + commits
10:09<LordAro>frosch123: too much
10:09<LordAro>what's up?
10:09<frosch123>LordAro: can you confirm/deny that there is no mingw version which supports both win9x and c++11. i.e. mingw only running gcc 4.8, and mingw-w64 only supporting 2000+
10:09<andythenorth>old forum posts are full of “but why is cool feature X not done yet"
10:09<_dp_>andythenorth, so it's undead?
10:09<andythenorth>walking dead
10:10<andythenorth>rolling stone, gathers no moss
10:10<_dp_>crawling and eating brainz xD
10:10<andythenorth>hard to board a moving train
10:10<andythenorth>bad metaphors :P
10:10<andythenorth>my 2 line patch for speed turns out to assert
10:10*andythenorth is not a programmer :(
10:11<LordAro>frosch123: that sounds about right
10:11<Wolf01>Mmmh, I think I'm overdoing it with symfony... 435435 classes just to upload and validate a file
10:11<LordAro>i don't think it'd be a great loss to lose support for win9x
10:12<frosch123>no, but it's better with a good reason :)
10:12<LordAro>Wolf01: lol
10:14*andythenorth just dropped IE 9 :P
10:14<andythenorth>it’s nice to lose old things
10:14<Wolf01>Eh, request was fine... no "error" array in symfony request, that's the validator role, you must do an object (maybe an Entity if you want to save the details somewhere) and apply the validator which required ClassMetadata and Constraints...
10:15<Wolf01>Also, better to use generated forms so it can handle the visual errors too
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10:22<_dp_>hm, and why did I suddenly remember some piece of indian wisdom...
10:25*_dp_ now thinking of making a grf with undead ponies
10:26<Flygon_>> grf with undead ponies
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10:27<Flygon>Ragnarok Online's .grfs aren't close enough? :B
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10:58<andythenorth>undead pony can’t dance _dp_?
10:59<_dp_>huh?
11:02<andythenorth>indian wisdom
11:06<_dp_>andythenorth, dead pony can't, undead can :p
11:20<andythenorth>wisdom
11:20<andythenorth>is it bedtime yet?
11:20<Wolf01>Mmmh, after doing it I'm asking myself if a log parser is actually useful :|
11:21<andythenorth>does it work? o_O
11:22<Wolf01>Almost, but that's the same stuff you can read by opening the file with a notepad
11:22<andythenorth>can it count?
11:22<Wolf01>It could only be useful for stats
11:22<andythenorth>purpose of a log parser is aggregating and filtering
11:23<Wolf01>Also, it seem that windows logs are different than os x ones, and maybe it is different depending on game version too
11:24<andythenorth>different format?
11:24<andythenorth>or different content?
11:24<Wolf01>Both
11:24<Wolf01>Ok, format is plain text
11:24<andythenorth>different key/value pairs?
11:24<Wolf01>Some yes
11:25<andythenorth>just count them if they’re present, otherwise ignore
11:25*andythenorth isn’t actually sure this is useful yet
11:25<andythenorth>but it’s interesting exercise
11:25<Wolf01>Yes, it already does that, but from the log you passed me I can't load a section
11:25<Wolf01>Which works in my logs
11:26<andythenorth>more logs https://bugs.openttd.org/index.php?string=crash%3A&project=1&search_name=&has_attachment=1
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11:35<Wolf01>Mmmh there is a F2P trains MMO on steam...
11:38<Wolf01>Ok, not true, not on steam
11:41<andythenorth>http://forums.accuweather.com/uploads/post-13204-1394292647.gif
12:01<frosch123>who is the guy at the end?
12:01<andythenorth>didn’t watch that far :)
12:01<andythenorth>good though
12:02<frosch123>well, i mean the one before it restarts :p
12:02<andythenorth>now I am watching again :P
12:03<andythenorth>ha
12:04*andythenorth will now present his New OpenTTD Economy All Rebalanced PDF
12:04<frosch123>does it involve sending bitcoins to andy?
12:05<andythenorth>intriguing, but now
12:05<andythenorth>no *
12:05<andythenorth>it will involve a lot of typos
12:10<andythenorth>trolling aside, I have started roughing out some ideas
12:10<andythenorth>but it seems like a really hard problem
12:11<andythenorth>somewhere there is an overlap of concerns between towns, economy, cargo payment and maybe industry
12:11<andythenorth>and another overlap between newgrf and GS
12:11<andythenorth>on balance, NoTrees -> newgrf might be more fun :P
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12:20<andythenorth>https://wiki.openttd.org/Requested_features#How_to_request_a_feature
12:20<andythenorth>^ should I just delete that?
12:20<andythenorth>I considered rewriting it
12:20<andythenorth>e.g. “Join irc” etc
12:20<andythenorth>but I think “No” is just easier
12:23<LordAro>definitely needs rewriting
12:23<andythenorth>there’s no delete in a wiki?
12:23<andythenorth>there is junk https://wiki.openttd.org/NewGRF_TODO
12:23<andythenorth>and more junk https://wiki.openttd.org/NewGRF_Features
12:23<LordAro>something along the lines of "it's important to receive some feedback on your idea first, as it may have already been done, worked on, or otherwise rejected for some reason or another"
12:24<andythenorth>and more junk https://wiki.openttd.org/NewGRF_(Air)Ports
12:24<LordAro>heh
12:24<Wolf01>andythenorth: you can redirect those page to a "No" page
12:24<LordAro>needs sysop to delete a page
12:24*andythenorth looks for a list of sysops
12:24<Wolf01>Deleting stuff on internet is always bad
12:25*andythenorth wonders if we could ‘unofficial’ the wiki
12:25<andythenorth>I like wikia fan wikis http://lego.wikia.com/wiki/LEGO_Wiki
12:26<andythenorth>I am twitchy about our wiki because it’s Highly Official
12:26<andythenorth>but also All Wrong
12:26<andythenorth>I don’t care about other people being wrong on the internet...
12:27<andythenorth>we could write some version controlled docs, and literally abandon the wiki :P
12:27<ic111>Isn't there more the caption the problem of that page?
12:27<ic111>The caption tells "how to request a feature"
12:27<ic111>and the text tells me, that I should choose how finished the feature is, measured in percent
12:28<andythenorth>it’s all just wrong :)
12:28<andythenorth>there is no mechanic for ‘requesting a feature'
12:28<andythenorth>that presumes some kind of service is offered
12:29<Wolf01>Eh, make the wiki readonly for non-devs
12:29<Wolf01>Changes to the wiki must be sent with FS
12:30<Wolf01>More tasks
12:30<andythenorth>just need a bonfire
12:30<andythenorth>who’s op?
12:31<andythenorth>https://wiki.openttd.org/Category:SysOp
12:32<Wolf01>Some names I've never seen in the latest 6-8 years
12:33<LordAro>heh
12:33<LordAro>probably doesn't need sysop, tbh
12:33<LordAro>some-privilege-higher-than-standard-user
12:34<Wolf01>An admin can do it for sure
12:35<Wolf01>Maybe an editor too
12:35<Wolf01>I was editor on a wiki and I could create redirects
12:36<Wolf01>BTW GTG, BBL
12:38<LordAro>anyone can create redirects
12:38<andythenorth>I don’t want to just vandalise
12:38<andythenorth>but currently I’m tempted to just delete the contents
12:39<andythenorth>maybe I should post in forums
12:39<LordAro>i presume there's a "deletion" template somewhere?
12:39<andythenorth>there’s 'outdated'
12:39<andythenorth>but I couldn’t see a ‘deleted'
12:40<andythenorth>ah https://wiki.openttd.org/Template:Delete
12:40<andythenorth>awesome
12:40<ic111>To be honest, I don't completely understand the problem
12:40<ic111>A description what one should do if one has a suggestion IMHO is a senseful thing in such a project
12:41<ic111>I mean, you don't need to use the strong word "request"
12:42<ic111>But changing the page to something like "how to propose a suggestion", together with a link to the suggestion forum, and a clear hint that one should look before, what has already been suggested?
12:43<andythenorth>oh yeah that’s fine
12:43<andythenorth>there’s other stuff
12:43<andythenorth>dead pages
12:44<ic111>In which respect "dead"?
12:45<andythenorth>e.g. https://wiki.openttd.org/NewGRF_TODO
12:45<andythenorth>also https://wiki.openttd.org/NewGRF_Features
12:46<andythenorth>also https://wiki.openttd.org/NewGRF_Sets
12:47<ic111>Wasn't there a much more detailed list for the latter one (NewGRF_Sets) somewhere?
12:48<ic111>So yes, I see why you need Deletion...
12:50<andythenorth>https://wiki.openttd.org/NewGRF#Version_1.0_and_earlier <- who cares?
12:50<andythenorth>it’s dead
12:51<ic111>Something for the computer archaeologists?
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12:55<andythenorth>pages like this are a waste of people’s lives
12:55<andythenorth>https://wiki.openttd.org/Openttd.cfg
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13:14<LordAro>andythenorth: i wouldn't say so
13:14<LordAro>i think the subpages are perhaps a bit redundant
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13:23<andythenorth>but we can generate openttd.cfg from the src
13:24<andythenorth>people writing it all out again…blearch
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13:25<LordAro>o/
13:26<@Alberth>o/
13:35<andythenorth>hi Alberth :)
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13:43<andythenorth>web translations have been a massive win for OpenTTD, yes/no?
13:44<@Alberth>think so indeed
13:44<@Alberth>at least for newgrf and scripts
13:44<andythenorth>great :)
13:44<andythenorth>it’s nice to win
13:44<@Alberth>\o/
13:45*andythenorth is on a wiki rampage
13:45<andythenorth>wondering about writing some actual docs
13:45<@Alberth>openttd itself has had a web translator for eons :)
13:45<andythenorth>wondering if we can have a docs project, fed by pull requests, and encourage translations of the docs
13:45<@Alberth>what docs?
13:46<andythenorth>wiki is as wiki does
13:46<@Alberth>of course you can have a docs project
13:46<andythenorth>some of wiki is…great
13:46<andythenorth>some is…awful
13:46<andythenorth>some is just old
13:46<andythenorth>BUT
13:46<V453000>stuffz
13:46<V453000>iz back
13:46<andythenorth>every docs project I’ve been involved in
13:46<@Alberth>Vz are back too :)
13:47<andythenorth>gets stuck on an argument about ‘use Sphinx or not?'
13:47<andythenorth>:P
13:47<V453000>Sphinx has no nose
13:49<@Alberth>sphinx is nice, but somewhat complicated
13:49<@Alberth>markdown may be enough for a wiki-ish thing
13:50<@Alberth>eclipse picked asciidoc, never looked at it
13:50<andythenorth>I like https://readthedocs.org/
13:51<andythenorth>it can import from a repo
13:52<frosch123>why would other stuff be better than the wiki?
13:52<andythenorth>that is the question
13:52<andythenorth>and I don’t know
13:52<andythenorth>on a subjective level, I hate the wiki theme
13:52<andythenorth>and I wouldn’t want to try and fix that
13:52<LordAro>andythenorth: that's just because it's old
13:52<@Alberth>wiki lacks main structure, imho
13:52<andythenorth>wiki is as wiki does
13:52<LordAro>newer mediawiki's have different themes
13:53<andythenorth>everyone knows the strengths and weaknesses of wikis, eh?
13:53<LordAro>regardless, this constant bikeshedding is useless
13:53<andythenorth>where’s the nuclear reactor? o_O
13:53<LordAro>andythenorth: north korea
13:54<andythenorth>and the one we’re approving?
13:54<@Alberth>what I mean is, I think it would help if you have a table of contents (probably 2 levels or so)
13:55<andythenorth>the current FAQ pages in the wiki are pretty sound imo
13:55<andythenorth>I just read them
13:55<andythenorth>https://wiki.openttd.org/FAQ
13:55<frosch123>Alberth: anything a bot or extension couldn't solve?
13:56<@Alberth>can it orgianize things in logical coherent groups?
13:57<andythenorth>it probably needs a human
13:57<andythenorth>unfortunately
13:57<frosch123>does any other thing do that automatically? :p
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13:57<andythenorth>AI?
13:57<@Alberth>if you have a book, you can see what's in it, and add content at a logical place
13:58<andythenorth>yes
13:58<@Alberth>wiki has no back-bone structure like that
13:58<andythenorth>it helps to go trawling the wiki, which I have just done for 2 hours
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13:58<andythenorth>FWIW, I’m doing this (1) personal interest (2) projects with strong documentation culture AND nice docs are more fun
13:59<andythenorth>we have pages like https://wiki.openttd.org/Installation
14:00<frosch123>why would you edit openttd.cfg manually?
14:00<@Alberth>bit too much for one page, but fair enough
14:01<andythenorth>“because it’s a wiki” frosch123 :)
14:01<andythenorth>although I wanted to say same
14:01<andythenorth>with more swears
14:01<frosch123>well, i have no idea who would be interested in maintaining that site
14:02<frosch123>but apparently people even translated it
14:02<andythenorth>yes
14:02<andythenorth>how ‘official’ is the wiki?
14:02<andythenorth>it’s pretty much fan-curated?
14:02<frosch123>yes, there are no official docs, except the noai/gs reference, and that is doxygen
14:03<andythenorth>noai/gs works really well btw
14:03<frosch123>it's a "dump your info" place, and i don't see how anything else would fly
14:03<andythenorth>it’s so long since I started playing
14:03<andythenorth>that I can’t think how to write a ‘get started’ guide :)
14:04<andythenorth>but eh
14:04<andythenorth>if I can be arsed, I could just start a repo and a readthedocs account?
14:04<andythenorth>it would be ‘unofficial’ but eh
14:05<frosch123>what would it be better in?
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14:05<frosch123>that everything is written by you?
14:05<frosch123>how far would you get?
14:05<andythenorth>yes
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14:05<andythenorth>I would bet that it it more likely to go on the pile of ‘failed ideas'
14:06<andythenorth>also that I would get pissed off with the idea
14:06<frosch123>not bored off?
14:06<andythenorth>well in one respect it’s a good time to do it
14:06<andythenorth>game doesn’t need to change much between releases
14:06<andythenorth>it’s a nice stable situation
14:07<frosch123>there was a dude on the german forums, wrote a book about ottd, sold it 2 times
14:07<andythenorth>‘the missing manual’? :)
14:07<frosch123>it also had a chapter how to play with firs or something
14:07<andythenorth>there are multiple youtube guides now too
14:08<andythenorth>and the redditors
14:08<frosch123>though iirc the guy never player with firs, so it likely was more like "first impressions with firs"
14:08<andythenorth>ha
14:08<andythenorth>maybe I should just fix this, and go back to FIRS :P https://wiki.openttd.org/Requested_features#How_to_request_a_feature
14:10<frosch123>4k pages on the wiki, assuming that at least half are translation, you have 10 per day :)
14:10<frosch123>well, less
14:10<frosch123>(for a year)
14:11<@Alberth>just update of the manual would be enough imho
14:12<frosch123>so you want to separate "manual" and "random dumping place"?
14:12<andythenorth>yes
14:12<andythenorth>:)
14:12<andythenorth>I am not going to ‘fix’ the wiki
14:12<frosch123>https://wiki.openttd.org/Train_Comparison <- does that belong into the manual?
14:12<andythenorth>nope
14:13<@Alberth>me? no, but a lot of pages are about old versions
14:13<andythenorth>eh, partly I got motivated becuase of the CityBuilder docs :)
14:14<andythenorth>CityMania *
14:14<andythenorth>shiny tools :P https://citymania.org/tools/townsim/layouts/10
14:15<andythenorth>frosch123: what’s your opinion on https://wiki.openttd.org/Train_Comparison ?
14:15<frosch123>every vehicle newgrf has a similar page
14:15<frosch123>so it's probably valid
14:16<andythenorth>per http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/road-hog/push/LATEST/docs/html/road_vehicles.html
14:16<andythenorth>I dropped most of the stats though
14:16<andythenorth>it’s a teaser
14:17<andythenorth>the page with all the vehicles is classic fan wikia stuff http://tropico.wikia.com/wiki/Mine_(Tropico_3_and_4)
14:17<andythenorth>what would a manual say?
14:17<andythenorth>‘get opengfx’
14:19<frosch123>https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Wartortle_(Pok%C3%A9mon) <- i don't think ottd can provide a page like that for every vehicle :p
14:20<frosch123>andythenorth: the installer already gets opengfx
14:20<andythenorth>ha
14:20<andythenorth>well, it’s all solved then :)
14:20<frosch123>see, the page about "installing openttd" confuses me
14:20<frosch123>wouldn't you rather start with a page how to use the mouse?
14:20<frosch123>or how to find the installation instructions?
14:21<andythenorth>we had some docs at work that explained how to search
14:21<andythenorth>‘type your query in the box'
14:21<andythenorth>‘press “search”'
14:21<andythenorth>I requested them deleted :P
14:21<frosch123>or is the purpose of those pages to get linked to?
14:21<andythenorth>dunno
14:22<andythenorth>something I see well-intentioned docs writers do
14:22<frosch123>like wolf could link it to his friend, so he does not need to explain how to run ottd in screen
14:22<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: don't underestimate the stupidity of the average user
14:22<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I disagree :)
14:22<andythenorth>based on having 6,000 customers often with low computer literacy
14:22<andythenorth>they aren’t stupid
14:22<andythenorth>but some do need support, and the ones that do…don’t read docs
14:23<andythenorth>so well-intentioned docs writers…often explain the obvious bits in depth
14:23<andythenorth>‘just in case’
14:23<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: compare that with the hours that i wasted because someone forgot to include something in the docs that they thought was obvious...
14:23<andythenorth>even though everyone would figure it out
14:23<andythenorth>but the hard bits are often then under-explained
14:24<andythenorth>or badly explained
14:24<andythenorth>and hence ‘delivering goods causes town growth'
14:25<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: people tried documenting "rubbing coins on the side of the device does not help coins getting accepted", that did never stop people
14:26<andythenorth>it’s hard to beat intuition eh?
14:29<andythenorth>frosch123: linking, dunno?
14:29<andythenorth>I think I’ve found some outdated dev pages in wiki, looked some more, added 1+1, and come out with 42
14:29<andythenorth>there are _probably_ more interesting problems, but eh
14:31<andythenorth>reducing it to simplest, I would rather dev page of wiki said ‘find us on [github | gitlab]’
14:33<andythenorth>for rest…I’d sooner forget it and do something fun :)
14:34<Eddi|zuHause>dev pages are always outdated
14:34<andythenorth>burn
14:34<Eddi|zuHause>because devs are busy deving and not updating dev pages
14:34<andythenorth>in the last 10 years, all the tools for this stuff have completely evolved
14:35<andythenorth>‘state of dev’ is ‘read git log'
14:35<andythenorth>‘patches’ is ‘branches + irc logs'
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14:35<andythenorth>‘how to build’ should just be in readme, which is replicated online in mulltiple place
14:36<frosch123>with ascii art screenshots?
14:37<andythenorth>well played
14:37<andythenorth>we need more unicode points :P
14:37<andythenorth>unicode-killed-ascii-art?
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14:55<andythenorth>fair edit? https://wiki.openttd.org/IRC_channel
14:55<andythenorth>or waste of time?
14:57<ic111>Related: https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=62735
14:57<ic111>It states that reviews are done on openttd.dev
14:57<ic111>But, at least given the logs, there is silence, people talk here
14:58<ic111>I must admit, that this confused me either, in that I took the activity at openttd.dev is indicator of the overall activity
14:58<ic111>for some time
15:05<ic111>test
15:05<andythenorth>yeah that needs fixed
15:05<andythenorth>I wrote some blah blah blah here https://wiki.openttd.org/Requested_features#How_to_request_a_feature
15:06<andythenorth>planetmaker: o/
15:06<andythenorth>would you be able to edit? https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=62735
15:06<andythenorth>it’s a bit misleading about openttd.dev
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15:11<frosch123>better remove all explicit content and make it only a link to the wiki
15:11<frosch123>easier to edit (than andy's readthedocs) :p
15:12<LordAro>sometimes something like readthedocs is better than a set of protected wiki pages
15:12<LordAro>pull requests, for one
15:13<andythenorth>frosch123: are you quite -1 to external docs :)
15:13<frosch123>LordAro: i think there is no single protected page
15:13<frosch123>andythenorth: i am +1 to simple permission management
15:13<frosch123>make it easy for people to edit tuff
15:13<frosch123>+s
15:13<LordAro>frosch123: what do you mean?
15:14<frosch123>LordAro: i think our wiki has about none protected pages
15:14<LordAro>https://wiki.openttd.org/Todo_list ahem.
15:15<frosch123>hmm, the special page to list them is broken :/
15:15<andythenorth>yeah
15:15<LordAro>lol
15:15<andythenorth>that was a trigger actually
15:15<LordAro>oh jees, mediawiki 1.19
15:15<andythenorth>I didn’t want to be bothering frosch123 or Alberth about locked wiki pages
15:15<LordAro>they're up to 1.29 now
15:15<andythenorth>seemed like a waste of people’s time
15:16<Eddi|zuHause>LordAro: you're volunteering to keep it uptodate?
15:16<LordAro>Eddi|zuHause: well
15:16<frosch123>so, protected pages are: roadmaps, todo list, "to do for releases", various wiki-internal sites
15:17<LordAro>once i've finished with the 2 other wiki's i'm currently working on..
15:17<frosch123>https://wiki.openttd.org/My_spam_blacklist <- and that one, wtf?
15:17<LordAro>frosch123: probably related to the spamblacklist plugin?
15:17<frosch123>ah, maybe
15:17<LordAro>not that it's been touched in over a decade
15:18<frosch123>well, spam is only added manually these days, removing their sites with a bot scared them away
15:19<frosch123>as in: there used to be regular search-machine-index scam on the wiki, which i used to delete manually
15:19<LordAro>heh
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15:19<frosch123>then i got tired and wrote a bot, and after first use they stopped
15:19<y2000rtc>Hi there.
15:19<LordAro>but yeah, i could definitely take a look at upgrading the wiki at some point in the future
15:19<LordAro>once i've cleared my backlog of wiki updates :)
15:19<LordAro>i am far too familiar with it by this point
15:20<LordAro>doesn't look too bad in terms of plugins
15:20<y2000rtc>andythenorth: Hi Andy.
15:20<andythenorth>hi
15:21<Eddi|zuHause>that seems nice... http://steamcommunity.com/app/282760 (has nothing to do with logic circuits)
15:21<y2000rtc>andythenorth: Do you have more power for helping me? :)
15:21<LordAro>i'd imagine most of the difficulty would be upgrading to a version of debian newer than oldoldstable
15:21<LordAro>depending how it's setup
15:21<Eddi|zuHause>it's a music puzzle
15:21<andythenorth>y2000rtc: try it and see
15:21<andythenorth>maybe / maybe not
15:22<andythenorth>;)
15:22<y2000rtc>andythenorth: Ok, it makes sence. :)
15:28<andythenorth>V453000: so iz?
15:29<V453000>wot
15:30<andythenorth>moar?
15:30<V453000>but wot
15:30<andythenorth>art, stuff
15:30<V453000>iz trying to moar
15:31<andythenorth>life, babies, animals
15:31<V453000>but got drunk yesterday and brain still in retard mode
15:31<andythenorth>inevitable
15:31<V453000>trying to put together final form of temperate trees
15:31<andythenorth>can talk bollocks instead?
15:31<V453000>can
15:31*andythenorth is having a holiday from MOAR
15:31<V453000>=D
15:31<ic111>Regarding https://wiki.openttd.org/Requested_features#How_to_request_a_feature
15:31*andythenorth pretending to fix docs instead
15:32<andythenorth>such vandalism
15:32<V453000>which docs?
15:32<andythenorth>all
15:32<andythenorth>everywhere
15:32<andythenorth>ever
15:32<andythenorth>V453000: you write good docs
15:32<andythenorth>"OpenTTD: Missing Manual (by V453000 and andythenorth)”
15:32<V453000>XD
15:32<Wolf01>All hail our new overlord andythenorth
15:33<andythenorth>Wolf01: no is unofficial
15:33<V453000>so what kind of manual
15:33<andythenorth>1. Download
15:33<andythenorth>2. Enjoy game
15:33<andythenorth>3. Don’t lick pixels
15:33<andythenorth>FIN
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>there was a guy who made an "unofficial" manual (in german)
15:34<andythenorth>frosch said he sold 2 copies of it
15:34<V453000>4. using cargodist, PBS, zbase, terrain variety distribution, ECS and flyspray for dumb requests is punishable by death
15:35<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: yeah. something like that :p
15:35<ic111>Is there really no positive vision about contributing to the codebase? Things were help is appreciated, and similar? The way how this page, and similar pages, is written now to a patch developer reads like 'This game is called OpenTTD, but you should not try to contribute' (a bit overstated)
15:35<andythenorth>ic111 dunno, we can try and rewrite it?
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15:35<ic111>It's just the impression I had when reading it
15:35<andythenorth>basically, we already have a queue of patches, and some of them even look not shit
15:35<LordAro>it's not quite the same, but https://github.com/SFTtech/openage/blob/master/doc/contributing.md
15:36<andythenorth>more patches just seems to increase pressure on remaining developers to review
15:36<andythenorth>they can either ignore pressure, or quite
15:36<andythenorth>quit *
15:36<andythenorth>neither outcome is optimum all round :P
15:36<ic111>LordAro: Ok, I didn't read that one
15:37<LordAro>and also https://github.com/SFTtech/openage/blob/master/README.md#contributing
15:37<LordAro>ic111: i wouldn't have expected you to? :p
15:37<LordAro>or did you see "open" and not read any further? :p
15:37<ic111>Sorry, I don't understand
15:38<ic111>Maybe place a link to the contributing-pages at the how-to-request-a-feature-page?
15:38<LordAro>those links are for openage, not openttd
15:38<ic111>Ah, sorry
15:38<ic111>I copied the link and started to read
15:38<andythenorth>ic111: possibilities for positive things to do
15:38<andythenorth>- review crashes in flyspray, and try to diagnose
15:39<andythenorth>- review bugs in flyspray and try to repro
15:39<andythenorth>- improve wiki docs
15:39<ic111>Then IMHO you should notice that were you currently simply write "it is very unlikely that we accept your patch"
15:40<andythenorth>I think it would be better to do that here https://wiki.openttd.org/FAQ_development
15:40<andythenorth>wikis being wikis, ours has tended to grow official-looking patch lists, feature request lists etc
15:40<andythenorth>I was just trying to unfuck the feature requests page, which was basically lies, which makes me uncomfortable
15:41<ic111>Certainly a senseful job...
15:41<andythenorth>maybe I should just have deleted the ‘how to feature requests’ section
15:41<andythenorth>and marked the page as old
15:41<LordAro>andythenorth: or delete & link to FAQ Development
15:42<andythenorth>delete the section?
15:42<andythenorth>or the page?
15:42<LordAro>the section
15:42<LordAro>mark page as historical
15:42<andythenorth>yup ok
15:42<LordAro>or someting
15:43<andythenorth>I considered deleting the page, but updating it proved the point that newgrf / GS content wins
15:43<ic111>Well... Not all can be done by NewGrf / GS, and not in all circumstances IMHO it is the best option
15:44<ic111>IMHO it just has its limitations, as every tool has
15:46<ic111>But, regarding the above point, of course pointing out that this is a stable game is valid, but if I listen here, then I don't have the feeling that there are no ideas for senseful codechanges around
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15:47<ic111>So, IMHO one should try to direct people into a senseful direction, instead of telling them "senseless to contribute" (again overstated)
15:47<andythenorth>I guess
15:48<andythenorth>we’re slightly trapped, in that the number of people left who can review
15:48<andythenorth>is possibly too small to increase the number of people who can review
15:48<andythenorth>but eh
15:48<ic111>Yes, this is probably a problem
15:54<ic111>Maybe this is something one could mention on such pages: (1) We have little manpower to review patches, as we all do this in our spare time, (2) We have little time to review patches that in an unnecessary way deviate from coding style etc., so try to deliver us quality, (3) Thus, be prepared to wait for a longer time, maybe no one finds the time for your patch at all,
15:57<LordAro>^
15:57<LordAro>good words
15:58<andythenorth>it’s kinder than mine
15:59<andythenorth>I’m just inclined to make it more of a game :P
15:59<andythenorth>I get a lot of ponies
15:59<andythenorth>and I treat each one as a game, trying to find out how to get someone interested, and what I have to do to help
15:59<andythenorth>just turning up and demanding…doesn’t work
16:00<andythenorth>unfortunately, even a well prepared patch can appear like a demand, to a reviewer
16:00<andythenorth>it wasn’t always asked for, then it becomes work
16:00<andythenorth>and someone who is rejected is naturally offended, where no offense was intended
16:01<ic111>Basically, this is the question which features are in theory appreciated, if someone does the work, and which are regarded as unnecessary / unwanted
16:02<_dp_>hmm... I just checked my patches and curiously it seems that none of my patches that were merged I ever brought up in irc
16:02<_dp_>ones that I did are still open :p
16:02<andythenorth>ha ha
16:02<andythenorth>empiricism > theory
16:05<andythenorth>ic111 it’s impossible for me to answer
16:05<andythenorth>based on the last 12 months, only peter113*, frosch, alberth and adf88 can answer for what’s appreciated ;)
16:06<andythenorth>it’s easy to say stuff like ‘code style’, ‘doesn’t desync’ etc
16:06<andythenorth>but I can’t give more guide than that
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: what's the takeaway here? if you keep your patches secret they get merged easier? :p
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>correlation > causality :p
16:07<andythenorth>https://git.openttd.org/?p=trunk.git&a=search&h=HEAD&st=commit&s=_dp_
16:09<andythenorth>ic111: probably distinguish feature / patch quite strongly
16:09<andythenorth>codechange / fix patches get added at a pretty good rate imho
16:09<andythenorth>based on scanning https://git.openttd.org/?p=trunk.git;a=shortlog;pg=1
16:09<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, no takeaway, just observation :p
16:10<andythenorth>V453000: haz tried JGR patchpack?
16:10<V453000>probably yes at some point
16:10<_dp_>btw, I don't think I've ever heard anything like "that's a great idea, code it and we'll merge it" here.
16:10<V453000>generally I boycott patches unless someone really makes me try it for some reason
16:10<frosch123>andythenorth: patches are no anonymous submission. a patch by someone is easier to review if the previous patch by that person was easy to review
16:10<V453000>mainly cause save compatibility
16:11<_dp_>even though people constantly suggest stuff
16:11<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: If you don't publicise things to random semi-interested people, they don't get bikeshedded?
16:11<andythenorth>frosch123: that’s just whuffie :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whuffie
16:12<andythenorth>V453000 JGR pack is packed full of NEW
16:12<V453000>yes that I know
16:13<andythenorth>_dp_: “code it and we’ll merge it” happened at least once https://git.openttd.org/?p=trunk.git;a=commit;h=3f036c6af2c43f582c61761b6c4ffe34954508f3
16:13<Wolf01><andythenorth> V453000 JGR pack is packed full of NEW <- while our ambition is packed full of Not*
16:14<andythenorth>it’s worth trying
16:14<andythenorth>I think it’s really good having a giant patch pack full of everything
16:15<andythenorth>it’s a place to try the ideas, instead of hot air theorising
16:15<Wolf01>BTW, could we finish NRT?
16:15*andythenorth would _never_ just talk about something :P
16:15<andythenorth>Wolf01 yes, but we’ve got merge conflicts with openttd master
16:15<andythenorth>and I can’t fix them
16:15<andythenorth>tried earlier
16:16<Wolf01>I could try to fix them, where are the conflicts?
16:16<andythenorth>have you got openttd set up as a remote?
16:17<Wolf01>No, is nrt/master in sync?
16:17<_dp_>andythenorth, that's 2012, I was hardly even playing openttd back then :p
16:17<andythenorth>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pxrhye6g6
16:17<andythenorth>my patching success was short-lived :P
16:18<Wolf01>WTF github doesn't have a button for swapping base with compare?
16:19<andythenorth>somewhere
16:19<andythenorth>but it’s confusing
16:19<andythenorth>it is there in the UI I swear
16:20<V453000>some of the patches are pretty impressive, mostly the quality of life gui stuff, things like signals on bridges etc are plain dumb shit, but moar better UI is definitely a good way to go in my opinion
16:20<V453000>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=53394
16:20<V453000>like this
16:20<_dp_>that callback though... I remember not liking it for some reason :p
16:20<andythenorth>the zoom out viewport worked better than I thought
16:20<andythenorth>I was 99% certain it would chug
16:20<Wolf01><andythenorth> it is there in the UI I swear <- it only appear if you don't have any commit
16:20<andythenorth>it’s useless zooming out to 128x but eh
16:21<Wolf01>Zooming out to > 8x is useless, but zooming out to minimap is really nice... see factorio
16:22<V453000>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=35805 this is great, intuitive as fuck
16:22<_dp_>ah, I remembery why, it makes default production levels totally unconfigurable :p
16:22<andythenorth>V453000: try using build-and-refit in game, it’s total shit
16:23<+michi_cc>And if the existing patch for that wouldn't duplicate and reimplement the whole minimap code it might've already been merged.
16:23<V453000>really?
16:23<V453000>why?
16:23<andythenorth>terrible UI
16:23<andythenorth>it adds a toggle, pointless
16:23<andythenorth>it’s ugly
16:23<andythenorth>it’s confusing
16:23<V453000>wait how exactly does it work?
16:23<andythenorth>and lang strings won’t work
16:23<V453000>it builds the vehicle in the refit that you were filtering?
16:24<Wolf01>Build and refit should be the standard action for refitable vehicles
16:24<V453000>I might be misunderstanding
16:24<Wolf01>Luckily the grfs I use support refit at station
16:25<andythenorth>it’s not a crap idea
16:25<andythenorth>it’s just a crap implementation
16:25<andythenorth>lots of the patches have awful UI
16:25<andythenorth>it just adds mess
16:25<Wolf01>Like the current UI is state of art
16:25<andythenorth>it’s mostly coherent
16:26<Wolf01>Lol... we have 265 styles on different UIs
16:26<andythenorth>Wolf01: JGR patchpack is a clean compile - try it :)
16:26<andythenorth>it’s a good vision of how the UI collapses into hell if patches are just added with no desgin
16:26<andythenorth>design *
16:27<Wolf01>Yeah, but I'm afraid to abandon trunk if I try that
16:27<andythenorth>it has your measure tool in it :)
16:28<V453000>eh, patches
16:28<_dp_>hm, to me it looks that build and refit is no faster than doing it with regular interface...
16:28<andythenorth>it’s not a bad idea
16:28<_dp_>but I usually know what wagon I need
16:28<V453000>really not that much useful in these 60 patches tbh
16:28<_dp_>mb it will be better if it said like "buy and refit to oil"
16:28*andythenorth stops discussing buy-and-refit before FLHerne says ‘bikeshedding’ again :)
16:29<andythenorth>the local authority overlay is pretty good in JGR
16:29<_dp_>andythenorth, yeah, until you look at code :p
16:30<andythenorth>is it bad?
16:30<V453000>doing something about breakdowns would be awesome, Hirundo makes it better by adding variety, but I think the most critical problem is still there - properly serviced vehicles should never break down. Not realistic, but gameplay do stuff - get rewarded good. Maybe at least something along the lines like the train-stopping breakdowns would be prevented when reliability would be above some threshold would make sense.
16:30<_dp_>andythenorth, looping over all towns for each tile
16:30<andythenorth>:o
16:30<V453000>though I don't think you can explain reliability with people pulling emergency brakes XD can remove that one
16:30<FLHerne>andythenorth: Eh, I love that patch :P
16:30<FLHerne>(using JGRPP)
16:30*andythenorth proposes newgrf tile overlays :P
16:30<_dp_>and those frame sprites don't make great overlays either
16:31<andythenorth>no
16:31<FLHerne>Hey, that's a pretty cool idea actually
16:31<andythenorth>and it should be on transparency
16:31<andythenorth>newgrf can read town
16:31<andythenorth>newgrf can read other stuff
16:31<_dp_>yeah, but transparency is probably a no go for 8 bit
16:31<andythenorth>I mean it should be on transparency palette
16:32<andythenorth>not a separate whole new window called ‘zoning'
16:32<V453000>sleep time
16:32<V453000>bai
16:32<andythenorth>which I first thought was an implementation of the zones in original sim city
16:32<frosch123>andythenorth: i am very much in favour of highlighting stuff, like station catchment toggleable in station window etc... it just needs a shared solution, which means refactoring instead of feature-jumping
16:32<andythenorth>bai V453000
16:32<V453000>made some progress on trees :) iz good
16:32<andythenorth>frosch123: +1
16:32<V453000>frosch123: arr +1
16:33<andythenorth>having tried JGR PP, and read the threads for the patches
16:33<frosch123>but we did not even figure out the transparency gui :p
16:33<andythenorth>it all lacks any architecture
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16:33<andythenorth>at least where I see it, in UI
16:33*andythenorth can’t speak for code
16:33<andythenorth>but JGR patchpack *looks* like this http://thecodelesscode.com/case/33
16:34<andythenorth>(scroll for picture)
16:34<ic111>frosch123: When I hear something like this, then I ask me the question why things like that ("needs refactoring") isn't mentioned on a how-to-contribute-page?
16:34<_dp_>andythenorth, ah, dunno, it doesn't quite fit there. zoning is usually something you want to just check and hide again
16:34<_dp_>andythenorth, and transparency you set up once and use hotkey
16:35<andythenorth>yes - check and hide again - just like toggling transparency on and off
16:35<FLHerne>Useful things in JGRPP, IMO: Restrictive signals, conditional-order-by-train-length, buy-and-refit, usable level crossings, town-cargo factor
16:35<andythenorth>it’s even the same case
16:35<andythenorth>hiding houses or industries is when you’re constructing, which is also when overlays for LA are wanted
16:36<andythenorth>FLHerne: how do the restrictive signals work, didn’t get that far yet?
16:36<_dp_>andythenorth, it's only transpacency mode that gets toggled, individual settings in palette usually are not
16:36<FLHerne>A lot of the other stuff is either really niche or not useful or doesn't really work
16:36<FLHerne>andythenorth: You can have signals that disallow trains >n length, or not carrying X
16:36<andythenorth>newgrf :P
16:36<_dp_>andythenorth, and btw some zonings make more sense combined with building tools
16:36<_dp_>like catchment areas
16:37<FLHerne>andythenorth: They let you take a lot of really messy conditional waypoint orders out
16:37<andythenorth>oh god, even more signals in the UI :(
16:37<andythenorth>my eyes
16:37<_dp_>or industry placement (that's not in jgrpp)
16:37<andythenorth>wtf
16:37<FLHerne>(possibly more so if you're overabusing station refits)
16:37<andythenorth>_dp_: eh you might be right
16:38<FLHerne>andythenorth: No, you set rules on normal signals
16:38<FLHerne>There's no extra type
16:38<andythenorth>eh?
16:38<andythenorth>there’s an orange one
16:38<andythenorth>there are now 14 signals
16:38<andythenorth>of those, most people only need PBS colour light
16:38<FLHerne>andythenorth: Oh, that's progsigs. Different patch :P
16:38<FLHerne>Vast overkill
16:39<andythenorth>there’s a spanner icon
16:39<andythenorth>what’s that?
16:39<andythenorth>fix broken signals?
16:39<andythenorth>Realism
16:39<andythenorth>new breakdown mode: signal failure
16:39<FLHerne>I have a gear, but not a spanner. Otherbaseset?
16:39<andythenorth>yup
16:40<FLHerne>andythenorth: The one that says "Routefinding restriction" is the useful one
16:40<andythenorth>trying to make it work
16:40<FLHerne>Progsigs theoretically seem nice, but they're far too much of a pain to actually bother with in any real game
16:40<andythenorth>it even has a right arrow in case you want to move the viewport 100px
16:40<andythenorth>fantastic feature
16:41<andythenorth>glad that’s there
16:41<FLHerne>Click "Routefinding restriction", click a signal, set the restrictions
16:41<andythenorth>I have
16:41<andythenorth>it’s one of those UIs
16:42<andythenorth>that would be easier if it wasn’t
16:42<andythenorth>stuff like this is just easier to type in code
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16:42<andythenorth>if tl>2: deny
16:42<andythenorth>rather than 7 shit buttons
16:42<FLHerne>Agreed
16:43<FLHerne>OTOH, having to read syntax documention before playing would be a bit of a nuisance
16:43<andythenorth>it also has the ‘load by cargo’ UI
16:43<_dp_>can't tl be checked with rails/presignals?
16:44<FLHerne>Some kind of draggable-blocks thing would be nice, but wouldn't really fit with the UI style :P
16:44<andythenorth>ha I like the ‘automate’ button on timetables
16:44*andythenorth clicks it
16:44<andythenorth>nah, nothing happened
16:44<FLHerne>andythenorth: Oh, that one's far more useful than it ought to be for being a disgusting hack
16:44<FLHerne>Basically, it dynamically fucks with each vehicle's timetable to keep them a constant distance apart
16:45<FLHerne>Good for buses
16:45<FLHerne>Doesn't work with ships, because timetables don't work for ships for some stupid reason
16:46<FLHerne>Gets problematic if you have congestion, because it only separates vehicles by delaying them, and you can get in a loop where it essentially freezes all the vehicles
16:47<andythenorth>I only tried timetables with ships
16:47<FLHerne>(because vehicles on route A wait for a slot, and delay vehicles on route B, so then the next A gets delayed and every other A gets delayed to compensate, which delays all the Bs...)
16:47<andythenorth>is that why I declared them broken?
16:47<FLHerne>Possibly
16:47<FLHerne>I mean, they're broken for everything else too from a sane perspective
16:47<andythenorth>total no-op as far as I could tell
16:47<FLHerne>But at least they /work/
16:47<FLHerne>Yeah, ship timetables literally do nothing
16:47<andythenorth>I clicked all the buttons as instructed, ships travel bunched together
16:47<FLHerne>I don't know why
16:47<andythenorth>because crap patches
16:48<FLHerne>I think they're broken in trunk also
16:48<FLHerne>Or featured, possibly
16:48<andythenorth>yes, I tried them in trunk
16:49<FLHerne>Well, I suppose that would also be down to crap patches
16:49<andythenorth>I have been offensive about them ever since
16:49<frosch123>i guess i never used ships with timetables, but i also have never seens a bugreport about them :)
16:49<FLHerne>andythenorth: Try them on RVs instead, don't worry, you can continue to be offensive about them
16:50<andythenorth>frosch123: I assumed EBKC
16:50<Wolf01>Mmm I'm a special kind of stupid... "lets start netflix and watch a tv show while listening to music"
16:50<FLHerne>Hey, where did all the bugs go?
16:50<FLHerne>andythenorth: I heard you were removing random FS tasks
16:50<andythenorth>I didn’t quite get as far as randomising
16:50<FLHerne>Oh, nvm
16:51<FLHerne>For some reason, my FS bookmark was for some arbitrary search result
16:51<FLHerne>So I only saw 8 tasks, total...
16:52<andythenorth>I didn’t get that far…
16:52<andythenorth>yet
16:53<FLHerne>frosch123: I guess it's a subcategory of https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6006 ? Although IME it works for the other types
16:53<Wolf01>http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1125300707 lol
16:53<FLHerne>(not sure about aircraft, I don't use them really)
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17:03<Eddi|zuHause>dangit, i bought "deponia" and already i'm hopelessly stuck in the first chapter...
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17:03<Eddi|zuHause>i feel like i've grown more impatient about being stuck in adventures
17:04<Wolf01>I've finished it with one ending
17:04<Alkel_U3>I haven't managed to get out of the house where it starts yet
17:04<Wolf01>TBH I liked more primordia
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>Alkel_U3: i managed that once i found out i can hold space bar to view "interesting" pieces
17:07<andythenorth>FWIW, there are a couple of timetable bugs here which need repro https://bugs.openttd.org/index.php?string=timetable%3A&project=1
17:07<Wolf01>I tried the "droggeljug" mode, where every dialog is changed with "droggeljug droggeljug droggeljug"
17:07<andythenorth>ic111: ^^
17:08<Alkel_U3>Eddi|zuHause: ah, thanks for the tip, that might get me somwhere
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>Alkel_U3: it took me going to the menu and browsing the tips for that :p
17:10<Wolf01>Could I be able do play a skirmish in halo wars 2 this evening? It's being loading for 5 minutes
17:10<ic111>andythenorth: Yes, IMHO the present timetable system is some sort of a bug... (otherwise I wouldn't spent so much time on that)
17:10<ic111>wouldn´ t have
17:13<Eddi|zuHause>hehe :)
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17:20<andythenorth>such bedtime
17:20<andythenorth>bye
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17:30<Eddi|zuHause>one day he finds the bedtime, i'm sure.
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19:45<Wolf01>'night
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---Logclosed Mon Sep 04 00:00:42 2017