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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-09-16

---Logopened Sat Sep 16 00:00:59 2017
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02:27<andythenorth>o/
02:28<@Alberth>o/
02:29<andythenorth>such :D https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=77016&p=1191946#p1191946
02:32<@Alberth>looks like the wrong solution, imho
02:38<andythenorth>you don’t like the behaviour?
02:38<andythenorth>or the implementation?
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02:44<@Alberth>the implementation; the RMB handling for tooltip is now overridable without any notice that it happens when you adjust tooltips
02:45<andythenorth>what was the previous behaviour for RMB?
02:45<@Alberth>tooltips and moving main display, I think
02:46<@Alberth>the latter is fine, as main display and windows don't interfere
02:46<andythenorth>I don’t get a tooltip on RMB, but nvm
02:46<@Alberth>default is some hoover time-out, nowadays
02:46<andythenorth>oh I have to set default to 0 for RMB tips
02:47<@Alberth>yes, except now it may not actually work, instead you close the window
02:47<@Alberth>very nice if you except a tooltip window to pop up :p
02:47*andythenorth verifies that
02:48<@Alberth>code tries closing first :p
02:48<andythenorth>yeah there’s no connection between the two settings
02:48<andythenorth>so the tooltip setting can be made to lie
02:49<@Alberth>code-style is also broken with the "{" at the start of a new line, but that's minor
02:50<@Alberth>first hunk in windows.cpp
02:53<@Alberth>I wondered if we can fix the bridge gui
02:53<@Alberth>if you have a selected two tiles, the bridge build window pops up, but if you click a bridge without having enough money, it just closes
02:53<andythenorth>what broken it? o_O
02:53*andythenorth tests
02:54<@Alberth>it likely always was broken, but most of the time you have enough cash :p
02:55<@Alberth>perhaps the money amounts should be painted red if there is not enough money
02:55<@Alberth>but that needs dynamic update, which is not so nice
02:56<andythenorth>I get a message “Can’t build bridge here…Not enough cash - requires £3,609”
02:57<@Alberth>:O may have missed that
02:58<@Alberth>nvm :)
03:00<andythenorth>easiest kind of bug report :)
03:04<@Alberth>I now have a coal mine at the top of a mountain, mountains contain gold :p
03:04<@Alberth>much easier than some processing factory though, as the heavy stuff goes down only
03:06<andythenorth>mines at the top of mountains are best
03:06<andythenorth>my game has one
03:07<andythenorth>they are electric trains…they generate power when breaking IRL
03:07<andythenorth>the game should model that
03:07<andythenorth>other trains on same track go faster
03:07<@Alberth>don't see all the sparks? :p
03:07<@Alberth>afk for shopping
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04:36<andythenorth>3 mail cars, 3 pax coaches http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8612/horse_pax_mail.png
04:37<andythenorth>not all integer lengths can be met for all generations of train, but most
04:40<@Alberth>looks nice :)
04:43<andythenorth>I have a few ideas, but not sure what direction to take
04:44<andythenorth>- restaurant cars / observation cars: boost payment
04:44<andythenorth>but might be blah
04:44<@Alberth>nice for modellers
04:45<andythenorth>the idea is that it sacrifices per-tile capacity for more money
04:45<andythenorth>but economic games like that are usually boring
04:45<@Alberth>could be nice for tycoons too, but they don't pay for traveling :p
04:46<andythenorth>I think it’s probably ‘no’
04:46<@Alberth>you'd need to sanitize openttd economically first, imho
04:46<@Alberth>but it's doubtful you should continue to call it openttd then, imho
04:47<andythenorth>ha
04:47<andythenorth>I think it might work fine, it’s just a payment curve modifier
04:48<@Alberth>oh, your change. Yeah sure, but "payment boost" isn't useful at all in the game
04:50<@Alberth>doesn't need to stop you from some making variations in wagons though :)
04:51<andythenorth>the other idea I have is already in Hog and Sam
04:51<andythenorth>two classes of pax
04:51<andythenorth>- fast loading, higher decay curve
04:51<andythenorth>- slow loading, reduced decay curve
04:52<andythenorth>slow double-decker bus vs. faster coach
04:52<@Alberth>makes sense
04:52<andythenorth>local ferry vs. passenger liner
04:52<andythenorth>can’t figure out how to do it in trains yet though
04:52<andythenorth>seems to need 3 more pax coaches I guess
04:52<andythenorth>maybe just that
04:53<@Alberth>likely
04:53<@Alberth>or at least something with "fast" paint :p
04:54<andythenorth>‘Suburban Passenger Car’, ‘Express Passenger Car’?
04:54<andythenorth>or maybe just ‘Passenger Car’, ‘Express Passenger Car'
04:55<@Alberth>sounds fine, else you're moving towards specific train types quite quickly, probably
04:55<@Alberth>train models, rather
04:59<andythenorth>currently the set design is mixed up with the code
04:59<andythenorth>I can only have one pax coach per generation, unless I subclass
04:59<andythenorth>can’t figure out if the code is just wrong, or if it’s telling me to keep things simple
05:01<Eddi|zuHause>the code is probably overly specific
05:01<andythenorth>the limitation is purely the naming of pngs
05:01<andythenorth>which are generated
05:01<Eddi|zuHause>not necessarily "wrong", but it might show an implementation-decision was taken too early in the design process
05:02<andythenorth>it’s for an outdated design of the set
05:02<andythenorth>there’s simply no extra property to distinguish 2 wagons of same type in same generation
05:02<Eddi|zuHause>that happens with "organic" design processes
05:02<andythenorth>but wtf, why do you need 2 at once, same?
05:02<andythenorth>isn’t the code showing the way here?
05:03<Eddi|zuHause>well, why worry about a limitation if you don't have the desire to overcome it?
05:03<andythenorth>the only reason I’m adding 6/8 and 8/8 long coaches in same generation is so you can more often make integer-length trains
05:04<andythenorth>V453000: 7 year old has just discovered fatal flaw in Steeltown
05:05<Eddi|zuHause>the junkyard doesn't have a press?
05:07<andythenorth>vehicles go to supply yard
05:07<andythenorth>supplies -> [long chain] -> more vehicles
05:07<andythenorth>there’s no exit from the loop
05:08<Eddi|zuHause>that's how consumerism workds :p
05:08<@Alberth>welcome to the world economy :p
05:08<andythenorth>it is quite neat :P
05:09<Eddi|zuHause>that's how economy bubbles form that blow up every now and then
05:09<andythenorth>it might bear some adjustment http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/cargoflow_steeltown.html
05:10<Eddi|zuHause>because you store more and more "economical energy" in this "long chain", which will eventually collapse under the pressure
05:10<@Alberth>some sneaky back-arrows here and there :)
05:11<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, gtg
05:11<@Alberth>bye eddi
05:11<andythenorth>I’m playing a Steeltown game currently
05:11<Eddi|zuHause>after a week being sick, now i have to try whether i'm well enough to partake in weekend activities
05:12<andythenorth>noticeable that I don’t deliver Vehicles to Supply Yard, even though I have them nearby
05:13<@Alberth>too many transports that you can do :p
05:13<@Alberth>at least I never fully connect everything
05:15<@Alberth>not even all industries are served :p
05:16<andythenorth>I usually get one big chain connected, then stop playing
05:17<@Alberth>previous game ended when I needed to re-organize my entire network to connect additional industries :)
05:18<@Alberth>annoying as the game had put all these town in the way :p
05:18<@Alberth>maybe I should play with less cities
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05:45<andythenorth>maybe ‘passenger car’ and ‘special passenger car’
05:45<andythenorth>special ones get random sprites: buffet car, observation car etc
05:56<@Alberth>sounds good :)
05:56*andythenorth tests it
05:59<andythenorth>might be more fun
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05:59<andythenorth>the coach/bus, ferry/ship thing works because they look totally different, not because of the rational economic choice
06:00<andythenorth>but ‘local’ and ‘long distance’ pax coaches would look about same
06:00<andythenorth>whereas special types add eye candy
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06:03<@Alberth>I agree
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06:31<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8613/horse_pax_mail_2.png
06:31<andythenorth>pretty good eh?
06:31<andythenorth>just 9 pax and mail cars, from 1870-2020
06:33<@Alberth>:O
06:33<@Alberth>I don't play that long :p
06:33<andythenorth>me neither :)
06:34<andythenorth>but I use ‘vehicles never expire'
06:34<andythenorth>don’t want to spam the buy menu with old trains
06:34<@Alberth>I think it's switched on currently, not sure
06:34<@Alberth>just hide the old stuff :)
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06:50<andythenorth>does ‘parcels car’ translate ok?
06:50*andythenorth is going to split mail cars
06:51<andythenorth>parcels car -> mail, express freight
06:51<andythenorth>armoured car -> mail, valuables, diamonds, gold, explosives
06:51<andythenorth>or so
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06:55<@Alberth>nice idea :)
06:56<@Alberth>explosives shouldn't be locked up :p
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06:56<@Alberth>they get stored in houses where the roof gets easily blown away, just in case
06:56<Wolf01>o/
06:56<@Alberth>o/ Wolf01
07:37<andythenorth>armoured van https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5053/5550985727_c037489e95_b.jpg
07:37<andythenorth>parcels van http://merlin46.zenfolio.com/img/s/v-3/p266764877-4.jpg
07:41<@Alberth>not sure how that counts as armoured, but fair enough :)
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07:43<andythenorth>me neither :)
07:43<andythenorth>bbl
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07:47<frosch123>moo
07:55<Wolf01>Quak
07:59<Wolf01>Ok, I'm awake now, breakfast, shower, sleepflix again
08:00<@Alberth>hoi
08:03<Wolf01>https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aq18YGQ_700b.jpg V's slug :D
08:06<frosch123>is probably a beer trail
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08:20<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, might be a sign of illness or other impairment
08:20<Eddi|zuHause>disorientation
08:49<supermop_home>yo
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09:32<supermop_home>rivers are so tedious
09:32<supermop_home>load a height map - too tall/bumpy/noisey to work at 512x512
09:33<supermop_home>try again on 1024x1024, still too bumpy, too many dead valleys
09:34<supermop_home>try again at 2048x2048, now at least there is some room in valleys, but they are still pockmarked with little pits and dead ends, so the rivers only flow in short little stints
09:34<Wolf01>Does the max map height influence the heightmap outcome?
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09:34<supermop_home>then the map is so big it takes forever to fix all the rivers and valleys
09:34<supermop_home>then there is no time to play
09:35<supermop_home>Wolf01 I'm down to max height 20, on a 2048^2 map that was designed for 1024
09:35<supermop_home>the steep hills and lack of flat land would be ok - its the bumpiness/noisiness that is the problem
09:36<supermop_home>even flat land has tons of 1-2 tile bumps and holes
09:36<Wolf01>I always load the heightmaps in SE and work a lot on them for this exact reason
09:36<supermop_home>yeah
09:36<supermop_home>but I'm not even making a scenario
09:37<supermop_home>just wanted a quick map with interesting islands and mountains
09:37<supermop_home>I didn't even really think about newgrfs
09:37<supermop_home>I wish the se could re-run river generation after ive smoothed out vallies
09:38<Eddi|zuHause>need a river generator that works out the small bumps
09:38<supermop_home>or I wish there was an option to smooth things out a bit
09:38<supermop_home>yes
09:38<supermop_home>even just 'silt up the valley floor a bit'
09:38<Wolf01><supermop_home> I didn't even really think about newgrfs <- and that's the reason which make me trash the scenario and close the game after 2 hours of work
09:39<supermop_home>raise valley floors one level so river can flow and maybe leave room for a road or rail
09:40<Wolf01>Mmmh, more scenario tools, we have "plant random trees" we might have "make a random river" too
09:40<supermop_home>exactly
09:40<Wolf01>Give me one or two years
09:40<supermop_home>even with the bad current river generator that would help
09:40<supermop_home>drawing river by hand is hard to make it look good
09:41<@Alberth>write a unbump routine :p
09:42<Wolf01>IIRC Eddi told me he likes a tool to make rivers where you set the spring and the mouth, and it pathfinds the river, maybe a bit more realistic which even change in size while reaching the mouth
09:44<milek7_>there wasn't some tool for importing riviers from GIS data?
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09:48<milek7_>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=70846
09:50<Wolf01>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=77024 :o
09:50<supermop_home>I should put transmitters on all the ridgelines so I can at least divide the map into basins and fix them one at a time
09:51<supermop_home>Wolf01 i saw that, looks good
10:24<@peter1138>Bah, my train keeps emergency stopping :(
10:24<@peter1138>Maybe I'm missing a signal.
10:28<supermop_home>yellow signal patch?
10:46<@peter1138>Nah, Train Simulator $current_year
10:47<Eddi|zuHause>dead man switch?
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11:04<__ln__>speaking of Train Simulator $current_year... the only(?) game controller it supports is the Xbox 360 controller, but the Xbox 360 controller is pretty awful for controlling things in TS. or am i just using it wrong?
11:04<milek7_>i think any game controller is awful for controlling trains ;d
11:05<Wolf01>http://raildriver.com/assets/images/raildriver/rd.desktop.home.jpg this isn't
11:05<Wolf01>https://raicho.home.xs4all.nl/model/control/tmx5512.jpg or this one :P
11:07<Wolf01>Just don't use a steering wheel :D
11:07<__ln__>those would be pretty cool, but are they supported by TS?
11:09<Wolf01>The raildriver one says that is compatible with TS2017
11:09<Wolf01>And almost every version of Trainz but TANE
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11:23<@peter1138>__ln__, yeah, that's pretty stupid.
11:23<@peter1138>Just tried OpenRails as well. It's quite bad :(
11:25<Wolf01>BTW it's a PITA to have 2 (or even more) controllers because some games support only a specific one... And I thought XBox One controller was compatible with games which supported the 360 one, but no...
11:29<Wolf01>Anyway, I'm going out to shop for food and eat, BBL
11:44<@peter1138>There's a load of games that throw a wobbly with the steering wheel controller plugged in.
11:45<@peter1138>They expect unused controllers to centre, which doesn't happen for pedals.
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11:56<milek7_>peter1138: for free train simulator maybe try eu07
11:56<milek7_>but it's not very intuitive to use ;d
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12:30<andythenorth>o/
12:37<andythenorth>Mail Car, Parcels Car, or Express Car?
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13:06<supermop_home>hmm
13:06<supermop_home>express isn't clear to non-rail people
13:07<supermop_home>sounds like a passenger car for fast trains
13:07<supermop_home>mail car is most tt-ish but idk
13:09<andythenorth>I am adding an Armoured Car as well
13:09<andythenorth>which refits mail, valuables, gold, diamonds etc
13:10<andythenorth>original game has Mail Car
13:10<andythenorth>or Mail Van rather :P
13:11<andythenorth>probably stick with Mail Car in that case
13:11<andythenorth>it carries loads of other stuff too though
13:12<andythenorth>supermop: given these 3, which 2 do I pick, and which is the Mail Car, and which is Armoured Car?
13:12<andythenorth>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Utility_Van#/media/File:BR_Mk1_GUV.jpg
13:12<andythenorth>http://merlin46.zenfolio.com/img/s/v-3/p266764877-4.jpg
13:12<andythenorth>https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5053/5550985727_c037489e95_b.jpg
13:13<supermop_home>I love the utility van but it looks like something off a work train
13:13<supermop_home>blue is armoured, IC livery is mail
13:14<supermop_home>fewer windows is more sensible than a bunch of windows with grills
13:14<supermop_home>bags of money don't care about the view
13:16<supermop_home>forget the utility van
13:16<andythenorth>so mail matches coach livery, armoured is solid CC?
13:16<andythenorth>current state of coaches btw ;) http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8613/horse_pax_mail_2.png
13:16<supermop_home>could be either
13:16<supermop_home>in game mail gets color same as passenger,
13:16<andythenorth>mail has windows, armoured doesn’t?
13:16<supermop_home>correct
13:17<andythenorth>any windows at all?
13:17<supermop_home>or maybe one window, to see if it's ok to open the door?
13:17<supermop_home>mail has indows because guys are in there sorting (in the old days)
13:18<supermop_home>how do you feel about magic
13:18<andythenorth>I wondered about adding a travelling post office coach
13:18<andythenorth>and boosting mail payment :P
13:18<supermop_home>whereby mail and armoured are freight colored unless in a rake with passengers
13:18<andythenorth>yeah I could do that
13:18<supermop_home>in which case they get livery similar to passengers
13:19<andythenorth>remind me :)
13:19<andythenorth>I am nowhere near implementing that right now
13:19<supermop_home>ha
13:19<andythenorth>currently drawing the – views for the whole set
13:19<andythenorth>and getting lengths right
13:19<andythenorth>then I have to fill all the other views in ;P
13:19<supermop_home>always found it odd that you set wagon colors based on what kind of locomotive they have rather than other way around
13:19<supermop_home>in vanilla game
13:20<supermop_home>I get that you might want more old timey colors on coaches behind a steam engine
13:21*andythenorth thinks that colours per vehicle group would not actually be insane
13:21<supermop_home>but I find i more often want freight locomotives colored differently
13:21<andythenorth>nor is it going to cause many code dramas
13:21<supermop_home>yeah i think just no one bothered yet
13:21<supermop_home>i think lomo had it
13:21<supermop_home>rct let you color roller coaster trains individually
13:22<andythenorth>nice
13:22<andythenorth>so…I have added ‘Special Passenger Cars’ which take up more space per passenger, but pay more
13:22<andythenorth>and show sprites for buffet, sleeper, observation etc
13:22<andythenorth>I could add ‘Special Mail Cars’ also
13:22<supermop_home>but yeah, would be fun to set mail wagons to be red, then my floss 47 or whatever is red when pulling them
13:23<supermop_home>without needing crazy livery magic
13:23<andythenorth>colours UI is bonkers
13:23<supermop_home>indeed
13:24<supermop_home>i feel like the strongest reason to not have 3cc is that selecting a 3rd color in the current ui would be miserable
13:24<andythenorth>also lack of palette :D
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13:26<andythenorth>hmm
13:30<frosch123>andythenorth: no lack of palette
13:30<frosch123>spritestacks :p
13:30*andythenorth never remaps
13:30<andythenorth>there are loads of rarely-used colours for vehicles
13:31<andythenorth>but I use them for PIL recolour ;)
13:31<andythenorth>hey look
13:31<andythenorth>someone found a bug https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6623
13:32<frosch123>i wouldn't even bother putting that in known_bugs.txt
13:32<frosch123>that's ln level
13:33<andythenorth>it’s totally accurate
13:33<andythenorth>and useless
13:33<andythenorth>both the report, and the feature :)
13:33<frosch123>if you can find a only mildly offensive reason to close it, go ahead :)
13:34<andythenorth>done
13:37*andythenorth stuck on mail cars now
13:39<andythenorth>frosch123: how to implement this in OpenTTD? o_O https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJDIHcLzCRk
13:41<frosch123>special cargo class for cargo that can be loaded/unloaded without stopping
13:41<andythenorth>yup
13:42<andythenorth>and some kind of magic station
13:46<frosch123>nah, station is hardly visible
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13:48<andythenorth>err
13:49*andythenorth needs a bear for coding
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15:33<Wolf01>Back and stuffed with food
15:36*andythenorth obsessing about trains
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>what else is new?
15:44<andythenorth>obsessing about ships?
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15:48<y2000rtc>Hi there. :)
15:48<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: ‘special’ mail cars. Yes | No | Maybe
15:48<andythenorth>?
15:48<andythenorth>hi y2000rtc
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>What?
15:48<andythenorth>some kind of payment bonus, and some shinier sprites
15:48<andythenorth>at the cost of lower-capacity-per-unit-length
15:49*andythenorth thinks it’s a daft idea
15:50<y2000rtc>andythenorth: I tried to find some solution for my goal to have the same design of rails with different speed but I wasn't succes. Horrible to don't know how to do it.
15:50<andythenorth>sad :)
15:51<y2000rtc>How I can see you are only one of you to helping to each other. :)
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16:01<Eddi|zuHause>dangit
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16:01<Eddi|zuHause>just wanted to answer
16:01<andythenorth>flappy connection :)
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i think it's a feature you can easily leave out and nobody would ever think "i miss this feature"
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16:03<andythenorth>there has to be one of those per big release
16:03<andythenorth>otherwise there’s nothing to regret
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16:03<andythenorth>not sure this is the right feature though
16:05<Eddi|zuHause>i mean, even dining cars are there mostly for the emotional attachment and roleplaying part of the game, their overall gameplay effect is probably negligible
16:05<Eddi|zuHause>like varying running cost depending on speed/acceleration
16:06*andythenorth ignores the idea for now then
16:07<andythenorth>it adds zero to gameplay, and sprites could be randomised for post office cars and so on
16:07<Eddi|zuHause>"Architect and city planner Albert Speer jr. died aged 83"
16:07<Eddi|zuHause>would this be newsworthy if it weren't for his father's involvement in the nazi government?
16:08<andythenorth>likely not
16:08<andythenorth>the name is distinctive
16:08<andythenorth>on a slow news day…it might
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>well, it's not like there's the most boring election campaign ever going on...
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>also some nonsense about boris johnson
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>something political about syria
16:10<Eddi|zuHause>and some sportsball
16:10<andythenorth>ok so my mail car problem is just semantics now then
16:10<Eddi|zuHause>sounds like a slow news day
16:10<andythenorth>I want two options, one of which is more restrictively refittable
16:11<andythenorth>one is mail, valuables-type cargos, express cargos
16:11<andythenorth>the other is just mail and valuables-type cargos, and looks more secure
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16:11<Eddi|zuHause>that distinction is probably useless
16:12<andythenorth>it’s mostly for eye candy reasons
16:12<andythenorth>nearly all IH wagons are for eye candy
16:12<Eddi|zuHause>rather make a mail/express wagon and the other one valuables only
16:13<andythenorth>also an option
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>i wonder if these catalans actually follow through on the referendum this time
16:14<NGC3982>what referendum?
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>the catalans want to run a referendum about the independence, and the spanish government doesn't let them
16:16<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: currently I rely on having multiple lengths of mail car, for silly-integer-reasons. http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8613/horse_pax_mail_2.png
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>they tried one last year, but also the government prevented it, so they just had an "inofficial" vote
16:16<NGC3982>oh, i see
16:17<andythenorth>I wanted to make them different types of wagon, instead of variants of same type
16:17<NGC3982>doesnt calataonian conflicts have some history?
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16:17<NGC3982>afaik that independence thing goes back to the 1400's or something like that.
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16:18<Eddi|zuHause>something like that, yes
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>there was a marriage between the queen of castille and the king of aragon, or something, which formed the spain that we know today
16:19<andythenorth>so Parcels Car (no windows) or Armoured Car (looks secure) or Secure Mail Car (which was a real thing in UK)
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16:28<andythenorth>Road Hog has Courier Trucks, which are like armoured mail trucks, but also carry other express cargos
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17:00<andythenorth>is bed eh
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19:15<Eddi|zuHause>yay. i killed all the kids...
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19:42<Wolf01>'night
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19:52<Ivanrelogion>No?
19:52<Ivanrelogion>Hi?
19:53<Eddi|zuHause>and now i killed the teacher...
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---Logclosed Sun Sep 17 00:00:00 2017