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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-09-17

---Logopened Sun Sep 17 00:00:00 2017
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02:38<@Alberth>o/
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03:39<andythenorth>bonsoir
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04:24<andythenorth>Alberth: moin
04:26<@Alberth>hi hi
04:27<@Alberth>bbl
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05:59<andythenorth>such stuff http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8614/horse_pax_mail_3.png
06:09<andythenorth>also if train length doesn’t bother you, and you just want to build with least thinking http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8616/horse_pax_mail_3A.png
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07:01<andythenorth>so how do livery over-rides work then?
07:01<frosch123>they are deprecated
07:02<Eddi|zuHause>it's the engine providing graphics for the wagons. but you should probably not use them
07:02<andythenorth>can’t see how it meets my case
07:02<Eddi|zuHause>shouls instead put the graphics on the wagons and have them check the engine
07:02<andythenorth>train 51 here is a railcar http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8614/horse_pax_mail_3.png
07:02<frosch123>no idea what you want to do, but there are better ways to achieve the same what livery overrides would do
07:02<andythenorth>I want to match the coach sprite to the railcar
07:03<andythenorth>but eh, I think company colour settings bork that anyway
07:03<Eddi|zuHause>so in the graphics chain just check the ID of the "parent"
07:03<Eddi|zuHause>and switch the sprites
07:04<andythenorth>yeah, I can do it in the switch chain no problem
07:04<frosch123>add a switch with PARENT scope and check grfid and vehicle_type_id
07:04*andythenorth thought livery over-rides were the ‘proper’ way
07:04<Eddi|zuHause>you can also override the recolouring
07:04<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I can? o_O
07:04<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, there's a callback for recolouring
07:05<andythenorth>I could just provide an unpowered trailer car for the railcar
07:05<andythenorth>or I could just nerf the running cost
07:08<frosch123>colour_mapping: -> switch(PARENT) -> return base_sprite_2cc + company_colour1 + 16 * company_colour2
07:08<frosch123>that will make the vehicle use the same company colours as the front vehicle
07:09<andythenorth>thanks
07:09<andythenorth>which is better, magic sprites on normal pax car?
07:10<andythenorth>or additional trailer vehicle?
07:10<frosch123>vehicle lengths again? :p
07:10<andythenorth>nah
07:11<andythenorth>8/8 railcars with 8/8 trailers
07:11<andythenorth>train 51 in the screenshot above
07:11<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: if you're doing additional trailer vehicles, you have trouble to make them available at the same time as the lead vehicle
07:11<andythenorth>yes
07:12<andythenorth>there is a simpler solution
07:12<frosch123>ihmo always make the regular wagons adjust their graphics for the rear vehicle
07:12<andythenorth>railcar uses same body as pax coach
07:12<andythenorth>rear vehicle frosch123? o_O
07:13<frosch123>i lack context, i am guessing the problem, maybe i am off :p
07:13<andythenorth>I wondered if you’d had an amusing hax idea :)
07:13<frosch123>i assumed the question was how to show different graphics for the last vehicle
07:13<andythenorth>yes
07:14<andythenorth>also, whether I should :P
07:14<andythenorth>but yes I see, I misread what you said above :)
07:15<frosch123>if you do, the best method imo is to use "position_in_consist_from_end" in the regular wagon
07:15<andythenorth>thanks
07:15<andythenorth>I won lengths btw :P
07:16<frosch123>for how long?
07:16<andythenorth>until next time, of course :)
07:37<andythenorth>dual_headed trains
07:37<andythenorth>evil or not?
07:37<Eddi|zuHause>not
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07:55<@Alberth>o/
07:58<frosch123>hoi
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08:39<andythenorth>ha someone built a model of my new Horse train already https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3768/12253808286_dd6a10bf2b_b.jpg
08:39<andythenorth>train 55 here http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8614/horse_pax_mail_3.png
08:40<@Alberth>it's smokin' :)
08:41<@Alberth>but no need to convert pixels to lego thus
08:42<andythenorth>well it’s nice when people turn game art into models
08:42*andythenorth suspects that _probably_ the Lego one is inspired by RL
08:42<andythenorth>just like the Horse one
08:42<@Alberth>would a too boring alternative to consider :)
08:42<andythenorth>not sure what to do next on Horse
08:43<andythenorth>no shortage of work
08:43<andythenorth>probably solve lengths for freight wagons I guess
08:43<@Alberth>roll a die
08:43<@Alberth>or get less obsessed with lengths :)
08:44<andythenorth>I think it pays off tbh
08:44<@Alberth>likely it does, in nuts it all works nicely
08:44<andythenorth>aiming for integer length in ~80% of cases seems to help the set design
08:45<@Alberth>more restrictions == less room to mess around :)
08:45<@Alberth>but I guess it's one of those things you never notice unless it's not working
08:56<andythenorth>such lengths http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8617/horse_pax_mail_4.png
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09:06<@peter1138>andythenorth, what set is that?
09:06<@peter1138>looks pikkaish :p
09:13<andythenorth>peter1138: it’s like UKRS2
09:13<andythenorth>only not drawn so small :P
09:13<andythenorth>Iron Horse
09:16<andythenorth>also if you’re not obsessed by integers, you can just build trains like this http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8616/horse_pax_mail_3A.png
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09:29<@peter1138>What's a nice road vehicle set and ship set these days?
09:30<andythenorth>there are no good ship sets
09:30<andythenorth>Hog is ok for RVs
09:30<andythenorth>or eGRVTS of course
09:30<andythenorth>Hog is the only grf I’m not ashamed of tbh
09:32<@peter1138>FISH 2 then
09:34<andythenorth>yeah
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09:48<@Alberth>fish2 is quite nice, imho
09:49<@Alberth>problem with development is that you only look at things that don't work, and forget about all the things that do work :)
09:50<andythenorth>yup
09:50*andythenorth now obsessing about wagon lengths :P
09:51<@Alberth>in a difficult way, I might add, just make every vehicle 1 tile, and done :p
09:51<@Alberth>might be a bit trouble, even nuts doesn't do that completely :)
09:52<@Alberth>sneakily adding wagons to the engines :)
09:52<andythenorth>and some space in front of them, V tells me
09:52<andythenorth>integer lengths is really easy when you can mix up 2 versions of same wagon
09:52<andythenorth>across 2 generations, for example
09:53<andythenorth>works for mail cars
09:53<andythenorth>can’t do that for freight, because I nerf the maximum speed
09:53<andythenorth>so previous generation is too slow :P
09:56<@Alberth>yes, http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/nuts_holes.png
09:57<andythenorth>ha ha :)
09:57<@Alberth>I usually only replace engines, if wagons also need replaced, I mostly just build a new train and clone it
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10:02<andythenorth>poor man’s consist templates eh? :)
10:06<andythenorth>4/8 and 8/8 is easiest way to hit integer lengths with wagons :P
10:06<supermop_home>yeah man
10:07<supermop_home>tanks and stephenson's rocket can be 4
10:07<supermop_home>everything else 8
10:07<supermop_home>maybe an 08 or something can also be 4
10:07<supermop_home>if you really want fancy make your pacifics 8 with a 4/8 tender
10:08<supermop_home>your 20s can be 6+6 for same effect
10:14<andythenorth>supermop: I did :)
10:14<andythenorth>20s are 6+6
10:14<andythenorth>pacifics are 8+4
10:14<supermop_home>sorted
10:14<andythenorth>supermop: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8617/horse_pax_mail_4.png
10:16<supermop_home>ship it
10:17<andythenorth>it’s only – views :P
10:19<andythenorth>should I do some bollocks with cb36, changing wagon speeds to match the date?
10:19<andythenorth>or I could nerf some passenger engine speeds if you attach a freight car
10:19<andythenorth>or I could just let players do what they like :P
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10:39<@Alberth>other views are overrated, just always show - view, it's clearly the best :p
10:40<andythenorth>that’s quite close to the truth
10:41<andythenorth>eh, 2 lengths of every wagon type in Iron Horse?
10:41<andythenorth>bad idea?
10:41<andythenorth>Horse has lots of wagons… https://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=182208
10:44<andythenorth>random lengths on construction?
10:45<andythenorth>2/8 caboose :P
10:55<LordAro>happy to report no (new) warnings with clang5
10:55<LordAro>still got https://gist.github.com/LordAro/421dacee7b6911628849beaabc209f0c#file-0002-fix-a-couple-of-template-instantiations-or-lack-ther-patch tho ;)
11:05<andythenorth>the future
11:06<@Alberth>(uint64)-10000 :O
11:07<@Alberth>not convinced forces and power and such should be unsigned, imho
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11:10<@Alberth>industry production level doesn't seem to know what it wants:
11:10<@Alberth>i->prod_level = min(i->prod_level * 2, (int)PRODLEVEL_MAXIMUM);
11:10<@Alberth>i->prod_level = min<uint>(i->prod_level * 2, PRODLEVEL_MAXIMUM);
11:11<@Alberth>I wouldn't be opposed to using the "std::" prefix everywhere
11:13<LordAro>i don't doubt there's some issues with that patch somewhere
11:13<LordAro>i added the `using std::min;` declarations in an attempt to minimise the changes
11:13<LordAro>it wouldn't be difficult to add them back
11:13<LordAro>i just tried to keep it as close to what was done previously
11:13<@Alberth>min<int64>(UINT16_MAX, co... :D
11:14<@Alberth>yeah, that patch needs very careful checking :)
11:14<@Alberth>also, maybe instead of fixing all uses, fix the type of the variable?
11:14<LordAro>mm
11:14<@Alberth>probably a tricky problem to decide though
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11:20<@Alberth>line 864 looks wrong if (IsRailTT()) max_speed = min<uint16>(max_speed, GetRailTypeInfo(GetRailType(m_old_tile))->max_speed);
11:20<@Alberth>rail_speed > 0 is not the same as min
11:27<supermop_home>hmm is there a way to do many random towns, but have it only make small villages
11:29<andythenorth>2020: The Year We Removed Original Signals
11:29*andythenorth just saying
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11:30<Wolf01>o/
11:30<andythenorth>hai Wolf01
11:30<Wolf01><andythenorth> ha someone built a model of my new Horse train already https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3768/12253808286_dd6a10bf2b_b.jpg <- that thing is not lego anymore :(
11:31<andythenorth>stickers
11:31<Wolf01>Glue
11:31<Wolf01>Maybe cut pieces
11:31<andythenorth>such cheating
11:32<andythenorth>are shapeways parts cheating? o_O
11:32<Wolf01>I consider them cheating
11:32*andythenorth needs some bear coding
11:32<andythenorth>1. how fast should freight trains go?
11:32<andythenorth>2. how do I make 3 generations of 4/8 box van look different and interesting?
11:33<Eddi|zuHause>materials (wood, metal) and roof shapes (flat, round)?
11:34<Wolf01>The only not cheating part is the sbrick because it's needed on expos or you won't be able to show your moc, as the power function IR has only 4 channels and a lot of mocs use at least 2, some even 6 with a trick
11:36<@Alberth>equally fast-ish as pax? easy to mix them onto a single track
11:37<@Alberth>should you ever care to put them together at a single track :p
11:38<Wolf01>BTW, I started building the Saturn V today
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>also, do you really need 4/8 wagons? you can balance all trains above 2 tiles with just 8/8 and 6/8
11:40<@Alberth>why don't you just round up to integer length, and make sure you don't cross that boundary?
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>i still think nobody but andy really cares :p
11:41<@Alberth>V does too :)
11:41<Wolf01>If I'll ever do a railset I'll make sure to use only prime numbers
11:41<@Alberth>:D
11:41<andythenorth>I’m not worried if anyone else cares :)
11:41<andythenorth>if we chose projects by that criteria…ugg :)
11:41<@Alberth>:)
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>this isn't about the project, this is about a tiny implementation detail
11:42<andythenorth>it has become the project
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>that's the problem :p
11:43<andythenorth>I think we talk across each other :D
11:43<andythenorth>or you understand me perfectly, but find it daft
11:43<andythenorth>anyway, *informed* people telling me it’s wrong only encourages me
11:43<andythenorth>it’s only jackasses that make me cross
11:44<@Alberth>he he :D
11:44<andythenorth>also your point about 8/8 and 6/8 stands Eddi|zuHause
11:44<@Alberth>aka no talking you out of it by us :)
11:44<andythenorth>except equally 4/8 and 6/8 works
11:44<andythenorth>problem is, that means two lengths per type
11:44<@Alberth>would expect so indeed
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but 4/8 is quite tiny
11:45<andythenorth>yes, but that looks nice :)
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, i don't want to stop you, but i think you have a really unhealthy obsession there
11:45<andythenorth>I agree :)
11:46<andythenorth>this is current testing http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8618/horse_freight_length.png
11:46<Eddi|zuHause>that gap in the steam engine is terrible
11:46<Eddi|zuHause>number 69
11:47<andythenorth>yes
11:47<andythenorth>that is easily fixed though ;)
11:47<Eddi|zuHause>but while the 4/8 wagons in the depot view look cute, they get even tinier in the world view, where the / view dominates over –
11:47<andythenorth>yes, they disappear there
11:48<@Alberth>trains get nicer through corners
11:48<andythenorth>what a grumpy forum day :)
11:49<@Alberth>borrowed one of V's spaces at train 69, eh?
11:49<supermop_home>8 hours on the map so far and I am still finding wrong valleys
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11:50*andythenorth should fix train 69
11:50<andythenorth>to reduce the peanut gallery noticing it
11:50<Eddi|zuHause>supermop_home: are you sure it's not a fractal where each time you zoom in you get a new level of bumps? :p
11:51<frosch123>andythenorth: consider purchasing short wagons in chunks of 2 or 3?
11:51<andythenorth>maybe
11:51<frosch123>or does that make your length ocd worse?
11:51<andythenorth>it’s probably almost orthogonal to my current problem :)
11:52<andythenorth>“almost"
12:00<andythenorth>I fixed train 69 :P http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8619/horse_freight_length_2.png
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12:05<@Alberth>\o/
12:12<quiznilo>mornin'
12:20<andythenorth>too many box cars? o_O http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8620/IH_box_cars.png
12:21<andythenorth>1860-1990
12:24<Wolf01>...and where there is flame you find MB
12:24<Wolf01>Adding nothing but a +1 to his post count
12:24<andythenorth>keeps the conversation going
12:24<Wolf01>I would like to report him so bad
12:26<andythenorth>I don’t know why I’m immune to michael
12:26<andythenorth>he seems to irritate some of you a lot
12:26<andythenorth>I find him amusing
12:26<Wolf01>You already got stung
12:26<andythenorth>I talk to michael on forum pm sometimes
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12:50<andythenorth>box van http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/lnercoveredmerchandise
12:50<andythenorth>newer box van http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/vea
12:50<andythenorth>dunno if TTD scale can show much there eh
12:51<andythenorth>this is more of a speed limit problem, not a length problem :P
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12:51<andythenorth>45mph, 60mph, 75mph, 85mph
12:51<andythenorth>each generation needs wagons
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13:41<Wolf01>https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aADEER2_460sv.mp4 train in terminal
13:42<andythenorth>awesome title :)
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14:12<Wolf01>I think SYL is mixing up things... he's also sending strange PMs and I don't even know what to reply :/
14:13<andythenorth>Wolf01: how come you chose a station board from my station :P
14:13<Wolf01>Ahaah, I just chose a mid sized image from google
14:14<andythenorth>I don’t remember all station boards btw :)
14:14<andythenorth>it’s the trains that give it away
14:14<andythenorth>SYL is sending strange PMs to multiple people
14:18<Wolf01>BTW too bad that KK had that nasty reaction about NRT, I was totally like to ask him some support for BGT, maybe on the road handling by cities as it looked like one who knows how to work... but heh...
14:19<andythenorth>probably I was being an arse
14:19<andythenorth>dunno
14:20<andythenorth>armchair theorists are annoying
14:22<Wolf01>Maybe we just explained why we got stuck in a wrong way, he picked up really much on "making the 100% perfect patch", which is not what we are going to do, but we are just trying to not put ourselves in a cul-de-sac and getting nowhere with the current draft
14:27<andythenorth>don’t wear clown shoes in public
14:27<andythenorth>NRT has clown shoes on
14:28<andythenorth>w.r.t catenary in towns, and upgrading town roads
14:32<@Alberth>Wolf01: BGT?
14:32<Wolf01>ButGroundTypes
14:32<@Alberth>:o new one :)
14:32<andythenorth>https://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/ButGroundTypes
14:33<andythenorth>ach 4/8 box cars :P http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8621/IH_box_cars_2.png
14:33<V453000>evening
14:33<andythenorth>lo V
14:33<V453000>back from holidays
14:33<V453000>still no new comments on brix :0
14:33<V453000>iz ded
14:33<@Alberth>gey box car too long :p
14:33<V453000>guess I should work on it :D
14:34<andythenorth>iz dead V453000
14:34<Wolf01>I think some things could be addressed later, some other are just plain fuck like catenary distinction between road and tramway, or even having to use all the 15 tramtypes just to change the pavement without having any difference in speed or limitation
14:34<andythenorth>Alberth: thanks for the help :)
14:34<andythenorth>Wolf01: the killer things are ‘upgrading’ (fixes town roads) and ‘catenary is shared’
14:34<Wolf01>And to address the plain fuck ones, we need something like BGT
14:34<andythenorth>the ground types variety is slightly distracting imo
14:36<@Alberth>oh, NRT2 thus, seems nice progress in thinking
14:36<V453000>ooh forum drama over grf scale standards
14:36<V453000>too ridiculous to take seriously
14:38<Wolf01>Is that TT scale started with a totally different problem?
14:38<@Alberth>andy, can't you make the open car more open, ie holes in the wood part?
14:39<V453000>I think just discussing scale in OpenTTD is something outright ridiculous
14:39<@Alberth>variation in blue box cars is nice, not sure that you can actually see it in-game though
14:44<andythenorth>open car needs some work
14:45<andythenorth>not happy with the box cars
14:45<andythenorth>I could just have them look the same like pikka does
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14:48<V453000>._.
14:49<andythenorth>such sprites
14:49<andythenorth>I could piss around with colours I suppose
14:49<andythenorth>gen 1 could be grey
14:49<andythenorth>or have grey roof
14:49<andythenorth>dunno
14:50<V453000>why does the hopper have good contrast
14:50<@Alberth>you don't have a reefer car, do you?
14:50<V453000>and rest of them much less of it
14:58<andythenorth>V453000: is needing redrawn all
14:58<andythenorth>Alberth: there are reefer cars yes
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15:02<V453000>right
15:04<@Alberth>hmm, maybe I played with horse too long ago
15:25<FLHerne>andythenorth: I guess VAAs etc are too late?
15:26<andythenorth>too long
15:27<andythenorth>:)
15:28<FLHerne>They have to get longer at some point, surely?
15:30<andythenorth>yea
15:30<andythenorth>but I specifically want to have 4/8 long in 1960…for reasons :)
15:31<FLHerne>You could have the early ones be planked, and later be plywood
15:31<FLHerne>Not that anyone would notice
15:31<andythenorth>working on it :)
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15:31<andythenorth>drawing planks is tricky at TTD size :)
15:32<FLHerne>Yeah :P
15:32<FLHerne>You could go to 8bppEZ
15:32<FLHerne>Someone was doing that, at 2x scale only
15:33<andythenorth>better http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8622/IH_box_cars_3.png
15:34<FLHerne>Well, I guess I can tell them apart
15:37<andythenorth>working on it :)
15:50<andythenorth>bbl
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18:58<Wolf01>'night
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---Logclosed Mon Sep 18 00:00:01 2017