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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-10-19

---Logopened Thu Oct 19 00:00:45 2017
01:51-!-andythenorth [~andytheno@cpc87219-aztw31-2-0-cust178.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd
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01:51<V453000>him
01:53<andythenorth>I hate him
01:53<andythenorth>such idiot
01:53<andythenorth>who?
02:15<V453000>yes
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02:23<andythenorth>6/8 or 8/8 for long wagons?
02:23<andythenorth>or 0/8 (delete them)
02:25<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8696/horsey_horsey_3.png
02:25<andythenorth>4/8 and 6/8
02:25<andythenorth>4/8 and 8/8
02:53<V453000>you know my opinion about weird lengths :) other than that they look awesome
02:53<andythenorth>logic says 8/8
02:53<andythenorth>- 6/8 doesn’t make integer lengths very often
02:54<andythenorth>but 6/8 looks better
02:54<andythenorth>“but what is reason for having 2 lengths andythenorth?"
02:55<andythenorth>- for when different trains (orders, cargos) need to use same wagon class
02:55<andythenorth>helps player distinguish them
02:55<andythenorth>looks more interesting
02:56<V453000>well it's certainly cool to have 6/8, it's a nice middle ground between the short and long
02:56<V453000>but yeah :)
02:57<andythenorth>3 lengths? :P
02:58<V453000>if I didn't have integer hitlerism, I would have made gen 1,2,3 in 4,6,8 too
02:59<andythenorth>what is rationale?
02:59<andythenorth>other than spamming menu?
03:00<andythenorth>https://www.tes.com/teaching-resource/goldilocks-and-the-three-bears-size-ordering-6023927
03:01<andythenorth>ha ha https://curryja.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/goldilocks.jpg
03:08<V453000>:) iz 3
03:08<andythenorth>not doing 3 lengths for all of them :P
03:08<V453000>:D well you don't exactly have to I guess
03:09<V453000>further variety
03:09<andythenorth>innit
03:13<V453000>having everything super consistent is good, but at the same time no variety at all is boring
03:13<V453000>nuts is having this problem kind of
03:14<V453000>the ultimate wagon is awesome, but it completely removes the fiddling with wagons, their lengths and stuff
03:14<V453000>you just use the wagon
03:14<andythenorth>it’s a nice end-run around the problem
03:15<andythenorth>but I like the train building bit of the game
03:15<andythenorth>I just don’t want to do economic analysis of the most optimum wagon given all factors :x
03:15<andythenorth>like most grfs :P
03:20<V453000>I go, baby business
03:20<V453000>cyaz
03:21<andythenorth>laterz
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04:30<andythenorth>V453000: fuck it, probably fine like this, right? http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8697/horsey_tank_attack.png
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05:00<andythenorth>also http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8698/horsey_tanks_a_lot.png
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05:04<Wolf01>o/
05:04<andythenorth>yo
05:12<Wolf01>Shitty java update, always fail to download
05:17<andythenorth>hmm
05:17<andythenorth>horse has fewer wagon types than original TTD
05:17*andythenorth thought it was a lot more
05:17<andythenorth>never forget Toyland :P
05:20<Wolf01>I'm glad that TF only have 4 types of wagons
05:20<Wolf01>Open box/hopper, flat, liquid and bulk
05:20<andythenorth>does it auto-refit?
05:21<Wolf01>Yes
05:21<andythenorth>fair
05:21<Wolf01>Automatically
05:21<Wolf01>If you don't force a cargo refit it autorefits, which is a thing I hate and love
05:24<andythenorth>bbl
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07:47<Wolf01>andythenorth: chibi -> https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-_2KmeRqjy40/V1qc3Y64GuI/AAAAAAAAHj8/V-HmMh67na83ELe3F91GPOTrG_7ooxnRACLcB/s1600/Havetsby%2BVehicles%2Bby%25C2%25A0Joh%25C5%258B.jpg
07:49<andythenorth>kind of inverse chibi
07:49<andythenorth>those crawler track vehicles are huge :)
07:51<Wolf01>I think I need some kre-o parts for my moc
07:51<Wolf01>And as a purist this make me sad
07:53<Wolf01>http://the-mobile-frame-garage.blogspot.com/ <- got tempted by this blog
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09:29<supermop_>yo
09:29<Wolf01>o/
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09:30<Wolf01>I have just a bit of appetite...
09:30<andythenorth>I have jerk goat curry and rice
09:30<andythenorth>possibly I won
09:30<Wolf01>I finished the biscuits
09:31<Wolf01>6 packs in a month
09:31<Wolf01>I think I ate my weight in biscuits
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09:33<Gustavo6046>This API is soooo big!
09:33<Gustavo6046>I'm still trying to find the function that gives the TownID of the nth largest town.
09:33<supermop_>6 packs of biscuits sounds much less heavy than a person
09:33<supermop_>(or a wolf)
09:33<Gustavo6046>Or how to get current balance.
09:34<supermop_>apparently i exported like half of my p menu sprites with wrong pallette
09:34<Wolf01>supermop_: depends on the weight of the biscuits and my weight
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09:35<Gustavo6046>inb4 as heavy as a 9 year old
09:35<Gustavo6046>(jk)
09:36<Gustavo6046>Anyway, I've got to look for things.
09:37-!-Samu [~oftc-webi@pa4-84-91-142-34.netvisao.pt] has joined #openttd
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09:37<supermop_>i am imagining a large box of saltine crackers
09:38<supermop_>which is 1 lbs
09:38<supermop_>so 6 of those.... wolf weight 3 kg?
09:39<Wolf01>I eat 750-800g packs of biscuits
09:39<Samu>hi
09:40<Wolf01>Now I just want to eat one of those saw kit boxes full of butter biscuits
09:40<supermop_>so wolf weighs 4.8 kg
09:40<Samu>i made a pricing table for comparison
09:40<Samu>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=75982&p=1193009#p1193009
09:40<Gustavo6046>Hello Samu.
09:40<__ln__>Wolf01: why do you eat things like that in those quantities?
09:40<Samu>hi Gustavo6046
09:40<Gustavo6046>Well. I still can't seem to find out where to get the EngineID of the cheapest bus.
09:40<Wolf01>__ln__: To keep my BMI at a reasonable value
09:41<Gustavo6046>The function is not in AIEngine it seems.
09:41<Gustavo6046>Or then I searched wrong (Ctrl+F).
09:43<Samu>i tried to match running costs of trains with delivery rate of buses
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09:48<Samu>mps regal bus is to be compared with chaney jubilee / dash
09:48<Samu>hereford leopard bus vs floss 47 / sh 40
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09:50<Samu>well.. diesel engines are kinda... too cheap
09:51<Samu>steam engines are a little bit expensive
09:51<Samu>electric engines, at least the first ones, are in my view, in the right spot
09:52<supermop_>Samu: isn't that the point of diesel engines?
09:52<supermop_>that they are cheaper than steam
09:52<Samu>i guess in real life
09:52<Samu>dunno the history
09:52<supermop_>if everything is 'matched' what is the point of playing the game?
09:53<Samu>there's still no real balance regarding those 300+ km/h trains
09:54<supermop_>if a passenger route of x tiles has the same profit and cost for a given capacity regardless of bus , steam, or diesel train, why even bother have different types
09:54<supermop_>just build the route with whatever bus exists in 1930 and never change it
09:55<supermop_>Samu: if you offer me the chance to ride a 300kmh train from here to chicago or do the same journey on a bus, why would i ever take the bus
09:56<Samu>i'm not really into the social aspect of the game :(
09:56<supermop_>its kind of integral to the game that some modes of transit are objectively better
09:57<supermop_>the bus is easier and cheaper to set up, but is not as efficient or sustainable to scale over distance or capacity
09:58<supermop_>so different types are for different uses
09:58<andythenorth>also there has to be an optimum type
09:58<andythenorth>balancing is nonsense
09:58<supermop_>andythenorth: it is clearly trains
09:59<andythenorth>dragon-farming games aren’t balanced
09:59<andythenorth>well, they are, but not levelled
09:59<supermop_>but in the slow early game it might be too difficult to build a train line so the game gives you some shitty buses as a sop
10:00<andythenorth>yes
10:00<andythenorth>it’s progression
10:00<andythenorth>also trains can’t drive on water, so boats
10:02<andythenorth>supermop_: so I went full on overkill on wagons http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8697/horsey_tank_attack.png
10:02<Samu>i was just trying to closely match running costs of trains with the rest. I saw an opportunity to add costs on wagons
10:03<supermop_>don't wagons already have a running cost?
10:03<supermop_>nice tanks
10:03<Samu>the originals don't have
10:04<supermop_>Samu: at all?
10:04<supermop_>i never play with original vehicles
10:04<andythenorth>running cost is newgrf
10:04<Samu>they have an INVALID_PRICE or something
10:04<Samu>not even £0
10:05<Samu>patch identifies these wagons with INVALID_PRICE and then simulates costs
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10:06<Samu>i tried to make it newgrf friendly, but I suppose I'm failing somewhere
10:07<Samu>but i haven't found any newgrf with INVALID_PRICE on their wagons yet
10:07<Samu>do u know of any?
10:11<supermop_>simulates cost? does it just set cost to some value?
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10:12<andythenorth>replace original base set trains with newgrf :P
10:12<andythenorth>job done
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10:12<Samu>cost is based on parts that specify a cost, in the case of original trains, the engines
10:13<supermop_>Samu: a coal wagon should cost the same regardless of what pulls it
10:13<supermop_>running cost should be based on a % of the purchase cost
10:13<Samu>i tried a linear cost with v3
10:14<supermop_>if you want to get exotic it could cost more if it is being pulled faster, but that is problematic as the user doesn't necessarily know that will be the case
10:15<supermop_>if it says $10/year, but your wagon is costing you $20/year, it will look broken
10:15<Samu>it doesn't say what it costs until it's attached to an engin
10:15<supermop_>that is kind of problematic
10:15<Samu>it's not a fixed value
10:15<Samu>it's based on engine type and length of train
10:16<supermop_>why does a coal hopper cost more to repair depending on the engine that pulls it?
10:16<supermop_>are they paying to clean coal soot off of the roof
10:16<supermop_>?
10:18<Samu>:) yes, maybe
10:18<Samu>lol i dunno what to say about that
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10:18<Samu>the lenghtier the train, the costlier the running cost per wagon
10:19<supermop_>that is like the opposite of what it should be
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10:19<Samu>if you split those wagons with a 2nd train
10:19<supermop_>they whole point of a train, in game and in real life, is that it gets cheaper and more efficient as capacity goes up
10:19<Samu>the sum of both trains running costs should match
10:19<Gustavo6046>supermop_, I'm trying to first do a basic AI that uses the best available bus and links some towns using Djikstra algorithm
10:20<supermop_>two 500t trains should always cost more than one 1000t train
10:20<supermop_>that is the raison d'etre of trains
10:20<Samu>sec, let me see one thing here
10:21<supermop_>the tracks are expensive, and the locomotive costs more than a truck, but it can scale
10:22<supermop_>you are basically trying to encourage this: http://thundertrain.org/060314USOneStack-47R.jpg
10:23<Gustavo6046>lol
10:23<andythenorth>one piece flow
10:23<supermop_>neii don't see how it improves the game to have that ^ be equal to a truck, or for 100 of those ^ to be equal to one long train
10:23<andythenorth>most ultimate
10:23<Gustavo6046>I always though locomotives were too costly.
10:23<Samu>lol, signle wagon?
10:23<andythenorth>optimum for inventory turn
10:23<Samu>let me try
10:24<andythenorth>might not be optimum for network utilisation
10:24<andythenorth>or cost per unit
10:24<Samu>oki, i got 3 trains here, train 1 with 5 wagons, train 2 with 10 wagons, train 3 with 1 wagon
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10:24<supermop_>the locomotive is expensive, and impractical to pull one car, but the locomotive can pull 10 or 20 or 50 cars
10:24<andythenorth>self-powered wagon
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10:25<andythenorth>8/8, 750hp
10:25<andythenorth>40 crates
10:25<andythenorth>winning
10:25<supermop_>andythenorth: container railcar
10:25<andythenorth>yup
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10:25<supermop_>i wonder if pacer frame could support FCL
10:25<Samu>costs are train 1 - £9,981/yr, train 2 - £24,107/yr, train 3 - £5,461
10:25<Samu>cost per wagon are
10:26<supermop_>that looks really wrong
10:26<Gustavo6046>There could be a cheaper electric engine as well.
10:26<andythenorth>supermop_: pacer is a high-speed wagon chassis with a bus body on it
10:26<Gustavo6046>After the SH-40 is introduced.
10:26<Gustavo6046>I don't think it'd encourage trains with 1 wagon.
10:26<supermop_>you are saying that two 5 car trains are cheaper than one 10 car train
10:26<andythenorth>http://www.traintesting.com/HSFV1-4.htm supermop_
10:26<Samu>on train 1 - £941/yr, on train 2 - £1,883/yr, on train 3 - £188/yr
10:26<supermop_>andythenorth: i used to ride them all the time on harrogate line
10:27<supermop_>i am sorry that is stupidly dumb
10:28<Wolf01>supermop_: but you don't understand
10:28<supermop_>how the hell does a train with 1 locomotive and 10 cars cost more to run than two separate 5 car trains combined
10:28<Samu>looks like I was wrong when I said that
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10:29<Samu>well, because the cost of the engine might have an impact
10:29<Gustavo6046>supermop_, true, two engines cost more than one, their cost at around 60x the car cost makes it nearly indifferent without a shit ton of cars, which would require more engines too
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10:29<Samu>should be costlier to buy 2 engines
10:30<Samu>but running costs on the other hand.... yeah... are cheaper
10:30<@Alberth>2 engines against a mountain of money?
10:30<andythenorth>lo Alberth :)
10:30<Wolf01>Could running costs be made so they increase exponentially with the train age? In TF they are like this and make me constantly renew vehicles if I don't want to be submerged in debts... it costs less to renew vehicles than maintain 50y/o vehicles
10:30<@Alberth>lo andy :)
10:30<Gustavo6046>Alberth, if you had like 2M you could try 20 engines, in a well signaled track, and ??? then profit :)
10:30<Wolf01>o/ Alberth
10:30<Gustavo6046>hello!
10:30<supermop_>Wolf01: i think you can do that in nml
10:30<@Alberth>o/ all
10:31<Gustavo6046>meow.
10:31<andythenorth>yeah running costs can increase based on age, service date, etc
10:31<andythenorth>if there is an ‘r’ in the month
10:31<@Alberth>2M? in most games I have millions of millions
10:31<andythenorth>but not phase of the moon
10:31*andythenorth wonders if moon phase var could be added for newgrf
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10:32<andythenorth>we could presumably encode it for the day
10:32<@Alberth>day of month is quite a good approximation?
10:32<supermop_>andythenorth: you could probably figure it out via a complex switch
10:32<andythenorth>I guess newgrf could do it in a big switch
10:32<supermop_>yeah
10:32<Gustavo6046>So billions?
10:32<supermop_>"ship can't go to this dock... tide too low"
10:32<@Alberth>no idea, I never counted how many digits money I have
10:32<Gustavo6046>btw I'm eating rice, chicken and potato sticks.
10:33<andythenorth>who wanted tank wagon variety? http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8698/horsey_tanks_a_lot.png
10:33<Gustavo6046>These sticks http://i0.statig.com.br/bancodeimagens/f3/ek/3u/f3ek3u2k403mcstd3p5xpchuw.jpg
10:33<Gustavo6046>lmao andy awesome
10:33<Gustavo6046>release them all
10:33<@Alberth>around the 5-10th year my income is bigger than what I can spend. Then I stop caring about money
10:33<Gustavo6046>see the profit
10:33<supermop_>Alberth: i set my currency to won or yen so it is just a big indifferentiable pile
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10:34<Gustavo6046>Alberth, I don't usually profit a lot XD
10:34<Gustavo6046>Only if inflation is off
10:34<@Alberth>I do that standard, as inflation doesn't add anything useful
10:34<Gustavo6046>If I have inflation on all of my company dies!
10:34<Gustavo6046>:P
10:35<@Alberth>just generating big numbers without meaning
10:35<Gustavo6046>Yeah, it does give a realistic feel, but still sucks
10:35<Gustavo6046>Alberth, it increases cost without increasing the value of existing stuff
10:35<Gustavo6046>so early game is always a well valued game
10:35<Samu>so my formula is flawed somewhere :(
10:36<@Alberth>so it takes me a few more years to get to break-even
10:36<@Alberth>and then I stop caring :p
10:36<Samu>"how the hell does a train with 1 locomotive and 10 cars cost more to run than two separate 5 car trains combined" - thx supermop_
10:37<Gustavo6046>'Modern Motion - Rock Power' metal version who?
10:37<@Alberth>it's called non-linear costs :p
10:37<Gustavo6046>Yeah
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10:38<Samu>1/10 vs 1/5 + 1/5
10:39<@Alberth>technically, non-linear can also mean the 10cars cost less, but that happens suspicious few times
10:40<Samu>1/10 - £24,107/yr
10:41<Gustavo6046>Samu, 1/10 = 0.1 and 1/5 + 1/5 = 0.2 + 0.2 = 0.4
10:41<andythenorth>hmm
10:41<Samu>1/5 + 1/5 - £19,962/yr
10:41<andythenorth>if this ‘small’, ‘medium’, ‘large’ thing works, some of the ‘large’ wagons could be very large :P
10:41<@Alberth>mega large
10:41<@Alberth>aka huge
10:42<@Alberth>aka insane storage capacity
10:42<Samu>1/1 + 1/1 + 1/1 + 1/1 + 1/1 + 1/1 + 1/1 + 1/1 + 1/1 + 1/1 - £54,610/yr
10:42<Gustavo6046>andythenorth, idea: you can have the sprites flexible (both ends are the same, but the middle (with two wheels) is tiled as many times as an user given value V, which is also the size of the wagon.)
10:43<@Alberth>Samu: you need more drivers for more trains
10:43<supermop_>should p menu sprites change with time
10:43<Samu>1/2 + 1/2 + 1/2 + 1/2 + 1/2 - £30,130/yr
10:44<@Alberth>supermop_: sounds a bit confusing
10:44<supermop_>like, if a tram comes with a 2cc stripe on 1cc body in 1980, but in 1990 has 1 and 2 cc stripes on white body
10:45<supermop_>does it matter if the p-menu still shows the old 1980 style?
10:45<andythenorth>yes
10:45<andythenorth>if the sprites are deterministic, purchase menu should change
10:46<andythenorth>if they’re very random, then stable purchase menu sprite
10:46<supermop_>current only a couple have any real randomness
10:46<supermop_>most it is a progression of liveries
10:46<Gustavo6046>freenode has more wolves. I've got to do a listing of Wolves using IRC!
10:47<supermop_>and vehicles in preview get special livery
10:47<Samu>1/3 + 1/3 + 1/4 - £22,222/yr
10:47<@Alberth>blinking yellow neon would be nice
10:48<Samu>well so 1/5 + 1/5 is the ideal for running costs
10:48<Samu>i don't really know why
10:48<Samu>some math magic is happening here
10:49<Samu>it gets to a point that adding more wagons than a certain number isn't "worth it"
10:50<@Alberth>would transport more, and thus make more money, right?
10:50<Samu>less efficiently
10:50<supermop_>if i can stack sprites in the p menu then that would make things a bit easier
10:50<supermop_>i think i can
10:50<supermop_>why is a long train less efficient
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10:51<Samu>because math
10:51<supermop_>other than for accelleration
10:51<Samu>and i fail at math
10:51<supermop_>samu, i mean, why /should/ a long train be less effiecient
10:51<@Alberth>running cost increases faster with longer trains
10:52<supermop_>how does that make the game more fun
10:53<@Alberth>for some forms of playing it no doubt is
10:54<@Alberth>coop also plays with short trains mostly, afaik, although that is driven by efficiency of the network rather than by cost
10:55<Gustavo6046>0% reliability means infinite breaking?
10:55<@Alberth>no, just a lot
10:55<Gustavo6046>Oh ok
10:55<@Alberth>it's quite effective in taking down a network though :p
10:55<Gustavo6046>Yeah.
10:56<supermop_>Alberth: yeah, there is already a push for short trains in terms of signal/junction spacing and 'fun' of seeing more trains zip around
10:56<Gustavo6046>Anyway, I am still trying to find out how to find the closest depot.
10:56<@Alberth>in code?
10:56<supermop_>but that is 'balanced' by the larger capacity per dollar of long trains
10:56<@Alberth>just run A* from the depots to the train
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10:57<supermop_>why patch the game to make it so there is never a reason to have a long train
10:57<Gustavo6046>Yes
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10:57<Gustavo6046>I will run Djikstra instead, ok?
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10:57<Gustavo6046>I don't know A*
10:57<@Alberth>or do dijkstra from the train outwards until you reach a limit or find a depot
10:57<Gustavo6046>As in from a crashed vehicle
10:57<Gustavo6046>oh yes
10:58<Gustavo6046>crashed train.
10:58<Gustavo6046>Buses don't crash, right?
10:58<@Alberth>park one on a crossing :p
10:58<Gustavo6046>> CRASH_RV_UFO,
10:58<Gustavo6046>Do vehicles get abducted??
10:58<@Alberth>yep
10:58<Gustavo6046>awesome
10:58<supermop_>"ship 1 has crashed.. wrong phase of moon"
10:59<Gustavo6046>lol
10:59<@Alberth>not sure how though, I never saw it happen
10:59<andythenorth>tide is low
10:59<Gustavo6046>Me neither
10:59<andythenorth>ship sank
10:59<Gustavo6046>^
10:59<Samu>the reason to have a long train is because it's still cheaper than 2 trains, in the very early part of the game at least
10:59<supermop_>andythenorth: isn't run aground the opposite of sinking
10:59<supermop_>at least until the tide comes back
10:59<Samu>single line
10:59<andythenorth>not if you hole it, and the tide comes back in
10:59*andythenorth has seen it done
11:00<Gustavo6046>lol
11:00<supermop_>"Ship 2 has crashed on the partially submerged wreckage of ship 1"
11:00<Gustavo6046>lol
11:01<Gustavo6046>"Meteor has crashed: The fat Earth is in the way!"
11:01<supermop_>if you flood a track, do trains on it crash or just disappear?
11:01<supermop_>"Train 1 has sunk"
11:02<Gustavo6046>I think they crash
11:02<Gustavo6046>the water is such a heavy solid
11:02<supermop_>never tried it
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11:03<Samu>for 2 trains, it's needed two lines, costs are definitely much higher, however... this is the goal anyway, what's confusing me is that longer trains can at times have running costs higher than 2 shorter trains. The question still stands :(
11:05<andythenorth>they crash
11:05*andythenorth tried it
11:06<supermop_>can we patch that
11:06<supermop_>so they sink instead
11:06<andythenorth>Floods! At least 2 presumed dead after significant flooding!
11:06*andythenorth surprised that message exists
11:06<andythenorth>given that I had to use the canal hack to build trains on water
11:06<supermop_>that is the real message?
11:07<Samu>i need a math expert
11:07<supermop_>CS was a devious soul who loved to sink trains i guess
11:08<andythenorth>unless canals were retconned into TTD...
11:08<@Alberth>andy, make some land at height 0 with a dike around it
11:08<andythenorth>…I suspect we added that one
11:08<@Alberth>build train, then lower thedike
11:08<Gustavo6046>andythenorth, you can also dig a valley
11:08<Gustavo6046>put a train on a loop inside
11:08<andythenorth>so you can
11:08*andythenorth never does that
11:08<Gustavo6046>and then connect the valley to a nearby body of water
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11:09<Gustavo6046>RIP
11:09<Gustavo6046>Put water in an airport and crash everyone there
11:10<Gustavo6046>planes forever stuck or dead
11:10<supermop_>andythenorth: i did it in tto
11:10<supermop_>don't remember the flood msg
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11:14<Gustavo6046>Why did I associate the SimCity 2000 theme song with OpenTTD?
11:15<supermop_>idk but the tto themesong is awesome
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11:16<Gustavo6046>My favorite songs in OpenTTD are both Modern Motion: they're Green Hill and Rock Power
11:16<Gustavo6046>.
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11:46<supermop_>ugh
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11:47<supermop_>i dont understand why every sprite i saved from this computer yesterday and today now has the wrong pallet
11:47<supermop_>it looks correct, it says it has 256 colors
11:47<andythenorth>you can use photoshop automation to batch force a palette
11:48<supermop_>but nmlc is telling me "invalid palatte: invalid palette, does not contain 256 entries
11:49<supermop_>andythenorth: i am worried somehow my ttd palette on this PS got messed up,
11:49<supermop_>because i just re-exported all of these this morning to try to correct
11:49<andythenorth>how are you exporting?
11:49<andythenorth>is it dropping unused colours?
11:49<supermop_>"save for web"
11:49<supermop_>and slices
11:50<andythenorth>are the slice settings correct?
11:50<supermop_>set to 256, not auto
11:50<andythenorth>each slice can have its own setting...
11:50<supermop_>gahhhhhhhh
11:50<supermop_>shit
11:50<supermop_>ok
11:50<supermop_>thanks
11:50<andythenorth>I don’t bother with slices anymore
11:50<andythenorth>I used to, but too much faff
11:51<andythenorth>don’t even use layers anymore, just draw straight into pngs
11:51<supermop_>apparently slice 1 was set to something else
11:51<supermop_>the other 3 were fine
11:52<andythenorth>so I set out to reduce from 6 generations to 5, and from 2 variants to 1
11:52<Gustavo6046>Ok guys
11:52<andythenorth>so how do I now have 6 generations, and 3 variants? :P
11:53<@Alberth>saving 50% of the pixels, eh?
11:53<@Alberth>not quite working :p
11:53<Gustavo6046>So I did a basic Dijkstra to find the closest depot to a road tile: https://hastebin.com/herebenohe.nut
11:53<andythenorth>the intention was 50% reduction yes :P
11:53<Gustavo6046>But I forgot I was doing it for trains D:
11:54<andythenorth>fortunately Alberth $someone added ‘hide train'
11:54<andythenorth>in the buy menu
11:54<supermop_>ok only 44 pngs to fix
11:54<@Alberth>haha, andy :)
11:55<andythenorth>supermop_: batch :P
11:55<@Alberth>Gustavo6046: convert to road trains?
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11:56<Gustavo6046>Heh
11:56<Gustavo6046>I think this is better https://hastebin.com/ekuwitoder.nut
11:56<Gustavo6046>let me just convert to spaces
11:56<Gustavo6046>er
11:57<@Alberth>blank page
11:57<Gustavo6046>https://hastebin.com/lepahugulo.nut
11:57<@Alberth>probably too much javascript
11:57<Gustavo6046>Blank?
11:57<Gustavo6046>https://hastebin.com/raw/lepahugulo
11:57<Gustavo6046>^ raw
11:57<@Alberth>oh, lepa* thing works
11:57<Gustavo6046>other than a pre tag
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12:01<@Alberth>no idea what I am reading, but I'll take your word for it that it's dijkstra
12:01<Gustavo6046>It's a part of a Squirrel game script
12:02<@Alberth>yep .nut gave that away already :)
12:02<Gustavo6046>Okay.
12:04<@Alberth>oh, local functions, ok
12:04<supermop_>this grf takes a long time to compile
12:04<supermop_>few thousand pngs
12:04<@Alberth>have a coffee
12:05<supermop_>i can use the compile time to do real work that i am supposed to be doing
12:05<andythenorth>Horse is 1 minute compile
12:05<andythenorth>super painful
12:05<@Alberth>sounds like a good option too
12:06<Samu>supermop_: https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pvox2yw8f
12:06<@Alberth>so that's the real reason for saving pixels, eh?
12:06<andythenorth>it was the main driver for ‘delete’ yes
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12:07<supermop_>can't really thoroughly test grf at work though
12:07<Gustavo6046>ok
12:07<Gustavo6046>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pkitscrkv
12:07<Gustavo6046>ported from hastyebin
12:07<Gustavo6046>"hast yer bin!"
12:07<Samu>so, up to a train of with 7 wagons, it's always more efficient to have 1 train
12:07<Samu>with 8 wagons, that changes
12:08<Samu>it's better to have 2 trains
12:08<supermop_>ok
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12:08<supermop_>7 original wagons pls locomotive is only 4 tiles
12:08<supermop_>not really 'long'
12:09<supermop_>but if that is the style you want to play with, go nuts
12:09<Samu>i didn't finish that, it would continue up to 13
12:09<Samu>7 tiles
12:10<supermop_>i feel like a 4 tile long train is pretty short to penalize as too long
12:10<supermop_>i wonder if i should do mop generic train vehicles next
12:11<V453000>my ass is grass
12:11<Samu>ok, i will take a look at the formula
12:11<Samu>wondering where it fails
12:11<supermop_>Grass Ass Train Renewal Set
12:11<Samu>maybe try another divisor value
12:11<Samu>the default is 7
12:11<V453000>GATRS
12:11<V453000>n
12:11<Samu>maybe there's a correlation
12:11<V453000>doesn't work supermop
12:12<supermop_>GAToRS
12:12<@Alberth>grats
12:12<V453000>must be something like BEST_TRAIN_SET_4D_64BPP_MAX_ZOOM_BUY_NOW
12:12<supermop_>Train Operations
12:12<@Alberth>train maximalis
12:12<supermop_>Trainissimo
12:13<V453000>gay
12:13<@Alberth>train omg
12:14<@Alberth>but your suggestion could work
12:14<V453000>I already have a name for my set sorry :P
12:15<V453000>just felt like sharing the status of my mental state which may or may not be comparable to vegetal anus
12:15<@Alberth>with fewer underscores, I bet :p
12:15<V453000>yeah
12:15<supermop_>grass_ass.exe
12:15<V453000>4 letter self-recursive acronyms 4_LYFE
12:16<@Alberth>hmm, my notion of letter doesn't work for that
12:17<supermop_>lunch time
12:18<@Alberth>good way to spend compile time
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12:19<Gustavo6046>ATMunn, you on bro?
12:19<Gustavo6046>seems not.
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12:21<V453000>compile time my ass, I'm rendering for the last 18 hours ._. 8 more hours to go
12:21<V453000>& then again =D
12:22<Gustavo6046>lol
12:23<Gustavo6046>I feel bad for you guys
12:23<V453000>well the bright side is that I don't give a single unit of fecal matter, since I have many things to fix before next render batch :D
12:24<@Alberth>conisdered buying a full height 42" rack and fill it with computers? :p
12:24<V453000>nah
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12:25<V453000>it's not that common to have these big tasks
12:25<V453000>I could split it to multiple computers if I really wanted but eh
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12:25<V453000>it's one of the things which I haven't got solved yet in Blender, automatic multi-machine rendering
12:25<@Alberth>it'd be faster than than you can prepare for the next round :)
12:25<andythenorth>you need a patreon so you can pay for AWS servers
12:25<V453000>I can give each computer tasks manually but I can't split it automatically yet
12:25<andythenorth>think of the automation you could do
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12:26<V453000>the amount of shit that would be necessary for that currently isn't exactly easy
12:26<Gustavo6046>Now I need to find out all road tiles of a town with at least 1 empty orthogonal neighbors.
12:26<V453000>so since most tasks don't take that long (1080Ti is making sure most of them are pretty fast), it's not really worth making the whole thing more complicated
12:26<Gustavo6046>s/neighbors/neighbor
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12:27<Gustavo6046>To make matters worse, I just can't even find the starting point list of tiles in a town!
12:27<Gustavo6046>Unless if...
12:28<Gustavo6046>if I iterate from the seed tile until the boundaries. Neat!
12:28<@Alberth>sounds like the way to go
12:29<V453000>I knew you'd figure it out
12:29<Gustavo6046>Thanks.
12:29<Gustavo6046>:)
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12:34<@Alberth>might fail for town build at the slope of a mountain
12:34<@Alberth>*built
12:36<ATMunn>Gustavo6046: i am now :D
12:36<Gustavo6046>Hey :D
12:36<ATMunn>quick tip: i use simple_away in znc, so if you /whois me and im away then i probably am not online
12:37<supermop_>patreon seems pretty fair for newgrf making
12:38<supermop_>although i guess for recurring payments you'd start to feel really beholden to make more newgrfs and support old ones forever
12:39<supermop_>if you have a few people paying you are in an odd space where you might not bring in enough to enable you to really focus on making lots of new content, but people are expecting it
12:39<supermop_>maybe you should just sell NUTS t shirts, V453000
12:39<supermop_>someone likes nuts, they can buy a shirt
12:39<Gustavo6046>Guys
12:39<Gustavo6046>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/peqfcdhqk
12:40<Gustavo6046>like this?
12:40<V453000>wot :D
12:42<supermop_>i mean depending on the shirt, i might buy out of my love of mollusks regardless of newgrf
12:43<V453000>I think trying to monetize something you do in your free time is really dangerous
12:43<V453000>because now if I want to stop making BRIX, I just do
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12:44<V453000>having to force myself to do this madness would be totally different level of insanity, and would probably mean quality decrease
12:45<Gustavo6046>V45Σ000: sounds bad
12:45<V453000>exactly
12:45<andythenorth>I don’t want customers
12:45<andythenorth>so no attempt to monetise
12:45<V453000>yeah customer is the biggest enemy
12:46<V453000>also I would probably have to make something realistic to get wide enough audience
12:46<andythenorth>if I was 21 and short of money…maybe different
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12:47<@Alberth>even then, one should be able to explore things and fail
12:47<supermop_>that's the beauty of a t shirt
12:47<supermop_>you only have customers of the shirt
12:48<V453000>for me the ultimate excuse for myself why to dump hours into openttd stuff is that it allows me to just go wild on experimenting and trying to build a different system, and try to achieve different results than at work
12:48<supermop_>andythenorth: what about if you are 33 and short of money
12:48<V453000>it's super common that for example I recycle scripts for BRIX at work, or at least pieces of them
12:48<andythenorth>supermop_: maybe :P
12:48<andythenorth>any age and short of money
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12:48<V453000>moral of the story: andythenorth is a rich bastard
12:48<V453000>there we go
12:49<supermop_>though im more likely to monetize shapeways stuff or similar
12:49<supermop_>physical item with no ongoing commitment
12:49<andythenorth>on any of those things where you put your salary in and compare it with global salary
12:49<andythenorth>I am a rich bastard
12:49<supermop_>unless it kills someone i guess
12:49<andythenorth>and so are you V453000 :P
12:49<V453000>dam :P
12:49<supermop_>what about where i compare salary to wife's salary
12:49<supermop_>then i am poor
12:50<supermop_>:)
12:50<andythenorth>it’s an interesting place being in the top 5% or 10% (varies by year)
12:50<andythenorth>and then seeing that the 1% are anything up to 500x richer
12:50<V453000>haha
12:51<supermop_>in newyork, being in the 1% (which we are not) nationally, puts you barely at the middle
12:51<andythenorth>it’s a power law probably :P
12:51<V453000>well, they can't buy a newgrf even if they are 1000x richer :P
12:51<supermop_>1% in US is roughly over 250,000USD a year
12:51<andythenorth>something like https://i.ytimg.com/vi/zjQm83F0MhQ/maxresdefault.jpg
12:51<Gustavo6046>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyBp-MthaRE
12:52<andythenorth>10% have 90%
12:52<andythenorth>long tail
12:52<V453000>supermop_: that would be like 0.1% in czehc republic :)
12:52<supermop_>in NYC, 'nice' apartments are priced such that you really should be earning around $10M a year to afford them
12:52<V453000>that's pretty fucked up amount
12:53<supermop_>and the remarkably nice places cost between 25-100M to buy
12:53<supermop_>some pretty nice places are 10-20K a month
12:53<V453000>well all those prices seem just from a different universe to me
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12:54<supermop_>our apartment is a bit of a stretch for us at 2700 per month
12:54<andythenorth>wow
12:54<V453000>yeah just holy shit
12:54<andythenorth>our mortgage is less than that
12:54<andythenorth>substantially less, like 60% of that
12:54<andythenorth>3.5 bedroom house, 2.5 floors
12:55<supermop_>but basically nothing exists in manhattan under 2000 anymore (rent on my first east village apartment in a great location)
12:55<supermop_>andythenorth: this is for 500 square feet, no light, 1.5 bedrooms in chinatown
12:55<V453000>our mortgage is about 600eur per month for a super nice large flat at the edge of prague
12:55<Gustavo6046>Isn't doing game scripts for OpenTTD in Squirrel for pathfinding between towns a very small subset of programming?
12:55<supermop_>same apartmen in nolita or east village would now be over 4000
12:55<V453000>well, manhattan :)
12:56<supermop_>V453000: most of brooklyn is the same now
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12:56<supermop_>as is the close parts of queens
12:56<andythenorth>so in conclusion V453000, supermop would be a rich bastard
12:56<andythenorth>but lives in NYC so has no spare cash
12:56<V453000>:D yes basically
12:56<supermop_>yet i have 200 usd in my bank account right now
12:57<andythenorth>NYC :P
12:57<supermop_>and i owe wife 700 at the moment
12:57<andythenorth>wealth is relative to local costs
12:57<V453000>well if he lived under a bridge for 2 months he could have more than both of us combined? :P
12:57<V453000>think of the possibilities!
12:58<supermop_>andythenorth: problem in america is, leave the expensive city, generally you leave the decent salary too
12:59<andythenorth>such market economy
12:59<supermop_>even if you work in fracking and go out to middle of nowhere north dakota,
12:59<supermop_>a trailer in baken formation town will also be over 4000 a month
12:59<V453000>I guess that's everywhere the same :P
13:00<V453000>in Prague everything is also more expensive
13:00<V453000>compared to the 10 times smaller city I lived in
13:00<V453000>I was renting my flat for 400 usd a month there, just for comparison :P
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13:02<supermop_>V453000: tokyo would be much much cheaper for me to live in
13:02<supermop_>salary would be like 80% but rent maybe 55%
13:02<V453000>yeah also kind of on the opposite side of the shitball :D
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13:04<supermop_>at least i dont live in SF or silicon valley
13:05<supermop_>i would literally be living out of a van out there
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13:05<supermop_>although there are developers that make like 150k that live in their vans there
13:05<@Alberth>work 16/24, and sleep for the remaining 8 hours
13:07<supermop_>work 16, drive van to coast to surf the other 8
13:07<supermop_>time shifts to coincide with tides/swells
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13:07<V453000>if I didn't have a family I would probably sleep at the office
13:07<V453000>would give no shits
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13:08<V453000>not because more $, but because why bother
13:08<Gustavo6046>Did you mean... shifts? (jk)
13:08<Gustavo6046>more like
13:08<Gustavo6046>Did you mean... shifts?
13:08<Gustavo6046>lol
13:08<V453000>wot m8
13:08<supermop_>really i think oz is the only place i've been with good balance of pay, costs, quality of life
13:08<supermop_>still not that cheap but
13:08<supermop_>regular jobs pay well still there
13:09<supermop_>welder or developer can both live in same area
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13:16<supermop_>ok my p-menu sprites are way off
13:17<supermop_>though i did just guess at the offsets
13:17<Samu>supermop_: the divisor has influence, i tried to double the value of it, instead of 7, to 14
13:17<Samu>up to size 8, it's still more efficient to have 1 train rather than 2
13:18<Samu>i wonder about trains of size 13 now
13:19<Samu>if the divisor is directly related to the efficience curve
13:19<Samu>1/4 + 1/4 - £13,560/yr
13:20<Samu>1/8 - £11,300/yr
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13:52<andythenorth>I considered buying a fleet of vans instead of moving office
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13:53<andythenorth>supermop: getting evicted, should I move office in here? http://l7.alamy.com/zooms/fb5563cd45a24ad699e826c998251ad2/the-former-bristol-and-exeter-railway-station-cxcfn1.jpg
13:53<supermop_>the whole thing is to let?
13:53<supermop_>also how'd you get evicted?
13:53<andythenorth>new landlord
13:54<andythenorth>3 month notice on the lease
13:54<andythenorth>interiors https://i0.wp.com/www.bristoltemplequarter.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Bristol-and-Exeter-montage.jpg?ssl=1
13:54<andythenorth>pretty dark in winter
13:54<andythenorth>those photos are…adjusted imho
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13:59<supermop_>i can't fit all trucks on my monitor in buy menu
13:59<supermop_>needs 7 full height columns
14:05<andythenorth>someone try horse
14:05<andythenorth>it might be awful
14:05<andythenorth>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/iron-horse/push/LATEST/
14:06<andythenorth>also translations
14:06<andythenorth>“Small Box Car”, “Medium Box Car”, “Large Box Car"
14:06<andythenorth>can I substring those safely, so that “Box Car” isn’t repeated?
14:06<andythenorth>I’m not sure about order of size modifier in other languages
14:06<andythenorth>or it might be one compound word in something like German
14:11<frosch123>i don't think it is worth the trouble
14:11<frosch123>you cannot resuse the same "small" for other wagons
14:11<frosch123>while the noun is usually not affected by the adjective, the adjective is affected by the noun in languages with genders and cases
14:13<Wolf01>Quak
14:15<Gustavo6046>ok
14:15<Gustavo6046>time to test my AI guys
14:15<Gustavo6046>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pxgw20pmb
14:15<Gustavo6046>wish me luck
14:16<andythenorth>frosch123: thanks
14:16<andythenorth>I wrote them out so far as 3 repetitive strings per wagon type
14:16<andythenorth>my experience of i18n etc is that compound (concatenated) strings are problematic
14:18<andythenorth>good luck Gustavo6046 :P
14:19<Gustavo6046>Thanks :)
14:19<supermop_>294 trucks
14:19<Gustavo6046>lol
14:19<Gustavo6046>inb4 AI makes a TON of trucks
14:23<Gustavo6046>I forgot to define linkCities >_>
14:23<Gustavo6046>lmao
14:23<supermop_>andythenorth: this is why we need to be able to build trucks and trailers separately: https://imgur.com/a/d3Spi https://imgur.com/a/4CT79 https://imgur.com/a/lw8yJ
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14:27<supermop_>this doesn't even include the trams
14:27<andythenorth>supermop_: is that all one grf? :)
14:27<supermop_>of course
14:28<supermop_>x types of truck * y generations of truck * z types of power
14:29<andythenorth>how come hog is so much smaller :)
14:29<supermop_>*w lengths of truck
14:29<andythenorth>I thought I’d over-provided trucks :P
14:29<supermop_>hog has no electric or bi mode trucks
14:29<supermop_>hog also doesn't do rigid/semi/road train
14:30<andythenorth>nope :)
14:30<andythenorth>supermop_: check new Horse :P
14:30<andythenorth>many many wagons
14:30<supermop_>link
14:30<Gustavo6046>Hydrogen buses from 2025 onwards that increase speed, reliability and ratings, but are rather costly!
14:31<andythenorth>supermop_: about 150 wagons :P
14:31<supermop_>if i could just have 8 cab/tractors, and say 18 trailers, i could provide even more with only 26 items in the purchase list instead of 294
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14:33<supermop_>Gustavo6046: the 4th generation diesels have a callback whereby if you buy them late enough, they do not have visible exhaust pipes nor emit smoke
14:33<supermop_>andythenorth: link?
14:33<supermop_>oh i see it
14:34<andythenorth>supermop_: do they have a limited range because they’ve run out of AdBlue?
14:35<V453000>holy shit supermop_ :)
14:35<Gustavo6046>ooh
14:36<supermop_>andythenorth: i think mczapie tried once to implement some callback in his set where trucks have 100% reliability for a certain range then drop to like 0
14:36<supermop_>to simulate fuel
14:36<andythenorth>also try horse around 2030
14:36<supermop_>so they need to go to depot to 'refuel'
14:36<andythenorth>it’s designed to only make sense with ‘vehicles expire’ on
14:37<supermop_>one sec photos just came in that i need to PS and put on our website before a press package goes out
14:37<andythenorth>sure
14:42<Gustavo6046>If this doesn't compile...
14:43<Gustavo6046>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pzemvakgf
14:43<Gustavo6046>I don't want to know about the 654 line main!
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14:45<Gustavo6046>Or did I have to reopen the game..?
14:45<Gustavo6046>Let's see
14:45<Gustavo6046>oh.
14:46<Gustavo6046>oh nv
14:46<Gustavo6046>m
14:46<Gustavo6046>Thanks
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15:23<andythenorth>so
15:24<andythenorth>is it ‘small’ = 4/8, ‘medium’ = 6/8 and ‘large’ = 8/8?
15:24<andythenorth>or is it
15:24<andythenorth>‘small’ = always smallest version, ‘medium’ is the middle if there are 3 variants, ‘large’ is always the larges
15:25<andythenorth>sometimes there is 1 length of wagon, sometimes there are 2, sometimes there are 3
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>small is the smallest and large is the largest
15:40<andythenorth>and if there’s only one?
15:40<andythenorth>drop the size modifier?
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15:43<Samu>supermop_: https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pthoahebo
15:43<Samu>this is with a different divisor value
15:44<Samu>up to size 10
15:44<Samu>it's better to have 1 train
15:47<Gustavo6046>Why does my AI do nothing? Not even a log??
15:50<Gustavo6046>oh lmao
15:50<Gustavo6046>I paused
15:50<Gustavo6046>-_-
15:52<Samu>there are 2 supermops
15:52<supermop_>usually are
15:52<ST2>Samu: more tabaco man ^^
15:53<supermop_>unless computer at home is asleep
15:53<supermop_>which... seems like it should be?
15:57<Gustavo6046>supermop_, does rand even exist? I've tried rand() and math.rand() and Math.rand()!
15:58<Samu>what does feel better? efficient up to 7/13 or 10/13?
15:59<Gustavo6046>Samu, whichever has the largest efficiency:cost ratio.
15:59<Gustavo6046>(To the left side ;))
15:59<supermop_>Gustavo6046: i have no ide what you are talking about
15:59<Gustavo6046>The rand() function in Squirrel, sorry
15:59<Gustavo6046>I can't access it
15:59<Gustavo6046>"No such index"
15:59<Gustavo6046>Even if I prefix with ::
16:00<Samu>i might adjust the formula to divisor * 2 instead if 10/13 feels better, costs will also decrease overall
16:02<Samu>supermop_: ?
16:02<supermop_>idk
16:02<frosch123>Gustavo6046: http://noai.openttd.org/api/trunk/classAIBase.html
16:02<ST2>Gustavo6046: I got it with random_var = rand() % 4;
16:02<ST2>if about OpenTTD, check ../core/random_func.hpp
16:03<supermop_>my opinion is that costs should increment per wagon independent of loco type or train length
16:03<Gustavo6046>Thanks
16:03<ST2>or something like that
16:03<supermop_>but if you enjoy a play style with a different logic behind the costs, then you should optimize it for what is most fun for you
16:05<Samu>hmm like how, supermop
16:05<Samu>1 wagon £100 per wagon , 2 wagons £200 per wagon, making it £400, like that?
16:07<Samu>:(
16:08<Gustavo6046>back
16:08<Gustavo6046>Thank you!
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16:09<supermop_>no, i mean, my style would be that every wagon costs 100, no matter what
16:09<supermop_>but if you want a different style, base it on what is most fun for you
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16:10<Samu>ah, i see, well i had a similar approach with v3 formula, cost per wagon was a fixed value, but it was still based on loco
16:11<Samu>it felt... easy
16:12<andythenorth>so how do I get a 4th generation of these? :) http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8697/horsey_tank_attack.png
16:12<andythenorth>can’t use contrasting vertical stripes
16:12<andythenorth>:P
16:15<V453000>looks awesome, but I must say they are kind of too similar imo
16:15<V453000>4th gen = moar shiny? :P
16:15<V453000>more white?
16:22<andythenorth>dunno
16:22<supermop_>newer = less greeble
16:22<andythenorth>50% company colour?
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>you need to make the old generations look actually old...
16:22<supermop_>what eddi said
16:23<supermop_>cc is also good way to look newer
16:23<andythenorth>when 3 of the generations are 1960, 1990 and 2020 that’s hard
16:23<andythenorth>RL train wagons look same for last 50 years
16:23<V453000>:D
16:23<V453000>is why fuck RL :P
16:23<andythenorth>I’m still 50:50 on going to 2020
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think that is actually true
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>trains changed a lot from 1960 to 1990
16:24<andythenorth>it causes real problems making gen 5 and 6 look different
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>and for 2020 you can make your creativity run wild
16:25<supermop_>animated OLED advert boards on the sides of tankers
16:25<andythenorth>I prefer the creativity of synthesising 10 RL examples into chibi game art :P
16:25<andythenorth>inventing ‘anything you like’ lacks any constraint
16:26<andythenorth>it’s not a creative problem, it’s just randomised expression
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>your problem is that every decade had unique design elements, but you're not using any of them...
16:27<andythenorth>2020 http://www.revolutiontrains.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/DSCN2262.jpg
16:27<andythenorth>1960 http://www.anticsonline.co.uk/l.aspx?k=10752
16:27<andythenorth>what’s different? o_O
16:28<andythenorth>97% identical
16:28<V453000>well at least one is shiny :P
16:28<V453000>gives modern feel, is enough
16:29<Eddi|zuHause>nothing says "greener freight" more than diesel fuel?
16:29<andythenorth>it is true
16:29<Eddi|zuHause>also, that second image doesn't load
16:30<supermop_>andythenorth: the difference is in graphic design in some degree
16:30<supermop_>my 60s ish and 90s ish box truck trailers are the same shape, but with different design of 2cc stripe
16:31<andythenorth>1990 image http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/img/s1/v19/p601714485-3.jpg
16:32<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: alternate 1960 http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/img/s12/v187/p1027026808-3.jpg
16:32<andythenorth>same style
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>well, those look all completely different
16:33<andythenorth>the salient differences being…?
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>the painting style...
16:33<andythenorth>but in the gestalt?
16:33<andythenorth>same silhouette
16:34<andythenorth>shinier…and high contrast vertical lines :P http://pnemickey.prestonstation.org.uk/gallery/albums/MikesFirstGallery/13dec2010/vtg-wagon.jpg
16:34<Gustavo6046>Why don't arrays have a filter index? :/
16:34<andythenorth>V453000: ^^
16:35<Gustavo6046>nv
16:35<Gustavo6046>m
16:35<Gustavo6046>Nevermind.
16:35<V453000>shiny as fuck
16:35<V453000>good
16:35<V453000>just paint something with some high brigtness spots and you win
16:36<andythenorth>not sure
16:36<V453000>what are you sure about? :)
16:36<V453000>:P
16:37<andythenorth>frosch couldn’t tell hopper and dump cars apart http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8699/horse_stuff.png
16:37<andythenorth>which was useful feedback
16:37<andythenorth>not sure shiny spots on same silhouette will be enough
16:38<V453000>some of them are quite similar yeah
16:39<andythenorth>I can fix those
16:39<V453000>the second medium hopper car is very similar to dumps, basically because of vertical lines and seemingly square silhouette
16:39<andythenorth>more slopey, more grey on hoppers
16:39<andythenorth>use CC inside dump cars, like original TTD sprite
16:39<andythenorth>basically, original TTD sprite, but new
16:40<V453000>maybe make the dump cars have the top 1px margin grayscale?
16:40<andythenorth>nah, they’re like the ore cars in original
16:40<andythenorth>somehow mission has changed to ‘remake original wagons, but refittable’
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16:40<andythenorth>dunno how that happened :P
16:40<V453000>that's fine but changing this doesn't change that
16:41<V453000>the style of the vertical lines is kept, top line won't break that
16:41<andythenorth>adding grey will just confuse with hoppers no?
16:41<V453000>I think it would help the difference between the wagons, top being CC vs bottom being CC
16:41<V453000>top is bright, bottom not
16:41<andythenorth>I think some people only see colour, not where it is
16:41<andythenorth>dunno can try
16:42<V453000>point is fair though
16:42<andythenorth>anyway, tank wagons are bigger problem
16:42<andythenorth>if I can’t get gen 6 tank wagon, then I’m scrapping all gen 6 in horse
16:42<V453000>maybe remove vertical lines from hoppers
16:42<andythenorth>saves drawing like 36 wagons and 6 engines
16:42<V453000>almost entirely
16:42<V453000>:D
16:42<V453000>you can
16:42*andythenorth will find logs where V453000 said add lines :P
16:43<V453000>just make it look clean, elegant and modern
16:43<V453000>andythenorth: sure, they are great, but if you already have them on dumps, it's fine
16:43<andythenorth>hoppers need to be more ‘slopey'
16:43<V453000>if it's noisy then hoppers won't need them
16:44<andythenorth>anyway, tank cars wtf
16:44<V453000>XD
16:44<andythenorth>I can only think to paint gen 6 50% company colour
16:44<andythenorth>like cola wagon in toyland
16:44<andythenorth>which might look shit when the other 50% is recoloured to cargo, but eh
16:45<Wolf01>Meh, left again the scroll cursor detached from the bottom... "why don't they talk so much today?"
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16:46<V453000>can try stripes or something
16:46<V453000>NUTS has diagonal stripes which I can recommend against doing :D
16:47<andythenorth>diagonals always look bad
16:47<andythenorth>even in original
16:47<andythenorth>trying to avoid diagonals :P
16:48<supermop_>step up or step down stripe can work
16:48<Wolf01>And now forgot TF in fast forward while I was reading the chat log
16:48<Samu>hi Wolf01
16:49<Wolf01>Yes, hi
16:50<andythenorth>gen 5, gen 6 with CC http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8700/horse_tank_6.png
16:50<andythenorth>oil, chemicals, petrol, rubber cargos
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16:53<andythenorth>identical silhouette
16:55<andythenorth>more livery difference: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8701/horse_tank_6_2.png
16:55<supermop_>Wolf01: my purchase menu is too long
16:56<Wolf01>:(
16:56<Wolf01>Is there a valid reason to be so long?
16:56<Wolf01>Could you save space by using refits?
16:57<supermop_>3 power types * 9 truck types * 3 length types
16:57<supermop_>* number of generations available at any given time
16:57<andythenorth>reduce length types
16:58<andythenorth>says person adding 3 wagon lengths to Horse :(
16:59<supermop_>road train is optional by param
16:59<V453000>maybe have the CC at the top ? :)
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17:00<V453000>this kind of looks like it's water inside :)
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17:02<andythenorth>I think it’s kind of cool
17:02<andythenorth>but not usable
17:04<andythenorth>reminds me of this awesome doom texture http://i.imgur.com/fjzaofS.png
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17:07<V453000>so metal
17:10<andythenorth>who plays past 2010 anyway? :P
17:10<Wolf01>I usually do, it's right the time to upgrade the steam trains to diesel ones
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17:14<V453000>XD
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17:16<Wolf01>http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1174319330
17:17<Wolf01>http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1174323088
17:17<Wolf01>Some of my work for today
17:18<andythenorth>very detailed eh :)
17:18<V453000>that's not a factory
17:19<Wolf01>http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1174322198
17:19<V453000>'meh'
17:22<andythenorth>vertical stripes then? :P http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8702/horse_tank_6_3.png
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17:22<Wolf01>Diamond pattern?
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17:24<andythenorth>maybe :P
17:24<Wolf01>https://www.lionelsupport.com/products/catalogs/cat-2003-c-1/images/6-26138-nesquik-355.jpg definitely this
17:25<andythenorth>that’s edibles tank car :)
17:25<andythenorth>different
17:25<V453000>not sure andy
17:25<V453000>do something :)
17:25<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8688/horse_edible_tanks_3.png
17:25<andythenorth>V453000: vertical lines for now I reckon
17:26<andythenorth>whole set is just vertical stripes :P
17:26<andythenorth>all of grf
17:26<andythenorth>one trick pony :P
17:26<V453000>:D one trick horse
17:27<andythenorth>isn’t it
17:29<Wolf01>http://www.sa-transport.co.za/train_modellers/tankers/xbj-10_cement-tanker_george_01_ra06.JPG looks like it's already wrecked
17:29<V453000>horse sat on it
17:30<andythenorth>frosch wanted me to add that
17:30<andythenorth>it’s valid for tropic roster
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17:30<V453000>iz
17:30<Wolf01>Do a easter egg "octan" livery
17:30<V453000>if you can draw it and make it look good, it's interesting for sure
17:34<Wolf01>The quantity of F stuff which comes out when looking for trains or freight stuff is impressive
17:36<supermop_>+1 for octan
17:37<Wolf01>https://i.pinimg.com/736x/55/4f/83/554f83be4c13741e4c4bbe19fd03ed0a--train-car-lego-trains.jpg :D
17:42<Samu>i'm so inclined to change from divisor to divisor * 2
17:43<Samu>seems to make more sense
17:43<V453000>Wolf01: probably just personalized search :P
17:43<Samu>anyway, thx for coming up with the efficiency suggestion supermop
17:44<V453000>also, good night
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17:50<Samu>and i've beem saying it for days already, guess it's time for v5
17:50<Samu>been*
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18:03<andythenorth>bye
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18:06<Samu>we're on r27927, right?
18:10<Gustavo6046>I'm still trying to make my Dijkstra algorithm fast.
18:11<Gustavo6046>It searches for 7050 tiles...
18:12<Gustavo6046>I should make the radius 170 instead of 300, right?
18:12<Gustavo6046>Yeah, not bad.
18:12<Gustavo6046>150.
18:13<Samu>i like to test ais, it's just that i'm focused on something else at the moment
18:15<Samu>also, my system nearly died from so much testing
18:15<Samu>it surprises it's still working fine after having so much problems with it last year
18:17<Samu>psu is still doing weird clicky noises for 2 years straigth
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18:36<Samu>v5 is posted
18:36<Samu>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=75982#p1193241
18:36<Samu>for whoever cares lol
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18:43<Samu>meh, i don't like one thing already, grr
18:43<Samu>that divisor range needs to change :(
18:44<Samu>1-64 to 1-128 or so
18:51<Samu>while i'm at it, why not let it all the way up to 255
18:51<Samu>fits inside UINT8_MAX, right?
18:59<Eddi|zuHause>Gustavo6046: you know there are pathfinder libs available?
18:59<Gustavo6046>I do
18:59<Gustavo6046>but I want to roll out my own
18:59<Gustavo6046>simple (but not really time efficient) one
18:59<Eddi|zuHause>ah, you developed a case of NIH
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19:06<Gustavo6046>Of what?
19:06<Gustavo6046>._.
19:07<Gustavo6046>I wanted to try one myself
19:07<Gustavo6046>I did one in Java already
19:07<Gustavo6046>it's fun
19:17<Samu>v6 is out :( https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=75982#p1193241
19:17<Samu>sorry
19:17<Gustavo6046>:P
19:17<Samu>i really should have tested v5 better
19:21<Samu>divisor = (VEHICLE_LENGTH << 5) * 2 * _settings_game.vehicle.max_train_length; // Auto
19:21<Samu>divisor = (VEHICLE_LENGTH << 5) * _settings_game.vehicle.train_extra_runcost_divisor; // not Auto
19:21<Samu>mucho better
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20:02<Eddi|zuHause>"The new express train from Göteborg to Stockholm is now called 'Trainy McTrainface'"
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20:17<Gustavo6046>Swedish detected.
20:17<Gustavo6046>I'm from Brazil.
20:17-!-Flygon [~Flygon@124-148-158-195.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #openttd
20:17-!-Flygon is "Flygon" on #openttd
20:21<Wolf01>'night
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20:35-!-Mahjong is "realname" on #openttd # #ohnx
20:35<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not swedish, btw.
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22:27-!-tokai|noir is "Christian Rosentreter" on #openttd
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---Logclosed Fri Oct 20 00:00:47 2017