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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-09-04

---Logopened Mon Sep 04 00:00:42 2017
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02:04<andythenorth>o/
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03:37<V453000>sdf?
03:51<andythenorth>V453000: iz
03:55<V453000>really
03:55<V453000>kind of monday
03:56<andythenorth>Monday as AF
03:58<LordAro>it is monday
03:58<LordAro>my dudes
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04:42<Alkel_U3>I like this particular monday so far
04:43<andythenorth>mine contains more <br /> than I want
04:44<andythenorth>and it’s nobody else’s job to fix them
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05:03<V453000>I'm getting wrecked by blender again :D
05:03<andythenorth>for F?
05:03<V453000>yez
05:03<andythenorth>stop moonlighting on this F thing
05:04<andythenorth>just because it pays you :P
05:04<andythenorth>Yetis feel neglected
05:04<V453000>xd
05:04*andythenorth back to html
05:04<@peter1138>F?
05:05<andythenorth>Factorio
05:06<andythenorth>we need a back-to-work bot
05:06<andythenorth>for certain hours of day :P
05:06<crem>If I ever recommended Prison Architect, I've reconsidered it and revoking my recommendation.
05:07<andythenorth>unless I make the websites to sell more stuff, I won’t be able to employ anyone else to make the websites :P
05:07<V453000>stronk recommendation statement right there
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05:10<@peter1138>I like this review
05:10<@peter1138>Not Recommended: 私は工場で働き、ここにはモンスターがないことを伝えます。
05:10<Wolf01>o/
05:11<Wolf01>Ahah from factorio?
05:13<@peter1138>i usually look at reviews
05:13<@peter1138>then ignore them, buy the game, install it, then never play it.
05:13<@peter1138>stupid humble bundles
05:14<Wolf01>^
05:15<Wolf01>I follow also indiegala which used to gift games 2 times a week, now my library is full of those 0.99-1.99€ games which I'll never play
05:16<@peter1138>i think i had a couple of free games years ago but nothing since
05:17<V453000>I usually ignore new games and just reinstall old games again :D
05:20<__ln__>also, congratulations sweden for your 50 years + 1 day of right-hand side traffic
05:21<__ln__>though i don't see any swedes around here
05:31<Wolf01>Meh, I can't have friends in township... they use android/ios
05:31<andythenorth>I have township on the mac
05:31<andythenorth>kids play it, not me
05:32<andythenorth>it’s cute, but eh
05:32<Wolf01>Yes
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06:11<@peter1138>it's 11:11. why am i starving?
06:12<andythenorth>because you haven’t had manchego yet
06:12<Wolf01>It's 12:12 here
06:12<@peter1138>that's it
06:12<Wolf01>Lol -> [12:12:12] <Wolf01> It's 12:12 here
06:12<@peter1138>it's lunch time
06:12<Wolf01>1 hour 'til lunch
06:13<__ln__>13:13 here
06:13<andythenorth>time just don’t stop
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06:31<andythenorth>Wolf01: shall we try and fix NRT merge? o_O
06:31<Wolf01>Let's try it
06:31<Wolf01>Sync master first
06:32<andythenorth>ok
06:33<andythenorth>pushed that
06:33<andythenorth>there’s one lang conflict
06:33<andythenorth>one pathfinder
06:33<andythenorth>one saveload
06:33*andythenorth can’t read dutch
06:34*andythenorth is scared of the other two :P
06:39<Wolf01>"HEAD is now at bad0212" <- it's BAD! XD
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06:41<Wolf01>Mmmh, it's still saying that it can't merge because uncommitted changes... no changes, already reset --hard and still the error
06:41<__ln__>git on windows?
06:41<Wolf01>Yes
06:42<__ln__>try: echo '* binary' > .gitattributes ; git checkout .
06:44<Wolf01>And?
06:46<__ln__>that's it, problem solved if all went well
06:46<Wolf01>binary' is not a valid attribute name: .gitattributes:1
06:48<__ln__>odd
06:48<Wolf01>Eh, echo echoes all
06:49<Wolf01>Removed the ' and worked (I executed the commands one by onw)
06:49<Wolf01>*one
06:49<__ln__>err, no you don't want to remove the quotes, as we want a literal * in the file, not a list of files.
06:50<Wolf01>I created the .gitattributes by hand
06:51<__ln__>its contents should be "* binary" without the quotes
06:51<Wolf01>Yes
06:52<Wolf01>That's what I wrote in it
06:52<Wolf01>echo 'stuff' > file writes 'stuff' into the file
06:54<__ln__>indeed
06:54<Wolf01>I can't understand the conflict diff... if only it tells me where it conflicts and not all the changes
06:59<Wolf01>Oh found it, the file map didn't show the right colour for conflicts
07:00<Wolf01>Stupid conflict... it's because it diffs between half of the top line and half of the bottom line, and the bottom line changed
07:01<LordAro>there's usually a way you can tell it to not care so much
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07:04<nekomaster>Hello everyone
07:07<andythenorth>lo nekomaster
07:07<nekomaster>I'm having a weird issue with my Belgian Train Set project :/
07:07<nekomaster>Nothing appears unless NuTracks is loaded
07:08<andythenorth>railtypes eh
07:08<nekomaster>I only have 4 wagons right now but the MU Wagons dont appear even though they're set for "RAIL"
07:09<nekomaster>and I set MTRO type in the Railtypes.pnml to default to ELRL if no 3rd rail or metro track is available
07:14<nekomaster>I never had this issue with my NARS Add-on set when I started making it with 2cc Trains code
07:14<andythenorth>got an engine for the wagons?
07:14<nekomaster>Not right now
07:17<Wolf01>I think $friend will come soon to ask for a solution for the grf scanning problem
07:17<nekomaster>GRF scanning problem?
07:18<Wolf01>Yes, the scan ottd does at the start
07:18<nekomaster>Yeah, and t heres an issue?
07:19<Wolf01>Yes
07:19<Wolf01>The game hangs on it
07:19<Wolf01>No big grf
07:19<Wolf01>It just hangs
07:19<nekomaster>I duno if I've had that issue before
07:20<nekomaster>On slower computers though it does seem to hang for me if it can't find a bunch of GRF's already setup in a Preset
07:22<Wolf01>andythenorth: it was the easiest conflict merge I ever found...
07:22<Wolf01>With tortoiseSVN it should have merged automatically
07:24<V453000>automating 1 minute task for the last 1.5 hour
07:24<V453000>efficiency
07:29<Wolf01>Mmmh, something is broken in saveload
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07:36<Wolf01>Oh, that doesn't matter, even forcing the subtype it still throws the error
07:37<Wolf01>A nice division by 0 when trying to create an electric spark effect
07:37<andythenorth>:)
07:37<Wolf01>I thought it was because the vehicle was of the wrong type
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07:43<Wolf01>Need frosch for fix
07:44<nekomaster>Ok, so not only do the MU/Metro Wagons not appear without NuTracks, but my first steam engine doesnt appear at all (even though the compiler had no issues)
07:46<nekomaster>I have no idea why nothing works
07:51<Wolf01>I can't understand why a vehicle has 0 max speed
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07:52<andythenorth>effect vehicles?
07:52<andythenorth>don’t move?
07:54<Wolf01>I think the roadsubtype compatibility is set wrong on load
07:55<eekee>is there a way to have snow-capped mountains with temperate grass? 'smooth snow transition' grf claims to set arctic grass to temperate if you set a parameter, but it's unclear and setting the first parameter to '1' doesn't do it
07:56<Wolf01>It puts temperate grass on arctic
07:56<andythenorth>there is a grf for Alpine climate
07:56<andythenorth>but it doesn’t work with lots of things
07:56<andythenorth>lots / some
07:56<nekomaster>OpenGFX landscape also has an alpine setting
07:56<andythenorth>quite fun though, farms close in winter in Alpine
07:57<eekee>oh nice :)
07:57<nekomaster>you can also set the Snowline for winter and summer in OpenGFX
07:57<nekomaster>I tend to have it set to the lowest it will go for Winter to simulate a Canadian winter
07:58<nekomaster>during the Summer though only really tall stuff has snow
07:58<nekomaster>Like the Rocky Mountains
07:58<eekee>ohhh
07:58<nekomaster>Also I'm still having an issue with my Steam engine not appearing at all
08:03<eekee>i'm more tired than i thought -- i'm trying to debug my life, things are wierd at the mo, lol
08:05<nekomaster>I have the Steam engine set for RAIL and Rail is defined in the railtypetable.pnml, but its not appearing ingame
08:05<nekomaster>its suppose to appear in 1835 and its 2001 in game
08:06<eekee>when is it supposed to disappear?
08:07<nekomaster>40 years after 1835, but I have "Vehicles never expire" on
08:07<eekee>did you try the 'resetengines' command?
08:07<nekomaster>yeah, I set the game to 1840 and nothing still
08:07<eekee>ah :/
08:08<eekee>is the rail type case sensitive?
08:08<nekomaster>yes
08:08<nekomaster>RAIL
08:08<nekomaster>RAIL refers to the original default RAIL
08:08<eekee>ah cool
08:08<eekee>i'm out of guesses
08:09<nekomaster>This is something I imagine I'm going to need help from a NML Coder that knows how to code a trainset
08:09<nekomaster>this never happened to me before like with my NARS Add-on Set 2cc
08:10<eekee>wierd yeah
08:12<andythenorth>nekomaster: got a railtype table in the grf?
08:12<nekomaster>yes
08:12*andythenorth just guessing stuff
08:12<andythenorth>dunno
08:12<nekomaster>it came with the 2cc Trains code
08:12*andythenorth back to work
08:15<V453000>br br br /
08:15<V453000><>
08:15<nekomaster>what?
08:15<V453000>slugs
08:16<andythenorth>yes
08:16<V453000>excellent
08:16<V453000>easy agreement
08:16<V453000>iz
08:17<nekomaster>maybe someone can look at my code and see whats screwing up my Special wagons and my only Steam Engine
08:17<nekomaster>https://www.dropbox.com/sh/poqdkt0ygi3fmci/AADvVyEyXU4tk7TIm3IlMgK6a?dl=0
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08:41<Wolf01>Mmmh, why does VEH_ROAD has gcache.cache_max_speed in one point and gcache_cached_max_track_speed in another point?
08:41<Wolf01>Both are instances of RoadVehicle
08:42<@peter1138>one is the vehicle's max speed and the other is tile-based max speed?
08:43<Wolf01>Ok
08:43<@peter1138>guessing
08:43<Wolf01>Could be, then the problem is in the tile and not in the vehicle
08:43<Wolf01>But both show the right max speed
08:44<Wolf01>And I get 0 when I need it as divisor
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08:52<Wolf01>Ahahah I disconnected an articulated tram
08:52<V453000>nice
08:53<Wolf01>Ok, I could guess what it happened, the second part of the tram has max speed of 0 but tried to create an electric spark effect
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08:54<Wolf01>Because setting the cached max speed didn't crash on effect but the rear part started to run faster than the front part
08:54<Wolf01>So the front part recalculated the real max speed, the back part didn't
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08:56<_maddy>is it possible to change newgrf settings while game is already running?
08:56<andythenorth>not reliably
08:56<_maddy>tell me the unreliable way
08:57<andythenorth>https://wiki.openttd.org/NewGRF_Debugging
08:57<andythenorth>if you do that, you don’t get any support ;)
08:57<andythenorth>also it *does* crash a lot
08:57<Wolf01>Also, why if I disable "full detail" it still trying to create the spark effect?
08:57<andythenorth>forums posters will say “I do it all the time and it’s fine"
08:57<andythenorth>but I do it all the time, and I crash the game a lot
08:57<andythenorth>Wolf01: full detail is just fences + animated blitter
08:58<Wolf01>Also full animation
08:58<andythenorth>ah, no they’re two separate things
08:58<andythenorth>and I was wrong
08:58<Wolf01>I disabled all and still get that stuff
08:58<andythenorth>full detail is just fences no?
08:58<andythenorth>and full animation is animated blitter
08:59<andythenorth>docs will know :P
08:59<Wolf01>Useless setting
08:59<Wolf01>I'll move all the separate things to Extended transparency toolbar
08:59<Wolf01>You do the icons
09:00<andythenorth>full detail is daft
09:00<andythenorth>full animation is very useful, at least while the blitter is still shafted
09:00<Wolf01>Yes, that could stay
09:00<_maddy>andythenorth: thanks, it seems to work, and didn't crash.. just needed to change one setting, I would have had to restart anyway otherwise
09:01<andythenorth>Wolf01: the blitter might get fixed :P
09:01<andythenorth>https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6469
09:01<Wolf01>Nice
09:02<V453000>I dare repeat the most glaring issue: gui switch between 8bpp and 32bpp
09:02<Wolf01>Now... why the rear part doesn't get the right values is a mistery
09:03*andythenorth considers starting a Patch Pack
09:03<andythenorth>AndyPatch
09:04<Wolf01>Yes
09:05*Wolf01 goes out for a walk
09:34<LordAro>andythenorth: AndyThePatch
09:34<V453000>=D
09:35<V453000>that's going to be horrible
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09:44<eekee>i've gone off 32bpp for ottd
09:44<andythenorth>I never got on
09:44<eekee>:)
09:45<@peter1138>we should remove it
09:46<@peter1138>and 2x/4x zoom
09:46<andythenorth>you won’t though :)
09:46<eekee>btw, can a grf add road types? i'm thinking of rough tracks suitable for tractors or, say, cattle droves, but not busses
09:46<andythenorth>MinimalOpenTTD
09:46<eekee>extra zoom is vital to me :D
09:47<andythenorth>peter1138: I can’t convince anybody to do 1-in, 1-out on features :P
09:47<V453000>if you remove x4 and 32bpp after I have been working on it for 4 years, there will be blood XD
09:47<eekee>hahaha i'm sure
09:48<V453000>and it might also save my sanity
09:48<eekee>i kinda know the feeling. i've had to drop 90% of my coding ambitions for the sake of my sanity
09:50<V453000>I cut down a lot and progress slower than I would like, but progress. And that's what's counts eventually :)
09:50<eekee>yeah :)
09:51<@peter1138>i should revisit terrain generation
09:51<eekee>could be fun ^.^
09:51<@peter1138>make variety work properly f.e.
09:53<andythenorth>peter1138: even :P http://bugs.openttd.org/task/6337
09:54<eekee>nothing to do except sit & watch the sailing ships go by while i wait for the money to build up. i accidentally picked just the right starting conditions for a game in my very tired state lol
09:55<@peter1138>what year?
09:55<eekee>1850
09:55<@peter1138>nice
09:56<eekee>ty
10:05<V453000>that would be incredible peter1138
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10:10<andythenorth>:o
10:10<andythenorth>why is Steam client so bad
10:11<@peter1138>they're too busy working on HL3 to fix it
10:15<@peter1138>like i'm too busy playing minecraft to fix ottd
10:20<eekee>i've been thinking for weeks, i could start looking at ottd's code, but i'm too busy playing it :)
10:22<@peter1138>don't
10:22<@peter1138>you'll stop enjoying it
10:23<andythenorth>errr
10:24<andythenorth>why does Steam want to register with assistive devices control?
10:24*andythenorth gives up
10:26<eekee>peter1138: :)
10:30<@peter1138>andythenorth, maybe big picture mode
10:31<andythenorth>it started crashing
10:31<andythenorth>I don’t want to play Euro Truck Simulator enough to figure that out :P
10:33<@peter1138>ETS2 is better
10:36<andythenorth>actually that’s what I was trying
10:36<andythenorth>crashy
10:36<andythenorth>ETS 1 is a bit fuzzy
10:43<Alkel_U3>\Want to drive a truck? No better game than Big Rigs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6DtVHqyYts
10:44<crem>If only you could drive a truck in openttd...
10:45<@peter1138>50 second intro... what is this
10:47<V453000>omg not this retard again
10:50<Alkel_U3>I hope that was addressing A. V. Nerd and not me :P
10:52<eekee>erf... how do you keep a town sweet without any road vehicles? just pick up any cargo within its area?
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10:53<Cadadadry>hi folks
10:54<Alkel_U3>iirc you need 5 active stations of any kind for maximum positive effect on the city
10:54<Alkel_U3>hello
10:54<Cadadadry>wishing to try and play cooperation, who's in ?
10:55<eekee>Alkel_U3: interesting, ty
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10:56<Cadadadry>Are you guys always playing solo, or not playing any more ?
10:57<Alkel_U3>eekee: that's off the top of my had, mind you. Last time I used information like that was when I played on Luukland servers and that is a few years ago and I don't guarantee it to be correct :-)
10:57<@peter1138>i liked playing casual coop
10:58<Alkel_U3>yeah, but solo is less time restricted :-)
10:58<eekee>Alkel_U3: ok :D i just want to build something to pick up my rating after i destroy all the trees lol. i built 2 1x1 train stations
10:58<eekee>i'm a soloist
10:58<Cadadadry>sure, but rewarding less pleasure too AFAIK
10:58<@peter1138>build something before your destroy them ;p
10:59<Alkel_U3>eekee: I hope you have a newgrf stations with wooden platforms so you can reuse those poor trees :P
10:59<eekee>:D
10:59<eekee>i have actually, but the towns don't care lol
11:00<eekee>peter1138: that's what i do. usually build bus or tram
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11:04<Cadadadry>Where can I find a list of newgrf compatible with each other ?
11:05<Cadadadry>or a list of unusual not compatible newgrf's ?
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11:05<andythenorth>Cadadadry: there’s no list like that
11:05<@Alberth>o/
11:05<andythenorth>there is a nice list in Wiki
11:05<andythenorth>lo Alberth
11:06<andythenorth>https://wiki.openttd.org/NewGRF_List
11:06<Cadadadry>cheers andy :)
11:07<andythenorth>broadly, compatibility only arises for
11:07<andythenorth>(1) old grfs that do things in outdated ways
11:07<andythenorth>(2) industry grfs
11:07<andythenorth>(3) house grfs
11:08<andythenorth>most vehicle sets compatibility is zero problem
11:08<andythenorth>although you might need to match up railtypes grfs with train grfs
11:08<@Alberth>except for artistic clashes :p
11:08<andythenorth>[shrug]
11:08<andythenorth>look at all my terrible fonts :)
11:08<andythenorth>:P
11:08<andythenorth>newgrf is pretty similar to fonts
11:09<eekee>firs will tell you if a grf clashes with it
11:10<eekee>not many do
11:10<@Alberth>often :)
11:10<Cadadadry>what is firs ?
11:11<andythenorth>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/releases/LATEST/docs/html/get_started.html
11:11<@Alberth>oh dear :)
11:11<Cadadadry>I've been DLing a lot of newgrf's a few days ago, selected all starting with "UK" and played a game that way... But I'm wondering what I can choose next to add...?
11:12<andythenorth>so many choices :)
11:12<@Alberth>start with a few, so you can better understand what each grf does
11:13<V453000>download 65 of them and file a bug report
11:13<eekee>firs is firs industry replacement set. gives quite a different feel to the game
11:13<V453000>specifically mention andythenorth and everything being his fault
11:13<Cadadadry>just added tramways and buffers last night... Waiting for the year (?) to see tramways getting available...
11:13<V453000>win prizes
11:13<@Alberth>:O
11:14<eekee>Cadadadry: did you add a tram grf too?
11:14<Cadadadry>I guess so, I can check if you want
11:15<Cadadadry>btw I always start game in 1830 :D
11:15<crem>Btw is there a pigeon newgrf for mail transport?
11:15<andythenorth>such trams http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/road-hog/releases/LATEST/docs/html/road_vehicles.html
11:15<Cadadadry>lol
11:15<eekee>hehe crem! i think one could be made
11:15<Cadadadry>I know one pigeon named "e_"
11:16<crem>Maybe if you treat them as airplanes which need airport...
11:16<crem>then it should be easy
11:16<eekee>crem: oh yeah
11:17<@Alberth>default airports exist from 1960 :)
11:17<Cadadadry>thx andy :)
11:19<eekee>i mostly like egrvts, but its biggest passenger trams get too small and too slow-loading late in the game. i've taken to loading an old 2cc tram set and 'long vehicles v4 (2008)'
11:22<_dp_>eekee, Alkel_U3, 5 stations limit is for town growth, for authority rating it's the more the merrier
11:22<_dp_>on btpro people sometimes do like 20+ stations to get rating to 1000 rly fast
11:22<eekee>_dp_: sweet, thanks!
11:23<_dp_>eekee, just keep in mind they have to be active stations (1 load/unload in 50 days), inactive ones hurt rating
11:24<_dp_>small towns sometimes don't provide enough passengers to sustain 20 active stations
11:24<eekee>_dp_: yeah, i saw inactive ones hurt rating
11:24<eekee>hehehe indeed not
11:24<Alkel_U3>_dp_: interesting, I didn't know that was different
11:24<eekee>'the more the merrier' explains why i can't seem to do wrong by big towns
11:26<Alkel_U3>"sure you can reshape the city center's hill into a crater so long as you keep those 100+ tram stops" :-)
11:27<_dp_>Alkel_U3, and you don't even need those stops if you want to reshape it into a forest :p
11:27<Alkel_U3>_dp_: forest is not usually the goal in TT :P
11:27<eekee>Alkel_U3: ahahhaha yeah
11:28<eekee>oh yeah coz planting trees helps
11:28<_dp_>Alkel_U3, I'm starting to doubt that looking at authorities behavior in openttd
11:28<Alkel_U3>I bet if people could they'd just put concrete slabs on every tile possible :D
11:29<Alkel_U3>yeah, but that's only a tool to allow more destruction
11:29<eekee>i wouldn't
11:34<@peter1138>TLS in Linux kernel 4.13. What could go wrong?
11:39<milek7>nothing?
11:40<@peter1138>probably
11:43<eekee>already i've had linux and freebsd start acting up after visiting web pages with microsoft adverts -- not joking
11:44<andythenorth>get some tinfoil :)
11:44<andythenorth>that will help
11:44<eekee>i'm not messing about
11:45<andythenorth>it’s a nice trolling attempt :)
11:46<andythenorth>well played
11:48<eekee>you're the one who's trolling. i tried believing all this sort of talk was just paranoia, but there's just way too much evidence for all the major corporations in computing just being incredibly nasty by normal standards.
11:48<andythenorth>ok let’s take the claim seriously
11:48<andythenorth>1. do you have Flash player enabled?
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11:51<eekee>on freebsd, no, but given the rotten quality of web standards and sloppy attitude toward security considerations ("progress" trumps security every time), whether or not flash is installed is hardly relevant any more
11:52<andythenorth>do you work in the industry?
11:52<eekee>associated with some who do, and who take quality seriously, for a long time
11:52<andythenorth>coding something like the network stack, browsers, or web software?
11:54<_dp_>andythenorth, are you trying to say there is no way to hack a browser or what? :p
11:55<andythenorth>I’m trying to connect ‘microsoft adverts’ with ‘linux and freebsd start acting up’
11:55<andythenorth>there are so many potential vectors
11:55<andythenorth>but are many of them plausible?
11:55<eekee>one of my friends is a kernel dev, another worked his way up through sysadmin jobs (including web shops) to administer some of the top supercomputers in the world,
11:56<eekee>another works in telecom but 15-20 years ago he was the bad guy and he says he knew nothing at the time; just downloaded stuff and got into linux kernels everywhere lol
11:56<eekee>sounds like he was an amateur but i didn't want to ask too much
11:56<_dp_>andythenorth, well, techically it is possible to write an virus that infects via ads and does bad stuff to system
11:57<andythenorth>yes
11:57<_dp_>andythenorth, how plausible is it that's a different question
11:57<andythenorth>well, usually malware, not virus
11:57<eekee>ayup, malware
11:57<andythenorth>if these microsoft ads included ‘download a binary and put in your sudo password'
11:57<andythenorth>then I can believe it
11:58<eekee>lol no
11:59<eekee>it was primarily the graphics of my linux & freebsd machines which was affected; it got very slow for no clear reason. doesn't the web now include pretty-much direct access to load shader programs?
12:00<andythenorth>webgl or so?
12:00<eekee>yeah
12:00<andythenorth>DoS your machine?
12:00<eekee>microsoft's motive here would be just to make competing 'desktop' systems look bad
12:00<andythenorth>plausible
12:00<andythenorth>was it Firefox?
12:00<eekee>yeah
12:01<andythenorth>[shrug]
12:01<andythenorth>hi Firefox
12:01<andythenorth>bye bye memory
12:01<_dp_>hm, and now my machine got slow too...
12:01<eekee>hehe
12:01<_dp_>definitely a virus :p
12:01<andythenorth>Firefox will sit and spin my fans all day long
12:01<andythenorth>just from being logged into Twitter in a single window
12:01<andythenorth>[shrug]
12:01<eekee>oh twitter is nasty!
12:01<eekee>i mean because they're stupid
12:02<andythenorth>in fact, OpenTTD Coop devzone will drain my battery if I leave it in a tab
12:02<andythenorth>so eh
12:02<andythenorth>must be evil
12:02<eekee>they tried to push loads of stuff into the browser after slowing down their servers with loads of ruby nonsense
12:03*andythenorth is glad to have a nice armchair
12:03<andythenorth>for this expertise
12:03<eekee>:D
12:04<_dp_>didn't twitter go back to server-side rendering already?
12:04<eekee>maybe, it did seem to get faster a few months ago
12:04<_dp_>that's probably not how is it called but whatever :p
12:04<eekee>maybe more than a few months, i got fed up with keeping up
12:04<andythenorth>_dp_: I think their single-page app fell down in a pile of client performance problems
12:04<_dp_>nah, it was more like few years ago
12:04<andythenorth>but I’m only guessing
12:04<andythenorth>they probably made a video or something
12:05<_dp_>yeah I remember seeing a post about it
12:05<eekee>i know they implemented avatars as web fonts. ?.?
12:07<eekee>computing's one big stinking pile of underhandedness and "what could go wrong", as far as i'm concerned. openttd lol is about the sanest software i interact with any more
12:07<eekee>i even went over to the dark side; got win10 put on my pc lol
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12:08<eekee>oh there's plan 9 too, that's from another planet, but i don't use it much any more
12:09*_dp_ rly hope openttd isn't the sanest software on my pc :p
12:10<eekee>hahaha
12:13<eekee>it's a game, and a free one at that, but i think it's had a lot more sense and understanding put into it than... certainly any free tablet game
12:13<andythenorth>I dispute that
12:13<andythenorth>I’ve read the code
12:13*andythenorth bbl
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12:17<eekee>i'm still impressed by multiple viewports; it seems nobody even bothers implementing anything half as smart as that any more. also adjusting something in one window and seeing it change in others; that's like, come & gone.
12:17<eekee>not that there's much call for these on small tablet screens
12:18<_dp_>idk multiple viewports seem pretty useless to me
12:19<_dp_>except mb for watching multiple companies
12:19<_dp_>but that's not even in vanilla
12:21<eekee>oh i mean the vehicle windows & everything. the other day i was placing signs in the newspaper popups; all the views just work the same!
12:23<eekee>i was also using industry windows for oil rigs to add ships as needed while working on something else. kinda got a bit hectic though.
12:29<@Alberth>it also fails every now and then, getting newspapers about "First train arrives Foo station", and seeing a train driving on regular tracks
12:30<Wolf01> <eekee> btw, can a grf add road types? i'm thinking of rough tracks suitable for tractors or, say, cattle droves, but not busses <- sorry for the delay: yes, a grf could add road types, but we must remove shiops and canals
12:30<Wolf01>Ships too
12:31<eekee>ohhhh! what's the link?
12:31<Wolf01>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=75637&sid=242e2ab761139f4a07e69ecbd500e3d5
12:31<@Alberth>/me wonders what NoShips will bring
12:32<@peter1138>no ships
12:33<Wolf01>It's NotShips BTW
12:33*eekee read read
12:34<eekee>ooh OFFR
12:36<Wolf01>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=76017 also
12:36<Wolf01>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=75986 also
12:40<eekee>ty for links :)
12:43<@peter1138>git pull woo
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12:56<andythenorth>I’ve already made NoShips
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13:12<eekee>are there plans/hopes/dreams for new ship code?
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13:23<Wolf01>eekee: yes, to remove ships
13:27<eekee>no code != new code :)
13:27<Wolf01>It's refactoring, purge things which don't work
13:28<eekee>what doesn't work about ships?
13:28<Wolf01>Ships
13:28<eekee>i'm confused. XD i've successfully used ships in my last 5 games
13:29<Wolf01>But they don't work, 10000000 ships on one tile, no collisions, shitty performance with pathfinding
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13:31<Wolf01>Just ask andythenorth and he will tell you better why ships don't work
13:31<eekee>no collisions is a bit sad, but so are 45deg bends :)
13:31<eekee>i'll ask him about it sooner or later
13:33<@peter1138>it was andythenorth looking at ship path reservation, no?
13:33<@peter1138>or wolf
13:33<Wolf01>Samu
13:33<@peter1138>can't remember now :S
13:33<@peter1138>ohhh
13:33<@peter1138>samu
13:33<andythenorth>samu
13:34<@peter1138>who is not here
13:34<Wolf01>Samu
13:34<@peter1138>he was barking up the wrong tree though ;D
13:34<Wolf01>Yes
13:34<andythenorth>https://bugs.openttd.org/index.php?string=&project=1&search_name=&type%5B%5D=&sev%5B%5D=&pri%5B%5D=&due%5B%5D=&reported%5B%5D=&cat%5B%5D=&status%5B%5D=open&percent%5B%5D=&opened=samu
13:34<_dp_>careful, don't accidentally summon him :p
13:34<@peter1138>why not?
13:35<Wolf01>The only bad part about it is that he wanted to continue straight on his own idea, even after discussing it here
13:35<Wolf01>*him
13:35<eekee>hmm
13:36<Wolf01>Like the wagon running cost based on length of the train and type of engine to try to fix the constant cost of the base game...
13:36<@peter1138>heh
13:37<Wolf01>And once you set up a train, you have another different constant
13:37<eekee>wat lol
13:37<Wolf01>Also pointless, as you can do it right now with a grf
13:38<eekee>oh he's one of those
13:39<Wolf01>I would like to have an empty vanilla game and implement everything as newgrf: vehicles, infrastructures, algorythms
13:39<eekee>yeah...
13:40<@peter1138>newgrf terrain generation?
13:40<andythenorth>maybe
13:40<eekee>haha
13:40<andythenorth>why?
13:40<eekee>that could be very cool
13:40<andythenorth>is it that much slower? :P
13:40<Wolf01>If you are able to put terragenesis on a grf, why not?
13:40<andythenorth>it’s just some tile loop bollocks, no?
13:40<eekee>lunar terrain generator grf :D
13:40<Wolf01>But you should be able to set different terragenesis rules with a grf
13:41<Wolf01>As far as I've read the code, you can already define (they are hardcoded) the cut off for desert and arctic mountains
13:41<eekee>now imagining a grf handling ship collisions XD
13:42<Wolf01>Just move them to a grf, voilà: different desert, different mountains
13:42<@peter1138>when i last went through the tgp code i found the perlin method was a bit shitty
13:42<@peter1138>but i don't remember the details :(
13:42<Wolf01>IIRC it made stripes around all the map and other artifacts
13:42<andythenorth>it does some pointless stuff IIRC
13:43<eekee>tgp? terragenesis?
13:43<@peter1138>it's non standard but IS much faster than regular perlin
13:43<@peter1138>yeah
13:43<Wolf01>TGP terragenesis perlin noise
13:43<eekee>ah :)
13:43<@peter1138>4096x4096 takes minutes to generate with unoptimised perlin
13:44<eekee>oh dear
13:44<andythenorth>why is 4096x4096?
13:44<eekee>is 1024x1024 more reasonable? that's the largest size at which i find save time reasonable anyway
13:44<andythenorth>2048x2048 would have been enough
13:44<andythenorth>but we had to go to 11 eh
13:45<Wolf01>BTW, I would like to give it a try, I don't think that grf is the right way, but some other scripting or even just yaml/json to set values could be the way
13:45<eekee>there's some unexpected straightness & Vs in my current map, but it's non-terrible
13:45<eekee>so long as i can download it from bananas, i don't care what format it's in ;)
13:46<_dp_>gs can mapgen a bit, but not terragen afaik
13:46<_dp_>and newgrf sucks :p
13:46<Wolf01>You can already download a lot of stuff from bananas
13:46<Wolf01>Yeah, pointless to extend grf for something different than graphics
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13:48<eekee>sweet
13:49<_dp_>hmmm, can gs write files? if so it could generate png with heightmap and start new game with it xD
13:50<@peter1138>wolf, NoTGP?
13:50<Wolf01>Nah, NotHardcodedSettings
13:50<Wolf01>Notconstants
13:51<@peter1138>changing the settings doesn't really add much
13:51<Wolf01>NotMagicNumbers
13:51<Wolf01>NotExternalizeTheCode
13:53*peter1138 accidentally fires up minecraft instead
13:54<Wolf01>For example, take tgp.cpp, the HeightMapSineTransform(height_t h_min, height_t h_max)
13:54<andythenorth>NotSteve
13:55<Wolf01>There is the fheight variable which could be changed to have different effect on TGP
13:55<@peter1138>annoying problem with landscape generation is the lack of cliffs
13:55<@peter1138>big height differentials are always smoothed out
13:55<eekee>haha! i haven't thought about that since '05, i think
13:59<eekee>i can't imagine playing ottd without ships. i'm fine without canals, and i do at times replace ships with trains, but...
13:59<Wolf01>A problem with big height differences is that terrain in the game is smooth, you can't have discontinuous points, a 64 levels tall mountain fills a 256^2 map
14:00<@peter1138>basically the same issue
14:00<eekee>oh yes! i was just thinking about the mountain height issue as i started a game today, but didn't think of cliffs
14:01<Wolf01>With more slopes (0.5x, 1x, 2x and even vertical ones) you could fix that problem, but then you wouldn't be able to see what you are building on the back of a mountain and you will need map rotation
14:02<@peter1138>or transparency
14:02<Wolf01>And I wouldn't speak for the changes needed to handle different levels
14:02<eekee>yeah :)
14:02<eekee>haha
14:02<eekee>what happened to that other game? "the game openttd devs wanted to make" or something
14:02<_dp_>even current mountains are pain in the ass to build on, adding anything more steeper is basically locking off parts of the map
14:03<Wolf01>Yeah, you can use transparency, cut the terrain over some height
14:03<Wolf01>But then you can just go play locomotion
14:03<eekee>yeah
14:03<_dp_>like, how are you even going to do bridges with 2 tile height difference on the ends?
14:04<Wolf01>Fully flexible terrain, station on bridges, bridges over bridges, different curve radius
14:04<eekee>i don't think bridges are relevant
14:04<Wolf01>They are
14:04<eekee>you can already put a bridge end on a slope with 2 tile height difference
14:04<Wolf01>Nope, 1 tile max
14:05<eekee>now i have to start the game again XD
14:05<Wolf01>Ok, there's the double foundation, but only on certain tiles
14:06<Wolf01>I've had a talk with eddi for a fully flexible layered layout which could allow building bridges like on locomotion and place signals and stations on them, that would be really cool... too bad is almost impossible to tell what are you building from a single pov
14:08<eekee>_dp_: is this not what you meant by '2 tile height difference'? http://picpaste.com/Murphy___Co.__1862-01-17.png
14:09<Wolf01>That's an edge case
14:09<eekee>?.?
14:09<_dp_>eekee, no, I meant difference of bridge ends, that's just 0 on your picture
14:10<eekee>_dp_: right, yeah, i wouldn't expect that to change
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14:10<Wolf01>Quak
14:10<Wolf01>Need you
14:10<Wolf01>Trams borked in NRT
14:11<Wolf01>Electric sparks make game crash on division by 0 when loading a savegame
14:12<Wolf01>Seem that articulated parts lose the cached_max_track_speed value when reloading
14:14<eekee>haha i just had a mad idea re. ships. (saying it now because i'll have to go for a bit soon.) how about making WETrails (as in NUTS) buildable on water?
14:14<andythenorth>canal cheat
14:14<eekee>:D
14:14<eekee>they could go on land & water
14:15<andythenorth>it’s been done
14:15<eekee>really?
14:15<andythenorth>yup
14:15<Wolf01>Been there, done that
14:15<V453000>plus points for considering NUTS
14:15<eekee>mm... imo if you're going to remove ships, this should be mainline code
14:16<V453000>nobody's going to remove shits
14:16<Wolf01>I would hardcode a check to disable wetrails from NUTS, NRT is the way to go
14:16<eekee>V453000: i use it all the time now :)
14:16<Wolf01>:D
14:16<andythenorth>can build trains on water https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1160891#p1160891
14:16<V453000>sick
14:16<Wolf01><3 V
14:16<V453000>I am so looking forward to my next grf
14:16<V453000>but need to stabilize this shit first :D
14:17<V453000>treez
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14:17<Wolf01>Wait for NRT, I think you can do countless things by abusing it
14:17<V453000>NRT is just road vehicles, no?
14:17<Wolf01>Yes
14:17<eekee>NRT + roads on water would be better in some ways
14:18<V453000>well I can't compose a RV out of segments (engine + wagons)
14:18<Wolf01>But you can do same shit as wetrails and pipes without the hassle of signals
14:18<V453000>heh
14:18<V453000>no :P
14:18<eekee>yeah lack of signals esp.
14:18<Wolf01>Also, bidirectional on same tile
14:18<eekee>otoh signals are sometimes great
14:19<eekee>yes!!
14:19<eekee>been using road tunnels -- <3 hovertrucks btw :)
14:19<Wolf01>I'm waiting for NRT to make a Venice like city and use boats instead of buses
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14:20<eekee>sweet
14:20<V453000>signals are always great, they are the core of why trains are so awesome and timeless to play with
14:20<Wolf01>And in the end: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/0c/d5/96/0cd59612344c3df1e4606a91441d5fa7.jpg
14:20<eekee>hehe
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14:41<Wolf01>https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/am2W00y_700b.jpg ahaha
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14:42<eekee>hahaha!
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14:51<V453000>I'm starting to hate the amount of trees there is :D
14:53<eekee>on the map or in the code?
14:53<eekee>s/map/terrain/
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14:55<andythenorth>V453000: there are a lot of variants
14:55<andythenorth>growth stages
14:55<andythenorth>dead ones :P
14:55<V453000>yes
14:55<eekee>oh those :)
14:55<V453000>exactly
14:56<V453000>434 sprites
14:56<V453000>._.
14:56<eekee>:o
14:57<andythenorth>iz not much forums
14:57<eekee>the original trees are amongst my favourite features of the game
14:57<andythenorth>V453000: BRIX as base set is going to real mess with FIRS :)
14:57<andythenorth>I reuse base set trees a lot
14:57<V453000>well I wreck them eekee
14:57<eekee>nuuuuuu! hehe
14:57<V453000>I know andy, very aware
14:58<V453000>I will check out how it works with firs and I will re-order the IDs accordingly
14:58<V453000>might even let you choose which ones you want where :P
14:58-!-minisylf is now known as Sylf
14:58<V453000>need to finish thing first
14:59<andythenorth>such finish
15:00*andythenorth needs to stop html-ing
15:00<andythenorth>eyes boggle
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15:04<+glx>hello
15:04<andythenorth>did I do it right or wrong? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6312#comment14756
15:04<andythenorth>lo glx
15:04<V453000>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8590/trees-wip-2.png
15:04<V453000>arctic and incomplete temperate
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15:05<eekee>they look kinda fun
15:06<eekee>blender?
15:06<@peter1138>arcticulated trees
15:06<eekee>oh, yeah
15:06<eekee>hehe
15:06<@peter1138>i like the tree with the red/white circle ;p
15:06<eekee>i can imagine some of them dancing
15:07<eekee>i like the one which looks like it's hugging its own branches
15:07<eekee>lol
15:07<V453000>all of them are hugtrees :)
15:07<V453000>yes blender
15:07<eekee>:D
15:07<V453000>I used 3ds max before but now converted a few years back
15:08<andythenorth>gobsmacking amount of trees
15:08<eekee>bbl, bath time
15:08<V453000>when I realize it's been 2 and a half years since I have been using blender, I can't understand how is BRIX in max still ._.
15:08<V453000>what you see isn't even half andy
15:08<V453000>gobsmacking x2
15:08<V453000>+
15:09<andythenorth>why is airports range?
15:10<V453000>station catchment?
15:10<V453000>range is only in av8 right?
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15:11<andythenorth>I couldn’t find it
15:11<andythenorth>tried a couple of versions of 8, and av9
15:11<V453000>did you try parameters?
15:12<andythenorth>yup
15:12<V453000>wtf
15:12<andythenorth>probably got wrong grf
15:12<V453000>I'm not sure if it's glaringly obvious at the first sight
15:12<andythenorth>I have multiple versions
15:12*andythenorth tries again
15:12<V453000>I don't even remember if it was in the purchase menu
15:12<andythenorth>it’s bollocks feature
15:12<andythenorth>@summon pikka
15:12<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: out of chalk
15:12<V453000>yes
15:12<V453000>:D
15:13<andythenorth>haz wrong http://pikkarail.com/openttd/planes-and-ranges/
15:14<V453000>the progression point is true
15:14<V453000>but visualising it is kind of hard and it just gets annoying
15:15<V453000>just increasing passenger decay rate would probably fix early aircraft being viable for super long ranges
15:15<V453000>also, it will inevitably be stupidly different on 256x512 to 1024x104 or more
15:17<andythenorth>ok found range in AV8 2.x
15:17<V453000>I wonder how much did Pikka manage to replace with his grf
15:17<V453000>landscape rail water etc
15:17<andythenorth>I can see Milsa’s point from FS
15:18<andythenorth>but eh, make orders even more complex just to support one grf?
15:18<V453000>sure if it's nuts :P
15:23<andythenorth>V453000: pikka nearly got to $5k eh
15:24<andythenorth>that’s more than I expected
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15:24<V453000>I don't remember the amount
15:24<andythenorth>https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1512547915/pineapple-graphics-for-openttd
15:24<andythenorth>was looking how much he got done, to answer your Q above :P
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15:25<V453000>:D
15:26*andythenorth bored now
15:26<andythenorth>what shall do?
15:27<V453000>I'm kind of really forcing myself with the trees atm
15:27<V453000>can't give many hints :D
15:27<andythenorth>newgrf trees spec?
15:27<andythenorth>Wolf01: o_O
15:28<Wolf01>Time to do it?
15:28<V453000>I won't do it
15:28<V453000>just saying
15:28<V453000>:D
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15:29<andythenorth>maybe I play games
15:31<Wolf01>I have a 2s ping, 0.4MBps/10Kbps connection today, I can't even open sites during a human lifetime
15:31<V453000>Wolf01: doesn't that help productivity? :P
15:31<Wolf01>Not if you need sites to produce
15:31<V453000>well :)
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15:32<@peter1138>i'm streaming to twitch at ~3.5mbps
15:32<Wolf01>ಥ╭╮ಥ
15:33<@peter1138>i'm a meanine
15:33<@peter1138>...
15:33<@peter1138>i'm a meanie
15:33<V453000>what do you stream, minecraft?
15:33<frosch123>andythenorth: Wolf01: https://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/ButGroundTypes <- finally wrote a first draft for butgroundtypes
15:33<andythenorth>ooh
15:34<Wolf01>Eh, tomorrow I could be able to read it
15:34*andythenorth reads
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15:34<frosch123>possibly intro and gui mockup is interesting
15:34<andythenorth>Wolf01: I’ll print it and post it airmail
15:34<Wolf01>Ok, loaded
15:34<frosch123>rest is boilerplate
15:34<Wolf01>40 seconds to load a text page
15:34<Wolf01>frosch123: could we fix NRT meanwhile?
15:35<frosch123>something new broke?
15:35<Wolf01>Yes
15:35<andythenorth>frosch123: I’m skimming but…reminds me of ‘vehicles can drive on station tiles’ from eons ago
15:35<andythenorth>mart3p had it proposed for ISR somewhere
15:35<Wolf01>Read log since you joined today
15:36<@peter1138>V453000, any old shit
15:36<frosch123>andythenorth: one of the av8 versions has a setting to enable/disable range
15:37<andythenorth>I found one enabled
15:37<andythenorth>i’m a meanie
15:37<V453000>nice
15:37<V453000>ancient shit
15:37<V453000>is openttd old shit? :P
15:38<frosch123>turned slug shit
15:38<Wolf01>frosch123: I tried to merge master in ratt branch and fix conflicts (just 3 conflicts easy to fix) and noticed that eltrams don't seem to work after loading a savegame made with the same version
15:39<@peter1138>hmm could try
15:39<@peter1138>i suspect it's too shit to work with game capture :p
15:39<@peter1138>yup :S
15:40<V453000>nice, made 3 trees today
15:40<V453000>21 shits
15:41<andythenorth>frosch123: consolidating to just one global toolbar button = winning
15:44<Wolf01>I find difficult to read the catenary complementing section, but the rest make sense
15:44<andythenorth>catenary boggles brain
15:45<frosch123>not bridges boggle my brain
15:45<frosch123>*now
15:46<andythenorth>bridges on bridges
15:46<andythenorth>stations on bridges over stations
15:47<frosch123>anyway, i suspect that the road construction toolbar fails to provide space for two dropdowns
15:47<Wolf01>Will groundtypes allow overstructures like walking bridges over the road?
15:47<andythenorth>yair
15:47<andythenorth>wondered
15:47<frosch123>or names must be short :)
15:48<frosch123>Wolf01: yes, via sidewalks stuff
15:48<andythenorth>I can work on that a bit
15:48<andythenorth>not now :P
15:48<andythenorth>so BGT unpicks the combinatorial explosion by exposing controls for combining
15:48<Wolf01>Make dropdowns inline with other buttons?
15:48<frosch123>it should support most what the existing road furniture grfs do, but it restricts stuff to single-tile szie
15:48<Wolf01>Open 2 toolbars like the terraforming tool?
15:48<andythenorth>nobody can pick from 256 choices, but they can pick 1 out of 4, 1 out of 4 again etc
15:49<Wolf01><frosch123> it should support most what the existing road furniture grfs do, but it restricts stuff to single-tile szie <- Grf authors will find a way to abuse that
15:49<Wolf01>But we aren't here to prevent abuses
15:50<andythenorth>just remember, nothing stops you installing comic sans
15:50<andythenorth>or even using it
15:50<andythenorth>standing rule for all content systems
15:50<Wolf01>$friend uses comic sans on phone, and every time he sends me a screenshots he makes my eyes bleed
15:52<Wolf01>Ok, after Reading that
15:52<Wolf01>When we'll start?
15:52<Wolf01>Trash current NRT? Edit it?
15:52<andythenorth>frosch123: wondering if this circumvents ever needing newgrf roadstops
15:53<frosch123>newgrf roadstops would be multi-tile if over-arching roof and stuff
15:53<andythenorth>hmm
15:53<Wolf01>What could be salvaged from NRT?
15:53<andythenorth>multi-tile sounds a bit 2025 to me
15:53<frosch123>Wolf01: it shares a lot with nrt
15:53<andythenorth>unless peter1138 does them
15:54<frosch123>like vehicle and pathfinder stuff
15:54<andythenorth>does depot come from ground or road/tram type?
15:55<frosch123>likely from ground
15:55<andythenorth>makes more sense
15:55<frosch123>but depot, stations, bridges are unclear
15:55<andythenorth>I am reading
15:55<Wolf01>Could we do them later?
15:55<frosch123>groundtype affects the groundsprite in all cases
15:56<andythenorth>so unified tram/RV depots?
15:56<frosch123>for bridges and tunnls it makes sense to have different ground tiles on each end
15:56<andythenorth>it’s just another tile?
15:56<frosch123>but that leaves the bridge surface unefined
15:57<andythenorth>ok UI bothers me
15:57<frosch123>anyway, for a first version i would skip: depot, stations, bridges, tunnels, custom catenary
15:57<andythenorth>+1
15:57<andythenorth>tarpit
15:57<andythenorth>add later
15:57<Wolf01>+1
15:57<andythenorth>if ever
15:57<frosch123>most important imho is to test the ui
15:57<andythenorth>“in which andythenorth has to learn OpenTTD UI code” :|
15:57*Wolf01 could do some working mockups
15:59<frosch123>i wonder what the higher toolbar will cause :) but it would give a foundation to also make the transparency toolbar bigger :p
15:59<andythenorth>does the ground selection clear after choosing one?
15:59<frosch123>the selection window?
15:59<andythenorth>yes
15:59<frosch123>you can open and close it as you like
15:59<frosch123>keep it open or nor
16:00<andythenorth>looks like it risks same problem as station window on my screen :)
16:00<frosch123>it does not need to be open for building and converting
16:00<frosch123>but you can keep it open if you want to convert multiple tiles to different types
16:00<Wolf01>About "Query compatibility with specific road/tramtype: (in nrt-todolist, also useful for railtypes)" : https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=54126
16:01<frosch123>it's also listed for bgt
16:01<frosch123>and i consider just implementing it for railtypes in trunk
16:01*andythenorth wondered
16:02<Wolf01>Could my "check compatibility" branch be useful?
16:02<andythenorth>ok I read this all again to be sure I’ve understood
16:03<frosch123>Wolf01: i do not see the relation with the forum thread
16:03<frosch123>nrt talks about a simple two-sourceline va2 variable
16:03<frosch123>there are some upgrade-rail inconsistencies, for which there is a fs task
16:03<frosch123>no idea why that thread was dug up
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16:09<andythenorth>so
16:09<V453000>played the game
16:09<V453000>it's good
16:10<andythenorth>iz
16:10<andythenorth>frosch123: so every road and tram type has catenary on/off variant?
16:11<andythenorth>is that a 2 label system, or a bit or what?
16:11<andythenorth>I don’t actually care about implementation, but helps me understand
16:12<frosch123>every roadtype either has "same type with/without catenary" or "cannot coexist with tramtype of different catenary choice"
16:12<frosch123>the two roadtypes are separate and link each other via their label
16:14<frosch123>so either you have pairs like ROAD/ELRD, or you have "ELHAUL cannot coexist with RAIL, but only with ELRL"
16:15*andythenorth trying to understand upgrade vs. convert
16:16<frosch123>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1191421#p1191421 <- that is about upgrading
16:16<frosch123>upgrading happens automatic
16:16<frosch123>upgrading should not break stuff
16:16<andythenorth>right
16:16<frosch123>convert is manual and can break stuff
16:16<andythenorth>because it’s all compatible
16:16<andythenorth>ok
16:16<andythenorth>[upgrading all compatible]
16:17<Wolf01>Yes sorry, I linked the whole topic and not the post
16:17<andythenorth>so can I upgrade by overbuilding?
16:17<andythenorth>and convert tool is for converting?
16:18<frosch123>yes, imho overbuilding should upgrade
16:18<frosch123>apparently this does not happen consistently for rail currently
16:18<andythenorth>https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6590
16:18<andythenorth>iirc
16:19<frosch123>yep
16:20<milek7_>hm, patch for more than 15 companies have any changes to be merged?
16:20<milek7_>(maybe with extended tile array to avoid weird bitpacking)
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16:21<andythenorth>BGT nml patch needed eh
16:21<andythenorth>frosch123: how much of this still applies to BGT? https://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/NotRoadTypes#ToDo_list
16:21<frosch123>milek7_: in theory yes, but on my list not before 2027
16:22<frosch123>andythenorth: i think i addressed everything but "independent movement for road and tram"
16:23<andythenorth>is a pony
16:23<frosch123>which i consider the more meh the longer i think about it :)
16:23<andythenorth>I couldn’t care less about it
16:23<V453000>damn playing openttd feels good
16:23<andythenorth>suspension railway is total PITA
16:23<V453000>XD
16:23<andythenorth>I tried it, it clips tunnels, bridges, rail catenary
16:23<eekee>:D
16:23<andythenorth>daft idea
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16:31<andythenorth>so NRT is dead
16:31<andythenorth>basically, a bit boring
16:32<frosch123>noone said the BGT will turn out good, but imho NRT has some big problems
16:32<andythenorth>isn’t the main problem that it’s a bit dull?
16:32<andythenorth>and catenary is a mess
16:33<frosch123>i like the supermob stuff
16:33<andythenorth>FWIW supermop said we should ignore the Docklands grf
16:33<andythenorth>and that all the cobble types etc will use speed limits
16:33<V453000>wot
16:33<V453000>NRT lief
16:33<frosch123>sure, but noone dealt with tram types
16:34<Wolf01>We should listen also to supermod (<- just to rotate that p around some more)
16:34<andythenorth>nah supermoq showed the way
16:34<ic111>Question / request for brainstorming: Which values does the window engine take into account when determining the minimum allowed size of a window, i.e. the size I cannot go below during a resize?
16:34<V453000>do you even supermob
16:34<V453000>XD
16:35<Wolf01>Then you say he will agree to whatever we will come up to?
16:35<ic111>I removed all calls that set width in UpdateWidgetSize --> I could make my timetable window about 15 % smaller, which is not very much
16:35<ic111>I set all SetMinimalSize calls in the window desc to quite low x values ---> Changed nothing
16:36<ic111>What else does it take into account?
16:36<andythenorth>FLAG_NO_LEVEL_CROSSING: moved to groundtype ? o_O
16:37<frosch123>ic111: widget.cpp contains defaults for all widgets
16:37<ic111>does default mean minimum size?
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16:37<frosch123>yes
16:37<frosch123>all widgets have minimum size and fill/resize behaviour
16:38<frosch123>"default" size only exists in window context
16:38<ic111>And do the SetMinimalSize occurrences in the window desc override them? I would assume yes, but...?
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16:39<frosch123>i think the order is 1. widget.cpp default, 2. setminimalsize in tree 3. updatewidegetsize
16:39<andythenorth>frosch123: I guess dropdowns with names for road / tram because you need to see currently selected?
16:40<andythenorth>nbm
16:40<andythenorth>nvm *
16:40*andythenorth thinking out loud
16:40<frosch123>andythenorth: you need to see the selected one, and the assumption is there are only a hand full of them, and they have names instead of previews
16:40<frosch123>while the groundtype selection opens a big window with previews
16:40<andythenorth>I wondered about a menu instead for road/tram selection
16:40<andythenorth>think it sucks
16:40<ic111>Ok, so probably if the window engine calculates an unwanted big minimum size, I want to add additional SetMinimalSize calls to the tree, is this the strategy one uses in that situation?
16:41<frosch123>well, did you figure out which widget causes the big size?
16:41<frosch123>or are you trying to minimise the borders?
16:41<frosch123>ic111: also, there is not just minimalsize, but also padding
16:42<ic111>No, so far I didn´t figure it out.
16:42<andythenorth>hmm
16:42<ic111>Consider the screenshot from yesterday: https://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=199556
16:43<frosch123>andythenorth: since you need to select both groundtype and road/tramtype, i settled for listing the last n used in the menu, instead of all 2048
16:43<frosch123>:p
16:43<andythenorth>I saw that
16:43<andythenorth>it’s nice :)
16:43<ic111>By throwing away calls in UpdateWidgetSize, I now have a window that ends about at the right end of the canal icon in the top line
16:43<ic111>I decreased all explicit SetMinimalSize calls to quite low values
16:44<frosch123>well, isn't the white text the important part?
16:44<ic111>... but maybe there is some widget I don´t explicitely assign a MinimalSize, probably I just have to do a closer look...
16:44<andythenorth>does type dropdown need to list all speed limit, axle weight crap?
16:44<frosch123>andythenorth: speed limit is part of groundtype :p
16:44<andythenorth>wondering if we can just have a picture, not word
16:44<ic111>NoNo, the white text clearly isn´t the problem
16:45<andythenorth>make toolbar even deeper, use tile for ground types
16:45<frosch123>axle weight would still be in the dropdown, but did anyone use that? or did only eddi talk bout it?
16:45<andythenorth>words
16:45<andythenorth>and then a menu for selecting road / tram, which draws them over selected ground type
16:45<ic111>(1) because I am not aware that I still consider it, (2) Because in the running OpenTTD instance I just use for testing, it is much smaller
16:45*andythenorth should mockup
16:46<ic111>... ok, so I´ll do some more code inspection now, thank you for now...
16:46<frosch123>ic111: maybe you also have some EQUALSIZE containers?
16:47<ic111>yes
16:47<ic111> there are some
16:47<frosch123>or widgetselections?
16:48*andythenorth makes ugly mockup
16:48<ic111>yes, also.
16:48<frosch123>andythenorth: i wonder whether there is any visual difference in roadtypes :p
16:48<andythenorth>can we limit displayed chars in dropdown?
16:48<frosch123>it should truncate with "..."
16:48<andythenorth>frosch123: enterprising people will do different lines etc
16:49<andythenorth>wondering about vertical stacked dropdowns
16:49<andythenorth>and some kind of preview of the resulting tile
16:49<frosch123>for preview imho just open the ground selection window
16:50<andythenorth>I was trying to use a preview to save space
16:50<frosch123>but toolbar on its own should be minimal, i though you would be interested in that :p
16:50<andythenorth>don’t have to read words
16:50<andythenorth>words is boring
16:50<andythenorth>well, words are great
16:50<andythenorth>but not in the game
16:50<andythenorth>mostly pictures
16:50<frosch123>skip the cats though
16:50<andythenorth>I think we can make some neat little palette
16:51<andythenorth>just haven’t figured it out yet
16:54<Wolf01>frosch123, andythenorth: speed limits? I would like same roadtype with different speed limit, move to BGT? (I always found stupid the proliferation of same rail track just to set a speed limit)
16:54<andythenorth>how about routing restrictions per BGT? :P
16:54<andythenorth>no trains > 5 tiles
16:54<frosch123>the point is that groundtypes define the surroundings, like protection walls etc. also speedlimit is shared by road and tram
16:55<Wolf01>No trucks in cities?
16:55<frosch123>no goods for town growth :)
16:55<Wolf01>andythenorth: weren't you the one who suggested it?
16:55<frosch123>new disaster: town blocks good delivery due to diesel restrictions
16:55<Wolf01>Aahah
16:56<V453000>made 4 trees, removed 1
16:56<andythenorth>third idea I had https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8591/BGT_UI_1.png
16:56<V453000>total progress of day = 3
16:56<V453000>iz fine enough
16:56<andythenorth>not in love with it, but different
16:56<V453000>gnight
16:56<Wolf01>Mmmh I think no netflix this evening
16:56<andythenorth>bye V453000
16:56<Wolf01>nn V
16:57<andythenorth>frosch123: everything is wrong in that mockup, except trying to get size
16:57<frosch123>andythenorth: i would like an easy toggle between road and tram
16:58<Wolf01>With that size you need to double the width of the dropdowns too
16:58<andythenorth>frosch123: do both road and tram need to show at same time?
16:59<frosch123>no
16:59<Wolf01>2 options: bigger toolbar; child toolbar
16:59<andythenorth>dunno I have more success making UIs in html than talking them out :)
16:59<frosch123>but two radio buttons looked easier than a toggle button
16:59<andythenorth>maybe we need to prototype it in game, not photoshop
16:59<andythenorth>concept is started at least
16:59<_dp_>hmm... apparently some new players have troubles finding mono/maglev so they can't bulid trains after 2000-smth
17:00<andythenorth>it’s never obvious that global toolbar is also menu
17:00<andythenorth>if that’s the cause
17:00<_dp_>andythenorth, it likely is
17:00<frosch123>well, i don't think mono/magl is their biggest problem then
17:01<Wolf01>Show main toolbar buttons with dropdown like actual dropdowns
17:01<andythenorth>who made all the crazy tile grfs?
17:01<andythenorth>Quast65 or so?
17:01<andythenorth>we need someone to make BGT test cases
17:01<andythenorth>‘tile with parked car'
17:01<andythenorth>‘tile with phone box'
17:01<andythenorth>‘tile with cat fighting doc'
17:01<andythenorth>dog *
17:02<andythenorth>‘tile with seagull eating chicken'
17:02<Wolf01>Just put stuff we already have for the moment
17:02<_dp_>tile with a black hole
17:02<Wolf01>And yes, I'm a bit worried about the UI
17:04<andythenorth>just don’t make it like the station or object UIs :P
17:04<andythenorth>the object UI missed a memo about padding
17:05*andythenorth could probably fix that, instead of bitching
17:06<andythenorth>frosch123: BGT airport tiles? o_O
17:06<frosch123>:)
17:07<andythenorth>I was trolling, but it might work
17:07<andythenorth>choose ground, add taxiway, runway, or airgate
17:07<frosch123>canals are already stetching it
17:07<andythenorth>it does canals too? :o
17:07<frosch123>i wrote it somewhere
17:08<andythenorth>oh you did
17:08<frosch123>if it works for road, it's definitely also suitable for railtypes (and would solve the compatibility thingie)
17:08<frosch123>but canals is a bit far fetched
17:08<andythenorth>can’t think of a use for it
17:08<andythenorth>except unifying river and canal
17:08<andythenorth>then being able to build river
17:10*andythenorth eyes gone
17:10<andythenorth>bed
17:11<andythenorth>bye :)
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17:36<nekomaster>So I keep starting over with my Belgian Train Set and everytime I start trying to modify the code everything stops working. Stuff just doesnt appear in game even though their PNML files are included
17:37<nekomaster>I dont know what I'm doing thats causing my problems and I'm ready to just give up as I've spent 4 days just trying to get set up and nothing works
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17:59<Eddi|zuHause>nekomaster: too little detail
18:00<nekomaster>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=76961
18:00<nekomaster>Basically I try modifying the 2cc Trains in NML Code
18:00<Eddi|zuHause>did you make sure to set climate availability?
18:00<nekomaster>and when I do, while it compiles just fine and produces a NewGRF, it just doesnt work in game, none of my steam engines or coaches appear in game
18:01<nekomaster>that might be why maybe?
18:01<nekomaster>0_0
18:01<Eddi|zuHause>did you set a capacity but it finds no cargo to refit for?
18:01<nekomaster>Because I removed the REGION parameter since this is only a Belgian train set
18:01<nekomaster>and I believe 2cc Trains removed the Climate availabilty and replaced it with the REGION parameter
18:03<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds plausible
18:03<nekomaster>yeah, I believe that was an issue with my NARS Add-on Set that some how I figured out quickly
18:03<nekomaster>I dunno why I didn't think about it or maybe look at my NARS Add-on Set 2cc Code to see why that worked and BTS didn't
18:03<Wolf01>Bah, I was so bored I moved the display options to the transparency UI and I even find it more convenient
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18:08<nekomaster>Yay so things work now
18:08<nekomaster>I spent 4 days drinking and getting angry and not getting anywhere
18:10<Wolf01>http://imgur.com/a/rvwcq could be good? I made them of different colour to show they are a bit different than just the transparency options, also the title should be changed
18:12<Wolf01>I think I'll move them to the transparency options array and move the loading indicators on the right too
18:12<Wolf01>As it works as a display option
18:15<nekomaster>Eddi|zuHause: Thanks so much for pointing that out, I'm so relived that fixed everythin
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18:56<Wolf01>'night
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---Logclosed Tue Sep 05 00:00:43 2017