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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-09-22

---Logopened Fri Sep 22 00:00:07 2017
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02:27<andythenorth>o/
02:27<andythenorth>V453000: such
02:27<andythenorth>trees
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05:56<Wolf01>o/
05:56<andythenorth>lo Wolf01
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06:10<V453000>andythenorth I think I have some infection
06:10<V453000>optimizing render times
06:10<V453000>by overhauling the whole rendering script to do horrible things
06:11<andythenorth>such automation
06:11<V453000>going to save them seconds
06:11<andythenorth>bbl
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08:29<@Alberth>o/
08:32<andythenorth>lo Alberth
08:34<Wolf01>o/
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09:37<supermop>yo
09:37<Wolf01>o/
09:37<supermop>good morning wolf
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10:06<V453000>nice, 5 times faster rendering with new script =D
10:08<supermop>now i need to play a game where i can buy one of every RV so i can check how they look in vehicle list
10:08<V453000>wot
10:08<V453000>just play with vehicles_never_expire on ?
10:09<supermop>yeah
10:10<supermop>still need to buy each one
10:10<supermop>to check how they look in vehicle list vs purchase menu
10:38<supermop>hmm japan set + termite means you get the EMUs and electric locomotives
10:38<supermop>but no diesel locomotives or wagons
10:38<supermop>or DMUs
10:40<supermop>hmm
10:40<supermop>it seems that with termite electrified NG and regular NG are not compatible
10:45<supermop>also this game is just to check RV list sprites, but here I am getting bothered by my EMU options
10:46<andythenorth>supermop: sounds like a termite bug
10:49<supermop>now i have to buy EMUs using only the head unit $$$
10:49<supermop>or could convert this line to shinkansen
10:51<supermop>just pulled all the wires down
11:05<andythenorth>Wolf01: did you run into this saveload issue also? https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1192342#p1192342
11:05<Wolf01>Yes
11:06<Wolf01>I can't understand why it happen, all the vehicles after load have 0Kph max speed
11:07<Wolf01>And clearly it crashes with division by 0 when calculating the effects
11:09<Wolf01>The other crashes are new to me
11:09<Eddi|zuHause>a callback gone wrong with not-properly-saved data?
11:10<Wolf01>Could be
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11:31<Wolf01>Mmmh, I tried with different grf combinations and always crashes, so it's not a grf problem
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>if it only happens on reload, you might have incorrectly cleared some cache, or failed to reinitialize it
11:39<Wolf01>But why it doesn't happen to andy or frosch?
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>heisenbug
11:41<andythenorth>not windows?
11:41<andythenorth>both the reports of it are for windows
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>today i spent two hours debugging an issue where the fill levels of tanks were incorrect
11:42<andythenorth>under or over?
11:42<andythenorth>:P
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>turned out it was missing some () in the formula for volume
11:43<Eddi|zuHause>something along the lines of "l*b1*h1-b2*h2" instead of "l*(b1*h1-b2*h2)"
11:44<Eddi|zuHause>with b1/b2/h1/h2 being some complex formulas
11:52<Wolf01>The only thing that changed is the introduction of a constant in saveload
11:53<Wolf01>To give a meaning to the version number used in afterload
11:58<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I used to get mocked for putting parentheses into formulas :P
11:58<andythenorth>instead of committing the operation rules to memory, and parsing them every time I read a line
11:58<Eddi|zuHause>i told the other guy who was involved with writing the code that the formulas are unnecessarily complex
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12:15<@Alberth>assign the formulas to temporary variables
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12:19<andythenorth>lambdas
12:23<Wolf01>Mmmmh... mmmh... I have a problem reading the type of a vehicle (road or tram), I get the subtype instead
12:28<supermop>hmm need to remove exhaust pipe switch from 1900 and 1910 ish trucks
12:29<supermop>dont fit on the old cabs
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12:39<Wolf01>Ok, when loading a savegame the roadtype info is broken
12:42<Wolf01>Uhm, no, I don't think that is the case, the default roadtypes have 0 max speed anyway
12:42<Eddi|zuHause>so the data is reset somewhere and then not refilled with proper values
12:43<Wolf01>No, I think it gets the wrong value for the cached max speed
12:48<__ln__>so... should i buy cheap flights to Los Angeles in january..march?
12:48<supermop>for a 3 month stay?
12:48<supermop>i mean LA is probably fine no matter when you go
12:49<__ln__>no, max 1 week stay, but during those months
12:49<supermop>unless you want to go swimming
12:49<supermop>or if you want to spend time up in mountains
12:49<supermop>how cheap?
12:50<__ln__>398 €
12:50<supermop>holy shit
12:50<supermop>where from?
12:51<__ln__>from finland, via sweden
12:51<supermop>you are pretty much obligated to go at that price
12:51<Wolf01>Ok, the vcache.cached_max_speed is not restored
12:51<supermop>especially if it means escaping the arctic dark
12:52<__ln__>yeah, obligated was what i felt also last year when i bought finland->new york + washington dc->finland for 355€
12:54<supermop>what airline is this
12:55<supermop>hmm short trailer still looks too long and modern on the old road trains
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12:57<__ln__>supermop: Scandinavian Airlines, https://www.flysas.com/
12:58<supermop>nice
12:58<supermop>well you'll need to find a cheap airbnb, and maybe rent a car
12:59<supermop>but otherwise i'd say do it
13:00<__ln__>i'm seriously considering it indeed
13:01<supermop>im either going to do vietnam or honolulu with my wife's family around then, but i've yet to see good prices
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13:01<Wolf01>I can't track the source of the problem, vehicles from vanilla work, vehicles from the same grf worked, no code was changed
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13:04<Wolf01>I need frosch here, or someone which can understand where the problem is
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13:16<Wolf01>Quak
13:16<@planetmaker>quok ;)
13:18<frosch123>hoin
13:19<Wolf01>frosch123: Newgrf vehicles don't restore vcache.cached_max_speed like vanilla ones in NRT
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13:27<frosch123>Wolf01: it is recomputed in vehicle_sl.cpp:402
13:28<Wolf01>Eh, also gcache.track_max_speed is 0
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13:34<@Alberth>o/
13:35<andythenorth>hi
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13:38<Wolf01>http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/22/saudi-arabia-accidentally-prints-textbook-showing-yoda-sitting/ wow
13:48<__ln__>cool
13:52<andythenorth>1. how to fix FIRS Steeltown?
13:52<V453000>:D
13:52<andythenorth>2. I need some fast British trains inventing to suit the Horse rules
13:52<V453000>:D
13:52<andythenorth>must be plausible fake
13:52<V453000>:D
13:53<andythenorth>SLUG is not the answer btw
13:54<V453000>shyt
13:56<V453000>andythenorth: 5 times faster rendering times :P
13:56<V453000>iz win
13:56<andythenorth>totally
13:56<andythenorth>always
13:56<andythenorth>go for 10 times next
13:57<V453000>won't be so easy
13:57<V453000>aka not going to happen :P
13:59<andythenorth>maybe Horse schema all wrong
13:59<andythenorth>started from slow steam locos and worked up
13:59<andythenorth>maybe I should start from fastest train and work backwards
14:00<andythenorth>Horse all bollocks again
14:04<V453000>I started wondering if I should do 16/8 so don't worry about bollocks
14:14<V453000>sooo fuck palms?
14:14<V453000>100% official forum comments agree that they are WRONG
14:15<andythenorth>Alberth killed palms?
14:15<andythenorth>:P
14:15<V453000>well I agree
14:15<V453000>desert cacti don't look like cacti though
14:15<V453000>the fuck yo
14:15<V453000>:D
14:16<frosch123>V453000: the palms look emo
14:16<frosch123>you should emphasise that even more
14:16<frosch123>make it a sad tree
14:17<frosch123>a tree that wishes it would be a slug
14:17<V453000>gay
14:18<andythenorth>V453000 offends 10% of channel, statistically
14:18<V453000>nice
14:27<frosch123>does that assume 100% male?
14:27<V453000>isn't not that far from reality :P
14:28<frosch123>well, most are probably bots and dead bouncers
14:34<andythenorth>frosch123: stats are complicated eh https://daliaresearch.com/counting-the-lgbt-population-6-of-europeans-identify-as-lgbt/
14:34<andythenorth>varies a lot even in Europe
14:34<andythenorth>UK, more male than female self-identify as LGBT
14:35<andythenorth>other european countries tend to reverse that
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14:37<andythenorth>hmm 10% comes from https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/apr/05/10-per-cent-population-gay-alfred-kinsey-statistics
14:43<V453000>sooo spikey cactus pink/green/brown thing is fav?
14:43<V453000>I have 1 more ID to occupy after ditching the purple hanging down plant
14:43<V453000>so one is getting a clone friend :D
14:44<frosch123>do unicorns qualify as spikey?
14:44<frosch123>also, do you have something resembling a durian?
14:46<V453000>you're still on your durian fetish?
14:51<andythenorth>ok Horse is now just one train
14:51<andythenorth>300mph, 10,000hp, 250t all cargos in 8/8
14:51<andythenorth>winning
14:51<andythenorth>ultimate
14:52<V453000>what have I done
14:52<V453000>btw 10k hp ain't enough for 300mph :P
14:52<andythenorth>some kind of non-linear crap with HP<->speed?
14:53<andythenorth>3000hp is good for 100mph
14:53<V453000>yes
14:53<V453000>high speeds need fuckloads, especially TE related railtypes
14:53<V453000>I don't know the exact function curve but from observation and experience yes
14:53<V453000>look at nuts is all I can say :)
14:57<frosch123>andythenorth: do you have space to name an engine "nut cracker"?
14:57<andythenorth>maybe
14:57<andythenorth>sounds narrow gauge :P
14:58<V453000>XD
14:58<V453000>hm I don't have any dead horse engines
14:58<frosch123>i remember some zombiehorse
14:59<V453000>yeah nuts has some horse related engines
14:59<V453000>new set doesn't though
14:59<V453000>well new set has about as much as CETS has graphics, but ... :)
14:59<frosch123>so you are almost done?
14:59<V453000>XD
14:59<V453000>n
15:00<frosch123>:)
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15:01<V453000>I've reworked the engine table multiple times already and today I even started wondering if they should be 8/8 or 16/8
15:03<V453000>because 16/8 engines do have a lot of room for loooking badass
15:03<V453000>like the superstrong and doombringer classes in nuts
15:04<V453000>hm!'
15:04<V453000>shit.
15:04<andythenorth>meh
15:05<V453000>16/8 would mean double the amount of engine sprites
15:05<frosch123>as long as there spawn multiple smoke effects, long engines are fine
15:05<V453000>which is kind of alright
15:05<andythenorth>@calc 125-15
15:05<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 110
15:05<andythenorth>@calc 110-15
15:05<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 95
15:05<andythenorth>Horse all fail
15:05<V453000>XD
15:05<andythenorth>non-regular speed increases per generation
15:05<andythenorth>such wrong
15:05<frosch123>i never used the super strong engines in nuts, multiple strong were nicer
15:06<frosch123>though i guess that broke when you went for 16/8 everything
15:06<andythenorth>must fux
15:06<andythenorth>fix *
15:06<V453000>haha frosch123
15:07<V453000>hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
15:07<frosch123>i know that titanic only had fake chimneys, but i think trains should just have as many
15:07<V453000>my plan doesn't take into account dual headed trains
15:07<V453000>G_G
15:08<V453000>maybe dual heading only express trains makes sense?
15:08*andythenorth thinking same
15:08<V453000>shit that helps a lot
15:08<frosch123>well, i still need an excuse to allow articulated dual-headed engines
15:08*andythenorth putting in some dual-headed engines
15:08<V453000>I don't need that frosch123 :P
15:08<andythenorth>frosch123: “not needed"
15:09<V453000>oh yeah plan doesn't work
15:09<andythenorth>also, for v2 Horse, I have deleted all articulation, so I can use dual-head :P
15:09<V453000>FJSDIGFUCK
15:09<andythenorth>V453000: just make road vehicle set
15:09<andythenorth>easier
15:09<V453000>N
15:09<andythenorth>less roster bollocks
15:09<frosch123>andythenorth: i thought dual-headed is for cabage and cucumber cars
15:09<V453000>is same bollocks with less tools so it can't be made more awesome
15:09<andythenorth>cucumber? o_O
15:10*andythenorth fixed numbers
15:10<andythenorth>mph: 65, 80, 95, 110, 125, 140
15:10<V453000>chameleon trains already work as articulated and dual headed
15:10<andythenorth>and maybe some kind of super-speed crap at 180mph
15:10<andythenorth>meh
15:10<V453000>it just tells the wagons to camouflage as an engine
15:10<V453000>easy
15:11<V453000>I guess I will just do the same thing
15:12<V453000>unless
15:12<V453000>shit I'm overcomplicating it all
15:12<V453000>k plan ruined
15:13<V453000>eh ok got solution I guess
15:14<V453000>nvm ruined
15:15<frosch123>anything special in czech rep today?
15:15<V453000>idk? :D
15:15<V453000>I don't read the news
15:15<frosch123>why was there a thursday facts?
15:15<V453000>what
15:15<frosch123>or is the date wrong :p
15:15<V453000>yeah just wrong date because kovarex doesn't even read callendar
15:17<supermop>andythenorth: old road trains: short wagons, or don't exist at all
15:19<andythenorth>short
15:19<andythenorth>all 4/8
15:19<andythenorth>16/8 total
15:19<andythenorth>eh
15:20<andythenorth>125mph -> 186mph big stupid jump
15:20<andythenorth>but realism
15:20<andythenorth>also players want
15:20<andythenorth>how can I do it with a new railtype?
15:20*andythenorth totally fails to understand railtypes
15:20<andythenorth>All Railtypes Must Be Compatible
15:20<andythenorth>due to conversion
15:21<andythenorth>but how?
15:21*andythenorth totally confused
15:21<supermop>https://imgur.com/a/qBjZV
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15:21<supermop>5 and 6 are 'old' trucks
15:21<supermop>with the 'short' trailers
15:22<andythenorth>shorter
15:22<andythenorth>and wheels at front
15:22<supermop>the oldest rigid trucks have a shorter body, so i can composite new tiny trailers from those
15:24<V453000>ok tropic done tomorrow
15:24<V453000>toyland might be fast
15:24<V453000>just 9 types
15:24<V453000>will go full retard mode
15:24<supermop>im making dollies for the road train p-menu sprites
15:24<supermop>maybe i can be arsed to add to the actual trucks
15:25<supermop>https://imgur.com/a/T69fb
15:25<supermop>7 is a rigid truck with short body
15:25<supermop>can use those
15:26<frosch123>wait what? you can have terminus stations in f?
15:27<V453000>what the shit frosch123 ?
15:27<V453000>"of course" ? :D
15:28<frosch123>is that just my ottd mindset that trains can't reverse? :p
15:28<V453000>in openttd trains reverse? :0
15:28*V453000 is lost
15:30<andythenorth>nobody knows railtypes :|
15:35<V453000>can I read which vehID is behind a wagon?
15:35<V453000>so that it can adjust sprites based on it?
15:35<V453000>that should be doable, right?
15:35<Wolf01>I need a backup plan for this evening
15:35<frosch123>V453000: yes
15:35<V453000>knew it! :D thanks
15:35<frosch123>it needs your favorite var[] magic though :)
15:35<V453000>I'm going to do horrible thing with it
15:35<V453000>yeah I thought so
15:35<V453000>I'll just force myself to learn it
15:35<V453000>might be less of an obstacle now with some scripting experience
15:36<Wolf01>frosch123: yes, you can have terminus stations in F, you only need to make trains doubleheaded, or you can drive trains manually but going backwards is slow
15:36<V453000>you can have octopus station if you drive manually XD
15:36<frosch123>i knew that i can drive backwards manually
15:36<frosch123>i just did not get the dual-headed thing
15:37<V453000>I'm just piling hacks on top of hacks and my plan is now saved again :D
15:37<andythenorth>V453000: I just deleted all the next-vehicle var stuff in Horse, so you can have mine
15:37<andythenorth>it’s spare now
15:37<V453000>:D
15:40<andythenorth>how can I implement high speed railtype?
15:41<andythenorth>is there a way to make it compatible with RAIL / ELRL, but keep RAIL / ELRL trains off it?
15:44<frosch123>what?
15:44<frosch123>what is compatible to what?
15:44<V453000>do steamers really need tenders in my set?
15:45<supermop>andythenorth: huh
15:45<V453000>kind of do
15:45<Wolf01>He doesn't want steam, diesel, slow electric trains travel on high speed
15:45<V453000>ok 24/8
15:45<frosch123>currently i like using tank wagons to transport 500° water from reator to outposts
15:45<frosch123>ie.e. you can replace the tender with a tank wagon
15:46<andythenorth>what Wolf01 said
15:46<supermop>andythenorth: but you do want fast trains to go on Rail?
15:46<andythenorth>I don’t understand how to make it work
15:46<andythenorth>railtypes all have to be compatible
15:46<andythenorth>due to convert and auto-replace
15:46<frosch123>andythenorth: but hight speed can travel on RAIL?
15:47<andythenorth>how else can you prevent stuck trains when player drags convert over whole map?
15:47<frosch123>who would do that? :p
15:47<andythenorth>V453000
15:47<frosch123>are you targeting stupid players?
15:47<andythenorth>^^
15:47<frosch123>or competitive ones?
15:47<V453000>just don't prevent it?
15:47<andythenorth>dunno, I’m totally confused about it :P
15:47<V453000>fuck they broke it?
15:48<supermop>andythenorth: also what about steam trains getting stuck if you make everything HSR
15:48<V453000>a solution is providing universal railtype so you can convert whole map to it and unstop all trains
15:48<V453000>I think that usually solves anything
15:48<frosch123>andythenorth: if people replace all tracks at once, they should use tracks with date-dependant graphics
15:48<V453000>admittedly I don't do that often
15:48<V453000>hm, 32/8 engines?
15:48<andythenorth>yes
15:48<frosch123>V453000: don't do csd set
15:48<andythenorth>with cargo capacity V453000
15:49<V453000>they do that shit?
15:49<frosch123>csd has some 5 tile articulated things
15:49<andythenorth>so Horse needs to include universal railtype too? :|
15:49<V453000>haha
15:49<V453000>worry not
15:49<frosch123>which represent some very specific train setup
15:49<andythenorth>but what is point of railtypes then
15:49<V453000>I'll probably fit it into 16/8
15:49<V453000>but drawing out a long badass steamer is just great
15:49<andythenorth>V453000: 24/8 is good
15:49<V453000>no andythenorth 24/8 is fucking trash, you should know better
15:50<V453000>gg
15:50<V453000>victory
15:50<frosch123>http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/csd.png <- V453000: all three of them as single things
15:51<V453000>well I am since forever saying that csd set is bullcrap
15:51<frosch123>they essentially removed wagons, you purchase the whole train at once
15:51<V453000>don't worry I'm not going to do anything stupid like that
15:51<frosch123>maybe andy should do that :)
15:51<V453000>the long part will always be only engine and all engines will be the same length
15:51<andythenorth>V453000: this one isn’t even fake http://sbiii.com/trshdpix/15vgn100.jpg
15:52<V453000>I'm not making NUTS2 but I learned things I won't just throw away :P
15:52<andythenorth>^ 24/8
15:52<V453000>not that great
15:52<V453000>it doesn't even look as a unit properly
15:52<V453000>seems too much like 3
15:53<V453000>OH DAMN
15:53<andythenorth>yeah, but RL is never as good as faked
15:53<V453000>this is going to work
15:53<V453000>YES
15:53<andythenorth>frosch123: ‘purchase the whole train at once’ o_O
15:53<andythenorth>works great for trams
15:53<andythenorth>~all Hog trams same tile length
15:55<andythenorth>V453000: 40/8 http://sbiii.com/bw-gapix/hugebot3.jpg
15:55<V453000>that's the shit andy
15:55<V453000>T H E
15:55<V453000>that's just awesome
15:56<V453000>now make it 16/8
15:56<V453000>guess I have to make vehicles so slim that you will have to zoom in to x4 to see them properly ;P
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15:56<V453000>nah this thing is so long it smells of compensation
15:57<frosch123>narrow gauge?
15:57<V453000>no, normal gauge but just made smaller
15:57<andythenorth>ah stuff like https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6617
15:57<V453000>basically making tiles longer
15:58<V453000>andythenorth: that's what autoreplace and upgrade trains button in depot is for?
15:58<andythenorth>how is railtype upgrading supposed to work?
15:58<V453000>yeah you can't do it from the map but...
15:58*andythenorth never does it
15:58<andythenorth>I can only understand railtypes that are 100% different (except for electrified / not types)
15:59<andythenorth>big puzzles
15:59<andythenorth>solution will be found
16:00<Wolf01>andythenorth: the solution is to give orders to slow train so they won't use the fast tracks
16:00<andythenorth>but how? o_O
16:00<andythenorth>waypoints?
16:00<Wolf01>Waypoints
16:00<andythenorth>not programmable signals?
16:00<Wolf01>I use them a lot in TF
16:01<andythenorth>railtypes can’t have a min. speed?
16:01<frosch123>andythenorth: doesn't jgrpp have route restrictions?
16:01<andythenorth>maybe, I found some magic signals
16:01<andythenorth>didn’t understand them much, UI was odd
16:03<andythenorth>what is problem?
16:03<andythenorth>problem is slow railtype -> fast railtype?
16:03<andythenorth>eh, not, no speed limits used
16:03<Wolf01>Problem is: compatibility works x <-> y
16:03<andythenorth>problem is player mass-converts track, all old trains stuck
16:04<andythenorth>also problem is broken auto-replace
16:04<andythenorth>and no consist management
16:04<andythenorth>consist management solves all known problems
16:04<andythenorth>except for the new ones it will create :P
16:09<Wolf01>Try to fix NRT
16:11<andythenorth>was the ‘ char broken in original TTD?
16:11<andythenorth>for e.g. "’T.I.M’ (Electric)”
16:13*andythenorth looking at original trains for inspiration
16:14<V453000>that's how far he's gotten
16:14<andythenorth>basically it was just solved in 1994
16:15<andythenorth>just needs better graphics
16:15<V453000>1994 graphics are still best
16:15<andythenorth>also how do I autoreplace AsiaStar to monorail?
16:15*andythenorth confused
16:15<V453000>and vanilla vehicles give no variety really
16:15<V453000>you don't
16:16<V453000>that's why grfs like universal rail exist
16:16<andythenorth>universal rail is stupidest thing ever
16:16<andythenorth>why not just have ‘one railtype'
16:16<V453000>feel of big progression step
16:16<V453000>is awesome
16:16<V453000>even with the universal purr in nuts, having monorail and maglev is great
16:16*andythenorth irritated with whole business
16:16<V453000>gives you the feeling like it's something different
16:17<andythenorth>completely unclear goals
16:17<V453000>not to mention that maglev actually does work differently due to no T.E. bullshit
16:17<andythenorth>hmm
16:17<andythenorth>what is goal again?
16:17<andythenorth>draw pixels?
16:17<V453000>idk what is your goal :D
16:18<andythenorth>fuck knows
16:18*andythenorth totally lost
16:18<V453000>my goal is to make the best gameplay train set which builds on what I know from nuts
16:18<Wolf01>Upgrading from rail to monorail to maglev is stupid, just start with maglev
16:18<andythenorth>players asked for faster in Horse
16:18<V453000>Wolf01: yeah but only because it's for such short period and because the monorail vehicles are worthless
16:19<V453000>if it had decent stuff it would be perfectly fine
16:19<andythenorth>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1173170#p1173170
16:19<V453000>in TT I guess it was still good because no maglev
16:20<Wolf01>andythenorth: put a logic train with 9999999.99HP and make everyone happy
16:20<andythenorth>already proposed
16:21<andythenorth>meh
16:21<andythenorth>very hard to make things you will never use
16:21<andythenorth>improper amounts of not-caring
16:23<V453000>I have some engines in nuts which I used just a few times
16:23<V453000>not many though :D
16:23<V453000>oh yeah the monorail MEOW class I used really like twice
16:23<V453000>.... would explain why they don't even have wagons for all cargoes done properly XD
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16:25<V453000>hm
16:25<V453000>scrolling through nuts, the new train set will be glorious, but nuts will always have a place :)
16:25<V453000>it's got something to scroll through the long list of useful engines
16:26<V453000>I'm starting to spew trash
16:26<V453000>gnight :D
16:26<andythenorth>bye V453000
16:26*andythenorth needs Eddi to explain the problem
16:26<andythenorth>usually solves things
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16:49<Eddi|zuHause>what problem?
16:55<Wolf01>You should figure out
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17:07<andythenorth>problem is high speed rail
17:09<andythenorth>problem is boring :P
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>so the problem is that you just don't want to do it?
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17:12<supermop>does horse need it?
17:12<supermop>what roster are you thinking for?
17:13<supermop>or rather, whats the problem in a stray pacer running along HS2 if user error leads it there
17:14<andythenorth>I just don’t see the point of it
17:14<andythenorth>but I don’t want a 125mph -> 180mph speed jump
17:14<andythenorth>without some railtype change
17:16<Eddi|zuHause>you mean high speed rail should be separated from the rest of the network?
17:16<Eddi|zuHause>HS1/Shinkansen/Maglev/...?
17:16<andythenorth>I think you should have to build routes for it
17:16<andythenorth>not just auto-replace
17:16<andythenorth>but it has to be compatible
17:16<andythenorth>so eh
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>the need to build new rails is usually about curve speed
17:19<supermop>if it has to be separate, it is not compatible
17:19<supermop>if you find dedicated HSR boring, then don't bother with it?
17:19<supermop>does IH really have any now?
17:20<andythenorth>no
17:20<supermop>does it need it?
17:21<supermop>in a 'japan' roster, high speed is interesting because it is a new, non-compatible network, completely different in kind and gauge, built from scratch
17:21<supermop>in a UK roster, its really just 'the same track but better'
17:21<andythenorth>how does that solve the convert bug?
17:22<andythenorth>or the autoreplace problem?
17:22<supermop>what is the bug?
17:22<andythenorth>stuck trains
17:22<supermop>what is the problem?
17:22<Eddi|zuHause>that's not a bug, that's a user error
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17:22<Eddi|zuHause>like crashing trains from removing signals
17:23<supermop>if you want to force user to build a new route, then they should build new routes
17:23<FLHerne>It should just be impossible to convert tracks to an incompatible type :P
17:23<supermop>not convert and auto replace
17:23<FLHerne>Not an error, just ignore it, so you can do mass-conversions of other types by area
17:23<supermop>if you want user to incrementally upgrade, then they can convert and auto replace
17:23<supermop>neither is really a problem
17:23<supermop>you just can't do it both ways
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>you can ultimately not force your playstyle on the players
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>everyone will bring their own spin to it
17:24<supermop>because you are saying " all trains must be red" and also " trains can be blue"
17:25<andythenorth>I don’t want to force playstyle
17:25<andythenorth>but game is broken
17:25<supermop>why?
17:26<andythenorth>stuck trains
17:26<andythenorth>it’s even in the wiki
17:26<supermop>you can't upgrade a rail line to monorail in TTO
17:26<supermop>trains can get stuck by missing wires
17:26<andythenorth>https://wiki.openttd.org/Electrified_railways
17:26<supermop>wrong way signals
17:26<andythenorth>"Extreme care must be exercised when upgrading ordinary rail to electrified rail as it is very difficult to spot small pieces of non-electrified rail that you may have missed (especially since track with a train on it will not be upgraded)."
17:26<supermop>missing piece of track
17:26<supermop>deadlocked junctions
17:27<supermop>ok but you said hsr should be new routes
17:27<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that sentence seems like 10 years outdated
17:27*andythenorth wonders why Horse 1 doesn’t have this problem
17:27<andythenorth>supermop: if it’s new routes, then can’t auto-replace
17:27<Eddi|zuHause>we allowed conversion of rails to electric when train is on them ages ago
17:27<supermop>is it 'new right of way' or is it 'same track but better'
17:28<supermop>andythenorth: i don't see the problem in that sentence
17:28<andythenorth>dunno
17:28<andythenorth>problem is unmeetable goals
17:28<andythenorth>also https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6617
17:29<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i think your "goals" are both too fluid to pin down and too contradictory to reconcile
17:29<supermop>ok put it this way - what is the reason to forbid a slow standard gauge train on a fast standard gauge track
17:29<andythenorth>they are paradoxical afaict
17:29<andythenorth>or oxymoronic
17:29<andythenorth>supermop: none
17:30<supermop>there is a reason, but it's not clear that you want it,
17:30<andythenorth>so why have the extra railtype?
17:30<supermop>reason being to force players to build a new network type
17:30<andythenorth>it adds nothing, just makes railtype menu longer
17:30<Eddi|zuHause>realism/variety/maintenance costs/...
17:30<supermop>andythenorth: pay more $ for more speed
17:30<andythenorth>hmm
17:31<andythenorth>and breaking autoreplace
17:31<andythenorth>and leaving stuck trains
17:31<andythenorth>meh :)
17:31<supermop>if you are just going to drag convert rail tool over whole map i dont think you are going to care about other features of the grf
17:32<andythenorth>https://bugs.openttd.org/task/455
17:32<andythenorth>https://bugs.openttd.org/task/4774
17:34<Eddi|zuHause>so, anyone got any suggestion for the least interesting election in recent history?
17:34<andythenorth>who wins?
17:34<supermop>andythenorth: http://bae.se/bilder/2008/W080317-007.JPG
17:34<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: all of them
17:35<supermop>here is a slow vehicle that somehow manages to drive on a fast rail
17:35<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: and at the same time none of them
17:35<andythenorth>supermop: agreed, but the railtypes in Horse have no speed limits
17:35<andythenorth>the speed is in the trains
17:36<andythenorth>and if the trains have to be cross-compatible, why bother with the new railtype?
17:36<supermop>then there is no reason for a separate HSR railtype
17:36<andythenorth>ok
17:36<andythenorth>this was my confusion
17:36<supermop>think of it less as a maglev
17:36<supermop>and more like an HST
17:36<andythenorth>so no fast trains in Horse
17:36<supermop>ECML is just regular rail, happens to be pretty straight
17:37<supermop>so a faster regular train can drive faster on it than on a curvy track
17:37<andythenorth>also not very fast
17:37<andythenorth>realism is intervening
17:37<andythenorth>UK trains don’t go above 125mph, except on HS1
17:38<supermop>yeah but from a horse point of view, HS1 is just like the ECML, but maybe straighter and flatter
17:38<andythenorth>so what’s the conclusion?
17:38<supermop>ballast, wire tension, rail welds dont show up in termite
17:38<andythenorth>199mph trains or not?
17:38<supermop>sure why not
17:39<andythenorth>seems like a huge jump, 125mph -> 199mph
17:39<Eddi|zuHause>what are the reasons against adding a fast train (without new railtype)?
17:39<supermop>in TTO the asia star runs fine on ELRL so long as you give it room to accelerate
17:39<andythenorth>just the progression jump
17:39<andythenorth>sticks out as weird
17:39<andythenorth>most generations gain 15mph
17:39<supermop>progression can be annoying
17:39<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 199/125
17:39<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 1.592
17:40<Eddi|zuHause>60% boost?
17:40<andythenorth>then suddenly 74mph jump
17:40<Eddi|zuHause>what's that boost % for the other generations?
17:40<supermop>once your network is dense, its probably not worth reworking everything for 15mph
17:40<andythenorth>@calc 125/110
17:40<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 1.13636363636
17:40<andythenorth>@calc 110/95
17:40<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 1.15789473684
17:40<andythenorth>@calc 95/80
17:40<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 1.1875
17:41<supermop>also UK trains could do 100mph in the 30s, and that top speed held for decades
17:41<supermop>not a big problem
17:41<Eddi|zuHause>@calc sqrt(199/125)
17:41<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 1.26174482365
17:41<Eddi|zuHause>so you're essentially missing a generation inbetween
17:41<andythenorth>logically yes
17:41<Eddi|zuHause>then it should be fine
17:41<supermop>HST is faster bc its gets to 125mph faster, and routing lets it stay there, not because of the 25 more mph
17:42<andythenorth>so how fast for gen 6 (2020) ?
17:42<andythenorth>gen 5 will be 125mph
17:42<supermop>how fast do trains go now
17:42<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 125*1.25
17:42<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 156.25
17:42<andythenorth>RL? 125mph / 186mph
17:43<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 125*1.25**2
17:43<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 195.3125
17:43<andythenorth>upgrades are coming on stream for 140mph / 199mph
17:43<supermop>idk uk trains were supposed to go 150mph in the 80s
17:43<andythenorth>they were
17:43<Eddi|zuHause>so 125, 155 and 195 would be logical steps
17:43<andythenorth>but the money wasn’t there
17:43<Eddi|zuHause>each 25% faster than the one before
17:43<andythenorth>and now the paths wouldn’t be there
17:43<andythenorth>140mph train paths are a PITA, braking distances etc
17:44<supermop>yeah
17:44<andythenorth>and any preceeding trains have to get over the network without delay
17:44<supermop>that's your new route
17:44<supermop>its not the $$$ track, its just a line free of slower traffic, if you want it to be
17:44<andythenorth>nah, I can’t see how new routes using types can ever work in OpenTTD
17:44<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 125*1.6
17:44<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 200
17:44<supermop>thats what im saying
17:44<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 155*1.6
17:44<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 248
17:44<andythenorth>you mean just don’t route slow trains on it?
17:44<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 195*1.6
17:44<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 312
17:45<supermop>new and old routes are both RAIL
17:45<supermop>just if your old rail cant fit a train running 200mph on it, you build a new one
17:45<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: 125, 155, 195 is remarkably close to RL :P
17:45<andythenorth>ok so is gen 6 140mph, or 199mph?
17:46<andythenorth>horse 1 tops out at 155mph, I’m not sure ‘slower’ in v2 is going to be acceptable
17:46<supermop>the shinkansen being SG, flat, and straight was just a bonus - the point of the project was the literal translation ' new trunk line'
17:46<supermop>because the tokaido trunk line was full
17:46<supermop>the Chuo Maglev is kind of the same
17:46<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, those km/h numbers are also pretty close to the german progression from the BR103 (200km/h, 1970s), ICE1 (280km/h, 1990s) and ICE3 (330km/h, 2010s)
17:47<supermop>500kmh is nice, but really the shinkansen is kind of full
17:47<supermop>so if you need to build a whole new line again, might as well make it maglev
17:48<supermop>in a uk-ish situation, just stick to SG rail
17:48<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: maglev in germany failed, for mostly political reasons
17:48<Wolf01>I'll sleepflix, ping me if required :P
17:48<supermop>in japan its not 'competing' with anything
17:49<supermop>because its being built by the operator of the line it will compete with
17:49<Eddi|zuHause>that was never the problem
17:49<supermop>if DB built the transrapid between two cities because the conventional rail between them was too full, maybe it would have a better shot?
17:50<Eddi|zuHause>the transrapid basically faced 3 problems: 1) it's very expensive, 2) all the NIMBYs, 3) regional politicians wanting in-between stops and reroutings, watering down all the benefits it could have had
17:51<Eddi|zuHause>specifically the planned Berlin-Hamburg line failed on 2+3, and the planned munich airport line failed on 1
17:51<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: chuo shinkanse has the 'benefit' of cutting through less populated areas
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17:52<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: the berlin-hamburg line would have run through mostly empty territory as well
17:52<supermop>so it can stop at every city on the way, and still have fewer stops than the tokaido shinkansen
17:52<Eddi|zuHause>but still, there are politicians ruling those empty areas
17:52<supermop>i guess in japan JR is king
17:52<supermop>and just gets what it wants
17:53<supermop>rather Tokyo and Osaka are powerful enough to ignore prefectures in between
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>the problem with Berlin-Hamburg was the state of Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, the least densely populated of all the german states. they demanded that in exchange for allowing the route through their state, they must add a stop in their capital of Schwerin
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>which isn't on the direct path, making the route longer, and there's really no demand for that either, as it's not a very large city
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>it's not even the largest of the state itself
17:56<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: that empty territory still likely had farms
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>mostly forest and lakes :p
17:56<supermop>yeah, federal system like here
17:57<andythenorth>supermop: nasty compromise. gen 6 at 160mph? :P
17:57<Eddi|zuHause>and a huge exodus of people in the past 25 years
17:57<supermop>why amtrak has to stop in every tiny town it passes
17:57<Eddi|zuHause>basically, nobody lives there anymore except at the coast line
17:58<supermop>in japan, prefectures aren't really in a position to 'allow' or forbid a line through them
17:58<supermop>ok brb
17:59<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, the other problem that line faced was environmentalists
18:00<Eddi|zuHause>because in a countryside that's mostly forest, you're not allowed to cut down even a single tree
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18:15<andythenorth>also bed
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19:38<Eddi|zuHause>huh? i got spam. in chinese...
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22:19<supermop_home>https://imgur.com/a/HUsTU
22:19<supermop_home>should the older steam trucks pull fewer trailers?
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---Logclosed Sat Sep 23 00:00:09 2017