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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-10-13

---Logopened Fri Oct 13 00:00:37 2017
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02:33<V453000>morning good sir
02:33<V453000>with sound
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03:06<andythenorth>V453000: more tank car bollocks
03:06<andythenorth>less shit
03:07<V453000>very nice but I think it could use some sort of shading at the ends
03:07<V453000>it looks flat horizontally
03:07<V453000>at the end I would expect some darkening or brightening or something
03:08<andythenorth>I will try pissing around with some highlights
03:17<andythenorth>I have to draw another two generations also :P
03:17<andythenorth>tank wagons don’t have doors even
03:19<Arveen2>clicking that video with a headset on and sound set to 90% is not a good idea
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05:07<Wolf01>Fook humidity, fish swimming in the air :|
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10:07<supermop>locomotives coded but not yet drawn
10:07<supermop>except for one
10:08<supermop>i added switches to chose between all the liveries i want to draw
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10:13<@Alberth>ha, invisble engines :)
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10:46<supermop>also need to figure this out:
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11:04<Wolf01>I don't know why, but the coal one looks bigger
11:15<supermop>Wolf01: ???
11:16<Wolf01>Screenshot you linked
11:16<Wolf01>The truck with iron ore seem it carries less stuff than the coal one on top right
11:17<supermop>oh thats a ways above
11:18<supermop>i think it is because the inside of the hopper is dark grey
11:18<supermop>so the last 1-px of empty hopper space looks like more coal
11:19<supermop>i guess i could lighten the inside of the hopper, but then gravel might have the same problem
11:20<Wolf01>Make iron ore fill the whole hopper instead of leaving 1px of border
11:21<supermop>too heavy
11:21<supermop>ooh its not a bug its a feature
11:21<supermop>i ore is heavier so same number of tons fills less of hopper
11:21<supermop>problem solved?
11:22<supermop>hmm do i want liveries to be random, or based on build date? or last service date?
11:23<@Alberth>likely you do
11:23<supermop>do old trams get new livery ever?
11:24<supermop>irl they gradually do as they come in for service
11:24<supermop>but some keep old livery for years
11:25<supermop>based on build date gives interesting effect where each towns trams might differ based on when then received new trams, even if the model of tram is the same
11:26<supermop>i guess i could also allow refit to whatever livery you want
11:26<supermop>but that is boring
11:27<@Alberth>some people freak out if they can't control the livery to whatever is supposed to be used in a city
11:28<supermop>the trams and liveries are not real though
11:29<supermop>only real-world 'inspired'
11:29<supermop>one of them looks like a sweatshirt i had in the 90s
11:30<supermop>maybe ill use variable 'company_type' so that only AI can get cool liveries
11:33<Wolf01> NSFW
11:35<@Alberth>we are a bit pretentious in thinking we are not an artificial life form :p
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11:41<supermop>looking at this i can't see how i would have a date specific result like i want
11:41<supermop>it seems like i could make it so that each time a tram goes to depot, it gets some random new livery
11:42<supermop>but not have say, "40% chance to receive current_year livery, 60% chance to keep whatever livery already had"
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11:45<Wolf01>4: cur_year_livery;
11:45<Wolf01>6: random_livery;
11:45<Wolf01>This won't work?
11:45<supermop>as i want to make sure that a tram never reverts to an older style
11:45<supermop>like if tram comes into the depot with 90s livery and then leaves with 80s livery
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11:46<Wolf01>Use the "dependent"?
11:46<Wolf01>And 2 randoms
11:50<supermop>i don't think i understand
11:50<supermop>how does the tram remember it's current livery?
11:51<Wolf01>You have one random to select a livery based by year, and another random to select the livery based on the previous random or a new one, at least this is what I understood about it
11:57<supermop>is there a way for the random trigger to only randomly trigger
11:58<supermop>like it only actually triggers 40% of the time?
12:00<Eddi|zuHause>you'd need storage for that
12:01<supermop>where trigger_??? is just some random that doesn't seem to exist
12:02<supermop>but would be nice if it did
12:02<Wolf01>That looks like an event
12:02<supermop>even if it was just 50/50 0 or 1
12:02<supermop>the even is going to depot
12:02<supermop>tram doesn't get repainted out on the street
12:03<Eddi|zuHause>i think there's an undocumented trigger callback (1? 2? something like that), you could do fancy magic there
12:03<supermop>undocumented hmm
12:03<supermop>do i have to use nfo?
12:03<Eddi|zuHause>but you can't base your decision on random bits there
12:04<Wolf01>I would like an online tool for doing OTTD stuff... it would be cool to debug without compiling and firing up the game, loading grfs, prepare the things you need to see
12:04<Eddi|zuHause>(because if you decide to not trigger, you have no chance to undo that decision)
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12:05<Wolf01>You can trigger to "do nothing" maybe
12:05<supermop>Wolf01: thats what i want
12:05<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: seems like nml has "random_trigger" callback
12:06<supermop>but i don't think i can return 'do nothing' as a livery
12:06<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: note that if you use that, all triggers you put in your other random decisions are ignored
12:06<supermop>i don't get it
12:06<supermop>this is over my head
12:08<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: normally, when a trigger happens, the game traverses the "default" decision chain, and on every random switch it finds there, it triggers the appropriate bits mentioned there
12:08<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: if you define "random_trigger" callback, it ignores the default chain and does this chain instead
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>so you have to duplicate the random switches for that callback
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>and possibly all relevant other decisions
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12:53<supermop>ok that might me a pain
12:53<supermop>but workable
12:53<supermop>the only other random thing these trams do other than livery is which end the pantograph is on
12:55<supermop>do RVs have any kind of storage?
12:58<supermop>what is the 32 day callback?
12:59<supermop>does it just return 1 one day out of 32? is it every 32 days counting from day 0 or from day vehicle was 'born'
13:00<supermop>~3% chance of new livery might be ok, but feels low for trams that do not regularly service
13:01<supermop>on short lines where i have depot as terminus, tram might service 6-10 times a year, but on a loop line it may only service for auto renew
13:02<supermop>i assume other players have trams visit the depot at most 1-2 times a year
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13:09<supermop>oh. the 70s tram gets extra doors if build after 1980
13:09<supermop>but thats not random
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13:26<supermop>hi frosch123
13:33<supermop>ugh idk what im going to do
13:35<supermop>the random_switch page of docs doesn't make itclear to me where random_trigger callback goes
13:37<frosch123>random triggers are probably the second hardest thing after stations :)
13:38<frosch123>anyway, you put the triggers directly into the random_switch
13:38<Eddi|zuHause>all callbacks go in the graphics block
13:38<frosch123>and the random_switch must be in the graphics chain
13:38<frosch123>if you want to randomise a callback result, you still need a random_switch in the graphics chain for linking the rerandomisation trigger
13:39<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: like random_trigger: random_switch ?
13:40<supermop>frosch123: i am trying to come up with a way where by old trams have some chance of getting new livery paint in depot
13:40<frosch123>rule 1: DO NOT USE "random_trigger"
13:40<supermop>but where they never get an old livery as new paint
13:41<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: you forgot rule 0: "do not listen to eddi" :p
13:41<supermop>so they randomly decide to either 1: keep current livery, or 2: receive the 'new' livery for the current year
13:42<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: i sort of tried that in CETS by treating the random bits as a delay between new livery appearing and repainting
13:42<frosch123>i don't think that is possible
13:42<Eddi|zuHause>which has a whole load of problems
13:42<supermop>i cant figure out a way to have a switch have a 'do nothing option'
13:43<Eddi|zuHause>like accessing the random bits in a normal formula
13:43<supermop>the only way would seem to be randomly decide whether to traverse the switch at all
13:43<frosch123>hmm, oh, i have an idea, it works with gray code
13:43<supermop>...gray code?
13:43<supermop>what am i getting myself into here
13:43<frosch123>gray code is a method to count while only ever changing a single bit for incrementing/decrementing
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>and rerandomizing between different generations is also tricky
13:44<frosch123>that allows you to "count" by rerandomising a single bit
13:44<frosch123>supermop: so, how many generations?
13:44<supermop>most trams have 4 liveries
13:45<supermop>but only 3 regularly used
13:45<supermop>'livery A' is special, only appears if built during exclusive preview
13:45<frosch123>aww, then there is a easier solution without gray code :/
13:45<supermop>however, one tram has 8 liveries
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27927 trunk/src/lang/french.txt (2017-10-13 19:45:40 +0200 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from Eints:
13:45<@DorpsGek>french: 6 changes by glx
13:45<frosch123>why do the best solutions never have a usecase?
13:45<supermop>because i went crazy drawing them
13:46<supermop>frosch123: i am happy to draw more and more and more liveries
13:47<Eddi|zuHause>like i said, would be way easier if there were storage
13:47<frosch123>ok, next question: what should be the probabiliy for upgrading the livery in every depot visit?
13:47<supermop>hmm something between 10 and 40 %
13:47<supermop>i'd need to test it to see
13:48<frosch123>ok, i'll make an example for 25%
13:48<supermop>i have some lines where trams are in the depot almost every 30 days, but i assum most trams go to depot 1-2 times per year
13:48<Eddi|zuHause>50% needs one bit, 25% needs two bits, 12.5% or 37.5% need 3 bits
13:49<supermop>i guess i should say 31.25% to be difficult then
13:54<Eddi|zuHause>i could imagine a few ways to abuse triggers to get this behaviour, but it might still be easier to allow STORE/LOAD acces to the random bits directly
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14:09<supermop>hi andythenorth
14:17<supermop>man adding sprites for drive-on-left is going to be a pain
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14:30<frosch123>supermop: <- possibly something like that
14:31<andythenorth>supermop: “don’t”? :)
14:32<supermop>frosch123: ooooh
14:32<frosch123>hmm, i think it is incomplete
14:33<frosch123>i need to downgrade vehicle which are built as gen1 with inital random bits saying "upgraded"
14:41<frosch123>supermop: <- next try
14:42*frosch123 probably scared him away :p
14:44<supermop>what is #define YEAR_ etc is that something you can do in nml?
14:49<Eddi|zuHause>those are preprocessor commands
14:50<Eddi|zuHause>if you run your file through the c-preprocessor (cpp)
15:00<supermop>i wonder if i can write this thing out just once per generation of trams rather than per model of tram
15:01<supermop>like so all the results are 'Gen 3 livery B' etc
15:01<supermop>hmm no
15:03<supermop>there isn't a way i can think of for the switch in the tram graphics area to get 'gen 3 livery A' from the other switches and do anything meaningful with it
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15:03<andythenorth>you could
15:03<supermop>ie so that 'gen 3 livery A' is one spritegroup for a 1 car tram, and a different one for the parts of a 3 car tram
15:03<andythenorth>but it’s not the right problem to solve
15:06<supermop>right solution to the right problem would have been 'don't have various liveries'
15:06<supermop>but too late i already drew them
15:09<andythenorth>is your problem manually writing the switches?
15:10<supermop>that isn't a problem so much as a feeling of efficiency or propriety
15:12<supermop>if all the trams of a certain body style have the same 4 styles of livery, it 'feels' right that they all use the same mechanism to decide which livery they receive
15:13<supermop>ofc i can put frosch123's chain of switches once per tram, and that may be better even, allowing finer control of the years for each style
15:13<supermop>but something about it feels clunky
15:14<Wolf01> flat wagon
15:14<supermop>Wolf01: beautiful
15:24<andythenorth>doesn’t fit Horse
15:24<andythenorth>ha ha it actually is 5/8
15:24*andythenorth just guessed without counting studs
15:25<andythenorth>hmm 6/8 including buffers :P
15:25<supermop>andythenorth: yeah
15:25<supermop>the deck is 22 studs not 20
15:29<andythenorth>supermop: so the switch thing…you’re opening a box labelled ‘templating’ :P
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16:29<supermop>frosch123: sorry i am meaning to try your code, but i have to fill in lots of code for the liveries themselves and the trams to use them first
16:30<frosch123>the more graphics the more complex :)
16:30<frosch123>there is a reason why andy does python magic
16:37<supermop>i need to do some recoloring on my open wagons too
16:37<supermop>which idk how to do, but need to get these trams working first
16:46<Wolf01>Need more high level language or a dedicated ide
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16:49<V453000>I will also try to do some pythony pythoning with my next project
16:49<V453000>many graphics = mayhem
16:51<Wolf01>Shit, I already ate half of a maxi-pack of loackers
16:51<Wolf01>I should try with some cement
16:56<supermop>i dont really get this page:
16:56<V453000>which part don't you get
16:56<supermop>it seems like i list the color i want to recolor, then the color it should become, but where the hell do i apply it to a sprite
16:57<V453000>you give it values and it recolours from A to B autmoatically
16:57<supermop>like i have recolor_sprite_mop
16:57<supermop>and i have spriteset_mop_01
16:58<supermop>where do i say 'use recolor_sprite_mop on spriteset_mop_01'
17:01<V453000>colour_mapping: RAINBOWSLUG_colour_mapping_random;
17:01<V453000>in graphics{}
17:02<V453000>and there you have a random or whatever switch leading to the recolour table
17:02<V453000>rainbow slugs do it if you check out nuts.nml
17:03<V453000>note that frosch wrote that part, so it's utter batshit insane
17:03<supermop>makes sense
17:03<V453000>but I think the basic part is this simple
17:04<frosch123>supermop: just use the normal cc recolour sprites
17:04<frosch123>is there a need to define custom ones?
17:04<supermop>for one case i want to make an open wagon either grey, 1cc, or 2cc
17:05<frosch123>anyway, selecting the recolouring works different when using sprite stacks
17:06<frosch123>so before you start with recolouring you should decide whether to possibly use stacks somewhen, or whether to never use them
17:06<frosch123>(you can use a stack of 1 for starting)
17:07<V453000>what's the major difference?
17:07<frosch123>[23:04] <supermop> for one case i want to make an open wagon either grey, 1cc, or 2cc <- does "grey" look the same as when grey is selected as cc? or is it some other grey?
17:07<V453000>I'll want to use both
17:07<frosch123>V453000: when not using stacks you select sprites and recolouring in two independent switch chains
17:08<frosch123>with stacks you select both as pairs in the same switch chain
17:08<frosch123>though if the whole stack shall use the same recolouring you can still use the old method
17:09<V453000>nice, another dimension wtf :D this going to be crazy
17:10<V453000>no I will use it for each layer
17:10<V453000>probably just for 2 at most
17:24<Wolf01> andy... nothere, supermop you might like this
17:26<supermop>frosch123: i could make it so the whole stack recolors the same, but was thinking each layer would color separately
17:27<frosch123> <- that's still the example grf for that
17:28<frosch123>thought it can probably be written more intuititve
17:29<frosch123>-t -t
17:30<supermop>i already use stacks for almost all of my vehicles
17:31<supermop>i wonder what is better switch chain: [position in consist]-[stack]-[livery style]
17:32<supermop>or [style]-[stack]-[position]
17:32<frosch123>if you store some intermediate results using STORE_TEMP, it does not matter
17:32<supermop>[style]-[position]-[stack] sounds intuitive
17:33<frosch123>in that case there is no need to duplicate all the cases
17:36<supermop>does i need to set a unique location to store for each tram?
17:37<frosch123>you can use link them globally
17:37<frosch123>register 0 for style, register 1 for position, ...
17:38<supermop>ok so i can have like:
17:38<supermop>switch_style, <magic>;
17:39<supermop>then STORE_TEMP(switch_style, 0)
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17:40<frosch123>well, the point is, if you have a complicated formular for "position", you do not need to duplicate it for each "style"
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17:40<frosch123>and you do not need to duplicate "stack" for each combination of "style" and "position"
17:45<supermop>so this is my simplest tram:
17:45<supermop>only one car, only two things to stack, only two random livery variations
17:46<supermop>now i am adding trams with 5 cars, different things to stack on each, switch to vary which end gets pantograph, and special livery magic
17:46<supermop>so i imagine it will make a big branching tree of switches
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18:00<frosch123>supermop: <- same thing with recolouring and all combinations in a single switch
18:02<frosch123> <- i missed some parentheses
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18:37<supermop_home>ok back home
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---Logclosed Sat Oct 14 00:00:38 2017