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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-09-10

---Logopened Sun Sep 10 00:00:50 2017
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01:39<@Alberth>moin
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02:06<andythenorth>o/
02:06<@Alberth>o/
02:21<andythenorth>probably time for a BB game eh
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03:10<@Alberth>hmm, likely, but busy matching database records against each other in python
03:12<Eddi|zuHause>sounds like you should do that in sql instead?
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03:17<andythenorth>something has to generate the sql, no?
03:17<andythenorth>:P
03:17<Eddi|zuHause>xslt! :p
03:18<Eddi|zuHause>(i have actually no clue how that works)
03:19<andythenorth>you’re not missing anything
03:24<@Alberth>xslt is just fun, you have 3 different languiages (input language, output language, and rewrite-control language), and all of them are in xml
03:24<V453000>sup yo
03:25<@Alberth>I haven't found how to rewrite several steps in sequence, not sure it is actually supported
03:25<@Alberth>hi hi V
03:26<@Alberth>Eddi: yes, sql would be nice, if only all records were complete, did not have spelling mistakes, wrong data, etc etc
03:27<@Alberth>ie the kind of stuff you can expect when humans copy millions of records from centuries old books
03:27<andythenorth>some new project? o_O
03:28<@Alberth>somewhat, just providing some code to construct matches between the records
03:28<@Alberth>I am not running the project :)
03:30<@Alberth>9 level deep for loops :p
03:31<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: the few steps i made towards xslt once made it sound like it was a tree reorganization tool, which made it sound scary enough, and only works on xml, which made it useless enough, to not care any further
03:32<@Alberth>sounds fair :)
03:33<@Alberth>I did a few steps more, but once I found you could not concatenate rewrite steps, usefulness reduced to near-zero
03:34<@Alberth>ie cat input | xslt step1 | xslt strp2 | xslt step3 > output didn't feel sane :p
03:34<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, that sounds like it would be useful
03:34<@Alberth>I still wonder if I just missed it, or if it's really not possible
03:35<@Alberth>it seems a very basic notion to have in a functional rewriting language
03:35<andythenorth>in my limited experience of it, xslt is a solution looking for a problem
03:36<@Alberth>but as you said, being xml in everything, it gets too complicated too quickly to be of any real use
03:36<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: in my experience, that happens a lot in maths. where 100 years later someone comes and finds the problem
03:37<@Alberth>andy, it may one of these cases where the problem you're solving is simpler than the solution :p
03:37<andythenorth>yes
03:37<Eddi|zuHause>like, this "boolean algebra" thing, that was completely useless
03:37<andythenorth>xslt for rewriting existing HTML -> new DOM
03:38<Eddi|zuHause>... until someone built a computer
03:38<@Alberth>Eddi: that works in math, since you're talking about fundamental properties. xslt is simply avoided by picking any other solution
03:39<andythenorth>xsly is the purpotedly ‘simple’ solution for rewriting html on the fly, because it can be handled by a lightweight stateless WSGI app, simple pipeline
03:39<andythenorth>but the simplicity of the architecture moves all the complexity into the actual transforms
03:39<andythenorth>where it really sucks
03:40<Eddi|zuHause>sounds like you need an xslt generator :p
03:40<@Alberth>it heavily depends on how much rewriting you want, I am sure there are valid cases for it
03:40<@Alberth>eg simple tag rewriting, or inserting your content somewhere
03:41<Eddi|zuHause>but now, enough mocking of a language i barely understand
03:41<Eddi|zuHause>or know
03:44<andythenorth>meh, cdist flooded my pax stations :|
03:46<@Alberth>work for andy :)
03:46<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, it does that :p
03:46<Eddi|zuHause>that's why i never get to do industrial networks
03:46<@Alberth>:D
03:47<@Alberth>just ignore cities, they're annoying anyway :)
03:47<andythenorth>BB told me to do it :P
03:48<@Alberth>:O it created a chain of connections?
03:48<@Alberth>it doesn't even aim for that :)
03:52<andythenorth>tol me to deliver pax :)
03:52<andythenorth>+d
03:52*andythenorth should stick to point-to-point networks :P
03:54<andythenorth>bll
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03:57<Eddi|zuHause>point-to-point lines with single trains on each. best way to play the game
03:59<@Alberth>depending on your goal of playing :p
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04:22<Wolf01>Moin
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04:23<Wolf01>V453000: https://www.packtpub.com/packt/offers/free-learning automate!
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04:28<@Alberth>o/
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04:45<V453000>hm
04:45<ic111>Alberth, answer here: https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=63721&p=1191668#p1191668
04:45<Eddi|zuHause>now, am i really missing something for this unorganized crime interview, or am i just not getting the rules?
04:48<Eddi|zuHause>i mean, it offers me to skip it, but i solved all the other minigames before...
04:59<milek7_>hm
04:59<milek7_>how to change game script in running game?
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05:00<@Alberth>milek7_: not, I think
05:00<Eddi|zuHause>ah, i found it :p
05:00<@Alberth>ic111: these start times and offsets don't show up elsewhere?
05:01<milek7_>eh, so patching again
05:01<@Alberth>milek7_: there are reasons why you cannot do things
05:02<@Alberth>if things are safe to change, we generally allow it
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05:11<ic111>(temporary lost connection, and https://webchat.oftc.net/?channels=openttd unfortunately doesn't always tell me about)
05:11<ic111>Alberth: No, they don't show up elsewhere
05:12<ic111>They are properties of the timetable (aka OrderList), and the vehicle
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05:16<@Alberth>offset isn't really needed, it can be derived from the difference between start times
05:16<@Alberth>if you put them under each other, you gain lots of width
05:16<ic111>No, it works the other way round: You specify the offset, and based on this, the vehicle start is calculated.
05:16<ic111>I thought about removing one of (Timetable | Vehicle) start
05:17<ic111>However, if I remove Vehicle start, then players don't have the start date relevant for the arrivals / departures below
05:17<Eddi|zuHause>depending on your use case, you might need one more than the other
05:17<@Alberth>only vehicle start would qualify for removal, I think
05:17<@Alberth>so there is no vehicle departure anywhere?
05:18<@Alberth>ie first one would be equal to start, right?
05:18<ic111>Below, you specify "Departure 3rd April 1905", and do this in terms of the *Vehicle* timetable.
05:19<@Alberth>don't think in implementation, user doesn't know or care
05:19<@Alberth>oh sorry, you meant something else
05:19<milek7_>ok, game script can be changed in scenario editor
05:20<ic111>Just because I think in terms of users, I allow them to input the departure of a particular vehicle in terms of the timetable of that particular vehicle.
05:20<Wolf01>So, is the departure date vehicle based and tied to the next order? Why don't you just move it on the vehicle status bar (start/stop button) so you always see it at glance?
05:20<ic111>But of course, in the background, I translate the departure into the range of the timetable, i.e. [Timetable start, Timetable start + length [
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05:20<ic111>based on the offset
05:21<ic111>So, the Vehicle start is a piece of information players need IMHO
05:24<@Alberth>sure it's useful, but vehicle start time is not equal to first departure in the table?
05:25<ic111>Alberth: No, in general not.
05:26<@Alberth>ok, add a first row that is?
05:26<@Alberth>just throwing suggestions
05:27<ic111>I even don't actually enforce that dates are within the timetable range - I once did, but in my experience this just triggers tedious problems once you do things like shifting a timetable, editing start dates, and so on. Instead, I now mark orders with arrivals / departures outside the range [STart, start + length[ red.
05:27<@Alberth>I don't think you need "+" and "=". If a user sees the times, and cannot see how it's computed, I think he has no business doing time tables
05:29<ic111>Wolf01: The departure dates exist once per Timetable, but what you see in a vehicle timetable in fact is [Departure in timetable + Vehicle offset]. I don't understand what you mean with "move it to status bar"
05:29<Wolf01>I don't get timetables
05:30<ic111>ask me questions ;-)
05:31<@Alberth>time tables make the assumption of a regulated schedule, which may not apply to the play style of a user
05:31<Wolf01>I only use them for the most reliable thing: make vehicles wait n-days at a station
05:31<@Alberth>eg I never care about schedules
05:31<__ln__>did you mean "n days"
05:32<Wolf01>Load if available and wait for 5 days
05:33<ic111>A frequent situation for me would be: Load if available, and depart once (given the overall setup of your network / timetables) you know that you have a free slot (i.e. no other train crosses your way) on the railway ahead
05:33<Wolf01>It's the only thing I would save for timetables and move it directly on the orders options
05:36<ic111>That maybe would improve your rating at a station, but it would not allow for setting up a network where you have control about, where your trains meet, where (and when) they quickly exchange freight / passengers, and so on
05:36<Wolf01>I guess you even play with breakdowns disabled
05:36<ic111>No I don't
05:37<ic111>Actually, designing such a network with breakdowns on is a quite interesting / challenging task
05:38<ic111>The key idea is that you always specify your departures with some additional time for the potential case of a breakdown in mind
05:38<ic111>plus that you let vehicles wait an appropriate amount of time at the end station, to ensure that they can start on time into the reverse direction
05:39<Wolf01>To me it's a concept that won't work, in my network trains already wait each other, I can have only 1 train per track anyway so they are forced on stations or waiting points/passing loops
05:41<@Alberth>breakdowns are not very bad by themselves, they only cause massive havoc if your network is too full
05:41<@Alberth>which never happens if you do careful planning
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05:42<ic111>... and exactly that careful planning is the thing I do using timetables
05:42<@Alberth>unlike the usual playing style where you just throw a zillion trains onto one single giant network
05:43<ic111>After all, if you have e.g. five or ten trains sharing the same timetable, how do you (without timetables) ensure that they never by an unprobable, but possible sequence of breakdowns cause a traffic jam at the one end of the network, and the station at the other end isn't serviced for half a year
05:43<@Alberth>I don't plan, but observe the train flow, and expand the network when breakdowns start to cause more waiting
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05:44<@Alberth>expanding the network is a lot of pain with time tables?
05:45<ic111>Do you mean, introducing new railways / stations / trains, or you mean adding additional tracks / platforms?
05:46<ic111>I mean, if I design a railways line as one-track-line, where trains meet at stations, and realize that I need a second track, then I just build it
05:46<@Alberth>my main cause is more stations or more trains, which both eventually lead to a busier network
05:47<Wolf01>Also vehicles auto-separation is a weird concept since it's done at the first start, I never managed even to start vehicles on different dates, I can't think about when I need to add more vehicles, I usually do it by hand by starting new vehicles when I find a gap
05:47<@Alberth>as I don't plan, the trains will sort themselves out on any additional track
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05:48<@Alberth>but if you plan things, doesn't more trains cause havoc in the tables?
05:48<Wolf01><ic111> I mean, if I design a railways line as one-track-line, where trains meet at stations, and realize that I need a second track, then I just build it <- that is wrong, if you set the timetables right you won't need a second track even with 100 trains
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05:49<@Alberth>there is an upper limit to the number of trains you can push onto a track Wolf01 :)
05:49<ic111>More stations / trains: Well, I have fun with planning things, i.e. when I add an additional train with a new timetable, then I look, at which date do I have a gap, where it can depart at the station; or maybe, how do I need to change the departures of the other trains to allow for such a gap.
05:50<Wolf01>Yes, but with timetables you make them wait
05:50<ic111>Wolf01: There is a difference between, what theoretically works, and what works (with breakdowns enabled!) in practice.
05:51<ic111>So, you might plan that your trains meet here and there, and then realize, that some have breakdowns, and that your plan just causes delays in practice (one train has a breakdown, arrives too late at a station, thus the opposite train cannot start on time, and the delays spread over the network)
05:51<ic111>If something like this happens, then extending the infrastructure / more tracks is needed
05:52<@Alberth>ah, ok, makes sense ic111, constant planning and replanning :)
05:52<Wolf01>So if you say you can know when a specific train uses a track, you should also know the throughput of your track and timetable trains correctly
05:55<ic111>Wolf01: Breakdowns are a probabilistic concept. Also, stations not always produce the same amount of cargo (i.e. sometimes loading takes a day more or less), so it's somewhat experience-based, and in fact, for me this is part of the fun
05:55<Wolf01>That's what I can't get about timetables
05:56<@Alberth>the fun is trying to get as close as you can to the max load on a track, while at the same time keeping all schedules
05:57<@Alberth>since the max load isn't a simple number, this is a difficult problem
05:58<@Alberth>or rather, challenging
05:59<ic111>Another aspect is, that some delay is often ok, but once some event happens you might get a bigger problem
06:00<Wolf01>For me is: if you use timetables you don't give a fuck about production, you just want your network running like a well oiled mechanism
06:00<@Alberth>it's not a simple "run smooth" -> "total chaos" sharp edge, it degrades as you approach the limit
06:00<ic111>E.g., it might be ok, if your long-distance-train has 5 days delay, but once it has 10 days delay, the local train supposed to enter the line after the long distance train instead enters in front of it, and the long distance train suddenly has 30 days delay because it travels behind a slow train
06:01<@Alberth>Wolf01: you can care for production, just add more trains and don't use them fully
06:01<Wolf01>Which is what I already do without timetables
06:02<@Alberth>nobody claimed that time tables are the only possible solution :)
06:02<Wolf01>At least for vehicles, with trains won't work, with 3+ trains I already fill the network
06:03<@Alberth>:O
06:03<ic111>I talk about connected rail networks, where 100 or more local, long distance and freight trains share the same tracks...
06:04<ic111>... and where a long distance train can only be fast if I ensure that it meets other trains that cause it to wait as seldom as possible
06:05<Wolf01>If only there was a "depart after train 123 arrived at station"
06:07<ic111>Basically, it's an incremental playing approach, I have timetables for all vehicles, the goal is that they are more or less on time, and when I change things, add new railways, add new stations, add new trains, then I (constant replanning) change things in a way that things still work afterwards
06:07<@Alberth>Wolf01: more likely you want "a train from blah group"
06:07<Wolf01>Yes, could be
06:09<Eddi|zuHause>people frequently request "leave if another train of the same group arrived"
06:09<Eddi|zuHause>where "group" might mean "order list"
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06:23<Wolf01>BTW, I think if timetables will be merged to the orders list and not having their own window, and the single orders could be collapsed/expanded like the station cargo list with cdist enabled, then it might be more usable, yes the UI will be a lot cluttered but you have everything in one place and you can hide the things you won't use
06:23<andythenorth>ow
06:23<Wolf01>o/
06:23<andythenorth>don’t you like having two entirely separate concepts for controlling vehicle behaviour? :P
06:24*andythenorth still doesn’t understand how waiting for 10 days over-rides the full-load order
06:24<Wolf01>No, because I would like the waiting time at station in the order list and don't use anything else of timetables
06:24<ic111>In fact the timetable window I implemented has easily accessible buttons top-right specifying "Show timetable + Order info", "Show timetable info", and "Show order info"
06:24<@Alberth>andy, it needs a toggle somewhere in the orders
06:25<andythenorth>it breaks my brain :)
06:25<andythenorth>I will leave you to it :)
06:25<ic111>But it wasn't meant as complete replacement for the traditional order window in the first place (although all the functionality is available)
06:25*andythenorth playing Busy Bee game
06:25<@Alberth>the entire order stuff is beyond limits of what you can express nicely, currently
06:25<andythenorth>please please please don’t make it worse anyone :(
06:25<ic111>wasn't my attempt :-)
06:26<@Alberth>ic111: given the amount of duplicate information, it would make sense to merge them
06:26<@Alberth>but the orders need work too, they are too limited
06:26<ic111>As I have said, in terms of functionality merging is possible
06:26*andythenorth still doesn’t understand the purpose
06:26<@Alberth>and merging would explode your patch, likely
06:27<ic111>But I understand if people who don't like timetables just want to keep the usual orders window
06:27<ic111>Thus I was very reluctant to do so
06:27<@Alberth>it would need some way to hide timing information, basically
06:28<Wolf01>I would like a better orders window, but I can't find a purpose for timetables in my play style
06:28<@Alberth>likely there isn't a use for you
06:28<@Alberth>but it's a way of playing the game
06:28<@Alberth>ie much like RL trains run
06:28<ic111>Basically, the way are the "Full", "Time", "Dest" buttons in the upper right section of my window
06:29<@Alberth>I wouldn't use them either
06:29<andythenorth>my view of timetables is somewhat distorted
06:29<andythenorth>I only tried them for ships, and they just don’t work for ships
06:29*andythenorth should open some FS about that
06:29<ic111>Time currently means, "Show only the timetable lines", "Dest" means show only the destination = order lines, and Full means, "show both kinds of lines"
06:29<@Alberth>:O
06:29<andythenorth>:P
06:29<andythenorth>this was interesting reading recently http://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=2349257
06:29<@Alberth>and ships is the simplest, as they can pass eachother
06:30<andythenorth>and also Raymond’s reply http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6737
06:34<ic111>Probably, attempting to really merge those windows in this patch is just too much, then I not only have a discussion about timetables, but also one about every single feature of the orders window
06:34<ic111>Though the current situation, that I have a timetable window where all the functionality of the orders window can be reached, can be a good starting point for eventually doing so
06:35*andythenorth wonders if there’s no other way to space vehicles out
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06:36<@Alberth>make an invisible wagon :p
06:36<ic111>It's not only about spacing; but you might read the log of this channel of today, just before you entered it.
06:36<@Alberth>A trick I sometimes use is to have a single very long block
06:37<@Alberth>or rather just a block equal to the desired distance
06:37<@Alberth>extending the orders is going to be very very messy, I think
06:38<ic111>What do you mean with "extending the orders"?
06:38<Wolf01>Mmmh, I think I have a problem... I see the same vehicles twice in the replace vehicles window
06:38<@Alberth>multi-cargo transfers at a single station eg
06:39<ic111>You mean specifying which cargo should be unloaded / loaded to another vehicle?
06:39<Wolf01>Oh, I loaded egrvts twice for an unknown reason
06:39<@Alberth>only unload coal (but keep the wood), load stones
06:39<Wolf01>Broken game... :(
06:39<@Alberth>:p
06:40<@Alberth>grf doesn't detect double instantiation :p
06:40<ic111>Such things make the orders line longer and longer, and need GUI work
06:40<@Alberth>I think you need to split to simpler orders, and have several
06:41<@Alberth>rather than trying to cram everything in a single line
06:41<@Alberth>ie loading has nothing to do with unloading or driving to the next station
06:41<ic111>Basically the concept one uses for timetables
06:42<@Alberth>so why not have some sequence of small orders that can be done in parallel if it makes sense
06:42<ic111>Basically, we talk about the visual design here
06:42<ic111>not necessarily about orders in a technical sense
06:42<@Alberth>I'd do that also in the back-end
06:43*andythenorth reading log
06:43<@Alberth>or you will end up with some extension, and then again run into limitations as the back-end is not flexible enough
06:44<@Alberth>obviously this totally flips all order code upside down :p
06:44<andythenorth>I know we banned UI scripting (I found it an old thread about it in forums recently)
06:44<andythenorth>but e
06:44<andythenorth>eh, that might need rethought :P
06:44<andythenorth>timetables would be much better handled out of the core game
06:44<ic111>Things that can be specified multiple times (e.g. your "load that cargo, undload that cargo") are an 1:n relation, that needs redesign in the backend
06:44<@Alberth>users now can program, suddenly?
06:45<@Alberth>ic111: yep, total replace would it be, I think
06:45<@Alberth>takes a few years at least
06:45<ic111>But something like the arrival or the departure is just a value in the Order structure, I don't see why moving this to a different place in the backend should be necessary
06:46<andythenorth>Alberth: they manage to assemble newgrfs :P
06:47<@Alberth>sure, arrival and departure are the simple things
06:47<@Alberth>although hard-coded override of 10 waiting days... isn't understood by all
06:48<@Alberth>so likely there is more room for configuring behavior if you want
06:48<@Alberth>andythenorth: yes some do, but that doesn't mean the majority of the users
06:50<ic111>If you really want to approach a total redesign, then you need to agree first on the big picture (i.e., which order properties should be supported in the long term?), and then you can gradually refactor things towards that goal
06:50<andythenorth>the puzzle for me is how to design something with integrity
06:51<andythenorth>where the goals are unclear, and few people understand them
06:51<@Alberth>ic111: I know, I re-implemented 120+ windows
06:52<andythenorth>it was fun recently asking players about daylength
06:52<andythenorth>learning was that there isn’t one idea of daylength
06:52<Wolf01>I have 3 ideas of daylength
06:52<andythenorth>so even making daylength technically viable doesn’t meet wishes
06:53<andythenorth>daylength could be done in newgrf, with a handful of factors
06:53<andythenorth>timetables don’t work in newgrf, but eh
06:53*andythenorth wonders if the primary goal can be stated
06:53<ic111>of a potential refactoring?
06:54<andythenorth>just even of timetables
06:54<andythenorth>I know of multiple player goals, but listing those isn’t quite same
06:54<andythenorth>- spacing out buses in town
06:54<andythenorth>- modelling real-life networks
06:54<andythenorth>- optimising network use + flow
06:55<ic111>Speaking of my concept:
06:55<andythenorth>- proxy for ‘partial load'
06:55<andythenorth>- triggering station delivery of cargo on first run of route, to ensure vehicle makes money
06:56<ic111>Spacing out buses can be done - just choose an arbitrary start date, use autofill if you want, or specify departures explicitely, and then build vehicles with different offsets
06:56<ic111>If you have vehicles with offsets 0, 1, 2, 3 months, and the timetable length is four months, and set the departures accordingly (either by autofill, or manually), then you will have buses that run approximately in one month distance
06:57<ic111>Modelling real-life networks: Well, about what I described above; I control which train is where at which time, and where train meet, and when a long distance train enters a line shortly before a local train, and such things
06:58<ic111>Optimizing network use + flow: At least, my attempt is that once a train left at a station it has to stop as seldom as possible at signals
06:59<ic111>But of course, you need some concrete example in order to really talk about this
06:59<ic111>proxy of partial load I don't understand
07:00<Wolf01>The problem with spacing vehicles is that, as I said, you need to fix it continuously by hand, it would be cool that timetable recalculates the times based on the number of vehicles sharing the schedule, but that would conflicts with any other use of timetables
07:00<ic111>Wolf01: Doing this automatically is a very very hard problem in computational sense
07:01<ic111>I mean, I can detect that a train was late, but determining why it was late... hard
07:01<andythenorth>ic111: proxy of partial load <- setting wait ’n’ days is equivalent to load x%
07:02<ic111>Ah, then this basically is no application of timetables
07:02<andythenorth>because load x% isn’t provided, so timetables are ~essential for that (or I have to provide different vehicle choices)
07:02<andythenorth>it’s emergent behaviour, which has become “vital”, as much as anything is vital in a game about pixel trains :P
07:03<ic111>I mean, if you solve this using timetables, then you implicitely assume that loading occurs in a certain speed
07:03<andythenorth>yes
07:03<Wolf01>I don't think so, you can estimate the travel time with manhattan distance between orders and average vehicle speed, then divide per number of vehicles, cache it and recalculate only when the number or type of vehicle changes, you can account also for an offset as roads aren't always built perfectly and you might have breakdowns
07:05<ic111>Triggering station deliver of cargo on first run - how is this related with timetables?
07:05<Wolf01>ic111: I'm not speaking of fine tuning the timetable to keep vehicles in sync to the single second and pixel, it's just an estimation of the time it takes, simple math average
07:05<ic111>What about autofill?
07:05<Wolf01>Autofill can go wrong for every kind of reason, I don't even rely on it
07:06<ic111>I also use it quite seldom
07:06<andythenorth>ic111: if the vehicles are set to wait n days on first run, they are less likely to travel empty, so they make money immediately
07:06<ic111>Ok, this kind of optimization
07:07<ic111>Such a temporary change can be done either by temporarily changing the timetable, or by a temporary full-load-phase
07:08<ic111>IMHO
07:08<ic111>I personally usually don't care too much about the first round of the vehicle
07:09<Wolf01>I usually set up the orders and forget, I don't want to keep an eye on them because stuff needs to be fine-tuned continuously
07:09<andythenorth>I set buses and trams quite often to wait 5 days or so
07:10<andythenorth>more especially big pax ships
07:10<andythenorth>at every station
07:10<andythenorth>full load is no good, especially on asymmetric routes
07:10<andythenorth>e.g. 500pax ship stopping at a tiny village
07:10<andythenorth>so that is _my_ primary goal for timetables :)
07:10<andythenorth>but eh
07:12<ic111>If you want that 5 days permanently, you (in my patch), especially for ships which cannot wait at red signals, can use autofill if you want to keep things simple
07:12<ic111>Or, if you don't want to have time permanently you always have to do something once you don't want them any longer
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07:38<andythenorth>it’s so weird building newgrf airports :)
07:38<andythenorth>non-standard orientations
07:54<@Alberth>:)
07:58<Wolf01><ic111> If you want that 5 days permanently, you (in my patch) [...] can use autofill if you want to keep things simple <- wat!?
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09:00<andythenorth>quak
09:01<frosch123>moo
09:02<andythenorth>https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6207
09:02<andythenorth>^ plausible this will be fixed?
09:03<andythenorth>I don’t mind either way, but I need to delete some vehicles from IH if not
09:03<andythenorth>[which is fine]
09:05<frosch123>i wouldn't know what a correct behaviour would be, unless you want template-based replacement
09:08*andythenorth doesn’t know either
09:08<andythenorth>easiest to avoid it by not creating those vehicles
09:08<andythenorth>codeless code :P
09:09<frosch123>is the report about it being a *slient* failure, i..e do they want a more noticeable alert?
09:10*andythenorth proposes that mixed articulated vehicles are just banned
09:10<andythenorth>nuclear option
09:10<andythenorth>they’re not needed
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09:34<andythenorth>oops
09:34<andythenorth>Iron Horse might be getting un-simple :|
09:44<andythenorth>classic
09:44<frosch123>classic would be a wooden horse
09:50<andythenorth>ha
09:50<andythenorth>_probably_ I should delete the dual power electro-diesel train
09:51<andythenorth>and definitely not add more of them
09:52<frosch123>why? it's an interesting graphical gimmick
09:53<andythenorth>not sure I’ve ever used it in a game :)
10:01*andythenorth keeps it :P
10:02<@DorpsGek>Commit by adf88 :: r27913 trunk/src/console_cmds.cpp (2017-09-10 16:02:13 +0200 )
10:02<@DorpsGek>-Fix: 'unban' console command was not handling IPv6 adresses properly
10:03<andythenorth>:)
10:03<@DorpsGek>Commit by adf88 :: r27914 trunk/src/console_cmds.cpp (2017-09-10 16:03:29 +0200 )
10:03<@DorpsGek>-Fix/Feature: 'unban' console command - fix invalid help text and be more verbose
10:03<Eddi|zuHause>a fixfeature?
10:04<adf88>yep
10:05<adf88>a bit awkward, I know
10:08<adf88>what do you think about too big national letters (sprite font)
10:08<adf88>https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6620
10:09<adf88>do you find any intention in being so big?
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10:10<andythenorth>haven’t tried to repro
10:10<andythenorth>dunno which base set
10:11<andythenorth>looks like a bug, but eh
10:11<adf88>almost all dictricts are affected
10:11<adf88>diacritics
10:12<adf88>they are here: media/extra_grf/chars.png
10:12<andythenorth>someone just drew it wrong?
10:13<andythenorth>or are they supposed to be scaled down in code?
10:13<LordAro>i'd imagine they date from a time when the boxes were fixed height
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10:44<frosch123>adf88: are you using opengfx or original?
10:44<adf88>that depends
10:44<adf88>both
10:44<frosch123>i wondered whether it got broken when openttd.grf became the fallback for missing sprites, so it would mix standard letters from opengfx with diacritics from openttd.grf
10:45<frosch123>so, most interesting is whehther it works when using spritefont and oriiginal baseset
10:47<frosch123>or in other words: is one specific baseset broken, or does ottd mix basesets?
10:47<adf88>i wasn't using opengfx
10:48<adf88>I was referring to the original base set only
10:48<adf88>what does it have to do with opengfx?
10:48<frosch123>basesets define the glyphs for the sprite font
10:48<frosch123>opengfx has its own
10:50<adf88>anyway, original graphic set contains only some diacritics, and their sizes are fine
10:50<frosch123>so, is it abuot not using the sprite font?
10:51<frosch123>adf88: my problem is, that there are like 24 combinations for where those sprites originate from
10:51<frosch123>and noone states which combination is broken
10:52<adf88>heh, you are better since I have 0
10:52<adf88>:)
10:53<adf88>I have no clue where they came from
10:53<frosch123>there are characters in baseset, in baseset extra grf, in openttd.grf and in non-sprite fonts
10:54<frosch123>when i tried, i did not find a combination that fails
10:54<Eddi|zuHause>non-sprite font, and that font's fallback font for when the character is not available...
10:55<Eddi|zuHause>likely os-specific
10:55<Eddi|zuHause>but i have no clue how stuff works
10:55<adf88>I think we can just find some open font and make characters smaller in characters.png
10:55<adf88>the fallback character from original TTD grafix are irrelevant
10:55<frosch123>characters.png works just fine for me
10:55<frosch123>.... why can noone just state which combination causes it... :(
10:55<adf88>these characters are too big
10:56<adf88>in chars.png
10:56<frosch123>they are not too big
10:56<adf88>which is openttd.grf
10:56<adf88>not?
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10:57<adf88>moment please...
10:58<adf88>they are!
10:58<adf88>I mean that they should be smaller
10:58<adf88>because original TTD letters are smaller
10:59<adf88>like the FS says
10:59<frosch123>http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/pure_original.png <- this is what it looks like when using the original baseset, only spritefont
10:59<frosch123>it looks just right
11:00<frosch123>you and the reporter use some different fonts
11:00<frosch123>maybe non-sprite fonts?
11:00<frosch123>but they worked for me as well
11:00<adf88>no
11:00<andythenorth>basic Steeltown network http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8605/steeltown_network.png
11:00<adf88>they are just too big
11:00<Eddi|zuHause>the screenshot in the bug report clearly uses a different font
11:00<adf88>they are
11:00<frosch123>adf88: my screenshot shows the sprites from chars.png, they look just right
11:01<frosch123>i have no idea what the fs screenshot shows
11:01<adf88>OK
11:01<adf88>I see
11:01<andythenorth>what font is used in the report?
11:01<andythenorth>unusual T char
11:01<adf88>sprite font
11:01<frosch123>apparently not
11:01<adf88>original base set
11:01<frosch123>because sprite font works
11:02<adf88>not to mee
11:02<Eddi|zuHause>maybe spanish has some characters that the sprite font misses, and thus switches automatically to non-sprite font?
11:02<andythenorth>this is not the base set font I have https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6620/getfile/10849/ottd_large_sprite_font_different_character_size.png
11:02<andythenorth>nor is it the chars in openttd.grf
11:02<andythenorth>the T is highly distinctive
11:02<frosch123>adf88: can you "killall -6 openttd"?
11:02<frosch123>the crashdump should state exactly whether a sprite font is used or not
11:03*andythenorth proposes just asking James in 6620, and waiting :P
11:03<andythenorth>but maybe some of you like mystery puzzles more than me :)
11:04<andythenorth>where do I get the sprite font?
11:04<frosch123>you do not use a non-sprite font :p
11:04<andythenorth>how do I do that?
11:04<frosch123>and you do not use a weird language that forces a non-sprite font
11:05<Eddi|zuHause>the least he should do is upload his openttd.cfg and possibly his savegame
11:05*andythenorth bored, back to my BB game
11:10<adf88>ok, it's strange, now I can't reproduce it
11:11<adf88>in this FS, I think it may be some fallback indeed, not sure what caused this
11:11<adf88>I'll try breaking some fonts :>
11:19<frosch123>https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6620 <- that's what I would need to know
11:20<andythenorth>:)
11:20<adf88>I agree, on the screenshot the font is not the sprite font
11:20<adf88>these character are not sprites anywhere
11:20<adf88>they were rendered
11:21<adf88>but diacritics where not
11:21<adf88>all appears to be so
11:21<adf88>it might have to do something with font detection code
11:23<frosch123>well, it also worked for me when switching to chinese
11:24<frosch123>maybe it's the 9x build without icu :p
11:24<frosch123>so many unknown variables :)
11:24<Eddi|zuHause>maybe it's a newgrf which overrides the sprite font...
11:25<Eddi|zuHause>but not all of it...
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11:29<andythenorth>something more interesting? o_O https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6469
11:29<andythenorth>the station icon for FIRS Explosives uses animated palette :P
11:30<andythenorth>would be nice to see it
11:30<frosch123>it's on position 5 of the list, so may be done in 25 weeks
11:30<frosch123>:p
11:30<andythenorth>:)
11:30<andythenorth>can’t Eddi|zuHause review it? :P
11:32<adf88>looks interesting, i have no seee3 :)
11:32<frosch123>andythenorth: eddi is busy figuring out whether neko and syl are the same person
11:40<andythenorth>vital job
11:40<andythenorth>SYL needs some sig reduction
11:41*andythenorth so much newgrf to do
11:41<andythenorth>at least enough until 2020 or so
11:41<andythenorth>FS holiday is over
11:41<andythenorth>low score was 342, now people are adding more :P
11:47<frosch123>andythenorth: can i add more wiki pages?
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12:08<adf88>go ehed
12:08<adf88>ehead
12:08<adf88>head
12:08<adf88>thamn keybrd
12:08<Wolf01>You were looking for "ahead"?
12:08<adf88>yes, thanks
12:09<adf88>need to buy a new keyboard :P
12:09<frosch123>cheaper than new hands
12:09<adf88>keys are popping off, it's time
12:09<Wolf01>https://i.redditmedia.com/lUax1pSvxU45z57HLzIy_6AUQSIPSCVMbDTKe3Yroso.png?w=628&s=2a7c69f5efeec14a73dc1c07414a0c97 adf88
12:13<adf88>classic Windows keyboard is nicer :p http://stevenharman.net/images/posts/ctrl-alt-del.gif
12:15<andythenorth>frosch123: I just couldn’t get into the wiki game :P
12:17<andythenorth>no obvious way to win
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13:10<andythenorth>stone is over-demanded http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#steeltown
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13:11<andythenorth>it’s required at all 3 of the main iron/steel producing industries
13:11<andythenorth>(indirectly in 2 of them as quicklime)
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13:13<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: just a coincidence that the comment is by "A. Wolf"? :p
13:13<andythenorth>rest of the economy is remarkably balanced, stone is a bit sucky in comparison
13:13<Wolf01>Yes, totally
13:19<andythenorth>add more stone-producers? o_O :P
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13:25<andythenorth>dolomite mine?
13:25<Wolf01>Without dolomites?
13:26<Wolf01>BBL
13:26<andythenorth>:)
13:26<andythenorth>realism
13:26<andythenorth>limestone isn’t sea-dredged :|
13:27<andythenorth>there are no sea industries in this economy
13:41<@Alberth>I didn't have lack of stones
13:42<@Alberth>you can't just give each industry a little less?
13:42<andythenorth>maybe
13:42<@Alberth>gung ho only asks that you deliver some
13:42<@Alberth>iirc :p
13:43<andythenorth>I wonder if the problem is actually that it’s a bit boring
13:43<andythenorth>three furnace industries, all need a stone derivative
14:04<Eddi|zuHause>i was in the dolomites once
14:04<Eddi|zuHause>very pointy
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14:10<ic111>... but not implementable using the slope concept of OpenTTD^^
14:11<SimYouLater>Is there a reason I would suddenly be logged off while using the forums? I'm worried someone may have gotten into my passwords when my computer got infected, but it might also be nothing since I've been logged in with "remember me" for awhile.
14:11<SimYouLater>I only have had time to change my important passwords.
14:12<andythenorth>hmm
14:12<andythenorth>probably can’t add magnesite
14:12<andythenorth>already got manganese, too confusing, at least in English
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14:53<Eddi|zuHause>make an economy where all cargos start with M
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>oha, thimbleweed park is on sale
14:56<+glx>but only -33%
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>well, it's a fairly new game
14:57<milek7_>good game, but disappointing ending
14:57<Eddi|zuHause>i know nothing about the ending
14:58<+glx>and I don't want to kown
14:58<andythenorth>Magnesium, Metal, Manganese, Milk, Microchips
14:58<Eddi|zuHause>Müsli
14:58<andythenorth>Mutton
14:58<andythenorth>Maps
14:59<andythenorth>32 random M from dictionary?
14:59<Eddi|zuHause>Military Supplies
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, i have a headache that has been getting worse since noon :/
15:01<Eddi|zuHause>and i didn't get any further in deponia
15:04<andythenorth>hmm
15:04<andythenorth>swapped a newgrf cargo on a running game :P
15:05<andythenorth>works so far
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17:22<Wolf01>Mmmh, maybe it's time to go to bed early
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19:47<Wolf01>So, bed early... ok... 'night :P
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21:22<Eddi|zuHause>... if only going to bed would help
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---Logclosed Mon Sep 11 00:00:52 2017