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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-10-09

---Logopened Mon Oct 09 00:00:31 2017
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11:59<stefino>hey guys...I need help with bridges. I'm making (redrawing) bridges and found this bug. I 4xzoom it is ok but if I zoom out , gap appear. And it looks realy bad :/ Any idea where the mistake is? Thanks :)
12:01<stefino>PS it is automaticly rescaled by OTTD engine. There are no graphics for x2 and normal zoom
12:12<FLHerne>stefino: I think that's because of the way OTTD rescales sprites - it assumes the large ones are exactly 2x or 4x the size of normal zoom, including that edges have 2px/4px steps instead of a smooth diagonal line
12:12<FLHerne>stefino: See , are relevant
12:13<FLHerne>When OTTD scales down your sprites, it doesn't find the 'teeth' of the steps, so you get missing pixels along the edge
12:14<stefino>Umm, can't remember how to send answer so write in general. So it is graphics bug due game automatic rescale and the solution is to add sprites in x2 and normal scale
12:16<FLHerne>(this image by Foobar is probably clearest , from this thread
12:17<FLHerne>Green + blue is the result of scaling a normal-zoom tile up by 4x
12:18<FLHerne>Blue + red is the shape that 4x ground tiles are actually drawn at in most sets
12:19<FLHerne>You can see that when OTTD scales the blue+red area down to normal zoom, there are missing pixels along the top edges
12:20<FLHerne>Someone might have a better idea, but I think you're right that providing externally-scaled versions is best
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12:24<FLHerne>FWIW, it's not really a 'bug' as such, the sprite just isn't the right shape for plain rescaling to work
12:29<stefino>yes but if I have for example ground sprites, there are no graphics "bugs"
12:29<stefino>and have only 4x zoom too
12:29<stefino>or roads
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13:37<supermop>yo andythenorth
13:38<supermop>what the thinking between steam dummies, and little tank engines
13:38<supermop>for industrial trams/ dockyard trains / mines
13:39<supermop>should a tram set have dummies or heqs style locomotives
13:41<andythenorth>steam dummies
13:41<andythenorth>industrial trains for mines and farms are different
13:42<supermop>should it have both?
13:43<supermop>dummy looks too much like a short tram
13:43<andythenorth>dummy is a tram :)
13:43<andythenorth>V453000: yo, haz problem
13:43<supermop>i guess the diesels should look like little sugar cane locomotives
13:44<andythenorth>I assumed adding ribs would improve trains 20 and 21
13:44<andythenorth>but it doesn’t
13:44<andythenorth>the progression is just like ‘oh more hoppers blah'
13:44<andythenorth>also all IH wagons are basically high contrast vertical ribs
13:44<supermop>electrics boxcabs or steeples?
13:45<andythenorth>steeple actually looks crap
13:45<andythenorth>the angles don’t work
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13:45<andythenorth>I did center cab with rectangular small bonnets
13:45<andythenorth>unrealism but eh
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27925 trunk/src/lang/malay.txt (2017-10-09 19:45:39 +0200 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from Eints:
13:45<@DorpsGek>malay: 5 changes by rionix88
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13:50<supermop>30ish tiny boxcab:
13:51<supermop>no pole or panto yet
13:56<FLHerne>andythenorth: I don't see why you want large ribbed hoppers
13:56<andythenorth>because contrast
13:56<andythenorth>I made the covered hoppers by adding lids on hoppers
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13:56<andythenorth>rather like IRL :P
13:57<andythenorth>but the flat covered hoppers look wrong
13:57<andythenorth>so I added ribs
13:57<FLHerne>Big UK hoppers aren't really ribbed
13:57<andythenorth>then I tried retconning the ribs onto the hoppers
13:57<andythenorth>retcon is word of the year
13:57<FLHerne>Covered hoppers (the biomass ones?) also aren't ribbed
13:57<FLHerne>You posted a nice photo of one...
13:58<FLHerne>Aren't there covered HEA conversions too?
13:58<andythenorth>the polybulks aren’t ribbed
13:58<andythenorth>but the sprites look better with ribs :)
13:59<@Alberth>taking care of non-1 freight multiplier :)
13:59<FLHerne>I disagree, they just look weird and stripy
14:01<andythenorth>these ones?
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14:08<FLHerne>Yes, very
14:09<FLHerne>TBH, that's my opinion on most of the Iron Horse graphics you've posted
14:10<FLHerne>They're all full of high-contrast details that break up the overall lines, and my personal preference is against that
14:13<FLHerne>Greebles like that look nice on your FIRS buildings, but they look strange to me when portraying things that have huge expanses of sheet steel on the real thing
14:14<FLHerne>(I think maybe because the minimum 1px detail size is still huge in OTTD scale, so there's not much space left /between/ the details)
14:15<andythenorth>is interesting opposite of the V453000 method
14:15<FLHerne>Not that you have any particular reason to care about my opinions, but I have a lot of them and they keep overflowing :P
14:16<andythenorth>my problem with high contrast is that it’s just 1 technique
14:16<andythenorth>FIRS has multiple techniques
14:16<andythenorth>if all wagons are high-contrast vertical lines, all wagons look same :P
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14:21<andythenorth>wagons lack other techniques
14:22<andythenorth>I don’t like random noise
14:22<andythenorth>there are no windows
14:22<andythenorth>lettering and logos look stupid
14:23<FLHerne>UKRS2 ones have a couple of different paint schemes for some wagon types, which helps
14:23<supermop>4x sprites so you can see the lettering?
14:23<andythenorth>I considered paint schemes
14:23<FLHerne>Also, more variation in silhouette
14:23<andythenorth>but with all the cargo support, compile times are already unworkable
14:24<FLHerne>Your early hoppers are all pretty much boxes
14:24<FLHerne>Or they look that way when stuck into a train
14:25<andythenorth>not funnel-y enough?
14:25<FLHerne>UKRS2 almost alternates between ones with sloping ends and big visual gaps, and boxoid ones
14:26<andythenorth>only the big blue hopper really looks like a hopper there
14:26<andythenorth>partly because the inner grey slope is also drawn
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14:28<FLHerne>The covered grain hoppers look ok
14:28<FLHerne>MGR ones are a bit weird though
14:30<FLHerne>Didn't you draw the UKRS2+ speedlink ones?
14:30<FLHerne>Not hoppers, but they do look interestingly different to anything else
14:31<andythenorth>I drew the + ones yes
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14:31<andythenorth>the horse ones are all modified UKRS 2 (pikka or mine)
14:33<FLHerne>I still can't really put my finger on how, but all the UKRS2(+) vehicles seem much more distinct than the IH ones
14:33<FLHerne>I guess the non-standard lengths help :P
14:33<FLHerne>But they've got different heights, and different sizes and shapes of gaps between them, and very different texturing
14:34<FLHerne>Whereas the IH ones for each family all look rather like stretched versions of the same sprite
14:35<FLHerne>Anyway, I need to go and ring church bells now, so I'll stop insulting your work...
14:35<andythenorth>there’s a fundamental numbers problem
14:35<andythenorth>IH has up to 12 sprites where UKRS 2 has one ;)
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14:50<supermop>i wonder what a modern version of that looks like? just a yellow box likely?
14:51<supermop>diesels should look like a tiny version of this i guess
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14:57<supermop>this one maybe too small:
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15:04<supermop>idk i am overthinking everything
15:04<andythenorth>fill up inspiration
15:04<andythenorth>then fake it
15:04<supermop>feel like i need at least two each for steam, diesel, and electric
15:04<andythenorth>the search google images for retcon
15:04<andythenorth>then *
15:04<supermop>hard to make something 3LU different looking
15:04<andythenorth>for gameplay you really don’t need many
15:05<andythenorth>I struggled with Hog to make 3 steam look different
15:05<supermop>i considered a tank for difference
15:05<supermop>diesel is going to be around for ever.
15:05<supermop>40s ish through infinity
15:05<andythenorth>when you actually draw it, it’s very few pixels
15:06<andythenorth>you don’t get much room :)
15:06<supermop>electric can be boss from jump so don't need much progression. progress can be just adding wagons
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15:12<supermop>looks like a diesel
15:12<supermop>had assumed it would have been smaller
15:15<supermop>was hoping 10th av freight would have used tiny locomotives
15:16<supermop>but it was a full size SG railway
15:17<supermop>rather it was part of the regular railway and regular trains drove onto it
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15:34<supermop>can chop that up
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15:43<V453000>well well well
15:43<andythenorth>covered hoppers getting ridiculous
15:43<andythenorth>so many variants :P
15:44<andythenorth>trying to find correct
15:44<V453000>there goes 200 pounds off to amazon and no sprite progress today
15:44<andythenorth>V453000: what purchase?
15:44<V453000>mr wannabe artist is reading art books when in subway
15:45<andythenorth>I read an art book once
15:46<V453000>I just find it vastly more interesting than staring into the rest of the cattle on the train for 40 minutes twice a day
15:46<V453000>and I'm not too attracted to reading books with stories and shit
15:47<V453000>sure, sometimes, but eh
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15:48<V453000>other than that I basically have finished painting the tunnels and from looking at PSD they look awesome so far, will attempt to put them in the game to see how horribly wrong I am :D
15:48<V453000> /me is kind of sarcastictarded today
15:49*andythenorth too much pixels
15:49<andythenorth>I have drawn 400 covered hoppers
15:50<V453000>jesus fuck :D that's amazing progress
15:50<V453000>50 types?
15:50<V453000>that's what
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15:51<V453000>well I guess if you have 25 cargoes with 2 randoms each it's kind of easy eh
15:51<andythenorth>most of them are wrong
15:51<andythenorth>surprisingly fricking hard to draw
15:55<V453000>hm :) nothing is easy
15:56<andythenorth>open cars are :P
15:56<V453000>one would expect things to be becoming easier as you learn more
15:56<andythenorth>standards go up
15:56<V453000>but yeah
15:56<V453000>yez, and dumb ass brain loopholes which want to make things complicated as flying fucks
15:57<andythenorth>well I have fixed 1 generation
15:57<andythenorth>now just have to fix the other 5 :x
15:58<V453000>yeah exactly this shit is why nuts is dead :D
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16:15<andythenorth>hmm 2 hours of drawing 2 sprites
16:15<andythenorth>and it might not be better :P
16:16<V453000>couldn't be more surprised
16:16<V453000>of course it's total nightmare
16:17<V453000>fucking ground sprites and their zoom levels
16:17<andythenorth>all of it
16:18<V453000>well maybe just x1 will be fucked-ish and at that scale it might not be noticeable
16:18<andythenorth>you know what else is a nightmare?
16:18<andythenorth>using grey in vehicles
16:18<V453000>is it
16:18<andythenorth>fricking depot bg is grey
16:19<andythenorth>draw nice sprite
16:19<andythenorth>half of it disappears
16:21<V453000>make it glow
16:21<V453000>if sprite == depot, set vehicle on fire = true
16:21<andythenorth>also 26000 sprites
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16:23<V453000>this thing is getting seriously dirty
16:23<V453000>Render has been pushed though
16:23<V453000>XD yeah
16:24<V453000>26000 isn't a small thing either
16:26<supermop>maybe ill put one of those bars on the shunter wheels
16:26<andythenorth>note to self
16:26<andythenorth>don’t draw grey wagons
16:27<V453000>note to self don't ever revisit brix source
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16:29<V453000>ok now I can just pray
16:29<V453000>either it's going to work
16:29<V453000>or unicorns will die
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16:38<supermop>why do clients refuse to hire a graphic designer
16:39<andythenorth>do they need graphic design? o_O
16:39<supermop>then ask their interior designer to design all of their branding
16:39<andythenorth>same reason they ask their website designer to design all their branding
16:39<supermop>and produce production quality sinage graphics
16:39<andythenorth>one of the many reasons I quit web design
16:39<supermop>and won't pay to photograph their own dishes
16:40<supermop>suggest to use something online, then don't want to pay for stock images
16:40<andythenorth>or nothing
16:40<andythenorth>agency work sucks
16:40<andythenorth>make products :P
16:41<supermop>and ask you to produce the graphics for the window vinyls same day
16:41<supermop>my boss needs to be less thirsty about this stufff
16:41<andythenorth>you have a computer right?
16:41<supermop>we are not a branding consultancy
16:41<andythenorth>and it’s all just IT
16:41<andythenorth>so it’s fine
16:41*andythenorth can only offer cynicsm here, sorry :)
16:42<supermop>boss is the type who won't think twice until it's two late when presented with any opprotunity to grab scope
16:42<supermop>even when that scope has nothing to do with our work
16:42<supermop>and doesn't know how to price for it
16:43<supermop>also this is all being done with no access to our server, which is down today, because it sits in a pile in an un-ventilated closet
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16:49<andythenorth>supermop: so is the design not charged for?
16:49<supermop>apparenty no
16:50<supermop>got approval to invoice for reimbursement for licensing of image though
16:50<andythenorth>if it was billed, you could at least involve freelance
16:51<andythenorth>in principle tying together the interior and the graphics is more holistic, better result
16:51<supermop>boss too hungry for that
16:51<andythenorth>I’ve been that boss
16:51<supermop>i would rather recapture the whole thing
16:51<andythenorth>it’s a hard way to make money over the medium term
16:52<supermop>it would be fine if we were a little more generously staffed
16:52<andythenorth>occasionally a lot of money can be made that way, but it’s rare
16:52<andythenorth>more usually it’s slow death
16:52<supermop>also the most sucessful restaurant interiors firms are much more whole brand integrated
16:52<supermop>but as we do not actually have that expertise to bring to table it is really just a pain
16:54<supermop>going to have to see if my computer can hack it when it comes to making a 96"x96" photoshop file at 300 dpi
16:55<andythenorth>15 years since I did anything like that
16:55<andythenorth>but large format banners used to be very challenging
16:56<andythenorth>I had a friend who did huge building wraps
16:56<andythenorth>on G3 macs
16:56<supermop>i think i am going to try 150 dpi
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17:10<andythenorth>is bed
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18:55<supermop>so this psd is 2 gb
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---Logclosed Tue Oct 10 00:00:33 2017