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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-09-23

---Logopened Sat Sep 23 00:00:09 2017
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05:32<andythenorth>V453000: horse is sick again
05:33<andythenorth>such predictable progression
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06:33<andythenorth>engine ‘Growler’ is replaced by upgraded growler 2
06:33<andythenorth>what shall I call it?
06:33<andythenorth>Super Growler?
06:33<andythenorth>Go Growler?
06:33<andythenorth>Growler 2?
06:35<V453000>does that matter right now? :)
06:36<andythenorth>yeah, names are MOST IMPORTANT
06:36<andythenorth>funny thing
06:36<andythenorth>real-life name for this train
06:36<andythenorth>guess what?
06:36<V453000>:D wat
06:40<V453000>no new forum posts, project must be dead
06:41<V453000>k finish last tropic plant, go
06:42<andythenorth>iz dead
06:46<V453000>I'll do toyland super fast I think
06:46<V453000>is it too much if trees look like literal shit?
06:46<V453000>bananas hates just porn and military right?
06:48<andythenorth>poo emoji is valid socially
06:51<andythenorth>Super Slug then?
06:51<andythenorth>then Horse has Slug
06:51<andythenorth>most valid
06:52<V453000>yeah now even personally face-animated shit emoji
06:52<V453000>people looking like shit in real time
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06:55<andythenorth>most horse train names start with letter 's'
06:55<V453000>is fish
06:58<V453000>hm nuts names are pretty well spread
06:58<V453000>not discriminating letters
06:58<V453000>-> iz perfect set
07:00<andythenorth>horse 2
07:00<andythenorth>will be better
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07:32<andythenorth>Slug it is then
07:32<andythenorth>and it’s ID 1000
07:32<andythenorth>so special
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07:57*andythenorth wonders if supermop is awake
08:01<Wolf01> mmh
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08:08<Wolf01>argoneus, Alkel_U3: since you have stellaris and it's discounted on steam, it is worth the purchase?
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08:31<supermop_home>ugh so last night I was kept awake thinking about special liveries to draw for buses
08:33<supermop_home>old timey road trains - too long?
08:33<Alkel_U3>Wolf01: I haven't played it yet but I've been told by many that it's pretty good
08:34<Alkel_U3>though it's Paradox's game, it's prorbably gonna suffer from the DLC syndrome :-)
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08:42<andythenorth>supermop_home: looks about right
08:42<andythenorth>tractor unit could use a bit of work, needs to look more grunty
08:42<andythenorth>but also older
08:43<andythenorth>I’d snick the cab back 1px
08:43<supermop_home>seems wrong for the steam tractor to pull same amount as petrol and diesel truck
08:43<andythenorth>is it same speed?
08:43<andythenorth>or slower?
08:43<supermop_home>tractor is 1870-ish
08:43<supermop_home>and quite slow
08:43<andythenorth>slower, same capacity is fine
08:43<supermop_home>steam truck is 1900 ish, black truck is 1910 or 15
08:44<supermop_home>maybe it was 1870, 1890, 1910, 1930?
08:45<supermop_home>with the rigid trucks, the first petrol truck is weaker and hauls less than the steam truck, but is cheaper and faster
08:45<supermop_home>then the following diesel trucks are all stronger, faster, etc
08:46<supermop_home>road train loses the small and fast vs slow and large split because they are all large
08:48<Wolf01><Alkel_U3> though it's Paradox's game, it's prorbably gonna suffer from the DLC syndrome :-) <- yeah, that's why I would like to wait until they end releasing the DLCs, but the digital anniversary edition is tempting
08:49<Alkel_U3>They still sell separate DLCs for Europa Universalis IV if I'm not mistaken
08:49<Alkel_U3>or is there a broad package already?
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08:51<Wolf01>The digital anniversary comes with all the released DLCs, EUIV has the "collection" package which comes with everything and with 58% discount is at 117€
08:53<Alkel_U3>That is some price. I'd rather buy a beer keg.
08:54<andythenorth>supermop_home: first generation sometimes lacks a clear pattern for evolution eh
08:56<supermop_home>well the petrol tractor will have similar power to the petrol truck. if player wants to force it up hills with three trailers that is their choice
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08:58<supermop_home>also ive found when playing with mountainous TAI villages and ViV GS, could use a late game tiny bus
09:00<argoneus>Wolf01: stellaris is great
09:00<argoneus>but you either need the major dlc or play with someone who has them
09:00<argoneus>utopia > synthetic dawn > leviathan in order of importance
09:01<argoneus>the rest is whatever
09:02<Wolf01>What is the gameplay? Like endless space or more like homeworld?
09:02<argoneus>I haven't played either wew
09:02<argoneus>it's realtime
09:02<argoneus>you have a planet that you develop
09:02<argoneus>and you can explore other planets and send stuff there
09:02<argoneus>I'd compare it to
09:02<argoneus>civ without turns?
09:03<argoneus>sins of a solar empire maybe
09:03<argoneus>so homeworld-ish I guess
09:03<Wolf01>Oh, ok
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09:11<andythenorth>roster nearly done eh
09:11<andythenorth>just need some stupid fast trains now
09:11<andythenorth>fastest train there is 125mph, needs a gen 6 at 140mph or 165mph
09:11<supermop_home>locomotive or EMU>?
09:12<frosch123>finally an exciting mail to info@
09:12<andythenorth>supermop_home: EMU definitely, or bi-mode
09:13<andythenorth>loco, maybe, we’d have to invent it
09:13<supermop_home>put pointy end on the cargo sprinter
09:13<andythenorth>EMU could be class 800 or pendolino or so
09:13<supermop_home>replace the container with a passenger coach
09:13<Wolf01><frosch123> finally an exciting mail to info@ <- a cease and desist?
09:14<frosch123>no, compile farm activity
09:15*andythenorth bbl
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09:26<Arveen>is there a option to make the ottd window non-resizable ?
09:27<Arveen>while beeing windowed
09:28<Wolf01>I think not. What is the problem with resizing the window?
09:29<Arveen>I want to stream it and want to avoid accidently resizes
09:30<Arveen>so it's always in fitting ratio
09:43<frosch123>is the horse roster a representation of andy's mind? the engines start with R names and slowly transition into V names
09:44<@Alberth>doesn't seem likely that andy moves to 32bpp :p
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10:04<andythenorth>frosch123: quite plausible
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10:08<andythenorth>frosch123: railtype in depot, TMWFTLB?
10:08*andythenorth has engines with variable power by railtype
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10:13<frosch123>andythenorth: when do you build trains in a depot?
10:13<frosch123>it fails for all advanced use cases which you are dreaming of :) like autoreplace, consist replace, ...
10:13<frosch123>everything that builds trains without a specific depot
10:13<andythenorth>yup ok
10:14<andythenorth>so cb23?
10:14<andythenorth>even that might be TMWFTLB
10:18<Wolf01>Mmmh, I should figure out how to play minecraft split screen on pc
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10:31<Wolf01>I don't think the pc supports the splitscreen mode even if there are all the settings :(
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13:52<Wolf01>I think I found the "will of go outside", now I need to find the "will of remain outside"
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14:09<Eddi|zuHause>nothing good ever happened outside
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14:57<andythenorth>V453000: Horse all fucked again
14:59<V453000>XD wtf
14:59<V453000>honestly lately I am realizing that making plans is all great and stuff, but to a point
14:59<V453000>like, I have a very solid plan with all details
15:00<V453000>but it's likely that the details are going to change anyway when I start making graphics
15:00<V453000>so I stop with planning for now
15:00<V453000>I have the concept, vehicles 16/8, wagons 8/8
15:00<V453000>now just make graphics and adapt on the fly
15:00<V453000>maybe you can consider doing something similar
15:00<V453000>if you feel like drawing 2020 engine, well, just do it :)
15:00<V453000>if not, meh
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15:04<V453000>I thought I will fuck with toyland fast and easy
15:04<V453000>trying to make all trees look like the plastic balls in kids playing courts
15:04<V453000>shit failed :D
15:04<V453000>need to do something more proper
15:06<V453000>iz bad
15:07<andythenorth>V453000: do brio trees
15:07<V453000>well that's basically how brix trees look in general :D
15:07<andythenorth>or such
15:08<V453000>I'm thinknig mushrooms atm
15:08<andythenorth>oops bad paste
15:09<frosch123>just rename the climate to australia, use the regular brix temperte sprites, and put them upside down
15:09*andythenorth has length problems :P
15:10<frosch123>don't worry, diameter is more important
15:10<frosch123>(i think i already said that the other day)
15:10<andythenorth>why are wagon speed limits?
15:10<andythenorth>why don’t I cb36 the engine speed instead?
15:11<V453000>I was actually considering doing trees which look like tree roots underground
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15:11<V453000>basically upside down but looking from the bottom
15:12<frosch123> <- those?
15:13<frosch123> <- most weird tree in general
15:13<frosch123> <- also, mix in some giraffes
15:13<andythenorth>serious trees
15:15<V453000>yeah what the fuck it's trees
15:15<V453000>I'm thinking more about mushrooms with eyes
15:15<V453000>possibly mouths
15:15<frosch123> <- trees also have mouths
15:16<frosch123> <- but sure, you can also go the mushroom route :p
15:17<frosch123> <- ...
15:17<frosch123>damn... "gartenzwerg pilz" definitely gives some disturbing images
15:25<V453000>might need to think about this for a bit
15:25*andythenorth also
15:25<V453000>but shrooms, snails and other random shit might work
15:26<andythenorth>why I haz 6/8 small engine?
15:26<andythenorth>is problems
15:27<V453000>that's fine just add a 2/8 tail :P
15:27<andythenorth>such ideas
15:28<andythenorth>or more lengths of wagons
15:28<andythenorth>but multiple lengths + shit ton of extra generations to keep V453000 happy
15:28<andythenorth>= lot of wagons :|
15:33<V453000>XD wtf.
15:37<andythenorth>seriously considering wagons where speed limit changes at some year
15:37<andythenorth>instead of spamming buy menu
15:37<andythenorth>main thing is graphics don’t need to change, so why new vehicle?
15:38<V453000>I really don't see the point of wagon speed limit gameplay wise
15:38<frosch123>why limit speed at all? just limit engine power?
15:38<V453000>just makes all design of engines invalid because power and TE suddenly only matters
15:39<V453000>well poorly accelerating trains are a hell to play with imo
15:39<V453000>like Lev4
15:40<andythenorth>if speed isn’t limited, just choose fastest engine
15:41<andythenorth>it’s a one-engine newgrf
15:41<andythenorth>like NARS 2 and so
15:41<andythenorth>I don’t mind what players do btw, they can turn limits off
15:42*andythenorth seriously considers dropping wagon speed limits
15:42<andythenorth>but then also…why have wagon generations?
15:42<andythenorth>always unlimited
15:42<andythenorth>so no need for upgrades
15:45<V453000>quite the opposite
15:46<V453000>if you limit the speed, all trains will be running at, say, 100kmh ... so it only matters how fast it gets to that speed
15:46<V453000>which is just power
15:46<andythenorth>nuts is just one wagon, right?
15:46<V453000>while if you have all variables of power, TE, and speed, you are making a decision between all of them
15:46*andythenorth only saw one last time played nuts
15:46<V453000>more wagons is just a visual thing really
15:46<V453000>unless they differ in loading speed and capacity drastically
15:46<andythenorth>is eye candy
15:47<andythenorth>always use fastest engine
15:47<andythenorth>just add moar if needed
15:47<V453000>eye candy can be 1 wagon with random switches all over the place
15:47<V453000>well if the fastest engine is weak enough in power, saturated network will always do better with stronger trains
15:48<andythenorth>always use AsiaStar for coal
15:48<V453000>yes because SH40 is too slow/not strong enough in comparison
15:49<V453000>because vanilla is just basically 1 linear progression without classes
15:51<andythenorth>V453000: in nuts, why not always use The Ultimate?
15:51<andythenorth>it’s pretty ultimate
15:51<andythenorth>seems boss for coal
15:53<V453000>in that case, wagon connect rules
15:53<V453000>can only haul express wagons
15:53<andythenorth>oh that’s wtf :)
15:53<V453000>which isn't that great of a feature
15:53<andythenorth>also you’re changing wagon capacity with engine?
15:53<V453000>in my defence it's quite common in other grfs
15:53<V453000>but doesn't mean it's great
15:53<andythenorth>you went full on wtf
15:53<V453000>yeah probably
15:53<V453000>there's a shitload of switches all over the place
15:53<andythenorth>I considered that to force express / freight split instead of wagon speeds
15:53<andythenorth>but I ruled it out without trying it
15:54<andythenorth>is good or bad?
15:54<andythenorth>be quite easy “this engine can’t haul freight"
15:54<V453000>you mean changing wagon stats or connection rules?
15:54<andythenorth>connection rules
15:54<V453000>I'm not sure honestly
15:54<V453000>I think if you don't over do it like in nuts, it's really fine
15:54<V453000>like simple express/freight separation is totally ok
15:55<andythenorth>I can’t turn it off?
15:55<V453000>but in nuts you have monorail wagons can't fit to those engines, those different monorail wagons can't fit to the other engines, etc
15:55<V453000>only with parameter
15:55<andythenorth>NEED PARAMETER
15:55<V453000>but if you do it reasonably, it's not the end of the world
15:55<V453000>honestly it works perfectly fine in URKS
15:56<V453000>you have eurostar or how it's called there, 289km/h, pax only
15:56<V453000>is fine
15:56<andythenorth>so how do I have totally boss coal train in NUTS?
15:56<V453000>the question I have been asking myself recently is why to actually have this difference, it's basically realism and awesomeness in terms of realism
15:56<V453000>you don't have a totally boss train in NUTS
15:56<V453000>some are faster but have less capacity (maglev)
15:57<V453000>some are slower but more capacity and amazing acceleration (rail strong/superstrong)
15:57<andythenorth>maglec is quite boss
15:57<V453000>it took many months to balance it out
15:57<andythenorth>maglev *
15:57<V453000>maglev is boss but 22 cargo per 8/8 is low
15:57<andythenorth>oh yeah
15:57<andythenorth>hmm ok
15:58<andythenorth>helps, but doesn’t solve my problem
15:58<V453000>capacity is a good way to balance things out
15:58<andythenorth>I assumed you just didn’t enforce classes
15:58<andythenorth>but you do
15:58<andythenorth>maybe we’re wrong
15:58<V453000>I understand because you are keeping them on the same railtype
15:58<V453000>but you can look at just rail vehicles in nuts
15:58<V453000>there is superstrong, strong, medium and fast
15:58<V453000>all with same wagons
15:59<V453000>I can show you 4 networks which will be different, and each of them will only have 1 answer to best train
15:59<V453000>and each of these answers will be different
16:00<V453000>superstrong will rule with long trains, strong will rule with ultra short trains, medium will be best somewhere in the middle/universally for generally unspecific networks, and fast will be good only if your network doesn't have dense traffic, no short curves, not many uphills(especially merging junctions on uphill), etc
16:00<V453000>you don't need to balance "all of the engines are equal on a straight track"
16:01<V453000>that would mean the player chooses based on random taste, which isn't that interesting
16:01<V453000>the other classes in nuts add to this, not necessarily be competitive
16:02<V453000>of course, only a handful of players know the differences, I even dare to say that nobody knows about the uses for every single class in nuts
16:03<Eddi|zuHause>why would they? everyone has their favourite style of network
16:03<Eddi|zuHause>so naturally he will favour the engines that excell in that network
16:03<Eddi|zuHause>and sorta ignore the rest
16:03<V453000>most expert players actually like to build differently every game
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>(assuming that they actually care)
16:04<V453000>just because of fun from variety
16:04<V453000>with nuts or without it
16:04<V453000>doing the same over and over again for many years isn't very exciting
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>ok, "most" is prbably exaggerated
16:04<V453000>depends how you define expert :P
16:05<Eddi|zuHause>and they probably change *something*, not necessarily *everything*
16:05<V453000>but it's enough to justify any other train class
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>well, there are probably loads of players who would be considered "expert" by people totally outside your "target audience"
16:09<V453000>I'm not saying everyone has to use all various possible network types all the time?
16:10<V453000>I was just trying to say that even the people who build with large variety don't really know the maximum possible utilization of all nuts trains, although several of them are very close
16:10<andythenorth>1860-2020 is a terrible idea in a grf
16:10*andythenorth should stop
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>what's wrong with that?
16:11<V453000>of course especially if someone builds in a way where he isn't trying to build a big network, his criteria for choosing a train will differ to an extent where any balancing is pointless
16:11<andythenorth>balancing is pointless :)
16:11<andythenorth>but it has to be done
16:11<V453000>to an extent, as long as all vehicles have some use, it's enough :)
16:12<andythenorth>Hog balances trucks, trams, HAUL
16:12<andythenorth>seems ok
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16:12<andythenorth>but then for RVs, fast express can’t just haul coal eh?
16:12<andythenorth>trains are mess
16:13<andythenorth>bus can go super fast, but no coal
16:13<V453000>I think wagon connecting rules for express trains are totally fine
16:13<andythenorth>pax tram super-high-density, but no coal
16:13<V453000>I'm not going to use them in my train set, but that's just because of other full wtf mode
16:14<andythenorth>I think result of connection rules is same as wagon speed limit
16:14<andythenorth>it’s just implemented differently
16:14<V453000>not really
16:14<andythenorth>still no 300mph coal train
16:14<V453000>it's just a forced split into 2 classes but you still work with all the variables a train can have
16:14<V453000>yeah but in the selection of coal trains, the max speed matters more
16:15<V453000>with wagon speed limit it's super binary, max speed of wagons reached Y/N, sort by highest power and TE
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>in really ancient DBSets, there was no wagon speed limits and wagon attachment rules, making people do ICE trains with coal
16:16<V453000>a "nice" part is when you have different speed limits for different cargoes, it can mean you can afford to use a slower train with some of them , but then there is the whole issue with different speed trains on the same network which is just bad
16:16<andythenorth>I like to have 2 speeds on network
16:16<andythenorth>fast and slow
16:16<V453000>yes that's why I think using basic connection rules is good for express engines like ICE
16:16<andythenorth>messes up network, but in manageable way
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>in "current" DBset you have forced attachment rules, and optional wagonspeedlimits
16:17<andythenorth>wagon speed limits are always optional :)
16:17<andythenorth>attachment rules are maybe boring, not sure
16:17<V453000>are they? I think canadian grf was doing some weird shit which didn't make it that optional
16:17<andythenorth>canadian grf died :P
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: i think it modified the engine speed instead
16:18<V453000>attachment rules can become a tangled mess of unintuitive horde of error messages, if you do it in the huge extent like NUTS does
16:18<V453000>yes I think so Eddi
16:18<V453000>well, I gtfo
16:18<V453000>thinking about trees to be done
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>i think there are ways to trick the attachment rules
16:19<V453000>yes if the leading engine doesn't define them
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>because they only ask A whether it allows attaching B, not B whether it allows attaching to A
16:19*andythenorth considers options
16:19<andythenorth>- attachment rules
16:20<andythenorth>- mess with engine speed depending on cargo
16:20<V453000>yes it's what the "invisible leading engine" grf was causing
16:20<andythenorth>- variable wagon speed limits
16:20<V453000>if you just make it the leading engine, you can connect anything
16:20<andythenorth>- enforce speed by requiring caboose, speed limit only applies to caboose, cabeese get faster per generation
16:20<andythenorth>- ??
16:21<andythenorth>- lots and lots of wagons in buy menu
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: how do you justify a caboose in modern trains?
16:21<andythenorth>yeah no
16:21<andythenorth>you don’t
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>you can't really solve a 2020 balancing problem with 1890 technology
16:21<andythenorth>problem is that 3 generations of engine in IH 1 has grown to 6
16:21<V453000>how do you justify a slug in modern brains :)
16:22<andythenorth>Slug = true for IH 2
16:22<andythenorth>now correct
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: you mean like ?
16:23<V453000>could be
16:23<V453000>anyway, gnight
16:29<andythenorth>bye v
16:39<Wolf01>Went outside for 2 hours, is something...
16:50<andythenorth>if wagon speed limits change over time, I can use just 2 generations plausible
16:51<andythenorth>plausibly *
16:51<andythenorth>but how to explain it in buy menu?
16:53<frosch123>you can only change properties based on purchase date
16:53<frosch123>not on current date
16:53<frosch123>some sets use "last servicing date" though
16:54<Wolf01>Which makes sense
16:54<andythenorth>purchase date has an autoreplace problem :)
16:54<frosch123>if you change it based on purchase date, it's essentially the same as a new wagon while removing the old one from the list at the same time
16:55<andythenorth>also it’s weird for the network if a bunch of trains get faster on an arbitrary date
16:56<frosch123>well, tie it to the engine then
16:56<frosch123>give engines different speed limits depending on the cargo they are hauling
16:57<andythenorth>worth testing I think
16:57<frosch123>engine technology defined wagon technology, no need to separate/mix them
16:57<andythenorth>dropping wagon speed limits would be useful
17:00*andythenorth should sleep on it eh :)
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17:13<Wolf01>So I'm back at the same old point... what could I do now? Sleepflix?
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17:47<TrueBrain>any of you any decent knowledge of MSVC? And why OpenTTD for example targets .NET Framework 2.0? And what .NET has to do with a C++ project? :D
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17:49<Eddi|zuHause>that does seem weird
17:52<TrueBrain>msvcrt100.dll, as example, the runtime library, contains .NET code .....
17:52<TrueBrain>failwhale coming by
17:52<TrueBrain>stay clear
17:52<TrueBrain>Microsoft at work :D
17:54<Wolf01>The .NET libraries are automatically referenced, I removed the references from the OTTD project and replaced with the OTTD libraries alone and it compiled fine
17:54<TrueBrain>you cannot disable the TargetFrameworkVersion :(
17:55<TrueBrain>not sure what happens if I force it to 4.6.1 (VS2017)
17:55<TrueBrain>VS always has been a mistery to me :D
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18:00<TrueBrain>well, it linked after install the TargetingPack for 4.0 ..
18:00<TrueBrain>but now settings_gen.exe failed to execute ... lol
18:03<TrueBrain>this Docker for Windows is such an unstable mess and collection of brokenness ...
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18:07<TrueBrain>copy/pasting inside a Docker only gives a partial paste result :D
18:07<TrueBrain>briliant! :D
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18:26<TrueBrain>lol; settings_gen.exe is not allowed to rename a file .. but copy+delete does work :D
18:35<TrueBrain>lol; I had to copy the folder in order for it to work .. it only fails on a mounted folder ... owh well, OpenTTD compiles under Windows with MSVC2017 in Docker :D
18:38<TrueBrain>it fails on something LordAro did :D
18:38<TrueBrain>adding a VS2017 flag, but not adding the project to switch a flag to make that not error :D
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18:42<LordAro>TrueBrain: uwot
18:42<TrueBrain>(fallthrough, the project needs to be told it needs c++11 :D)
18:43<TrueBrain>but there are no VS2017 project files
18:43<TrueBrain>so I guess it was a local thingy :D
18:43<TrueBrain>euh, even c++latest
18:44<TrueBrain>weird, as fallthrough is part of c++11 .. but it needs c++latest on VS2017 :D
18:46<TrueBrain>how do I tell this via msbuild .. hmmmmmmm
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18:51<TrueBrain>well, why would they document how to do that ....
18:54<TrueBrain>ah, LanguageStandard
18:57<TrueBrain>seems I really need project files to get this working :D
19:02<TrueBrain>had to downgrade till before that patch to get something less error-ish :D
19:02<TrueBrain>welcome to the undocumented world of Microsoft!! *facepalm*
19:07<TrueBrain>yippie, it now really is only missing openttd-useful :D :D
19:08<TrueBrain> :)
19:08<TrueBrain>*does a happy dance*
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---Logclosed Sun Sep 24 00:00:10 2017