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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-09-27

---Logopened Wed Sep 27 00:00:14 2017
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01:55<andythenorth>o/
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02:24<crem>\o
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04:52<andythenorth>integer lengths
04:52<andythenorth>as long as the integer is 5 :P
04:52<andythenorth>or 2
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05:42<V453000>I started making detailed power/speed/TE tables :D shit's nuts
05:43<V453000>andy's got into another vehicle length mess? :P
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07:38<Wolf01>o/
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08:50<__ln__>Wolf01: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/25/wolves-discovered-living-just-outside-rome-first-time-century/
08:51<Wolf01>Nice
08:51<Flygon>Wait.
08:51<Flygon>The UK use to have Beavers? O_O
08:53<Wolf01>Yes, we have them too
08:53<Flygon>Woah.
08:53<Flygon>(Still waiting for Tassie Devils to make a sudden resurgence >_>)
08:53<Flygon>(Er, Tassie Tigers)
08:54<__ln__>freudian slip?
08:54<Flygon>Huh?
08:54<Flygon>"Conservation groups are campaigning for wolves to be reintroduced to Britain, along with brown bears and lynx. Beavers have already been successfully reestablished in some parts of the country."
08:54<Wolf01>But I think they intend nutrias and not really the american beavers
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09:53<supermop_>pretty sure UK never had nutrias
09:54<supermop_>Wolf01: did you move to outside rome?
09:54<Wolf01>Oh, there are enough wolves in the alps too
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10:18<andythenorth>horse http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8642/horse_such.png
10:19<V453000>train 6 wagons are fucking awesome
10:19<andythenorth>they’re just Hog trucks on train wheels
10:19<andythenorth>but yes
10:19<V453000>doesn't matter :)
10:19<Wolf01>Yeah
10:20<andythenorth>currently every generation is getting ‘short’ and ‘long’
10:20<andythenorth>it might be great
10:20<andythenorth>or it might be total shit
10:20<andythenorth>not sure yet
10:20<Wolf01>The grey hoppers look a bit strange
10:22<andythenorth>such realism
10:22<andythenorth>https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5585/15179570802_7819652463_z.jpg
10:23<andythenorth>these would be good http://www.emgauge70s.co.uk/wibdenshaw_hop21-05.jpg
10:24<andythenorth>or even these :P https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/21/Hopper_wagons_on_Talyllyn_Railway_-_2009-01-01.jpg
10:29*andythenorth is confused
10:29<andythenorth>assuming ‘short’ and ‘long’ doesn’t suck
10:29<andythenorth>it it just about making integer lengths, so both versions should look very similar?
10:29<andythenorth>or is it about variety of graphics, so should be different?
10:29*andythenorth puzzled
11:04<supermop_>similar but different
11:04<supermop_>should be identifiable as being related, but distinct
11:05<supermop_>finally drew some 1870s-1910s trams last night
11:10<andythenorth>hmm
11:10<andythenorth>so if the gestalt is different, that’s a different wagon class
11:10<andythenorth>the length thing is just a detail about making trains of integer length
11:11<supermop_>can't decide if roof should be dark or light, if steam boilers should be visible, when/if sides should should get enclosed
11:11<andythenorth>screenshot? o_O
11:12<supermop_>at 4x?
11:12<andythenorth>:P
11:18<Wolf01>Wow a new patch for TF
11:18<Wolf01>"The patch aims to make your player's life easier by introducing several usability enhancements."
11:19<Wolf01>"Thanks to new fully-functional scroll bars, handling user interface components such as the line manager will be much easier" :D :D :D
11:19<andythenorth>scroll bars :)
11:19<Wolf01>Ok, only bugfixes, scalable UI, and the scrollbars
11:31<supermop_>andythenorth: 4x neighest neighbor
11:31<supermop_>https://imgur.com/a/Yxfsp
11:32<supermop_>same with light roof: https://imgur.com/a/N894L
11:34<supermop_>top to bottom: 4/8 open side tram, 3/8 open sided tram, 4/8 enclosed side tram (end platforms open), 5/8 enclosed side tram, 4/8 with windsheild, 5/8 with windsheild
11:36<supermop_>currently, electric trams are open sided 4 and enclosed 5
11:36<supermop_>steam are open 3 and enclosed 4
11:36<andythenorth>dark roof / light roof is potato / potato
11:36<supermop_>electric with trailer is open 4+3
11:37<supermop_>might transition from dark to light based on build year
11:38<supermop_>will probably have a switch to switch from open to closed, and open end to windshield based on build year
11:41<supermop_>light dark doesn't make sense as progression of technology
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11:41<supermop_>idk what looks better
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11:49<supermop_>This leave generation 'D' - pointy 70s trams, and generation 'G' - sleek near future trams as the only left to be drawn
11:50<supermop_>although 'C' - late 40s through early 60s still needs work as currently i think they are the most blase looking
11:50<supermop_>just look like cans or pills
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11:57<andythenorth>hmm
11:57<andythenorth>brain ache
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11:59<andythenorth>too many variables
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12:07<supermop_>"C" generation:
12:07<supermop_>https://imgur.com/a/Ia2lh
12:08<supermop_>needs doors, better 2cc livery, maybe a non cc roof
12:08<andythenorth>characterful
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12:22<supermop_>i assume you are being facetious
12:22<supermop_>this guy is probably the worst offendor with noise
12:23<supermop_>but its got just so much expanse of sheet metal
12:23<supermop_>2cc window band might help,
12:29<andythenorth>nah, genuinely has character, wasn’t being facetious
12:29<andythenorth>less noise though
12:30<supermop_>next is drawing a style based on this: http://www.theage.com.au/content/dam/images/g/o/4/o/7/h/image.related.articleLeadwide.620x349.go4n4c.png/1460570356378.jpg
12:31<supermop_>general euro style tapered PCC derivative
12:32<supermop_>actually might not need it if i can get the noise cans to look better
12:34<supermop_>drawing the taper in / and \ is going to be a pain
12:34<supermop_>so might just avoid it
12:35<Eddi|zuHause>these things always look weird to me... trams of that size would have 3 doors around here
12:36<Eddi|zuHause>something like this: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Leipzig_Tatra_T4D_pair,_June_1993.jpg
12:39<supermop_>Eddi|zuHause: the follow-on orders in that class had 3 doors
12:39<supermop_>the lead order did not and was seen as something of a failure
12:40<supermop_>by the time i lived in melbourne, only like 20 Z1s were still running, and those only because ridership was growing faster than old trams could be replaced
12:41*andythenorth has schema problems
12:42<andythenorth>short and long versions of every wagon is stupid
12:43*Wolf01 => pub
12:43<supermop_>i only have 2 trams mapped out for 60s-70s tapered style
12:43<andythenorth>short and long works for the totall generic types (box, open, flat)
12:43<supermop_>maybe not worth drawing
12:43<andythenorth>and for tankers, where there is no alternative type
12:43<andythenorth>all other types…one length would be better
12:43<Eddi|zuHause>maybe you should finally consider dropping the integer length requirement that nobody ever asked for? :p
12:44<andythenorth>nah, I want to win that game
12:44<andythenorth>it’s personal
12:44<andythenorth>also, I asked for it :P
12:44<andythenorth>I am deliberately choosing hard mode, with some 6/8 engines and wagons
12:46*andythenorth considers ‘Coal Car’, ‘Ore Car’, “Aggregate Car’ etc
12:47<andythenorth>and one length per each
12:47<andythenorth>seems less arbitrary
12:51<andythenorth>but eh
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13:02<andythenorth>what does a ‘Coal Car’ refit to then?
13:04<@peter1138>Coal.
13:06<andythenorth>isn’t it
13:06<andythenorth>clue in the name?
13:08<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: need a new cargo property: density
13:08<andythenorth>can be faked with capacity on cb36 :P
13:09<Eddi|zuHause>but you need the coal car for density <X and the ore car for density >X
13:09<Eddi|zuHause>and whatever aggregate is...
13:09<andythenorth>it’s an option
13:10<Eddi|zuHause>and "fake with CB36" is not an option for future unknown cargos
13:10<@peter1138>Sand and gravel, etc.
13:14<Eddi|zuHause>did we ever introduce the "powderized" cargo class?
13:15<andythenorth>somewhat yes
13:29<andythenorth>https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Cargos#CargoClasses_.2816.29
13:30<andythenorth>randomised vehicle lengths when building? o_O
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27921 trunk/src/lang/polish.txt (2017-09-27 19:45:38 +0200 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from Eints:
13:45<@DorpsGek>polish: 22 changes by McZapkie
13:50<andythenorth>more unrealism?
13:51<andythenorth>less UK-style?
13:51*andythenorth thinking
13:52<andythenorth>hmm
14:15<andythenorth>what is goal here?
14:15<andythenorth>two goals seem to conflict
14:15<andythenorth>1) distinctive wagons per cargo type
14:16<andythenorth>2) not too many wagons
14:28<andythenorth>wagon recolouring? o_O
14:30<supermop_>Eddi|zuHause: have often been a little bothered by the density issue
14:31<supermop_>mostly for hoppers i guess, but i guess it would be an issue for boxcars too
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14:57<andythenorth>bah
14:57<andythenorth>on the one hand, easy buy menu
14:57<andythenorth>on the other, ore trains and coal trains delivering to steel mill look different
14:57<andythenorth>stone train and sand train from quarry look different
14:58<andythenorth>which is more desirable?
14:59<supermop_>rake of lots of short ore cars is kind of visually satisfying
14:59<supermop_>but idk
14:59<andythenorth>cars are mostly going to be 4/8 or 8/8, for integer reasons :P
15:00<andythenorth>I already have tank cars that recolour per cargo
15:00<andythenorth>so that would be a valid option for other types
15:00<andythenorth>dunno
15:01<andythenorth>if I add more types, I’ll have to retcon Hog to match :P
15:01<andythenorth>I think simplicity wins out
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15:12<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: how does the density play out in-game then? o_O
15:12*andythenorth seeking ideas
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15:24<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: so, in the "simple" case, every wagon has a weight cap and a volume cap, and total capacity is the first one that is met
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>so you could fill a coal wagon with ore, but it would only be "half full" (by volume) because weight cap is met first
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>then it would make sense to use the (shorter?) ore wagon instead, because you get more weight per train length
15:26<andythenorth>it’s rational
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16:43<andythenorth>quak
16:43<andythenorth>late for frogs
16:45<frosch123>hoi
16:46<V453000>oy
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17:03<andythenorth>4/8
17:03<andythenorth>winning length
17:03<frosch123>ah, i was really worried last week when you said the length thing was settled :)
17:04<andythenorth>I thought so
17:04<andythenorth>I have managed to combine it with 2 other conflicting goals
17:04<andythenorth>so all is well
17:13<andythenorth>really the problem is, how many kinds of hopper cars
17:14<andythenorth>frosch123 critique? http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8642/horse_such.png
17:14<andythenorth>various length madness, various type madness
17:15<frosch123>the first flatbed one, is that one or two short wagons?
17:16<frosch123>it's weird in the depot gui, the stakes have the same colour as the window :)
17:16<andythenorth>first wagon is one 8/8
17:16<andythenorth>yeah, it needs redrawn
17:17<andythenorth>I added ‘coal cars’ (all the grey ones)
17:17<frosch123>the floor seems to be one pixel lower than for the other ones
17:17<andythenorth>old sprite, yes
17:17<frosch123>too shiny for coal, looks like grain
17:18<andythenorth>fair
17:18<frosch123>needs more rust
17:18<andythenorth>I’m 90% going to just delete them
17:18<andythenorth>not convinced ‘coal car’ makes sense
17:19<frosch123>well, they are not CC, which is a good thing :)
17:19<andythenorth>then a generic car for 25 other bulk cargos :P
17:19<andythenorth>yes
17:19<andythenorth>but I could recolour wagons on refit
17:19<andythenorth>tank cars do that
17:20<andythenorth>too much magic?
17:20<frosch123>i like the red thing at the front of the steam engine
17:20<frosch123>no idea what it is, but it makes it look unique
17:21<andythenorth>buffer thing
17:21<andythenorth>dunno whether to pursue more cargo-specific cars
17:21<andythenorth>already got ‘fruit’ and ‘wood'
17:21<frosch123>do you have non-level flat beds?
17:21<andythenorth>got supply cars
17:22<andythenorth>with a well
17:22<frosch123>https://img.webme.com/pic/m/modelle-und-mehr/DSCF3254.JPG
17:22<andythenorth>https://c1.staticflickr.com/8/7188/6865549817_886cebd561_b.jpg
17:23<frosch123>http://www.eurospoor.nl/media/2423/5218.jpg <- also works with stakes
17:23<andythenorth>does
17:24<andythenorth>so could do ‘coal car’, ‘sand car’, ‘iron ore car’ etc
17:24<andythenorth>but seems like FIRS çargos will always outstrip that :P
17:24<frosch123>do sand cars polish themself?
17:24<andythenorth>as they travel, yes
17:24<andythenorth>very shiny
17:31<andythenorth>also bed
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23:59-!-Mek is "Marijn Kruisselbrink" on #openttd
---Logclosed Thu Sep 28 00:00:16 2017