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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-09-14

---Logopened Thu Sep 14 00:00:56 2017
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06:14<__ln__>o/
06:15<Wolf01>o/
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06:18<crem>\o
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06:31<Wolf01>I think that I really need to redo the synchronization part of my app...
06:36<__ln__>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvim4rsNHkQ
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07:08<SiRev>Hi, anywone around?
07:36<Wolf01>Maybe
08:12<Eddi|zuHause>unlikely
08:16<Wolf01>Did you reach a good point with the discussion of this night?
08:17<Eddi|zuHause>nothing you haven't seen
08:18<Wolf01>I didn't even follow it, and I don't think I want to read the log because it's a wall of text I might not understand :P
08:20*andythenorth drawing trains
08:20<andythenorth>still got length problems eh
08:21<Wolf01>I'm cursing all the divinities I know because I found some problems with my app
08:27<andythenorth>I am getting tied in knots trying to make a viable 1 tile pax train
08:27<andythenorth>6/8 engine, 4/8 mail car, 6/8 coach
08:27<andythenorth>is that even a valid goal?
08:27<Eddi|zuHause>probably not
08:28<Eddi|zuHause>trains that short should be railcars
08:28<andythenorth>it tends to spam the buy menu with mail and pax wagons that are too short for other uses
08:29<andythenorth>it can be done neatly with an articulated vehicle
08:29<andythenorth>BUT AUTOREPLACE :|
08:29<andythenorth>so no
08:30<andythenorth>https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6207
08:30<andythenorth>me nor frosch neither have any idea if that should even be supported
08:32<Eddi|zuHause>i think it should be supported, but the current autoreplace failure is not fixable in the existing framework
08:33<Eddi|zuHause>so you need consist replace
08:37<andythenorth>hmm
08:37<andythenorth>shame
08:37<andythenorth>6/8 engine + 10/8 mixed coach (mail and pax)
08:37<andythenorth>works well
08:38<Wolf01>Hahe hate hate anger hate hate anger depression :(
08:39<andythenorth>coffee, Lego
08:40<Wolf01>I'll have a chocolate cookie
08:40<andythenorth>how long IRL is 30 years of OpenTTD play?
08:40<andythenorth>assuming no ffwd
08:41<Eddi|zuHause>1 year is somewhere between 12 and 15 minutes
08:42<Wolf01>@calc 2.2 * 30 * 365
08:42<@DorpsGek>Wolf01: 24090
08:42<andythenorth>eh 6 hours then
08:43<__ln__>andythenorth: so that's where the time mysteriously disappeared and you weren't abducted by aliens after all?
08:43<andythenorth>isn’t it
08:43*andythenorth lost more time to obsessing about wagon lengths :P
09:01<andythenorth>15 pax and mail coaches
09:01<andythenorth>seems a lot per game
09:23<Wolf01>Why do people write html with unquoted attributes?
09:23<Wolf01>And why browsers allow them to continue with this stupid behaviour?
09:24<@peter1138>Ew
09:24<@peter1138>Apparently XHTML was too hard, so they dropped it.
09:25<Wolf01>The problem is that now I can't even load some pages because it seem there isn't a way to tell the XmlReader to be kind and load those anyway
09:27<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: maybe you should collect some actual user experiences
09:29<@peter1138>Well, you shouldn't be loading HTML as XML any more.
09:29<Wolf01>I need to parse it
09:29<@peter1138>But it's not XML.
09:30<Wolf01>Eh, I don't have a HtmlReader which allows to manipulate the DOM
09:30<@peter1138>https://github.com/MindTouch/SGMLReader
09:31<@peter1138>Eh, it's in .Net land though.
09:34<Wolf01>Wow, the parser is long
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09:43<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: design me a survey? o_O
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09:53<Wolf01>Is there an online tool which supports c# regex?
09:55<crem>Are C# special?
09:55<Wolf01>Yes
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10:41<Wolf01>Anybody good with regex could help me finding only \w+=\w+ inside < >?
10:42<crem>I would first find <.*?>, then search *=* inside
10:42<Wolf01>Yes
10:43<Wolf01>I'll do it with loops
10:43<crem>But if you want... <[^<>]*(\w+=\w+)[^<>]*>
10:43<crem>Will only find one \w+=\w+ per <> though.
10:44<blocage><(\w+=\w+\s+)+> ?
10:44<Eddi|zuHause>somehow i feel reminded of the kirby-dance
10:45<crem>blocage: that will find a=b in this example <c> a=b <d>
10:45<blocage><(\w+=\w+[^>A-Za-z0-9])+> ?
10:45<Wolf01>None of the 2, crem's one returns everything into < > if there's a \w=\w match, blocage's one it's what I've already tried and doesn't return anything
10:45<blocage>it's not what I understood
10:46<blocage><(\w+=\w+[^>A-Za-z0-9]+)+> ?
10:46<Wolf01>I have <tag attribute=value another="good value">stuff which may contain x=y</tag> and I need to get only the "attribute=value"
10:48<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: you should make a proper parser that handles the <tag X>Y</tag> part, and then do your regex only in X
10:49<Eddi|zuHause>lex/yacc or something
10:51<blocage>look like XML, why do not use one of existing library ?
10:52<Wolf01>Because it's malformed code and the CmlReader isn't able to load it
10:52<Wolf01>*XmlReader
10:53<blocage>in which way it is illformed ?
10:55<Wolf01>In any possible way?
10:56<blocage>xml reader can report the issue, some low level xml parseur may help, like sax parser
10:57<blocage>Wolf01, you should have a valid syntax to parse a file, if not you are in trouble
10:57<Wolf01>:)
10:58<blocage>so, even if it's not a valid xml, it should have a valid syntax, so in which way your syntax differ from xml syntax :)
10:59<blocage>for example: atribute=value is invalid in XML, you should have atrribute="value"
10:59<Wolf01>Thank you, it's really my problem, now I would like to solve that
11:02<blocage>Wolf01, what you want to achieve at hight level ?
11:03<Wolf01>Load the XML to manipulate the DOM
11:03<blocage>can you give some context :D
11:03<blocage>And the XML is ill-formed ?
11:03<Wolf01>Yes, almost always
11:05<blocage>http://lxml.de/elementsoup.html
11:06<Wolf01>I need to do it programmatically
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11:06<blocage>Wolf01, you should define wihich ill-formed XML you want parse
11:06<blocage>not all issue are recoverable
11:07<blocage>and if you have a syntax, you may go for lex/yacc flex/bison
11:08<blocage>making a lagage parser is full of pitfall
11:09<blocage>lex and flex are lexer, they cut your file in keywords
11:10<blocage>yacc and bison are actual parser that define the structure of keywords
11:10<Wolf01>I think I'll just look to fix the worst errors, I don't want to load 500MB of libraries just to parse random strings for html
11:11<blocage>You want fix an existing paser ?
11:11<Wolf01>My app is already big enough without third party stuff
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11:12<blocage>which regex langage do you use ?
11:13<Wolf01>I'm doing it in c#
11:13<Wolf01>The regex syntax is the same of many others, the implementation differs
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11:16<blocage>Wolf01, which kind of input string do you want match ?
11:16<Wolf01>RSS feeds
11:16<Wolf01>Also atom ones
11:16<blocage>mm I mean at low level within the code
11:17<Wolf01>But that's another problem
11:17<blocage>it's look like you already splited the document
11:17<Wolf01>I get an array of feeds
11:19<blocage>so you try to match <\w+\s+(\w+=\w+\s+|\w+="[^"]+\"\s+)+> with which string ?
11:19<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: really, i'd either go looking for a more forgiving XML/HTML Parser, or go the lex/yacc path
11:20<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: pure regex is likely the wrong approach here
11:20<Wolf01>I'm doing it with loops
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11:20<blocage>+1 to Eddi|zuHause
11:22<LordAro>Wolf01: https://stackoverflow.com/q/1732348/995325
11:23<Wolf01>So, I should just give up?
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11:24<supermop>man now i want a hiroden model
11:24<LordAro>Wolf01: with regex? yes
11:42<Wolf01>I should give up with the XmlReader
11:43<Wolf01>It's impossible to give it a valid xml
11:43<Wolf01>Even after fixing everything it still has something to blame
11:43<Wolf01>Now it bitches about feedburner links having ":" in the middle of the href
11:44<Eddi|zuHause>replace them with %XX?
11:44<Wolf01>And it wants a space there...
11:44<Wolf01>System.Xml.XmlException: 'V9AoX2Ar5FE' is an unexpected token. Expecting white space. Line 2, position 60.
11:47<Eddi|zuHause>you can probably ignore the followup-exceptions, when the fix is as trivial as that
11:48<Alkel_U3>Wolf01: can you give an example of the malformed stuff you're trying to parse?
11:49<Wolf01>Just get the html from a random feed of slashdot
11:51<Alkel_U3>can you point to an url, please?
11:52<Wolf01>http://rss.slashdot.org/Slashdot/slashdotMain
11:52<Alkel_U3>thanks
11:53<Wolf01>But you might wget it, as the browser version is tampered
11:55<Wolf01>Lol, I found one <a> tag with 2 hrefs...
11:55<Wolf01>Clearly XmlReader doesn't like that
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12:43<supermop>i wonder why there is such a paucity of model trams
12:46<Wolf01>There are the kato ones, I've seen a nice diorama and I really liked it
12:49<Eddi|zuHause>i think our local tram company sells a model tram
12:56<Eddi|zuHause>hm, i can't find it anymore
12:57<Wolf01>Ok, I trashed all the XmlReader stuff and went back to the old plain "try to get stuff from a string and if you don't find it just return an empty string"
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13:05<Wolf01>Quak
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13:09<frosch123>moo
13:11<debdog>This #channel does not have Super Cow Powers.
13:13<frosch123>i used gentoo from 2005 to 2010
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13:40<@peter1138>And that was just completing the initial install and compilation.
13:46<frosch123>i never complained about ottd compile times :)
13:46<frosch123>and i compiled firefox only once, then i knew why even gentoo has a binary package for that
13:48<@peter1138>Before we went to C++, it was super quick to compile.
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13:59<supermop>Wolf01: the kato ones seem really generic
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14:08<andythenorth>o/
14:09<frosch123>hoi
14:10<supermop>yo andy
14:10<andythenorth>supermop: which train shall I include in Iron Horse (Pony)
14:10<supermop>of britishy ones?
14:11<andythenorth>roughly
14:14<supermop>pacers?
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14:20<supermop>a mk1 emu with loads of doors down the side?
14:22<andythenorth>nice suggestions :)
14:22<andythenorth>I need a diesel, about 1960, freight, around 1500HP
14:22<andythenorth>preferably fake
14:25<andythenorth>and maybe named after a distinctively British animal :P
14:25<frosch123>fox?
14:25<supermop>badger
14:26<supermop>stoat
14:26<frosch123>thatcher?
14:26<supermop>stoat sounds freight-y
14:26<andythenorth>stoat is good
14:26<andythenorth>I considered fox and badger also
14:26<supermop>good and ugly
14:26<andythenorth>because this is IH v2, I need to rename most of the engines I think
14:27<supermop>hart?
14:27<supermop>hart not freight-y sounding
14:27<frosch123>is there room for a fast blue engine to be named hedgehog?
14:28<supermop>some western hydraulic?
14:28<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8606/horse_pony_v2.png
14:29<andythenorth>supermop: Wizzo is a shortened class 52
14:29<andythenorth>or a flattened class 42
14:29<supermop>wizzo looks good
14:29<supermop>v british looking
14:29<andythenorth>Little Bear needs renamed
14:30<supermop>maybe that should be the stoat
14:30<andythenorth>maybe yes
14:30<andythenorth>Shredder is the 1500hp freight engine
14:30<andythenorth>could keep shredder
14:30<andythenorth>or go for Badger
14:30<andythenorth>it’s kind of the default freight choice
14:31<andythenorth>good for 3-5 tiles
14:31<supermop>hmm
14:31<supermop>skylon
14:31<supermop>v british
14:31<supermop>but too 50s
14:31<supermop>saltaire
14:33<andythenorth>in RL, there were Kestrel and Lion
14:33<supermop>are the warning panels yellow or 2cc?
14:34<andythenorth>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_53
14:34<andythenorth>2CC
14:34<supermop>boo
14:34<andythenorth>boo? o_O
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14:35<supermop>yellow is mandatory to achieve BR-ness
14:35<supermop>how about a name that evokes the twin engine part?
14:36<supermop>swan?
14:36<supermop>swans go about in couples
14:36<supermop>not very freight-y
14:36<andythenorth>swan probably good for an electric
14:36<andythenorth>Avocet was class 89
14:36<andythenorth>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_89
14:37<supermop>original vehicles could have used an avocet
14:37<supermop>i always thought
14:37<andythenorth>ha class 89 also called Badger :P
14:37<supermop>looked slick in the gner livery
14:37<supermop>after the sh 40 there is a dire lack of electric locomotives
14:38<andythenorth>fortunately…newgrf ;)
14:38<supermop>the grf that added a sh 50 and sh 60 is probably the most concise and well reasoned newgrf out there
14:38<andythenorth>I could just go Tractor and do a class 37
14:38<andythenorth>or I could do something Irish
14:39<supermop>also bothers me: original vehicles, both electrics have large logo, all diesels have yellow fronts only
14:39<andythenorth>noticed that yesterday
14:39<andythenorth>had to look how the Roarer sprite compared to SH40 ;)
14:39<supermop>sh 30 should have had yellow front and floss 47 should have had large logo
14:40<supermop>as is 30 and 40 are basically the same
14:40<andythenorth>if I do the 37,it has bonnets, which is distinctive
14:40<andythenorth>not just another box
14:40<supermop>yes,
14:40<supermop>but those boxes are very british boxes
14:40<supermop>no deltic?
14:41<andythenorth>nah
14:41<supermop>too boss?
14:41<andythenorth>as Pikka found, it’s OP
14:41<supermop>heh
14:41<supermop>92?
14:41<supermop>oh man
14:42<supermop>railfreight grey where 1 and 2 cc are only on the little logo badge?
14:42<andythenorth>:P
14:42<andythenorth>so a bodged 37, call it Tractor, Growler, or Syphon?
14:42<supermop>yes i do own the BR graphic standards manual, how did you know
14:43<andythenorth>or an animal name?
14:43<supermop>syphon? like a tube?
14:43<andythenorth>apparently
14:43<andythenorth>https://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090906061026AAu6Yyd
14:44<supermop>syphon g sounds boss
14:44<supermop>dog name?
14:44<andythenorth>Bulldog?
14:47<andythenorth>hmm something fake for the 1500hp freight engine would be best
14:47<supermop>too british
14:47<andythenorth>what’s a mini-peak?
14:47<supermop>hill?
14:47<supermop>knoll?
14:47<andythenorth>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_45
14:47<andythenorth>but co-co
14:48<andythenorth>foothill? :P
14:48<supermop>coconut
14:48<supermop>berm
14:48<supermop>embankment
14:48<supermop>morraine
14:49<andythenorth>mound
14:49<andythenorth>lump
14:49<andythenorth>summit
14:50<supermop>lump is particularly charming
14:50<supermop>heap
14:51<andythenorth>or I can keep Shredder which is class 33 http://www.semgonline.com/diesel/class33_dat.html
14:51<andythenorth>and fake the length
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14:59<supermop>i want some little hiroshima trams running about
15:00<supermop>or a peach colored okayama tram
15:01<supermop>incredibly there are no english language wikipedia pages for any of the hiroden rolling stock
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15:08<frosch123>isn't the hiroshima tram set the oldest tram set of all?
15:16<supermop>hmm?
15:17<supermop>i want little ones driving around my apartment
15:17<frosch123>oh, didn't notice that the subject changed to hardware
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15:18<andythenorth>supermop: for mini-peak: crag, bluff, tor, tump, pike?
15:18<supermop>crag
15:19<supermop>used to climb about on crags in yorkshire when i lived there
15:20<supermop>https://www.instagram.com/p/BYpGYgllvOL/?taken-by=metabolist
15:20<andythenorth>such tram
15:21<andythenorth>maybe I should decide what to draw, then name it :P
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15:24<supermop>https://www.instagram.com/p/BYjx5nKlWQB/?taken-by=metabolist
15:28<andythenorth>I like the micro car
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15:34<supermop>in japan it is just 'car'
15:37<andythenorth>supermop: what have I drawn? :(
15:37<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8607/shredder_eh.png
15:38<andythenorth>it’s all wrong
15:38<supermop>hmmm
15:38<supermop>its something
15:40<frosch123>the roof could be from the xkcd phone 1874
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15:49<andythenorth>not sure what it’s supposed to be :)
15:49<frosch123>the roof has 1-2 pixels too much at the lower border
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15:59<Eddi|zuHause>thing i found odd with the xkcd phone: should't the camera be at 1/3 of the height, because that's were the eyes should be (if properlx framed)?
15:59<Eddi|zuHause>s/x/y/
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>dangit, s/x /y /
16:01<frosch123>no, the camera must be in the spot where you are looking at
16:02<frosch123>it's not necessary to have the phone in parallel to the face
16:02<frosch123>it's a camera, no scanner
16:02<frosch123>though, wasn't there a scanner on the back?
16:03<Eddi|zuHause>no, i mean the camera position is meant to have your face make eye contact with the other person
16:03<Eddi|zuHause>so it should be where the other person's eyes are on the screen
16:04<frosch123>oh, so it depend on the other person framing their picture correctly
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>yes
16:04<frosch123>shoudn't the camera move then?
16:04<frosch123>i.e. automatic camera positioning
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>maybe next year :p
16:06<frosch123>they should have replaced the home button with a travel button
16:06<frosch123>it's a mobile device after all
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16:08<frosch123>it probably should have wheels
16:08<frosch123>or legs
16:11<andythenorth>better http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8608/shredder_deux.png
16:12<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: didn't they get into the autonomous car business? that's basically an iphone with wheels then
16:13<andythenorth>xkcd car
16:14<frosch123>the roof has a cooler?
16:15<frosch123>i guess i cannot see the roof of engines usually, but i guess rain cooling also works?
16:16<frosch123>anyway, i like the wheels
16:16<frosch123>and the tank between them
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: coolers on the roof are quite common
16:28<andythenorth>o_O https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=75637&start=120
16:36<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: if both users have cameras in center of screen, wont both users eyes be at center?
16:48<Wolf01>andythenorth: reply "we are remaking it from scratch"
16:49<Wolf01>"also we are removing ships"
16:49<supermop>http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10209283
16:49<supermop>only luck so far
16:49<supermop>sold out but evidence that a product was made at some point
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16:58<andythenorth>supermop: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/N-GAUGE-KATO-14-070-Hannover-Tram-Hiroshima-Electric-Railway-/253114860978?epid=649672554&hash=item3aeed245b2:g:ankAAOSw2-BZdjLe
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16:58<supermop>those don't run in hiroshima anymore as far as i know
16:59<supermop>saw no pointy european style trams there
16:59<supermop>also they still have trammies there
16:59<andythenorth>ebay not producing much else :)
17:00<supermop>also also, as compared to 2004-5, 2009, and 2013, there are now tones of women driving and conducting trains and trams in japan
17:00<supermop>used to be pretty much a boys club
17:00<supermop>shrinking labour market will open minds
17:01<supermop>i think the answer is i will have to scratch build trams
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17:04<supermop>hmm of course when i search ebay i just get tons of figurines of tramway conductors
17:04<supermop>not sure wife would approve of me buying those instead
17:10<andythenorth>buffet cars: BAD FEATURE?
17:11<supermop>are you addy mk3 cars with different colored stripes along the top?
17:11<andythenorth>dunno
17:11<supermop>my BR graphic standards book has sample menus from spring 1968
17:11<andythenorth>buffet car would give a payment boost
17:12<frosch123>andythenorth: bad feature if you have to build them separately
17:12<supermop>you could have cars as modules
17:12<frosch123>nice if they are created automatically
17:12<andythenorth>that negates the payment boost idea :)
17:12<supermop>buy rake of cars, add buffet and the all become long distance
17:13<supermop>add a metro car and they all get 4 doors and higher decay
17:13<supermop>idk
17:13<andythenorth>hmm
17:13<frosch123>andythenorth: just have local cars and long distance cars
17:13<andythenorth>you would always add the buffet car
17:13<frosch123>isn't that what all sets do?
17:13<andythenorth>so I might as well boost payment in all cases :P
17:13<Eddi|zuHause>haha... "GähnOfThrones"...
17:13<frosch123>or is that a reason to not do it as well?
17:13<supermop>no one buys ticket to sit in the buffet car
17:14<andythenorth>frosch123: I’ve only played sets with one type of coach per generation
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>(... because german election campaign is soooo boring)
17:14<andythenorth>I only use Pikka sets tbh
17:14<supermop>should be a car with 0 capacity but payment boost to all other cars in rake?
17:14<andythenorth>I only considered it because I can make it 6/8 long
17:14<supermop>ha
17:14<andythenorth>which happens to make integer length with 10/8 engine
17:15<andythenorth>probably bad
17:15<supermop>as long as tt pasengers are just as happy to take a horse cart or concorde to whereever fare differentiation is sort of hard to think to seriously about
17:16<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: i thought elections become more interesting again since the forecasts become worse?
17:16<supermop>load speed works out to be the most valuable stat i find
17:16<andythenorth>supermop: I’m doing fast and slow loading coaches
17:16<andythenorth>but with 4 generations, that’s a 8 coaches
17:16<andythenorth>which is a shitload :P
17:17<supermop>as 'uncomfortable+high capacity' and 'comfortable+low capacity' work out to be a wash
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: that may be, but we won't know how accurate the forecasts actually are until it happened
17:17<supermop>andythenorth: after doing some 200 something trucks and busses i lost my appetite to split local/long haul
17:17<andythenorth>:P
17:18<andythenorth>still NFI how to make a 1 tile train with a 6/8 engine
17:18<andythenorth>and pax/mail
17:18<supermop>even though the vanilla style buses are clearly closer to a coach than city bus, cant be assed
17:18<andythenorth>I think the answer is 'not'
17:18<andythenorth>unless I do 10/8 articulated pax coaches
17:19<supermop>so instead just boosted capacity and load speed, and now they are both local and long distance
17:19<supermop>andythenorth: 1 tile train is MUs
17:19<supermop>or nothing
17:19<andythenorth>for trains, is ‘fast loading’ vs ‘slow loading’ even a thing?
17:20<supermop>1 tile station looks stupid, dont bother making a nice looking train to go on a stupid looking station
17:20<andythenorth>if you want high density, use metro
17:20<andythenorth>they’re all 1 tile :P
17:20<supermop>andythenorth: NJT = high capacity + slow loading
17:20<supermop>type is extinct in europe and japan as far as i can tell
17:21<supermop>but most american commuter railroads are like that
17:21<supermop>loco hauled coaches with high density seating (even two floors) but only end doors
17:21<supermop>and traps for low platforms
17:22<frosch123>andythenorth: most intermediate-distance trains have two floors here
17:22<supermop>NJT, Metra, whatever they have in minnesota
17:22<frosch123>possibly the platforms are not long enough for more wagons
17:22<supermop>per meter of train, NJT probably hold as much or more than typical full subway
17:23<frosch123>i guess two-floor cars qualify as high capacity, slow loading
17:23<supermop>frosch123: thats the issue in many suburban railroads here
17:23<frosch123>what is njt?
17:23<andythenorth>I could just keep the combined mail/pax coach for short trains
17:23<frosch123>new jersey transit makes no sense
17:23<andythenorth>but then auto-replace is broken
17:23<supermop>new jersey transit. a shitty railroad. bombardier bi-level, with standees in the vestibule
17:24<supermop>andythenorth: add apocryphal late game combined coaches
17:25<supermop>i use as an example of a type of commuter railroad in the us that is constrained by platform length and frequency of trains per hour, so the consist ends up being very high density per-car
17:25<frosch123>https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fd/DBpbzf_763.5_Remagen.jpg http://www.bahnbilder.de/1200/db-re-5-br-112-718034.jpg <- they kind of exist in two variants
17:25<frosch123>the latter with a real separate engine
17:25<frosch123>the former more mu-ish
17:26<supermop>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NJ_Transit_Rail_Operations#/media/File:New_Jersey_Transit_rail_operations_sampler.jpg
17:26<supermop>those bi-levels do not load fast
17:27<supermop>especially at low platforms
17:28<frosch123>yeah, they only have small doors
17:29<supermop>the seating inside is very dense too
17:29<frosch123>the ones i know and linked have two double doors
17:29<frosch123>so two people can enter/leave in parallel for lower/upper deck
17:29<supermop>so its an example of slow and dense, but not very british
17:29<frosch123>anyway, do they intentionally look like made of tin metal?
17:30<frosch123>to my eyes the njt cars look extremly ugly
17:30<@peter1138>Iconic American trains.
17:30<Wolf01>All that steel grey
17:31<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the shortest viable engine-driven train should be 2 tiles... 1 tile is only sane with railcars
17:31<@peter1138>https://gentlemenbehold.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/2003-08-25_greyhound_bus.jpg
17:32<supermop>frosch123: to my eyes too
17:32<supermop>http://www.umcycling.com/kenstationstoredcar.jpg
17:32<supermop>these are even weirder as the upper level has no floor
17:32<frosch123>looks like livestock transporter :)
17:33<frosch123>no floor? on the inside?
17:33<supermop>https://acm.jhu.edu/~sthurmovik/Railpics/09-07-24_CTA_KENSINGTON/METRA-Electric_Hi-Liner-interrior-gallery.jpg
17:33<Wolf01><frosch123> looks like livestock transporter :) <- totally
17:33<supermop>Wolf01: it feels like one too to ride in
17:33<frosch123>supermop: wtf? how do you get up there?
17:34<@peter1138>Seems wasteful of space.
17:34<supermop>there is tiny like ships ladder/stair at one end
17:34<supermop>the lower floor is not sunk like on a regular bi-level, it is at regular platform height
17:34<supermop>the upper seats are like sitting in the luggage racks
17:35<frosch123>oh right, no low floor
17:35<Eddi|zuHause>sounds like an awesome idea
17:35<supermop>as far as i know chicago is the only place these are used
17:35<supermop>don't know who's idea it was
17:35<supermop>they all seem pretty old
17:36<frosch123>someone who thought that old people occupy to many seats
17:36<supermop>the head room up there is maby 56"
17:36<Eddi|zuHause>how much is that in real units?
17:36<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: x25.4
17:36<frosch123>or someone who wanted to encourage women wearing trousers
17:36<supermop>and the aisle is about 1 foot
17:37<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 56*2.54
17:37<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 142.24
17:37<supermop>these trains are without a doubt some of the stupidest i have ever ridden
17:38<Eddi|zuHause>that's not... high
17:38<Eddi|zuHause>not that i can properly stand in regular german bilevel cars either...
17:38<supermop>and they are somewhat dense in service patterns, but diesel hauled. only one branch is electrified
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17:39<supermop>the electric line uses EMUs built to the same stupid style
17:39<@peter1138>At least you can have bi-level carriages.
17:40<Eddi|zuHause>maybe you should completely trash your railway system and build a new one? :p
17:40<supermop>peter1138: https://camo.derpicdn.net/953eaaa908e6145f3d2a444977b917b6edf1c336?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.semgonline.com%2Fgallery%2Fpics%2Fmt_4dd2.jpg
17:40<@peter1138>We trashed it in the 60s...
17:40<@peter1138>Didn't get around to replacing it yet though.
17:40<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, you failed the build a new one :p
17:41<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: its already trashed that's why we have such stupid and ugly trains on our suburban routes
17:41<supermop>and most cities no longer even have those
17:41<@peter1138>We're getting some "new" bits eventually but it'll be the same loading gauge.
17:41<@peter1138>I guess HS2 will be shitty as well, and that won't stop anywhere useful anyway.
17:42<Eddi|zuHause>where does HS2 go?
17:42<@peter1138>London to Birmingham.
17:42<@peter1138>At least, the first section.
17:42<Eddi|zuHause>i'm sure there is nothing useful inbetween :p
17:44<supermop>look they bought new ones to be just as ugly and stupid as the old:
17:44<supermop>http://www.nipponsharyousa.com/news/20160819.jpg
17:45<Wolf01>We use these ones as double decker: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treno_ad_alta_frequentazione
17:46<supermop>damn it why is this thing $470:
17:46<supermop>https://www.amazon.co.jp/Railway-Collection-Hiroshima-Electric-350/dp/B01N4HFFRQ/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1505425580&sr=8-2-fkmr0&keywords=tomytec+hiroshima+tram
17:47<Wolf01>Top deck: https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Traino_di_Roma_01_(RaBoe).jpg Bottom deck: https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Treno_TAF_-_Interni_-_Piano_Inferiore.jpg
17:47<@peter1138>Yeah but Italians are short.
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17:48<Wolf01>We have a lot of >1.85 ;)
17:48<@peter1138>1.85 is short, yes.
17:49<Wolf01>If you measure it in feet yes
17:50<Eddi|zuHause>well, i'm certainly >1.85 :p
17:50<Wolf01>I'm short, only 1.73 :(
17:52<@peter1138>Aww, my local TOC withdraw their Class 121 Bubble Car :(
17:53<supermop>those exist on mainline railways stil?
17:54<@peter1138>Well it was withdrawn, so no :p
17:54<Eddi|zuHause>what's a bubble car?
17:54<supermop>https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a1/W55033_at_Colne_Valley_Railway_2.JPG/220px-W55033_at_Colne_Valley_Railway_2.JPG
17:54<supermop>i think
17:55<supermop>this is quite nice: https://photos.smugmug.com/BR/BR-dmu/i-bxD7dcV/0/f2651369/L/b132-L.jpg
17:56<@peter1138>Yeah, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_121
17:56<@peter1138>57 years service.
17:57<supermop>we have trains on our subway older than that
17:57<supermop>oh i guess they are gone now
17:58<supermop>now 53 is the oldest
17:58<supermop>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R32/A_(New_York_City_Subway_car)
17:59<Eddi|zuHause>well, in berlin they had trains built in the 1920s in use until the 1990s
17:59<@peter1138>Light weight stainless steel, yes. Hmm.
18:02<Eddi|zuHause>currently, there's a modernisation wave going on, because former monopoly-operated regional networks are opened for "free market", typically with 15 year contracts. and lots of those mandated new trains, or heavily penalized offers with used trains
18:04<Eddi|zuHause>when these contracts go up for renewal after 15 years, they probably allow used trains, to make trains average age around 30 years
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19:46<Wolf01>'night
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---Logclosed Fri Sep 15 00:00:57 2017