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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-10-17

---Logopened Tue Oct 17 00:00:42 2017
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04:13<V453000>huminz
04:15<Arveen>reberts
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04:50<Wolf01>o/
04:51<V453000>must finish brainz
04:51<V453000>*brix
04:51<Wolf01>Zombie V
04:53<V453000>ye
04:53<V453000>it's been too long again
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04:54<Wolf01>Iz fall creator update yet? I would like to figure out if I belong to the first wave of testers
04:55<V453000>fall creator update?
04:55<Wolf01>Yep
04:55<V453000>what isthat
04:55<Arveen>Windows 10 1709 16299.19
04:56<Wolf01>Ok, both pc and lumia didn't find anything, phew
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04:57<andythenorth>Wolf01: “after 2010, everything is intermodal"
04:57<andythenorth>discuss :P
04:57<V453000>the the world ending today or?
04:57<Wolf01>o/
04:57<andythenorth>V453000: that was yesterday, red sun day
04:58<V453000>oh
04:58<V453000>shit, missed it
04:58<Wolf01>Yes, I read about that
04:58<andythenorth>so gen 6 freight (year 2020) in Horse is fucked
04:58<andythenorth>just adding one more step of regular progression doesn’t work, for stats
04:58<andythenorth>or visually
05:00<andythenorth>I solved similar problem for pax with whole new class of trains
05:00<andythenorth>smash progression into pieces
05:01<Wolf01>Mmmh, trying to invent future trains which looks realistic it's like the "Class problem: Italy has economic problems, how would you resolve that?... If economists can't do that, how could a high school student solve that?"
05:02<andythenorth>agreed
05:02<andythenorth>2020 is barely future though :D
05:02<andythenorth>you can see it from here :P
05:03<Wolf01>I think we hit a hard limit with the current implementation, you can switch to a different mean of transport like monorail, maglev, hyperloop... but then you will have again the "upgrade infrastructure and ALL THE TRAINS" problem
05:03<andythenorth>I never understood that problem
05:03<andythenorth>I play on small maps
05:04<andythenorth>not many trains
05:04<andythenorth>understood / experienced /s
05:04<Wolf01>I don't even use monorail and maglev
05:04<Wolf01>If I want to use maglev I start in 2050
05:05<andythenorth>I could just knock speed limit off gen 5 :P
05:06<andythenorth>I don’t want to add gen 6 wagons (I already added them, and have now deleted)
05:06<andythenorth>but gen 6 upgraded engines without wagon upgrades….is weird
05:07<V453000>is't not that bad
05:07<V453000>systematically it's not a problem at all
05:07<Wolf01>We need a tracktype which doesn't allow curves, so you need to make interchange stations and go zigzag through the entire map, and shoot trains at mach 3 between stations
05:07<andythenorth>V453000: you think more TE and HP is a worthwhile upgrade?
05:07<V453000>NUTS lvl3 wagon is there since idk, 1990, and you still get modern engines in 2020 or something
05:07<V453000>it is
05:08<V453000>but speed is obviously better for good feeling
05:08<andythenorth>example 3600hp -> 4200hp, 498KN -> 557KN
05:08<andythenorth>speed would only be 10mph
05:08<V453000>100mph is kind of boring low
05:08<andythenorth>and already pax trains are 200mph at that point, so network has to be split
05:08<andythenorth>I think in late game there is no way to avoid fucking with players network
05:08<andythenorth>that kind of is the gameplay at that point
05:09<andythenorth>optimum wagon size is 40, so going to like 80 or something is just dumb
05:10<V453000>well you can always hook up passenger wagons to freight engine, or even better the grf can provide a pax train with the same speed as the freight
05:10<Wolf01>Make it so in late game you start to shrink trains, new technologies allow to store 8x the amount of goods in a train car and you will end up with 1 tile trains, engine+wagon
05:11<V453000>but possibly with better loading speed, capacity or something
05:11<Wolf01>Ok, not realistic at all :P
05:11<andythenorth>Wolf01: not unrealistic
05:11<andythenorth>most freight train upgrades are about more capacity per unit length IRL
05:11<andythenorth>not speed
05:11<andythenorth>TL is the most important thing in RL, similar to coop :P
05:12<V453000>coop = RL
05:12<andythenorth>shorter TL, better network utilisation
05:12<andythenorth>coop = life
05:12<V453000>damn straight
05:12<Wolf01>Meanwhile in transport fever I'm losing the shit on the new pax trains... one wagon running cost is more than the purchase price of the engine
05:12<andythenorth>grf does provide like a slow pax train
05:12<andythenorth>and mail
05:12<andythenorth>matched to freight
05:12<V453000>see easy then
05:12<andythenorth>also super-duper fast train, fucks your network up
05:13<peter1139>I can't believe they retired the bubble car service here ;(
05:13<V453000>that's fine
05:13<andythenorth>peter1139: do you get a 139 instead?
05:13<V453000>people usually either go full passengers (with the fast trains), go full freight (with only the slow trains), or mix it with the slow trains
05:13<V453000>that's totally normal
05:13<peter1139>It's a 165 instead.
05:14<peter1139>2 car
05:14<andythenorth>peter1139: watched this the other day https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwjTBQULiZU
05:14*andythenorth watches train videos on exercise bike :o
05:14<peter1139>That's the station, yeah.
05:15<andythenorth>bubble car
05:15<peter1139>Yeah, that's the one they no longer use :(
05:16<peter1139>Heh, those people getting off are like, shit, that's my connection going.
05:17<peter1139>That's something that bugs me about path signals, that they pretty much always show red.
05:18<andythenorth>so they do
05:18<andythenorth>sprite for yellow? o_O
05:19<V453000>it's a message to the player that they shouldn't build them
05:21<andythenorth>V453000 comedian
05:21<andythenorth>making grfs is weird
05:21*andythenorth constantly confused by it
05:22<peter1139>It was either in my day. You wrote in NFO or nothing.
05:22<V453000>I'm confused why do I keep doing it
05:22<V453000>then I reassure myself that I enjoy it and continue
05:24<andythenorth>meh
05:24<andythenorth>I keep banging my head
05:24<andythenorth>need for logical stats progression seems to destroy interest
05:25<V453000>well if that's the case then you should care about logical progression less :P
05:25<andythenorth>I don’t care about it, but every time I try and break from it
05:25<andythenorth>looks weird :x
05:25<V453000>mh
05:27<andythenorth>same in brix, you try and force it one way
05:27<andythenorth>then it fights and goes the way it needs to
05:28<V453000>well yeah but brix is a production of the shitflakes in my head
05:28<V453000>anything can be 'right' there
05:29<andythenorth>should I do a realism coloured train set? o_O
05:29<andythenorth>at least then wagons look different per generation
05:29<andythenorth>because realism
05:29<V453000>what does realism coloured even mean? :P
05:29<andythenorth>problem is CC looks boss
05:29<andythenorth>realism would be like....dunno
05:30<andythenorth>CC rules
05:30<V453000>:D
05:30<andythenorth>I have HO trains in the loft
05:30<andythenorth>and I theme by colour
05:30<andythenorth>I have enough hues of box car that I can make nearly a full rainbow
05:31<V453000>HO?
05:31<V453000>ah that thing
05:35<V453000>idk, I already use colours for so many things that the rest is always just kind of desaturated if possible
05:35<V453000>player CC, wagon cargo colour, cargo colour, possibly second player CC
05:36<V453000>that's a lot of shit for a wagon
05:36<V453000>-> I will probably completely remove player CC1 and 2 from wagons
05:36<andythenorth>I do either CC1 (random recolour to CC2) or cargo colour
05:37<andythenorth>so gen 6 problem
05:37<andythenorth>is silhouettes
05:37<andythenorth>by gen 5, wagon pretty much fills frame, at any length
05:37<andythenorth>making all generations smaller would make gen 1 ~invisible
05:38<andythenorth>and if size doesn’t change, hard to tell generations apart
05:38<V453000>making early wagons smaller is ok, later on not
05:38<V453000>autoreplace doesn't add :P
05:39<andythenorth>gen 1 is already pretty small
05:39<andythenorth>like 4/8, and not many pixels high
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05:39<andythenorth>ah fuck it :)
05:39<andythenorth>work to do
05:39<andythenorth>bbl
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05:39<V453000>:D
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05:59<andythenorth>maybe chibi more wagons
05:59<andythenorth>dunno
06:00<V453000>moar shortz?
06:00<andythenorth>maybe
06:00<andythenorth>no 8/8 until gen 6
06:00<V453000>my ultimate answer to chibi will be 24/8 steamers with tenders
06:00<andythenorth>if a gen 6 is necessary, then chibi
06:00<V453000>:D
06:01<V453000>and hopefully I won't run to frosch crying for grf specs
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08:14<Wolf01>Upgrading bridges in TF makes you shit bricks :|
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08:22<V453000>nice I should try TF then
08:22<V453000>see if it shits brix
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09:34<supermop_>yo
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09:45<andythenorth>yo
09:45<andythenorth>chibi is the only solution tbh
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09:45<Samu>hi
09:45<V453000>:D nice discovery andythenorth
09:46<andythenorth>chibi gen 5
09:46<andythenorth>then big gen 6
09:46<andythenorth>all visual problems solved
09:47<andythenorth>also it breaks any possibility that these sprites are realistic UK trains from 1990 :P
09:47<andythenorth>wrecked
09:47<V453000>ultimate win achieved
09:51<andythenorth>also I might have to break colour rules
09:51<andythenorth>like classes of wagons are supposed to always have identical colour scheme
09:51<andythenorth>makes it hard to show difference
09:51<supermop_>TTO all chibi
09:51<supermop_>and all good
09:54<supermop_>so frosch's livery code seems to sort-of work
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09:55<supermop_>my z classes bought in 1978 all switch from 70s to 80s livery around 1980
09:55<supermop_>but then did not switch from 80s to 90s livery at all in the 90s
09:56<supermop_>also buying ~20 new trams in 1995ish yields some in 70s livery, some in 80s
09:56<supermop_>so needs more work
09:57<andythenorth>standard :)
09:57<supermop_>random_switch seems arcane to me
09:58<supermop_>also the 25% chance is effectively 100% over the course of a year for me
09:59<supermop_>no tram was able to keep it's old livery for more than 2 months
09:59<supermop_>might need to try on trams that are not forced to service
10:00<supermop_>if it is going to be 100%, might as well just use a regular switch
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10:02<Samu>I'm inclined to adjust the formula a little
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10:04<Samu>final_cost = cost_at_this_point + cost_at_this_point * length_of_parts_without_cost^2 / divisor
10:04<Samu>will change divisor to divisor * 2 or divisor * 3
10:04<Samu>so that default costs decrease
10:07<V453000>that sounds pretty wtf supermop :)
10:08<supermop_>V453000: I DREW ALL THESE LIVERIES I MUST SEE THEM
10:08<V453000>:D
10:08<V453000>dayum
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10:10<Samu>have to make up my mind
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12:55<supermop_>how much would you pay for this thing: https://imgur.com/a/5jqzy
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13:33<FLHerne>Er, what is it/
13:33<FLHerne>?
13:34<frosch123>tuesday
13:34<FLHerne>It looks like a strangely-proportioned cupboard, a shelf, and some weird bar
13:35<FLHerne>I don't really see why you'd want those bits of furniture to be integrated, nor can I imagine ever wanting them in that arrangement
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13:45<V453000>supermop about 300 euros here max :)
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13:45<V453000>with a fancy hanger on it
13:45<V453000>without fancy hanger 150
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14:03<andythenorth>chibi chibi chibi
14:07<andythenorth>beer wagon! http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=14574&d=1408489638
14:08<andythenorth>cement wagon! http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/img/s/v-3/p518837612-3.jpg
14:08<Gustavo6046>I want to do an OpenTTD-based game in Java, but with a futuristic setting. I know C++, but I'm not good with modding existing C++ projects, esp. big ones.
14:09<andythenorth>supermop: such engine https://www.steamtrainsireland.com/storage/rpsi-collection/1140x0/1971_23_dublin-1.jpg
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14:14<Wolf01>Why am I so mind fucked? I started building another transformable SDF-1 :|
14:17<andythenorth>blah
14:17<andythenorth>sprites
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14:26<andythenorth>bah, plan failed
14:26<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8692/hoppers_blah.png
14:26<andythenorth>I made gen 5 chibi so it looks different to gen 6
14:26<Gustavo6046>Does this huge rail line make me a mad man? https://i.imgur.com/3yiOcZN.png
14:26<andythenorth>but now it looks same as gen 2, 3, 4
14:26*andythenorth has fucked up
14:26<Gustavo6046>Over 700k expenses.
14:27<andythenorth>Gustavo6046: that is not very big line
14:27<Gustavo6046>I know
14:27<Gustavo6046>You must have seen larger
14:27<andythenorth>sounds expensive, but eh, might a currency thing
14:27<Gustavo6046>But I have not ever gone further before.
14:27<Gustavo6046>It is in BRL
14:27<andythenorth>everyone starts somewhere :)
14:27<Gustavo6046>Yeah :P
14:27<Gustavo6046>Thanks.
14:28<Gustavo6046>How much profit do you think this line will give in the end?
14:28<andythenorth>dunno :)
14:28<andythenorth>you building stations in the intermediate towns?
14:28<Gustavo6046>Hopefully a lot. This distance should at least triple the medium-distance lines.
14:28<Gustavo6046>Chintbridge actually has 6K pop.
14:28<andythenorth>long distance pax usually makes high profit
14:28<Gustavo6046>Yes
14:29<andythenorth>vanilla game, or using newgrfs?
14:29<Gustavo6046>Vanilla
14:29<andythenorth>ok
14:29<andythenorth>probably makes quite a lot of profit if you get the trains right
14:30<andythenorth>V453000: can I rage quit yet? :x
14:35<Gustavo6046>so
14:35<Gustavo6046>I will make profit https://i.imgur.com/BiUXWnx.png
14:35<Gustavo6046>but I will need to make this a monorail if I want it to work
14:35<Gustavo6046>AsiaStars can't go fast enough, right?
14:36<Gustavo6046>Especially with the lots of wagons (required to maximize the left side of profit : operation costs ratio in long distances).
14:36<andythenorth>regular trains can make profit over long distance
14:37<andythenorth>but there is some limit where maglev is probably more profitable
14:37<andythenorth>probably, knowing OTTD community, someone has made charts about it
14:37<Gustavo6046>Yeah
14:38<Gustavo6046>But if I make a bus from a side of the map to the other, it'll do n BRL/year; n < 0 :P
14:38<Gustavo6046>n <= 0*
14:38<andythenorth>yup
14:38<Gustavo6046>But hey, it's already crossed it all!
14:38<Gustavo6046>It has*
14:38<Gustavo6046>(''s' is for 'is', not 'has')
14:38<Gustavo6046>ops
14:38<Gustavo6046>yeah
14:39<Gustavo6046>Anyway.
14:39<Gustavo6046>andythenorth, I had to avoid lots of slopes, making it a tortuous path.
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14:42<Gustavo6046>The AsiaStar went with no cargo, and will return like so too.
14:42<Gustavo6046>This will be a slow start, it seems...
14:42<Gustavo6046>But hey
14:42<Gustavo6046>1877 passengers and 401 mail bags await the train!
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14:51<andythenorth>supermop: should I admit defeat, and use different colours per generation? http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8693/use_colour.png
14:52<supermop_>cost for making that cabinet will be about $6500 USD
14:52<supermop_>andythenorth: maybe?
14:52<supermop_>grey, grey with 1 cc, grey with 2cc, 1cc, 1cc with 2cc
14:53<andythenorth>6.5k is not small change
14:53<andythenorth>chibi basically wins me nothing eh
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14:57<andythenorth>every way I cut this, it’s fail
14:58<andythenorth>I can reduce to 1 wagon type, and it’s still fail
14:58<andythenorth>I can go chibi or not, fail
14:58<andythenorth>I can have just one size of wagon, not 2, still fail
14:59<andythenorth>only solution: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVM1nUmDHHc
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15:04<Gustavo6046>over 140K profit :D
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16:00<supermop_>andythenorth: custom cabinetry and metal work
16:01<andythenorth>not IKEA then
16:01*andythenorth deletes more sprites
16:01<andythenorth>this is why I do the – views only :P
16:01<andythenorth>kind of in desperation territory
16:02<andythenorth>deleting 50% of the wagons doesn’t actualy solve anything :P
16:03<andythenorth>limiting Horse 1860-2010 would help :P
16:03<andythenorth>instead of going to 2050
16:14<supermop_>just use callback to increase HP and speed of 2010 train every 10 years
16:20<andythenorth>‘upgrades'
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16:43<supermop_>coaches/city buses?
16:43<supermop_>same bus but refit to either coach or bus?
16:44<supermop_>sprite stack composite on either one or two doors
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17:11<Eddi|zuHause>i see little point in the refitting
17:16<supermop_>i feel like my buses are too fast
17:17<supermop_>but a slow city bus is a pain inter-town
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>yes
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>but that is not a refit
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>that should be two busses
17:20<Eddi|zuHause>city bus: double capacity, half speed
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17:57<andythenorth>supermop_: what Eddi said :)
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17:57<andythenorth>that’s my $0.02 anyway :)
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18:07<supermop_>andythenorth: i can see the light at the end of the tunnel with my broken trams
18:08<supermop_>so now i need to break buses again
18:21<supermop_>home time
18:24<andythenorth>ha
18:24<andythenorth>bye
18:24<andythenorth> :)
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19:19<Wolf01>'night
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19:56<Gustavo6046>Any way to speed up maglev uphills?
19:56<Gustavo6046>So it does not suffer going around this big lake https://i.imgur.com/FFnuEb5.png
19:57<supermop>realistic acceleration on?
20:36<Gustavo6046>no
20:36<Gustavo6046>what is that?
20:36<Gustavo6046>a NewGRF? then no
20:36<supermop>no it is a game setting
20:37<supermop>with original acceleration even powerful trains struggle on hills
20:37<supermop>with realistic acceleration, if a train already has a high speed and hits a small hill, it will not slow down much
20:38<supermop>and also, with realistic acceleration on, you might notice that trains with several locomotives can at least take advantage of that extra power
20:39<supermop>go to settings menu, -> vehicles -> physics
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---Logclosed Wed Oct 18 00:00:44 2017