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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-10-16

---Logopened Mon Oct 16 00:00:41 2017
00:19<supermop_>accidentally made a mail tram that hauls two passenger carriages
00:19<supermop_>might be worth keeping
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01:01<__ln__>https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DMHiy0hUIAElI2D.jpg:medium
01:56<Eddi|zuHause>supermop_: the problem with that is that mail trams cannot load at passenger stops
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03:50<Pixel>Hey, I'm created new thread in OpenTTD section, hope you visit it! https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=77141
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04:06<peter1139>I've
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04:39<Wolf01>Moin
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05:06<Wolf01>Yay, got the job
05:08<Arveen2>congrats
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05:11<peter1139>Nice.
05:11<peter1139>Can you supersize me?
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05:19<Pixel>Is anyone here&
05:20<Pixel>*?
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05:25<Wolf01>The only weird thing is that they use a VS based ide to make apps which creates the app starting from a database and the interface is html+js, while the code is c# (something like phonegap)
05:26<Wolf01>I tried the evaluation version and: 1) no dark theme for the ide, 2) the apps are wonky
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05:57<Wolf01>https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/10/severe-flaw-in-wpa2-protocol-leaves-wi-fi-traffic-open-to-eavesdropping/ eh
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06:30<__ln__>yeah, better to use unencrypted wifi to avoid the vulnerability
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07:17<OpenTTD_Newbie>Hello, I'am looking for some help for map generation. Playing on large map i can't get a nice balance of industries to spawn. Minimal is a bit too little for my taste and very low is way too much. Is there a way to set the amount of industry that spawns? I there a console command to spawn more industry randomly
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07:19<Wolf01>OpenTTD_newbie_: scenario editor
07:21<peter1139>That's a bit too manual...
07:21<Flygon>I wonder if my mistake in OpenTTD is running freight run cycles that tend to run for 4-8 years.
07:21<OpenTTD_newbie_>Can i just spawn an industry in a random location in scenario editor
07:21<peter1139>OpenTTD_newbie_, are you happy with the number of towns?
07:22<Flygon>And then I wonder why I have short-term profitability issues. :V
07:22<OpenTTD_newbie_>Well town is a bit too much also mabye
07:22<peter1139>OpenTTD_newbie_, I ask because adjusting the number of towns also affects the number of industries.
07:22<OpenTTD_newbie_>So fewer town means less industries
07:23<Flygon>(Also I'd love a setting between 'Minimal' and 'Too Low')
07:23<Wolf01>Also disable "more than one industry of the same type per town"
07:23<crem>Maybe it would make sense to reduce number of industries for "low". I had exactaly the same problem, "low" number of industries still felt too much.
07:23<crem>So I ended up playing with "minimal" which is a bit too few.
07:24<OpenTTD_newbie_>Yeah, with FIRS minimal only spawns one of each industry, and on large map it can really screw you over
07:24<crem>It would probably be easy to tweak constants and recompile though.
07:25<Wolf01>Eh, I play in maps where I have only one industry per type in the entire map, I don't think you should go lower than this and I feel it's the right number
07:25<crem>1 is too few for huge maps.
07:26<crem>And if you set "low" rather than "minimal", it's too many.
07:26<OpenTTD_newbie_>4kx4k map having only one of each industry is quite hard. Would love if i could set the amount of primary ve secondary/teriary
07:26<Flygon>(Noting in my 2k*2k Iceland game that having it set to 'Very Low' still has industries absolutely EVERYWHERE)
07:26<Wolf01>Spawn fewer towns tith "lower" industries
07:26<Wolf01>*with
07:27<crem>I also doubt anyone ever sets it to nigher than "normal". So that setting feels like it has to be recalibrated.
07:27<OpenTTD_newbie_>i think already have town set to minimal, but it still spans quite a lot of them
07:27<Wolf01>I play 1024x64, very low number of towns and minimal number of industries
07:27<peter1139>Basically 4kx4k is too big, and is just a joke.
07:28<crem>Is number of industries proportional to area of the map?
07:29<crem>I think it should grow slower than linear.
07:30<Wolf01>For example, a 64x64 map with a grf (firs, ecs) is really hard to play, and to generate successfully
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09:26<supermop>Wolf01: 64 with even some water is hard
09:31<supermop>so i don't think the livery upgrade trigger thing works
09:32<supermop>running a couple trams in and out of depot on fast forward last night for about 25 game years/covering 3-4 liveries, and didn't see any change
09:32<supermop>but it is possible i did not use the callback correctly
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10:12<supermop>also some things are really misaligned
10:12<supermop>hmm can you change the template of a sprite without just redefining it as a different sprite?
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10:43<@Alberth>o/
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11:05<crem>\o
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12:32<@Alberth>o/
12:32<Wolf01>o/
12:32<andythenorth>o/
12:32<andythenorth>@seen frosch123
12:32<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: frosch123 was last seen in #openttd 22 hours, 16 minutes, and 19 seconds ago: <frosch123> you convert them to pixels to save space?
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12:36<Wolf01>https://www.cheatography.com/thomasboni/cheat-sheets/vim-master/ still not listing a way to quit
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12:37<andythenorth>:q ?
12:37<andythenorth>if vim is like emacs
12:37<andythenorth>you probably never want to quit
12:37<andythenorth>I worked with someone who ran their entire computer via emacs
12:37<Wolf01>Eh, but are you on edit mode or command mode?
12:38<@Alberth>It's a "master" cheat sheet, they know how to quit the program :)
12:38<andythenorth>I am usually on ‘wtf, how do I leave?’ mode
12:38<andythenorth>I only get into vim by mistake :P
12:38<andythenorth>‘this is terrifying I hope I don’t break the repo'
12:38<andythenorth>usually
12:38<@Alberth>it has some commands I didn't know :)
12:39<Wolf01>I'm used to nano/pico, ctrl+key and the function guide on the bottom of the screen
12:39<@Alberth>maybe configure your EDITOR environment variable, andy :)
12:40<@Alberth>Wolf01: escape key, then :q! and an 'enter'
12:40<andythenorth>such leet skills
12:40<Wolf01>Yeah
12:41<supermop>yo andythenorth
12:41<@Alberth>something you once configure in your shell setup and then completely forget, andy :)
12:41<Wolf01>But I was raised with Ms/IBM DOS, so Ctrl+key commands are more familiar to me
12:41*andythenorth should google how to do it
12:41<Wolf01>Also a fuckload of Fn hotkeys
12:42<Wolf01>And ctrl+shift+f12 to save
12:42<@Alberth>I specifically picked vim for not having weird key combinations to press
12:42<@Alberth>or vi, at the time :p
12:42<Wolf01>Oh, they changed to ctrl+s to save in notepad, finally, open is still ctrl+f123
12:42<Wolf01>*f12
12:43<Wolf01>Isn't :q! a weird combination?
12:43<@Alberth>you can type each letter separately
12:43<Wolf01>Yes, ok
12:44<@Alberth>instead of pressing several keys at the same time :)
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12:54<Wolf01>Quak
12:55<frosch123>moo
12:55<supermop>yo frosch123
12:56<andythenorth>quak
12:56<andythenorth>like a fricking farm here
12:56<Wolf01>At least we are not furry I hope
12:57<supermop>frosch123: https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=76402&p=1193139#p1193139
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12:58<supermop>i dont think the livery updates are working, but i may have messed up the callback
12:59<frosch123>i didn't even know it was no longer called trolleybi
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13:33<andythenorth>so cb36 seems to work to adjust wagon speed by date
13:33<andythenorth>frosch123: ^ any reason I can’t rely on that?
13:35<frosch123>you can't change properties by date
13:35<frosch123>use last_service_date or something
13:36<andythenorth>what fails?
13:36<andythenorth>it works in SP
13:36<andythenorth>I remember your prior warning, so I was surprised :P
13:36<frosch123>vehicles change speed when reloading the game, thus desync
13:36<andythenorth>right
13:36<andythenorth>that is…unwanted :)
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13:37<andythenorth>presumably problem exists even if only checking year ?
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13:37<supermop>frosch123: at some point it felt weird to call it that when only 8 out of hundreds of vehicles are trolleybuses
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13:38<frosch123>andythenorth: write a gs that stops all vehicles in december, and restarts them in january
13:38<andythenorth>last_service_date is fine too
13:39<andythenorth>I thought there were specific triggers for cb 36, but I seem to have imagined that
13:40<supermop>frosch123: i might try to use last service date for liveries and drop the random
13:40<supermop>i ran a tram for 25 years with a depot stop about every 40 days, and saw no livery upgrade
13:44<andythenorth>second problem
13:44<andythenorth>I’m not sure that using cb36 to adjust wagon speeds is good
13:45<andythenorth>also I’d need to check wagonspeedlimits
13:45<andythenorth>and respect player choice
13:45<andythenorth>nor sure that’s possible
13:47<andythenorth>hmm
13:49<andythenorth>what problem am I solving again? o_O
13:51<frosch123>integer train lengths?
13:51<andythenorth>think that’s…different
13:51<andythenorth>I was going to say ‘solved’, but in my test game…blah
13:52<andythenorth>problem is that 6 generations of engine means 6 generations of wagon
13:52<andythenorth>a) fills up buy menu (no reliable way to expire previous gen)
13:52<andythenorth>b) hard to graphically show difference, whilst keeping consistent gestalt and colour scheme
13:54<andythenorth>changing speed with cb 36 solves (b), makes zero difference for (a)
13:54<andythenorth>assuming 3 or 4 generations not 6
13:55<frosch123>why does the number of wagon gens have to match the number of engine generations?
13:58<andythenorth>speed limits
13:59<supermop>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pqtfnpvv1
13:59<andythenorth>‘have’ is a strong word
13:59<andythenorth>more accurate: assuming a set design for freight & pax (faster) engine classes, it’s necessary to limit wagon speeds
13:59<andythenorth>the set design might be flawed
14:00<andythenorth>not too late to change, but seems to work ok in playing
14:01<andythenorth>alternatives to wagon speeds....
14:02<andythenorth>- use wagon attach cb (but I don’t want to prevent player using faster engine on freight, it just won’t go faster)
14:02<andythenorth>- enforce requirement for caboose on freight train, and set speeds only on 6 generations of caboose, all other wagons unlimited
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14:03<andythenorth>- set speed on engine, depending on wagons (check user bits) and/or cargo refit (but requires complicated buy menu text)
14:03<andythenorth>- set wagon speeds on cb36, changing when new engines are introduced, and have fewer generations
14:04<andythenorth>- or just use wagon speeds and 6 generations (current implementation)
14:04<andythenorth>[end]
14:06<Wolf01>Shit, turned my head to send 4 messages on telegram, back here monologue wall
14:08<andythenorth>such
14:08<Wolf01><andythenorth> speed limits <- bullshit? I would like more a train which recover speed fast than one that can travel at light speed and you need 4 engines to pull 25 wagons
14:09<andythenorth>dunno that the game models that :)
14:10<Wolf01>My trains usually can't reach even the wagon speed limit... slow engines or didn't think enough about the power
14:11<andythenorth>do you have freight weight 1?
14:11<andythenorth>or higher?
14:11<Wolf01>I think something like 5
14:12*andythenorth uses 1
14:12<Wolf01>But I think I set it lower, 2 or 3
14:12*andythenorth tries 5 in test game
14:13<andythenorth>quite brutal :P
14:13<andythenorth>such realistic
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14:14<@Alberth>more steam engines!
14:15<andythenorth>feedback sought http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/iron-horse/push/LATEST/
14:15<andythenorth>I like it ok, but I don’t love it
14:15<andythenorth>and that probably means it sucks :P
14:18<frosch123>supermop: that won't work
14:25<andythenorth>so you all play with wagon speed limits off? o_O
14:25<supermop>:(
14:26<frosch123>supermop: the graphics selection only checks the built_year, never the random bits
14:26<Wolf01>No, I play with them on, but I play also with track speed limits and weight multiplier
14:26<supermop>huh
14:26<frosch123>also, using "random_trigger:" in "graphics" voids all guarantees
14:27<supermop>can i omit it?
14:27<Wolf01>Aahah
14:27<frosch123>supermop: i may not know what you try to achieve
14:28<frosch123>andythenorth: probably depends on the set, but wagon speed limits used to restrict engine choice, so removed gameplay
14:28<supermop>uh just that sometimes a tram with livery A get repainted to new livery B
14:28<supermop>but b never gets A
14:29<supermop>i think i follow the long chain of random switches you wrote
14:29<supermop>but i dont really understand where the tram should enter that chain
14:30<frosch123>supermop: remove "random trigger", and replace all references of "switch_se2_style" with "maybe_se2_B"
14:30<supermop>ok
14:30<frosch123>well, there is only one reference, in line 71
14:30<supermop>do i need the switch_se2_... at all?
14:30<supermop>the livery by build year
14:31<frosch123>switch_se2_style is not needed
14:31<supermop>the random switches will handle it at all
14:31<supermop>?
14:32<frosch123>i think so
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14:33<andythenorth>how about build trains like trams?
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14:34<andythenorth>integral unit, engine + fixed carriages?
14:34<andythenorth>shorter buy menu overall :P
14:35<supermop>andythenorth: my tram menu is much longer
14:35<supermop>you will get combinatorial explosion
14:36<supermop>instead of one deltic
14:37<supermop>you get deltic with 8 carriages, deltic with 10 carriages, ... deltic with 8 mail carriages, deltic with one mail and 7 passenger...
14:37<supermop>then all of the above for every type of engine
14:38<andythenorth>no no
14:38<andythenorth>they’re all just 2 tiles :P
14:38<andythenorth>TL 2 always
14:41<Wolf01><andythenorth> how about build trains like trams? <- supermop, what I was saying some days ago?
14:43<andythenorth>so many dimensions to trains :P
14:45<Wolf01>We had this exact discussion
14:45<Wolf01>With the usual "if andy..."
14:47<supermop>andythenorth: i wish i could build trams and trucks like trains, would shorten my buy menu a lot
14:48<frosch123>why is length of purchase list still an issue?
14:48<frosch123>we have "hide engines"
14:48<andythenorth>searching time?
14:48<andythenorth>fair point though
14:49<andythenorth>issue is findability, not length per se
14:49*andythenorth will screenshot
14:50<Wolf01>Could we have a purchase list like a tree view (like refit list)? And decide to group by cargo or by generation?
14:50<frosch123>you can filter by cargo
14:50<frosch123>quite annoying to use though
14:50<frosch123>why would you build an older generation?
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14:51<Wolf01>Money?
14:52<andythenorth>by mistake?
14:52<andythenorth>mis-clicking?
14:52<andythenorth>usability failure?
14:52<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8690/horse_buy.png
14:52<frosch123>anyway, if finability is an issue, add icons
14:53<Wolf01>With my play style a vehicle which run 50km/h, with 20t capacity, and $6000 running cost is preferable to a vehicle which go 56km/h 22t $9000
14:53<frosch123>livestock car should be a refit option fo rhte box car
14:53<frosch123>i can hardly distinguish open car and hopper car, no idea what a dump car is
14:54<frosch123>tank, silo and edibles should also be refit
14:54<frosch123>wtf is fruit&vegetables car?
14:54<frosch123>is it refridgerated or box car?
14:54<andythenorth>neither
14:54<andythenorth>it’s fruit & vegetables car :)
14:55<andythenorth>aim is lots of wagons
14:55<frosch123>so you won? :p
14:55<andythenorth>I was winnig
14:55<andythenorth>then I had to extend past 1990
14:55<andythenorth>started losing :P
14:56<andythenorth>it’s all just too much :P
14:57<Wolf01>After 90 is just intermodal with refits and a lot of cargo sprites
14:58<supermop>frosch123: my problem is that you might have 1 type of truck/cab but 10 types of body or trailer for it
14:59<Wolf01>Change the whole graphic along with the selected refit?
14:59<andythenorth>supermop: I tried that in Hog
14:59<andythenorth>it’s nonsense
14:59<andythenorth>original game got it right, lots of body types
15:00<andythenorth>truck part is almost irrelevant, body style + cargo sprites are the interesting bit in game
15:00<andythenorth>~most sets get this wrong :D :x
15:00<andythenorth>NUTS got closest, but in a very V453000 way
15:01<supermop>andythenorth: lost of body types is fine, but would be nice if you could buy the trailers separately
15:01<andythenorth>nah, it comes to the same
15:01<andythenorth>I have been into that rabbit warren :)
15:01<supermop>get a new tractor every few years but can still use the same old flatbed
15:02<supermop>road train with 3 or 4 trailers? buy whatever you want
15:02<supermop>mix different type of trailers while at it
15:03<supermop>if i have a circa 1990 diesel truck, trolley truck, and dual mode truck, i could have 3 tractors and 9 trailers, instead of 27 trucks
15:03<Wolf01>http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1139969701 nice
15:05<andythenorth>when the change is visually more substantial…the generations work well http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8691/horse_buy_2.png
15:25<andythenorth>current preference: generations add more capacity, speed limit is magic
15:25<andythenorth>but which magic? o_O
15:26<andythenorth>slaved to engine ID (possible)
15:26<andythenorth>slaved to last_service_date (possible, but I have servicing disabled)
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15:28<frosch123>engine purchase date?
15:29<andythenorth>interesting idea
15:29<andythenorth>engine can only be purchased in depot, right? o_O
15:30*andythenorth wonders about buying engines in stations :P
15:30<frosch123>assuming you only buy new wagons together with new engines, it saves a lot of clikcs
15:31<andythenorth>basically I want to try ‘autoreplace engine, wagons get faster'
15:31<andythenorth>there are probably multiple ways to implement
15:40<@Alberth>wagons have no limit, engine does
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16:36<andythenorth>maybe just 4 wagon generations
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20:04<supermop_>hmm
20:05<Wolf01>Yes
20:05<supermop_>I am being lazy and reusing the truck beds for short old trucks
20:05<supermop_>as wagons for industrial trams
20:06<supermop_>but becuase those are 'stacked' behind the truck cab, they are like 2/8 'back' on the sprite sheet
20:06<supermop_>so they show up floating behind their wheels when I use them as wagons
20:07<supermop_>I wonder what the laziest solution is
20:08<supermop_>add a 2nd template that positions them forward into the front of the sprite? that means really defining all the sprites again
20:09<supermop_>shift them all over 2/8 in the .pngs and redefine there? that would be more work but maybe make it easier to add more recoloring support
20:10<supermop_>I dont thing there is another way to shift a sprite other than the template
20:29<Wolf01>'night
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20:48<ATMunn>o/
21:09<Gustavo6046><3 https://i.imgur.com/EwDqi4E.png
21:09<Gustavo6046>also good night my pals
21:09<Gustavo6046>I could make a road FULL of buses, this game is awesome
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---Logclosed Tue Oct 17 00:00:42 2017